Spoilers: Prologue debunks a theory! Sorry X :)

[nophone]

what theory was debunked here? merging? body swap? The new book puts alot of this into question, which probabbly explains why it wasn't continued on after the books release. I gather the discussion took place when there was a prologue (and if i'm not mistaken 1st chapter) released online? I had alot of comments i would have made just now, but I did realize the last date here was in Sept. Still I'm interested in knowing what is agreed to be debunked here?

 

IMHO the merging has to do with either Lews and Rand reconsiling at the end of TGS.

or

The touch was what happened with the balefire touch and the merging has already happened.

 

It seems like body swapping is unlikely, but there was alot of interesting discussion in this forum.

 

of course i realize that the reconciliation had not been known during this discussion so plz whats up?

[Morsmordre]

Um... Moridin seems to understand the connection between them.

He says "I feel so tired. Is it you, or is it me?"

He seems to understand at least some part of their connection.

To me, the thing that the two balefires did looks exactly like the way men Travel. They made a hole in the Pattern O.o So, a link AND a hole in the Pattern. Or a link through the hole of the Pattern?

[Nethran Thaimal]

I don't think a merge or a swap will happen.  I mean, I know a merge has happened in the WoT world, with Luc and Isam, but I don't see two people of two different bodies becoming one.  Anywho, the only reason Moridin wants the world to die is because he has nothing to live for, like Rand was thinking he didn't.  If he feels Rand's fatigue then perhaps he will be more inclined to begin to feel love and redeem himself in the Light.

 

Morsmordre:  You lost me, lol.  But, lets say they burned their own balefires out of existence before they happened... nevermind, I just lost myself.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think the Prologue debunks anything at all. All it does is show us that the connection grows stronger. Also, when discounting the bodyswap idea as if it isnt a merge, remember that when they merge one dies. Meaning the two will not be together truly. Maybe Rand gets Moridins body and Moridins counsciousness dies, maybe we get a new Slayer entity. Who knows? Either way though, nothing is debunked.

 

And just as an afterthought, when someone loses a limb in RL they can often feel it afterwards, I dont think that in itself is an indicator of the connection. Only Moridins hand hurting

[nophone]

And just as an afterthought, when someone loses a limb in RL they can often feel it afterwards, I dont think that in itself is an indicator of the connection. Only Moridins hand hurting

 

EXACTLY so that point is null and VOID thank you very much psychology/biology crossover research

[OptimusPrime]

One other thing. Regarding Lews Therin, how would you explain what happened to HIM in TGS at the end? What is the disticntion between how Lews Therin existed within Rand before and affter Veins of Gold? Is Lews Therin dead, as of that chapter? I think Rand now has access to all previous Dragon knowledge, or at least something along that line. "The many become one." Another Bible reference, this time to Legion? 

 

In my opinion, Lews Therin was already dead, but still was, just like Luc. Lews Therin did not die in TGS, meaning Rand must still bind with someone who dies.

[Luckers]

I reckon it'd be better to discuss the bodyswap in the bodyswap thread I started. That way at least the relevant information is there. For the short though I stand by what I said earlier in the thread.

 

But on the Merge issue... I wrote this originally to be in the Body Swap Thread, but ultimately decided it was distracting from the issue.

 

Why a Swap? Why Not a Merge?

 

The Merge Theory, that Rand and Moridin will merge in a similar way to Mordeth and Fain, or Luc and Isam, was mostly based in Min's viewing of two men blurring together. In my opinion that prophecy was resolved in Threads of Gold, but since not everyone agrees I'll cover this issue.

 

Firstly, a merge would not resolve the requirements which were the original reason for suggesting the Body Swap. Rand would not be dead yet alive; he would not have killed himself with Alivia's aid, and so on [refer to Bodyswap thread for full details].

