did Sammael really think he had a cease-fire with Rand?

[ROB_88]

in LoC we see Sammael send a messager to Rand asking for a truce. rand says no and then the messager dies, and the way he dies apparently tells him the answer

 

a few chapters later we see him telling Graendal that he got a yes, Rand will not attack him and he will not attack Rand.

 

it's very possible that he was lying, but i don't really see what good that would do.

and it is also possible that he's an idiot and misread the death of the messenger and he really believes it.

 

so what is it?

[Mashiara Sedai]

Sammael was indeed lying about his cease-fire.  He uses this lie very effectively with Graendal.  The scene when he tells her about his alliance with Rand starts from Graendal's POV.  She is sure she knows him down to his bones and is so startled by his attitude that she assumes he is telling the truth.  After she leaves it switches to Sammael’s POV and he drops the self-assured act immediately.  It’s pretty obvious he was just toying with Graendal.  The whole point of it was to get Graendal on his side and to get information out of her about her truce with Demandred and Masaana.

 

~Mashiara

 

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah he was definitely lying, pretty sure we had a PoV from him after that and he revealed he was lying then. I think

[Al Thor93]

Sammael was indeed lying about his cease-fire.  He uses this lie very effectively with Graendal.

 

Completely agree. Sammael wasn't dumb by any means. But RJ was able to show that he still was human if not totally, because he made the mistake of leaving while Rand invaded and then having to come back, put him at a disadvantage.

[Mr. Micawber]

Well, when his boss is the Father of Lies, you should probably be assuming he's lying until proven truthful.

[Al Thor93]

Well, when his boss is the Father of Lies, you should probably be assuming he's lying until proven truthful.

That's a very good assumption and is definately not a lie. :)

[3josh]

I agree that Sammael just plain lying makes the most sense in terms of the characters and general plot. Unfortunately I think there's strong evidence that Sammael does think Rand agreed.

 

The Terms

The truce from LoC chapt 16:

 

"pledge not to move east beyond the Plains of Maredo, nor further north than Lugard in the east or Jehannah in the west."

 

This is basically Illyan and Altara - and parts of Murandy, Ghealdan, and probably Amadicia.

 

The Setting

So this means Sammael is probably going to work on Altara soonish. After all the queen of Altara controls very little. But he can't move his forces even if he thinks Rand did agree until that 'hammer' of an army goes somewhere else. That doesn't mean he won't start doing ground work with darkfriends to do various things - including looking for the cache of *angreal.

 

And in ACoS chap 15 he pops over to Ebou Dar (the capital of Altara) which Sammael probably considers 'his' even if he hasn't bothered to actually conquer it yet.

 

The Evidence

When he hears of Mat in his claimed area he seemed 'taken aback' and mutters something about betrayal.

 

So who whould one of the Forsaken worry about betrayal with? Obviously only someone he can't control/kill directly. That would include:

- Other 'Chosen'

- the DO

- Rand

 

Of them - the only one that really fits with seeing Mat is of course Rand (the DO being a distant but interesting second).

 

In other words - if Sammael thinks he has an agreement for Altara, then he sees that apparently Rand sent Mat into the capital to interfere in some way - then the betrayal line fits pretty well. (Yes - Rand did not send Mat, but Sammael would probably assume that).

 

So What?

Even if Samael thinks they do have a truce he's still plotting against Rand with Sevanna at least a little. Though it seems he kept his contact fairly minimal until after he saw Mat. I'm curious if seeing Mat caused him to get more serious about his defenses though.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

-3j

[yoniy0]

The betrayal he talks of is probably that Mat escaped his assassination attempt (i.e., Sammael suspects betrayal), or perhaps that Mat wasn't with the forces massing near Illian. Regardless, Sammael knows full well that there never was a truce, and eventually Graendal finds that out as well. She had to before this part:

As if reading her thoughts, he said, "You're tied to me as tightly as my belt, Graendal." A gateway opened, revealing his private rooms in Illian. "The truth doesn't matter anymore, if it ever has. You rise with me, or fall with me. The Great Lord rewards success, and he's never cared how it was achieved."

[3josh]

Hmm - your take on the betrayal doesn't ring true to me. Plenty of people have tried to kill Mat and failed (he is ta'veren after all). It seems unlikely that a failure of an underling assigned the task would cause him to think they had betrayed him. And even if for some odd reason it did, it should piss him off, not have him surprised/confused/upset. He expects obedience from anyone 'below' him and should have a much different reaction. To me, his reaction only fits for someone above or equal to him on his side, or an agreement with someone on the 'other side'. If that's the case, seeing Mat just alive would only fit if he had asked another Chosen to kill him as part of a deal - or the DO said not to worry about Mat. That would be interesting, but seems less likely than my original interpretation.

