Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Sharaman]

Not all the Chosen are comfortable with TAR.

It has little to do with channeling strength - it's a different gift.

Mesaana needs ter'angreal to even enter TAR (except in the flesh as every channeler can). 

Egwene's a natural with a very rare talent.

She has had an enormous amount of practice, not just with the WO but on her own, dreaming, training and just generally fooling around in TAR.

She certainly has a relative advantage against Mesaana there.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Also Nynaeve outsmarted Moghedien(spelling) in T'A'R. If I remember she considered herself skilled in T'A'R and Nynaeve done for her at the second attempt in there. Now Nynaeve isn't any where near as skilled as Egwene in the world of dreams. So if Moggy considers herself skilled in T'A'R she must be at least competent amongst the forsaken in it and I don't ever remember Mesaana being mentioned as skilled in there.

So Nynaeve is nowhere near Egwene in skill and Moggy must be as good as or better than Mesaana in skill in T'A'R. Also consider when Moggy is thinking about her talents in this area she doesn't compare herself to Mesaana but Lanfear.

So I reckon it would be at least an even match but more than likely Egwene would have the advantage.

[Majsju]

Moghedien considered herself the most skilled of the forsaken in T'A'R, even more skilled than Lanfear. Of course, ones opinion of themselves is not perfect evidence, but you do not toss something like that out willy nilly.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yes even if she isn't as good as Lanfear she must be close to her in skill unless she completely deluding herself and I don't she would do that. She's realistic and you've got to be realisitc.

Also Lanfear thinks highly of herself in this regard so its safe to think she is skilled.

[Random Man]

Yes even if she isn't as good as Lanfear she must be close to her in skill unless she completely deluding herself and I don't she would do that. She's realistic and you've got to be realisitc.

Also Lanfear thinks highly of herself in this regard so its safe to think she is skilled.

Messy deludes herself quite frequently, as evidenced by the grandiose boast she made to Moridin in TGS prologue. She also, apparently, thought it would be simple enough to get Egwene deposed if she just informed Sheriam of what she wanted. I would put her as reasonably skilled in t'a'r in relation to Lanfear and Moghedien for lack of evidence, and she's probably a little bit stronger in the Power than Egwene. Messy's greatest weakness in any confrontation with Egwene, whether it be in t'a'r or in the waking world, is going to be her propensity to underestimate Egwene and overestimate her own abilities. And that's likely how Egwene will end up taking her down -- she'll think up something Messy won't be expecting (much like Nynaeve and Moghedien in TFoH; why would Moghedien expect an a'dam to materialize around her?)

[Durinax]

Yes even if she isn't as good as Lanfear she must be close to her in skill unless she completely deluding herself and I don't she would do that. She's realistic and you've got to be realisitc.

Also Lanfear thinks highly of herself in this regard so its safe to think she is skilled.

Messy deludes herself quite frequently, as evidenced by the grandiose boast she made to Moridin in TGS prologue. She also, apparently, thought it would be simple enough to get Egwene deposed if she just informed Sheriam of what she wanted. I would put her as reasonably skilled in t'a'r in relation to Lanfear and Moghedien for lack of evidence, and she's probably a little bit stronger in the Power than Egwene. Messy's greatest weakness in any confrontation with Egwene, whether it be in t'a'r or in the waking world, is going to be her propensity to underestimate Egwene and overestimate her own abilities. And that's likely how Egwene will end up taking her down -- she'll think up something Messy won't be expecting (much like Nynaeve and Moghedien in TFoH; why would Moghedien expect an a'dam to materialize around her?)

I dont think Messy will underestimate egwene, because since she likely is still in the tower then she will be closely studying Egwene, and since she thinks she is a great researcher will do everythign possible to find out egwenes capabilities and will have a very accurate idea of her

[Owayn The Traveller]

Have we ever even heard or seen any connections between T'A'R and Mesaana?

Ravhin-yes

Asmodean-yes

Demandred-yes

Mogiedean-yes

Sammael-uncertain

Semerihage-leaning to no

Moridin-yes

aginor-think so

aran'gar-doubt it

Be'lal-think so

lanfear-hell ya

Mesaana-pretty certain no mention of her capabilties there and no sight of her there

[Random Man]

Yes even if she isn't as good as Lanfear she must be close to her in skill unless she completely deluding herself and I don't she would do that. She's realistic and you've got to be realisitc.

