Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[FarShainMael]

There's something different about Lanfear's resurrection.

 

Throughout the whole series we see that slight changes in circumstances make for different outcomes, often to much consternation of the involved characters.

 

The manner of Lanfear's death and resurrection is different from any other's. She died in Finnland, a ter'angreal meltet, and she is diminished in strength upon resurrection. Moreover, her character has changed quite a bit. There's a mystery to this and I believe we will learn about that in ToM.

 

I'm not saying, nor do I actually think, that Lanfear and Cyndane are two completely different people. What I'm skeptical about is the idea that Cyndane is the one-to-one, cut-and-paste successor to Lanfear. Cyndane is of Lanfear, that much seems certain, but I'm not convinced that Lanfear is entirely explained by and accounted for in the form of "Cyndane." Does that make sense?

 

People have always assumed that Lanfear was either killed or trapped in Finnland, and the Dark One or the Finns transmigrated her into a new body and gave her the name Cyndane. Badda-bing, badda-boom, off to Moridin to be mindtrapped and then off to Randland to be a good little lackey. Whether or not those events actually occurred, I think something more significant also happened to her at the hands of the Finns. I just don't know what that might be.

 

One possibility might be that the 'finns merged her with Moiraine and transmigrated the pair of them. The only reason I think this is that so far we've only seen one such merging - Slayer - and it feels like such a loose end, a story arc that doesn't seem to go anywhere in particular. But Slayer too may possibly have a connection with the ToG, Perrin having dream-followed him to where he vanished  near it.

 

If so, it's going to present Mat and co with a pretty problem trying to extricate her!

 

 

[Sharaman]

Well, we have an RJ quote saying the Finns can't transmigrate souls.

Only GLoD can, and this would be nuts for Him to do.

Other things that make it unlikely

Clearly Cyndi isn't held by the Finns anymore, whereas Moiraine is (or at least, gave Thom to understand so).

Also would the mind-trap work on a dual personality?

 

[FarShainMael]

As you say, Moiraine gave Thom to understand that she would be with the 'finns.

 

It would work like this:

 

For their own reasons (possibly related to damage done to their realm when L and M fell through the doorway), the 'finns merged Lanfear and Moiraine, and then killed the merged being. If this seems a bit of an odd sequence, recall that they gave Mat what he wanted, and set his life as the price, making those gifts valueless. Except for Rand showing up, of course.

 

The DO transmigrates the dual soul. If Lanfear is the stronger personality of the two, either the DO doesn't perceive Mo's presence (unlikely) or ignores it, leaving CynFear in charge of the new body.

 

Similarly, the mind-trap is tuned to the Lanfear personality.

 

Perhaps this might lead to an interesting encounter. Cyndane-as-Lanfear goes after and tries to seduce Rand. Moridin is furious and destroys her mindtrap, killing Lanfear - but leaving Moiraine the sole occupant of the Cyndane body!

 

Or perhaps the rescue plan becomes one of Mat and co trying to persuade the 'finns to un-merge the two girls (for which they demand Mat's somewhat scarred hide)!

 

[Sharaman]

Still posits that the Finns can merge souls - etc.

The following seems to make it unlikely

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power?  I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

RJ: No. No to both.

Though I guess it doesn't rule it out totally since we don't know how the Slayer-merge happened except "one did live and one did die" - which also seems to suggest that your suggested modus operandi is not possible.

[FarShainMael]

So the 'finns would have to merge the two souls (L: and M, or Luc and I) before they are killed, though the merging process might itself result in their deaths. At that point, the DO takes over and does the transmigration, so the 'finns don't get involved (in fact, can't).

 

Problem: would 'merging' be a form of transmigration? If so, it knocks this on the head, so I hope not   ;)

 

PS: Possibly not. Slayer's two identities are still recognisable - he's been seen as someone who 'could have been Rand's uncle'; WH Ch10 (in TAR admittedly, but apparently in the flesh, correct me if wrong) and also as 'Lan's brother or cousin'; tSR Ch53. I don't think that would have happened if any transmigration was involved.

 

The 'one did live and one did die' doesn't leave much room for the duality exhibited by Slayer, who seems to be able to manifest as either Luc or Isam pretty much at will ('both are'). But that line is from the Dark Prophecy, and is therefore (IMO) suspect.