 

For your quote ACoS40 that has always seemed pretty clearly about Sammael saying he would be Nae'blis. I can dig up some quotes to support that - the scene where the Watcher spy's on them after meeting with the Shaido makes it pretty clear Graendal thinks Sammael has been set above her and that's why she's going along with his plans.

 

-3j

[yoniy0]

Yeah, okay, I guess you're right about Mat being alive, but Sammael's being taken aback by his presence in Ebou Dar can easily be explained by his thinking he knew what Mat was doing and where he was (that was, leading the attack on Illian, a matter in which Sammael probably took some interest). Whoever gave him this information, betrayal may well be on his mind when he finds out it was faulty.

 

And regarding the other thing, by ACoS40 Graendal already knew that Rand's sent his forces to attack Sammael, therefore there was never any truce (LTT is hardly the kind of man to break a truce, and she knows Rand retained that 'naiveté'). However, how would she know for certain Sammael wasn't promised the position of Na'eblis? Why would he admit to it if she didn't know?

[Luckers]

Yeah, okay, I guess you're right about Mat being alive, but Sammael's being taken aback by his presence in Ebou Dar can easily be explained by his thinking he knew what Mat was doing and where he was (that was, leading the attack on Illian, a matter in which Sammael probably took some interest). Whoever gave him this information, betrayal may well be on his mind when he finds out it was faulty.

 

And regarding the other thing, by ACoS40 Graendal already knew that Rand's sent his forces to attack Sammael, therefore there was never any truce (LTT is hardly the kind of man to break a truce, and she knows Rand retained that 'naiveté'). However, how would she know for certain Sammael wasn't promised the position of Na'eblis? Why would he admit to it if she didn't know?

 

How do we know he wasn't promised that position? Even Moridin considers it in his roll of Watcher.

 

Interesting side note here--what if it was the Dark One who messed with Sammael's messenger?

[yoniy0]

How do we know he wasn't promised that position? Even Moridin considers it in his roll of Watcher.

Moridin does consider it, but he notes that it's most likely false. However, we know that the DO made both Graendal and Demandred believe they might win that position in LoC. Nothing to say he wasn't playing the same game with Sammael, even though he apparently didn't with Semirhage.

[3josh]

Yeah, okay, I guess you're right about Mat being alive, but Sammael's being taken aback by his presence in Ebou Dar can easily be explained by his thinking he knew what Mat was doing and where he was (that was, leading the attack on Illian, a matter in which Sammael probably took some interest). Whoever gave him this information, betrayal may well be on his mind when he finds out it was faulty.

 

And regarding the other thing, by ACoS40 Graendal already knew that Rand's sent his forces to attack Sammael, therefore there was never any truce (LTT is hardly the kind of man to break a truce, and she knows Rand retained that 'naiveté'). However, how would she know for certain Sammael wasn't promised the position of Na'eblis? Why would he admit to it if she didn't know?

 

 

I think you may be stretching things with simple surprise or misinformation causing Sammael's reaction. I know he's not exactly a cool customer with other Chosen - but that was a significant slip in front of an underling. It seems so both in terms of plot, and the fact that RJ would bother writing in such an odd reaction in the first place (always an alternative perspective). After all - he could see Mat and be totally shocked and dismayed because some DF had promised to give him a really cool hat - and instead there it is on Mat's head! Obviously a deep betrayal ;).

 

As for the second - I can almost see what you are saying. But on the other hand it should be so obvious (and for long enough) that there is either no truce or it's been broken that there's no reason to even talk about it.

 

Aside from that - the important thing is the linking between Graendal being 'tied' to Sammael and whatever the 'truth' might be. To me that pretty clearly indicates that what he's talking about is what has caused her to obey Sammael. In other words - her belief that he's Na'eblis.

 

 

-3j

[yoniy0]

No, she obeyed him under the threat of his giving Rand her location, since the 'truce' included "not helping should Rand pursue other Chosen", which is an obvious threat to help Rand along. Sure, he piled being Nae'blis on top of that, but that was the basic reason she got knocked off her game. She wasn't obeying him as Nae'blis anyways, just "preparing for the day that he would be named as such." She would know if a Nae'blis were chosen, and s/he needn't threaten her to get her cooperation (well, everything they do is under some kind of threat, but those guys fear their boss much more than they do their peers).

[Byzantine279]

It is possible that another Forsaken messed with the messanger to reverse the yes and no signals. I forget, but was Moridin (the Watcher) around by that point? Because that seems to be the kind of thing he would do, esp since he later helped Rand kill Sammael for his own purposes.