Also Lanfear thinks highly of herself in this regard so its safe to think she is skilled.

Messy deludes herself quite frequently, as evidenced by the grandiose boast she made to Moridin in TGS prologue. She also, apparently, thought it would be simple enough to get Egwene deposed if she just informed Sheriam of what she wanted. I would put her as reasonably skilled in t'a'r in relation to Lanfear and Moghedien for lack of evidence, and she's probably a little bit stronger in the Power than Egwene. Messy's greatest weakness in any confrontation with Egwene, whether it be in t'a'r or in the waking world, is going to be her propensity to underestimate Egwene and overestimate her own abilities. And that's likely how Egwene will end up taking her down -- she'll think up something Messy won't be expecting (much like Nynaeve and Moghedien in TFoH; why would Moghedien expect an a'dam to materialize around her?)

I dont think Messy will underestimate egwene, because since she likely is still in the tower then she will be closely studying Egwene, and since she thinks she is a great researcher will do everythign possible to find out egwenes capabilities and will have a very accurate idea of her

All of the Forsaken have shown a propensity to underestimate the 3rd Agers' ability to innovate and improvise. Mesaana might be more careful than the others, but I don't see why this theme would change, since it's been the Lightside's ace in the hole when convenient to the plot. Perhaps Mesaana will be able to get the jump on Egwene -- and considering her latest failure, she needs to win big or suffer the DO's wrath -- bu I don't see it ending well for her.

[Luckers]

Keep in mind Egwene escaped Moghedian's dream traps in the past, and Amys believes that the Aiel are as strong as the Forsaken--and Amys isn't the type to make blind judgements. Additionally Maria stated that Egwene squeezed Moghedian for knowledge of the dream.

 

It may well be Egwene, who is stronger in the dream than Amys, exceeds any of the Forsaken straight up.

[Random Man]

Keep in mind Egwene escaped Moghedian's dream traps in the past, and Amys believes that the Aiel are as strong as the Forsaken--and Amys isn't the type to make blind judgements. Additionally Maria stated that Egwene squeezed Moghedian for knowledge of the dream.

 

It may well be Egwene, who is stronger in the dream than Amys, exceeds any of the Forsaken straight up.

I have no doubt that if Messy takes the fight between her and Egwene into the Dream, Egwene will come out on top. I also have no doubt that Egwene will come out on top regardless of where Messy chooses to strike, although if Messy is smart about it she'll be able to make it unpleasant for Egwene for a little bit. Considering that Egwene is looking for Messy, and that Messy has screwed the pooch by boasting the Aes Sedai would fight for the Dark One and then was both unable to prevent Egwene from gaining the Amyrlin Seat and the Purging, I also have no doubt we'll see a showdown as Messy makes one last gambit to save her bacon by bringing down Egwene. And my prediction of the outcome is that Messy will end up underestimating Egwene in some form (convenient to the plot), which leads to her defeat.

[mossman87]

I'm currently wondering about Min's viewing of Alivia, where she would apparently 'help Rand die', and about what sort of situation Rand would be in where he would prefer to die and not be able to manage it himself. For sure we are going to see this somewhere, ToM seems most likely to me. So what would it be? A few thoughts occur:

 

1) If Semi hadn't been balefired and had managed to take Rand to SG, he would certainly prefer to die rather than be slave to the DO. However, Semi is no longer around, but one of the other Forsaken may have a go.

 

2) If the said Forsaken is CynFear, she may do a Tylin on Rand.

 

3) Rand may go to the DO voluntarily, with Alivia as his Get Out Of SG free card.

 

4) Something else.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Something to do with his soul mostly likely.

[Durinax]

I think egwene is way to overconfident, she is as smug in her own crapulence as the forsaken. I could see her underestimating messy because she held a forsaken prisoner for a while. As for the dream trap that mog laid it wasnt particularily powerful, it was just a distraction, toying around with her. Besides if Messy where able to research a bit she would discover egwenes huge fear of the seanchean, and could see her putting an adam on her neck again, with the viewing of gawyn saving egwene coming into play. I dont see egwene coming out over messy in a one on one battle

[FarShainMael]

I'm bothered about Alivia, in fact. She was collared for some four hundred years, yet still appears to retain a sense of her own identity, which other damane seem to lose quite quickly, often to the extent of begging to be re-collared. In fact, we don't know if Alivia is her true (pre-collaring) name, do we?