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

What about when they fell through the door together? Could they have merged together? I'm thinking of The Fly here and also the treehouse of horror episode of the Simpsons.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

A merged personality; that's an interesting idea. I'd never thought of it like that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

geez, what ever happened to just the simple rescue?

 

Why cant Mat just go in and save Moiraine like everything is supposed to be?

 

Really, I dont think all these theories about merging and what not really apply to Moiraine/Lanfear.

It would be disapppointing to say the least, if some crazy thing like that happened.

 

Seriously, it will just be simple, as it looks, Moiraine trapped in the Tower (in her own body) and Mat comes along and saves her.

 

Really, I do think people are looking to much into everything

[Ashaman Kovan]

Really, I do think people are looking to much into everything

 

Well...We are all sort of, technically, fanatics... :]

[Barid Bel Medar]

Really, I do think people are looking to much into everything

 

Well...We are all sort of, technically, fanatics... :]

 

haha, fair enough point.

 

but still...

Cant anything be as simple as it looks? :)

[Owayn The Traveller]

Sure why not but they both went through the doorway channeling and melted the doorway behind them, now that's not a simple way to enter so it might led to unusual results.

 

And come on there is something unusual about Cydane. If she is straight up Lanfear why is she weaker in the power?

[FarShainMael]

What about when they fell through the door together? Could they have merged together? I'm thinking of The Fly here and also the treehouse of horror episode of the Simpsons.

 

I had similar thoughts myself, see post 1375, here:

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47899.msg1729770.html

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Ah yes I see. Well then I agree with you on the possibility of this occurrence.

[FarShainMael]

Great minds think alike!  ;)

 

[Sharaman]

Great minds think alike!  ;)

 

It is Occam's Razor to assume

 

1) Lanfear was stilled / burnt out (either by the Finns using some artefact) or because Moiraine grabbed the angreal as we know she did, and Lanfear lost the source suddenly.

2) Then she was killed at some stage (by Moiraine /or by the Finns) but not using Balefire

3) Then she was transmigrated (by GLoD) into Cyndane

4) Then the transmigrated body was healed by a woman.

 

Fits all we know of the circumstances of Lanfear-Cyndane and of the processes of healing.

No speculation about merging and other weirdness is necessary.

 

(Not saying it isn't fun to indulge)

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Certainly is.. ;)

 

The problem is that there are oddities about Cyn, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Even the Forsaken have noticed: good ol' Demi has his doubts about her identity (WH,  CH13): 'He thought Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesaana told him that she is weaker than Lanfear was.'

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html

 

So before your pal William starts waving his razor about, tell him to make sure he's got all the facts that are available.

 

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

Certainly is.. ;)

 

The problem is that there are oddities about Cyn, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Even the Forsaken have noticed: good ol' Demi has his doubts about her identity (WH,  CH13): 'He thought Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesaana told him that she is weaker than Lanfear was.'

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html

 

So before your pal William starts waving his razor about, tell him to make sure he's got all the facts that are available.

 

 

That fact and all the other facts are explicable in terms of what we already know - Demi doesn't necessarily know them -specifically he may not know about the possibility of healing. Also, he wouldn't really be capable of judging strength of a saidar channeller.

 

The Lanfear=Cyndnane where Lanfear> Cyndane theory.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear went through the Finn door.

Moiraine snatched the Angreal from Lanfear.

We know that channellers can be stilled/ burnt if they lose the source suddenly.

Lanfear could therefore have been stilled when the angreal was taken from her.

 

Cyndane has Lanfear's memories and PoV - ergo, she is Lanfear transmigrated

She is weaker than Lanfear (though still very, very strong. (stronger than Graendal))

We know that women healed by women are weaker than they used to be.

(However Cyndane is weak only in comparison to Lanfear.) 

 

Cyndane was mind-trapped before Moghedien - ergo Cyndane was transmigrated before Moghedien escaped.

(Moridin already had her mindtrap when he mind-trapped Moggy)

Moggy escaped before Dumai's Wells - male healing was discovered only after Dumai's Wells (when Flynn experimented on the women Rand had stilled).

Ergo, Lanfear could only have been healed by a woman.

 

Plenty of BA women knew healing - Dagdara Finchey for one.

Any of them could have done it

Does stilling carry over in transmigration? Yes it does, according to Maria (MAFO)

Any quotes you want for the above available on request,

 

What else?