[3josh]

No, she obeyed him under the threat of his giving Rand her location, since the 'truce' included "not helping should Rand pursue other Chosen", which is an obvious threat to help Rand along. Sure, he piled being Nae'blis on top of that, but that was the basic reason she got knocked off her game. She wasn't obeying him as Nae'blis anyways, just "preparing for the day that he would be named as such." She would know if a Nae'blis were chosen, and s/he needn't threaten her to get her cooperation (well, everything they do is under some kind of threat, but those guys fear their boss much more than they do their peers).

 

Nah - if she was too worried about that she could move. The threat of Rand was a part of why she was helping him, but I don't think it was as significant as the other. After all, part of what she was doing was helping Sammael do things that would potentially break any truce. I think the possibility of the truce unsettled Graendal because it took away her best 'lever' to manipulate Sammael and turned everything around while she was trying to get Sammael to kill Rand. She was certainly afraid of Rand, but not so much because she thought Sammael would 'feed' her to him. Besides, in the one scene where Sammael comes close to pushing her to far he doesn't bring her back into line by talking about Rand - he says:

“If you call me that again, I will kill you.” Her voice held even less expression than her face. She meant it. ...

Sammael met her stare with one just as hard. “Remember who will be Nae’blis, Graendal,” he said, and stepped through his gateway.

Nae’blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that.

 

One could argue that only indicates what Sammael thinks if motivating her and Ishy's take on the scene. She could be motivated by just wanting to use Rand and Sammael to kill some of the other Chosen. Graendal is supposed to be intelligent and complex after all. Also her motivations aren't necessarily static, so what might be her primary motivation at the start (where her POV is) don't need to be the same as in these later chapters. But I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree about what her primary motivation is.

 

 

It is possible that another Forsaken messed with the messanger to reverse the yes and no signals. I forget, but was Moridin (the Watcher) around by that point? Because that seems to be the kind of thing he would do, esp since he later helped Rand kill Sammael for his own purposes.

 

I certainly like Moridin for motive, but it's pretty unclear when he got his new body. The first time we see him is well after the truce messenger - however he already has saa which seems to indicate a lot of use of the TP. I would think that would mean he's been around doing something with it. More importantly, his first POV seems to indicate little knowledge of any truce:

 

An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true.

 

Another take on who might have arranged it:

Interesting side note here--what if it was the Dark One who messed with Sammael's messenger?

 

I consider this to be the most interesting possibility. Side note - there should be a RJ's Razor rule: The most interesting answer is likely the correct one ;)

 

Anyway, if we consider that Sammael thinks he has a truce and he's not lying, we have to consider what he would have done if he got a negative answer. The consensus out there seems to be that truth/lie doesn't really matter because he would have done the same thing either way - tell Graendal he has a truce and do some minor scheming with the Shado.

 

Possible, but not sure I buy it. The same person Rand says 'thinks in straight lines' and was sending hoards of trollocs, darkfriends and various shadowspawn after him in the Stone and various times in the waste? The same person that apparently traveled to the battle outside Cairhien to send lightning bolts and fire at Rand? He offers a truce (to someone he hates) and gets it thrown back in his face - and that same person bites down his anger and stops all frontal attacks just because he wants to make Graendal think he has a truce?

 

Maybe - but remember what Graendal (who Rand seems to think can outsmart everyone) was planning - to manipulate Sammael into killing Rand. We know the DO doesn't want that, and this truce could be an easy way to spike that path into the future. This should be possible for the DO to arrange, but it would be trivial if the weave on the messenger was actually made with the TP (though I find it somewhat unlikely Sammael would use the TP for this, it would tie things up nicely).

 

I know someone is going to point out that Sammael's POV show he's seen through part of what Graendal is doing (or thinks he has) - but it's possible that he's only thinking as clearly as he does because he thinks he may have a truce. And even with it he has to force the smile because he would rather fight Rand/LTT directly.

 

I'm not sure how much of this I believe or even how important it is plot-wise - but that scene (LoC C16) has made me spin my gears reinterpreting a few things.

 

-3j

[yoniy0]

It's important to remember that Sammael (if it was him, I don't think we know that for certain) sent trollocs to the Stone when the logical step for Rand (according to Moiraine) was to move on Illian. Sammael would definitely expect that Rand will. And then, the whole thing with attacking him during TFoH was actually bait -- Rand was to get mad and go after Sammael in Illian, only he'd find Rahvin, Graendal and Lanfear waiting for him there as well, Linked. Sammael isn't really a simpleton -- or at least we have no indication of that.

 

Also, if we go with my take on events, by the time Graendal actively helps Sammael with something that obviously breaks the truce, she knows that there's no truce to begin with. That's not to say you're wrong (though I still think you are ), just that her helping him feeding Rand to the Shaido doesn't conflict with my idea.