Elayne doesnt like what Rand did in andor

[Luckers]

About the women--they make perfect sense within a society in which only women can hold the highest political status. Naturally that's going to skew gender roles and expectations. And you'll note RJ makes a point of forcing his female characters to come off their high horses every once in a while, and that when they do they achieve much more. Furthermore amongst the Aiel, where gender power has remained more closely in balance, this whiney sense of self-entitlement is much less noticeable. If, at all. Aviendha even takes Elayne to task about this.

 

RJ was very aware of what he was doing, and now male channelers are re-appearing the gender balance will slow begin to re-appear also. It's already beginning.

 

 

Not saying that he would 'give' Andor to Elayne.

 

Yes, because it implied that a) it was his to give and b) its not hers by birthright. The first, people know and like Rand less for. The second, people see as an opportunity to move towards the Throne. Rands casual comment hinted that Elayne couldnt take the throne without him, and no matter who he gives it to it sparked peoples ambition. "What? Al'Thors giving a throne away? He cant do that! Not when I have a claim to it!"

 

What phrase SHOULD he have said? Because I can't think of any. Technically he does have claim being the son of Tigraine and having removed Lord Gabriel from being King of Andor. I really just feel bad for Rand he was screwed no matter what he did in Andor, at least Dylin didn't treat him like crap for it.

 

I actually already gave one. ""I recognise that Elayne is the rightful air." He could even have added after that "and I support her." without it being as damaging as what he said. As long as he acknowledged that he was supporting her because she had the right, rather than that he wanted her to rule (implying she'd rule on behalf of him)."

 

 

If Elayne had still had a problem, that would be her issue--but the fact is she was right about that comment. Rand should never have said it, and should have known to never say it.

 

 

[Muad Cheade]

You're missing the point.  She went WAY beyond a little arrogant.  Mat faced the Black Ajah and the forsaken to get her out of prison, and all he got for his trouble was an earful of grief.  Clearly she was in the wrong, as was proved when Birgette and Aviendha got word of it.  There was a reason she was forced to apologize.

 

It was a slight joke. She's the Queen of Andor and an Aes Sedai. Of course she would be arrogant. And after she apologized, there was a complete change in her relationship with Mat. You don't seem to have the same problem with Egwene and Nynaeve as they pretty much treated Mat the same way.

 

My point about Rand isn't that he isn't naive.  It's that Elayne isn't any better and makes mistakes constantly.  The differences is that Rand loves Elayne and thinks fondly of her.  Elayne thinks of Rand like someone's slow cousin who needs to wear a bib or he'll drool on himself.

 

At least give Rand a little credit for his accomplishments.  He's united more of the world than anyone outside of Artur Hawkwing.  I'd say he's doing a pretty decent job so far.

 

Yeah...I never got the impression that she thought of Rand as an infant. Yes, he loves her and it's very obvious she loves him. No one's saying Elayne doesn't make mistakes. Every character in the book has made them. So I don't get that point or why you think Elayne thinks of Rand as a "slow cousin."

 

I have read it recently.  Merana and Rafela did WAY better than Elayne and Nyneave.  What Elayne and Nyneave got was help in using the bowl of winds.  Their logic?  They didn't have time to bring the bowl back to Egwene.  This makes no sense as they could make a gateway and be there in minutes.  What did they give up?  Twenty Aes Sedai to teach the windfinders forever.  When one leaves they must be replaced.  They also gave up the bowl itself.  All for help they didnt' need had they simply taken the bowl back to the rebels in Salidar.

 

Actually, the Sea Folk were vital in using the Bowl. They are the most skilled in Cloud Dancing (Notice how Caire leads the circle and uses very complex weaves). I highly doubt the Salidar Aes Sedai could change the entire weather. It is also possible that if they had not left for the Kin's farm to use the Bowl they might be damane.

 

There is not much need for the Bowl right now and I am sure there are ways around the Bargain as Rand found ways around the one Merana made.

 

Contrast that to the deal Merana made.  They gave up a square mile of land in every city Rand controls, and he has to come visit them when they call but not more than twice in five years.  In exchange Rand gets all the ships he wants whenever he wants for any reason he wants.  That seems like a much better deal to me.

 

Actually, the Bargain Merana made was quite more serious than that. One of them is that Rand cannot change their laws. As we have seen from the laws in Tear and Cairhien, that's probably not a good thing. As for the square mile..."The Coramoor must give the Atha’an Miere land, a square one mile on each side, at every city on navigable water that he controls now or comes to control." Dobraine believes that that will lead to further mistrust of the nobles towards Rand because that square mile would be under Sea Folk law and affect that city's trade.

 

Clear failure on Elayne's part, especially since she should have been the primary negotiator.  Nyneave is a village woman, but Elayne's trained in politics and negotiation.  She shouldn't have been intimidated, or if she was should still have been smart enough not to make that deal.