 

I think Alivia has her own agenda in some way, or rather, her former sul'dam's agenda.

 

[aunt_pol]

@ FSM - good point there.

Alivia seems to be entirely too cool to be what she claims. She's a great roaring contrast to every other damane, on or off a leash.

Even Egwene -who is strong enough in sense of self, to be fair- felt she could lose herself after a very short time as damane.

How the dickens would Alivia keep it together for 300-odd years, or whatever she is?

Or regain composure after so short a period of freedom? In the company of more than one channeling man?

 

Somethin fishy afoot...

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yes and its being done very quietly in the background. Very little Alivia in the last book.

[Random Man]

@ FSM - good point there.

Alivia seems to be entirely too cool to be what she claims. She's a great roaring contrast to every other damane, on or off a leash.

Even Egwene -who is strong enough in sense of self, to be fair- felt she could lose herself after a very short time as damane.

How the dickens would Alivia keep it together for 300-odd years, or whatever she is?

Or regain composure after so short a period of freedom? In the company of more than one channeling man?

 

Somethin fishy afoot...

 

Think about this for a second. We know exactly how strong Alivia is in the Power: off-the-charts strong. She'd be aware quite early on in her life of how strong she really was compared to everyone else. Additionally, with this kind of strength, she'd be a celebrity in Seanchan, at least in the sense of how she'd be treated. She wouldn't exactly be in line to be leashed to a man for the Emperess' pleasure. We have the seeds for her to reestablish her own sense of self-worth over time, and for her to ultimately begin to resent those who keep her leashed. There doesn't have to be anything "fishy" about it.

[Durinax]

@ FSM - good point there.

Alivia seems to be entirely too cool to be what she claims. She's a great roaring contrast to every other damane, on or off a leash.

Even Egwene -who is strong enough in sense of self, to be fair- felt she could lose herself after a very short time as damane.

How the dickens would Alivia keep it together for 300-odd years, or whatever she is?

Or regain composure after so short a period of freedom? In the company of more than one channeling man?

 

Somethin fishy afoot...

 

Think about this for a second. We know exactly how strong Alivia is in the Power: off-the-charts strong. She'd be aware quite early on in her life of how strong she really was compared to everyone else. Additionally, with this kind of strength, she'd be a celebrity in Seanchan, at least in the sense of how she'd be treated. She wouldn't exactly be in line to be leashed to a man for the Emperess' pleasure. We have the seeds for her to reestablish her own sense of self-worth over time, and for her to ultimately begin to resent those who keep her leashed. There doesn't have to be anything "fishy" about it.

plussince she is seanchean she probably didnt have the harsh breakign in that free channellers had

[FarShainMael]

I seriously doubt she would be treated as a 'celebrity' by the Seanchan. Her sul'dam would be aware of her strength, and see her as a serious danger, and would be afraid that she might be strong enough to break free of the a'dam. (Query: would the sul'dam have to be just as strong?) She would have to be reigned in very hard indeed, I would think, so she doesn't even think of rebelling.

 

As for her re-establishing her sense of identity (not self-worth, which is different) I don't think this is actually possible. Not after 4 centuries of referring to herself in the third person, for a start, never mind the aversion 'therapy' applied by the leash.

 

Is there someone on these boards who has any info on the effects of prolonged captivity involving suppression of identity?

 

[Sharaman]

I seriously doubt she would be treated as a 'celebrity' by the Seanchan. Her sul'dam would be aware of her strength, and see her as a serious danger, and would be afraid that she might be strong enough to break free of the a'dam. (Query: would the sul'dam have to be just as strong?) She would have to be reigned in very hard indeed, I would think, so she doesn't even think of rebelling.

 

As for her re-establishing her sense of identity (not self-worth, which is different) I don't think this is actually possible. Not after 4 centuries of referring to herself in the third person, for a start, never mind the aversion 'therapy' applied by the leash.