 

Secondly, a merge is made implausible by the nature of the link itself. Yes, thoughts are crossing, but at all stages Rand and Moridin remain completely distinct--in KoD Rand thinks that he could reach out and touch Moridin, showing a clear sense of Moridin's dimensions--the boundaries where he ends and Rand begins. In tGS the link is active so strongly it pulls Rand out through his wards, yet there is not even the slightest indication that their souls might be blurring together. Each man remains distinct from the other.

 

So yes, I don't see a basis for a merge, and it doesn't fit the nature of the link.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Thing is Luckers, if Rand ended up with Moridins body it would count as a merge in one way. One mans soul connecting to anothers body is as close to a merge as anything without one actually stepping into the other.

 

Regarding this whole thing, I feel the need to keep in mind Slayer. "One did live, one did die, but both are."

[Luckers]

The Merge Theory speaks of their souls joining. Best not confuse it through semantics--becuase yes, it may be applicable to use the word 'merge' in the bodyswap in terms of each mans soul 'merging' with the other mans body, but that's the Bodyswap Theory, not the Merge Theory.

[OptimusPrime]

Ahhh I see. Well, my belief is that Rands soul will invade Moridins body, Moridins soul will either be crushed (true to Rands brute force philosophy on everything) or it will be kicked out. Either way, Moridin dies, Rand ends up in Moridins body, and then Rand goes and gives Aviendha her second helping

[Morsmordre]

Stop connecting Real World and United States with the world of the Wheel of Time!!! This is a fantasy book! It's supposed to show stuff different from what we know in the real world! Yes, people who have lost their hand or leg could feel the lost limb as it is still there. It is most probably the same in the world of the Wheel of Time but haven't you learned so far that almost nothing is mentioned in vain!? Rand points out that he still feels his hand and Moridin looks like he's in pain for his missing hand. These two points are not mentioned just to indicate the similarities between Robert Jordan's world and the real world!

[Dakota]

Ahhh I see. Well, my belief is that Rands soul will invade Moridins body, Moridins soul will either be crushed (true to Rands brute force philosophy on everything) or it will be kicked out. Either way, Moridin dies, Rand ends up in Moridins body, and then Rand goes and gives Aviendha her second helping

 

Hrm.

 

I remember somewhere that somebody saw something in Aviendha's future, either a fortelling or dreaming or one of Min's visions, or something like that, about how she was going to have four kids at once, but that there was something odd about them.  I assume that this would be something above and beyond them likely being born small and premature.

 

Makes me wonder, fathering a child after the merge or body swap or whatever happens, what sort of affect would that have on the kid.

[OptimusPrime]

Stop connecting Real World and United States with the world of the Wheel of Time!!! This is a fantasy book! It's supposed to show stuff different from what we know in the real world! Yes, people who have lost their hand or leg could feel the lost limb as it is still there. It is most probably the same in the world of the Wheel of Time but haven't you learned so far that almost nothing is mentioned in vain!? Rand points out that he still feels his hand and Moridin looks like he's in pain for his missing hand. These two points are not mentioned just to indicate the similarities between Robert Jordan's world and the real world!

 

Stop clogging the thread up with crap that doesnt relate to the discussion. Rand notes something that is realistic whether you think it is or not. The books are full of references to real life, the Bible being a good example. Get over it

[Auld Manriva]

Not only Biblical stuff (not a lot of that actually) but far eastern, middle eastern, native american, norse and half a dozen others. You cannot discuss this tale without tripping over this kind of cosmik debris, so you may as well learn to live with it Morsmordre.

 

Yes, their both relating to their hand, missing in one case not in the other is significant but not some major deal. It just reinforces the link between them.

 

A merge in their case seems far fetched. Merge infers both persons in one carcass. That's not what's going on here from what I can tell. Luckers Swap Theory fits better (Although I'm still not sure it comes down that way) than any explanation anyone can cite, but go ahead and spit into a hurricane and argue it till your face turns blue if that's what blows yer skirt up.  *easy there big boys it's simply a figure of speech*

 

I remember somewhere that somebody saw something in Aviendha's future, either a fortelling or dreaming or one of Min's visions, or something like that, about how she was going to have four kids at once, but that there was something odd about them.  I assume that this would be something above and beyond them likely being born small and premature.