Ah yes, I'm presuming in the above that Lanfear was killed.

Is it easier to postulate that Lanfear was killed, or to imagine that some conglomerate dual-boot system consisting of Lanfear and Moiraine was sent into sleep mode and then turned into Cyndane?

The razor comes into play here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

What caused the door to melt?

 

Okay was Moraine channeling when she went through the door? Were either of them? Lanfear was before but then Moraine grabbed the angreal.

[Knobs Mahoney]

What about when they fell through the door together? Could they have merged together? I'm thinking of The Fly here and also the treehouse of horror episode of the Simpsons.

 

Brundle-Fly-Sedai.

[pacificflows]

Certainly is.. ;)

 

The problem is that there are oddities about Cyn, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Even the Forsaken have noticed: good ol' Demi has his doubts about her identity (WH,  CH13): 'He thought Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesaana told him that she is weaker than Lanfear was.'

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html

 

That's because Cyndane is Asmodean. Clearly.

[pacificflows]

... I gotta think that the old man w/ the staff is Noal...only thing is we never see Noal w/ a staff but i still think it seems to confirm him as the 3rd.

 

I would speculate that the staff depicted is M's staff. Anyone know what happened to it after she dissappeared?

[Random Man]

... I gotta think that the old man w/ the staff is Noal...only thing is we never see Noal w/ a staff but i still think it seems to confirm him as the 3rd.

 

I would speculate that the staff depicted is M's staff. Anyone know what happened to it after she dissappeared?

Last we saw her staff, it was left on the ground outside the busted Waygate near Fal Dara. Noal must have passed by sometime later. He obviously tripped over the staff (he was far-striding when he should have been short-striding) and fell into the Waygate. Since he had no lantern with him, the staff turned out to be quite useful in keeping him from falling over the edge of the Islands. After quite some time blundering around (fortunately he had some cheese and crackers with him), he ended up outside Ebou Dar. He then spent the next year and a half using a woolen rag to clean all the gunk off of it in his spare time so that it looked brand new. That's actually what he was up to in the alley when Mat met him. Quite frankly, I'm surprised Mat didn't recognize her staff right away.

[Sharaman]

What caused the door to melt?

 

Okay was Moraine channeling when she went through the door? Were either of them? Lanfear was before but then Moraine grabbed the angreal.

Suppressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine balanced upright a

moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant’s warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter’angreal. White light swallowed everything.

 

Yes.

[FarShainMael]

When Rand backed out of the doorway in Tear he was channelling saidin. We know this because he was using his saidin-sword. But that doorway did not melt.

 

Another question: why would the 'finns hold Moiraine captive, and not kill her, as they killed Lanfear?

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

When Rand backed out of the doorway in Tear he was channelling saidin. We know this because he was using his saidin-sword. But that doorway did not melt.

 

Another question: why would the 'finns hold Moiraine captive, and not kill her, as they killed Lanfear?

 

 

As to the question, I can list a few.

 

1. Lanfear is one of the Forsaken, we know the Finns dont like questions regarding the shadow, and that they could prove disasterous, could we not then say that they oppose the DO?

 

2. Moiraine knew (vaguely) what was going to happen, so she stopped channeling after the doorway was destroyed, and surrendered to the finns to await rescue.

 

3. Continuing on from 2, she made a bargain with the finns somehow.

 

Also, on a side note, from Cyn. PoV (if we accept her as in some way at least, Lanfear) she mentions "her time with the finns" or soemthing along those lines. Which suggests that she was a captive for at least some period of time. That, i think, makes a big difference. After all, why would you kill someone you have taken prisoner?

 

1. They try to escape. Which, knowing at least a bit, Moiraine would not attempt.

 

2. They find out she works for the shadow. (if they do indeed oppose the shadow, then they would kill her. Remember the DO is not just of this particular world, but all worlds in creation)

 

3. She gave them all the information they needed after interrogation. (unlikely, but there it is, and its likely that Moiraine would know not to tell them everything, having a vague impression of her escape and such)

 

4. Lanfear got her requests, as did Moiraine, but Lanfear, as Mat did, failed to say she wanted out alive, so they killed her and with the doorway now destroyed, she couldnt actually get out anyway, so she actually died. Moiraine on the other hand, knew once again, vaguely, of what would transpire, and having some experience from the other doorway, requested that they keep her alive.

3.