 

Well, since the four Aes Sedai who Bargained with the Sea Folk and somewhat lost, it pretty much shows how good the Sea Folk are at Bargaining. It's often said that they are equal or superior to the Domanis. You're logic is faulty about Elayne being "trained in politics and negotiations." Weiramon has fought for years and was raised to lead men in battle, but does that make him any less of a fool? Makes no sense. However, Elayne and Nynaeve did succeed in binding another group of channelers strongly to (Egwene's) White Tower.

 

Right, but she's putting the problems of her nation ahead of the problems of the whole world.  Tarmon Gaidon is coming and she has shown no open support for Rand.  This is going to terrify many of the nobles who may fear that Rand will return since Elayne has clearly rejected him.  The whole world is aware of that.

 

You do realize that if she did not prove herself independent, Andor would still be wracked in a civil war during Tarmon Gai'don. I don't think her loyalty to Rand is even questionable. Nearly everyone knows she supports him.

 

Also, Tear goes into open rebellion after she makes this claim, and Cairehien is moving in that direction.  We don't have a PoV saying that it emasculated him, but we don't need one.  That's common sense based on the politics as demonstrated in the world.  We also have Rand's reaction, and he feels betrayed.

 

Wrong. Lady Damodred rebels in aCoS when Rand is taken by Galina and Colavere becomes Queen. Remember that's how Fain attacks him? When he goes to the camp incognito. The rebellion in Tear started in the Lord of Chaos when Rand meets with the Tairen nobles and Aiel Chiefs after dropping Taim at the "farm." Both happened well before Elayne and Co left Ebou Dar. Rand may feel betrayed but if he truly wanted Elayne to be Queen, it was something she had to do. Also, her removing the flags does not seem to effect Rand's relationships with his other three nations.

 

That's my whole point.  While under Gaebril's influence Morgase acted like a love sotted fool who doted over Rahvin and made really bad decision after really bad decision.  She had some of her closest supporters flogged for now reason.  When her 18 year old daughter shows up and gets knocked up within weeks of returning home why would they assume she's any different?  Would you?

 

You're acting like that is the reason Arymilla and her supporters are fighting Elayne. They already were against her before that rumor even began and before Elayne even met Mellar.

 

She didn't start the rumor, but allowing it to survive damages her position.  Again, if people think she is just like Morgase in her final year they will not crown her.  Allowing them to believe she's with child WHILE UNMARRIED is a big deal.  As you pointed out this isn't our world.  In our world that's not a big deal.  In RJs world child birth out of wedlock IS a big deal, especially from a potential queen.  Even more so when the most common rumor says its from Melar.  That makes the child a bastard.

 

1. I'm pretty sure Elayne would rather have her reputation sullied than her children harmed. It's a fair trade.

2. She's already Queen (although she hasn't been crowned) so what they think doesn't really matter. Also, I am sure she will correct the rumor since she is likely to reveal Mellar's Darkfriend-ness. Since the Black Ajah Aes Sedai are captured, she can be free to say the children are Rand.

3. Since she is already "married"/warded to Rand, the children aren't bastards.

 

This does keep her children safe, but it alienates nobles.  They still remember Morgase, and this paints Elayne as no different than her mother.  Why would people who were flogged at Morgase's whim crown her flipskirt daughter?  And they WOULD see her as a flipskirt.

 

First, the nobles weren't flogged on Morgase's whim. She was under Rahvin's Compulsion. Second, she's Queen. That's the same reason, Morgase could flogg the nobles without any immediate repercussions. Andor is an Absolute Monarchy which means the ruler has absolute power regardless of what the do. Thirdly, most of the nobles don't think she was a "flipskirt" else they wouldn't have joined her under siege and swore fealty. Even some of those who fought against her swore after the final battle so she has basically no opposition.

 

You're thinking with your heart.  Elayne can't afford to do that, because she is a queen.  She must think with her head, as she often reminds the reader.  Neither Min nor Aviendha are queens.  Either could bear a child without causing the problems that it does for Elayne.  Its not a valid comparison.

 

That was a pretty logical thought actually. If your "husband" was going to die within a year, now would be the right time to have children. Also, Min already Viewed it so she couldn't really change it. what problems did pregnancy cause Elayne? Mood swings? She's a woman. They have those constantly. The fact she cant channel as much? She has an army of channelers at her command. Not being able to drink wine? That's one less alcoholic. Don't really see any problems with her pregnancy.

 

She acted rashly and in her own interests, not those of Andor, when she slept with Rand.  SHE wanted it so she took it.  That was selfish on her part, and not very becoming of a queen who loves her nation.  This proves my point about her being spoiled.  She does what she wants and consequeces be damned.  How does this make her any less naive than Rand? She didn't consider the consequences of her actions.

 

It's not becoming of a Queen who loves her nation to not be with her husband? Makes no sense. And actually, she did her nation a huge favor. By having children now, she ensured that her line will continue and there will be a heir to rule after her death. Pretty smart wouldn't you say? I would actually think Rand is the one who does what he wants. I wouldn't call any of the main characters naive. They've seen the true face of the world and faced the Shadow. They've grown up fast. They make mistakes but they are far from naive.