 

Is there someone on these boards who has any info on the effects of prolonged captivity involving suppression of identity?

 

 

I don't think there's an issue about strength making her dangerous in itself. The a'dam holds a channeler regardless of her strength. Being impossible to (externally) shield without circles, yes. So the tactical issue would have been more about ensuring that the sul'dams who handled Alivia were completely trustworthy because if they rebelled as a two-woman unit, they'd be impossible to stop.

 

Also Alivia would have been brain-washed from birth and she was very young when leashed so, she may have needed less overt programming. Any real-world behaviourial quirks resulting from prolonged captivity would be impossible to translate into WoT damane-ID analogies because of difference in time spans and of cultural conditioning.

 

Most Seanchan-born damane seem to feel it's right and proper that they be leashed and even AS have been successfully reprogrammed. How and why Alivia busted through that "Stockholm Syndrome" variation and why other damane don't is a puzzle. We just have to accept it.

 

 

 

 

[Durinax]

I think its because she was such a good damane they didnt punish her much, and rewarded her lots

 

then she would be more confident, not as broken down, and easier to break from the Syndrome. That and some secret resentment towards how other damane where treated could have effected her coming too

[FarShainMael]

Any real-world behaviourial quirks resulting from prolonged captivity would be impossible to translate into WoT damane-ID analogies because of difference in time spans and of cultural conditioning.

 

But we're still dealing with the same basic human psychology. (I think!)

 

she would be more confident, not as broken down, and easier to break from the Syndrome. That and some secret resentment towards how other damane where treated could have effected her coming too

 

I'd go along with this somewhat..

 

She might indeed have accepted being leashed as her duty to the Empress (mslf). But that now makes me wonder: is her motivation now still that duty? And if so, how will she discharge it?

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

I think she's rejected the Seanchan philosophy / cultural shibboleths wholesale -she wants to kill sul'dam.

The time periods of damane being leashed are mind-boggling - at best, the odd human being in reality has spent a maximum of 40-50 years in jail.

Another thing you should consider is that cultural conditioning can make lots of stuff seem normal/ abnormal.

A lot of women in Islamic societies in particular, consider it normal to be swaddled up, not let out alone in public, etc. Many of them are educated, articulate, run their own businesses, etc., and don't even consider themselves circumscribed.

It gets worse when you talk about genital mutilation, which is another "normal practice" in certain parts of Africa.

Similarly, any Seanchan is brought up to believe that damane have to be leashed.

Does the average damane think she's being badly treated? Probably not, given their reactions.

Cultural conditioning - guessing where it can go is a tough game.

 

[aunt_pol]

It's still plain weird.

Look at the damane POV from early in TGS. She was terrified of Rand. Every single woman who can channel gets a queasy belly thinking of channeling men going nutso. Moiraine and Lanfear seemed to be the only ones truly at ease with him.

 

Then here comes Alivia, from a culture where female channelers are leashed because they're considered dangerous: the men are just killed full stop. And here's himself, bold as brass, free as a bird, and Alivia knows from Min's reading (I'm fairly sure she's been informed) that she has to 'help him die.'

 

And nobody mentions any loss of composure on her part at all.

While her strength may aid in establishing her individuality, I'd imagine her long years of slavery would override that. Add a lifetime of brainwashing, on top of the general knowledge that channelers must be leashed, and it just doesn't add up to so cool a customer as she seems to be.

 

Def somethin weird there. Help him die? Remember Min saw Elza serving Rand. Look how that worked out.

[Sharaman]

Alivia has a certain amount of (justified) confidence in being able to take care of herself in any violent OP situation. Fighting Cydnane to a draw couldn't have hurt.

She says as much when she's referring to Ashaman - "they're not bad but I'm better".

That does make a difference to her attitude - if somebody goes ape, she knows she can take care of it.

She's not scared of anyone really because she knows she's very strong and very experienced at killing strong channelers among other things. 

 

[FarShainMael]

Def somethin weird there. Help him die? Remember Min saw Elza serving Rand. Look how that worked out.

 

And we don't really know what that viewing was, do we? We don't have a Min PoV of it. only two slightly different interpretations:

 

Min: 'She is going to kill you'

Rand: 'You said she was going to help me die'.. 'unless you've changed your mind about what you saw'.