 

Makes me wonder, fathering a child after the merge or body swap or whatever happens, what sort of affect would that have on the kid.

 

That was a viewing by Min. If after the swap (and I doubt that'll be the case, Sire and Dam will "meet up" before then I predict.) then I don't see any weirdness other than a genetic out cross due to Moridin not being Aiel. Maybe a couple are redheaded scrubs and a couple are brunette's *shrugs* ... But in this story, who can tell.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

The kids will inherit genetic traits from Moridins body and anything else from Rand I reckon

[Auld Manriva]

Or maybe they all resemble THIS ginger bugger

 

What? Me mums Avi, me dad's a ta'veren mutant!

[Nethran Thaimal]

Maybe the four will be the first case of conjoined twins in Randland.  All four of them.  That would be unusual.

[nophone]

Stop connecting Real World and United States with the world of the Wheel of Time!!! This is a fantasy book! It's supposed to show stuff different from what we know in the real world! Yes, people who have lost their hand or leg could feel the lost limb as it is still there. It is most probably the same in the world of the Wheel of Time but haven't you learned so far that almost nothing is mentioned in vain!? Rand points out that he still feels his hand and Moridin looks like he's in pain for his missing hand. These two points are not mentioned just to indicate the similarities between Robert Jordan's world and the real world!

 

I must have skimmed this part about moridin feeling pain in his hand. I wasn't reading to deep in for this connection theory on my pass through the new novel... still, It had been mentioned right away all the way up through now that he still feels like he feels his hand... IMHO that had more to do with him being able to perform weaves he needed to "use" his fingers for. Since hand motions are not needed for a weave... but generally are used, and are sort of a crutch for channelers... I understand your point and see the signifigance, but only with the mention of Moridins hand hurting, if it wasn't for that, I would totally write it off as being in the psychological mind of a man whom is missing a limb.

[Calderis]

Hate hate hate the body swap idea. I sincerely hope this is proved wrong.

[nophone]

Hate hate hate the body swap idea. I sincerely hope this is proved wrong.

 

I really think the merging was between LTT and Rand. There might be some other prophetic significance... I definitely agree with a connection between Moridin and Rand... But one dieing so the other can live, I'm totally taking that as Rand was separating his psyche into 2 segments... Lews started off as mad but hard... but eventually became the voice of reason for compassion and good sense... If he hadn't reconciled the voices in his head... he was right there about to off himself and the rest of humanity for that matter. I also take the 'one dies so the other can live' to be significant as to Rand being able to be born again into the pattern. Perhaps it's only referring to his current life, but I totally feel it's meaning being transcendent as the wheel turns.

 

The main reason I don't like the body swap idea is that it just feels to cheesy. Not really RJ's style... but I concede that I do feel it's possible i'm totally wrong on this, I just hope i'm not because it would be a serious let down. A big Awe really? Unless it's written fantastically well... but it would have to really sweep me off my feet and take me to prom.

[Crael123]

Hate hate hate the body swap idea. I sincerely hope this is proved wrong.

 

it should die.

[Majsju]

Hate hate hate the body swap idea. I sincerely hope this is proved wrong.

 

Do not worry, it will not happen. Despite what Luckers believes he has seen, therre is nothing whatsoever that indicates something like that is going on.

[Ramzrie]

I too have always believe that the merge would be between LTT and Rand.  I am not a fan of the merge/body swap theories.  I think it would be a pretty cheezy way to get rid of Moridin, I would much rather see an epic battle between them.  I still hold to my belief that Rand will die and be resurrected by Nyn 3 days later.

[NetSlider]

Maybe I'm missing something, but where is the whole 3 days came from? I cannot remember a single reference to "3 days". I know that there is "3 becoming one" but 3 days...where does that appear?

[NetSlider]

P.S. IMO, the body swap or the body merge will not happen. At least not in any physical way. If it does, than I must say that RJ is not as great as I think and the whole Neo/Agent Smith is way to obvious.