 

I don't see what this has to do with anything.  Would you mind explaining please?  I agree with this part I just don't get what it has to do with my post =X

 

What I was saying is that our society is patriarchal. That is, men predominately are in charge, hold powerful positions, etc. I think part of the reason women in the WoT are thought to be so annoying is because we are not used to them being in the same position men are in our world. The same things that are said of women in Randland can be said of men in our world. Basically, what Luckers just said.

 

He might have, but he'd not have Andor and Gaebril would have been a knife at his back the whole time.  How would it have bound the Aes Sedai to him?  They left Altara and headed into Andor, which he now controls.  He knew where they were the whole time and could have come after them at any point.  He didn't.  Taking Altara would not have changed that. 

 

He already had Sammael in that position so it would not be a change really. What I said was if in TFoH, he went after Sammael instead of Rahvin, he would have caught the Salidar Aes Sedai before they were organized. They didn't leave Altara/Murandy until TPoD/WH. They wouldn't have had much choice with the Dragon Reborn appearing in front of them with a very large army.

 

Are you seriously arguing that Rand should have known about Morgase being alive in Altara?  You have the same attitude Elayne does.  Its like anything a man does to help has to be discounted, because a man couldn't possibly make an intelligent decision without first consulting a woman =p

 

If you actually read what I said, I said that after taking Illian, he could quickly secure Altara and Amadacia. Morgase was at the Fortress of Light (in Amadacia) until the Seanchan came. If Rand had taken Amadacia, he would have found out that Morgase was still alive. Get it?

 

He removed a forsaken from the throne of Andor and you think he should have left the man there?  I just don't get that o.o

 

Once again, if you read what I said, I said things would have turned out differently if he focused on Illian and the south first instead of going directly and Rahvin. It was all pure conjecture since you said Elayne "wouldn't have a chance if Rand had not gone after Rahvin." I merely stated my views on what I thought would happen if he went after Sammael first. Capisce?

 

[mb]

She constantly talks about how naive he is

I have not caught Elayne saying that Rand was naive.

 

She steps into Andor and immediately hamstrings the Dragon Reborn.  Rebellion is fermenting in Cahrehein and Tear, and she undercuts Rand by kicking his forces out of Caemlyn and removing his flags.

Rand talked about giving her the throne which implies 2 things: it was his to give, it was not her birthright.  She wanted to disprove both.

 

She puts it about that Melar is the father.

Actually, she lets the rumor spread.  Telling them the truth would likely give people the impression that she would expect his help which in turn would be equivalent to the things she was trying to disprove.

Also, telling them the truth might risk both their (Elayne's & Rand's) lives.

 

It wouldn't have been possible for her to even have a chance at the throne if Rand hadn't paved the way for her.  Rather than gratitude all we see from her is annoyance.

I do not see Elayne as annoyed toward Rand.  The main reason Elayne claimed the throne was the supposed death of her mother.  She might not have it if Rahvin was on it, yet he would probably have been killed eventually.  And the things she faced in gaining the throne might be considered worse than what Rand faced in trying to give it to her.

 

[Arkelias]

Muad, its clear there's been some miscommunication.  You seem to think I am not reading your posts, and come across as quite irritated.  I am reading your posts, and taking them seriously.  Please grant me the same courtesy.

 

It was a slight joke. She's the Queen of Andor and an Aes Sedai. Of course she would be arrogant. And after she apologized, there was a complete change in her relationship with Mat. You don't seem to have the same problem with Egwene and Nynaeve as they pretty much treated Mat the same way.

 

The thread is about Elayne, not Egwene or Nyneave.  Why would I bring up either?  That makes no sense nor do I see how its in any way relevant.

 

 

Yeah...I never got the impression that she thought of Rand as an infant. Yes, he loves her and it's very obvious she loves him. No one's saying Elayne doesn't make mistakes. Every character in the book has made them. So I don't get that point or why you think Elayne thinks of Rand as a "slow cousin."

 

Several times she's said he can't be trusted on his own, and wished she were with him to stop his 'blunders'.  Read her internal monologue and it almost always goes something like this.

 

She wanted to yell at him for doing x,y,z but knew when she saw him she'd simply kiss him instead.  Men!  Hmpf.

 

Actually, the Sea Folk were vital in using the Bowl. They are the most skilled in Cloud Dancing (Notice how Caire leads the circle and uses very complex weaves). I highly doubt the Salidar Aes Sedai could change the entire weather. It is also possible that if they had not left for the Kin's farm to use the Bowl they might be damane.

 

One sea folk was necessary.  One.  Not twenty.  All they actually needed in that bargain was a single windfinder to meld the flows.  The rest could easily have been replaced by Aes Sedai or Kin, because their knowledge wouldn't matter only their strength. 

 

Are you serious?  I didn't suggest they should remain in Ebou Dar, that's just stupid.  I said they should have gone back to Salidar.  They should have made the deal there, and used the bowl there. 

 

Do you disagree with this?  Was it better to use the bowl really close to the Seanchan, or to bring it back to Salidar where there was no threat and far more Aes Sedai to help?  The physical location didn't matter, and the more allies they were surrounded by the safer they'd be.

 

It was a bad deal and a bad decision.  You're trying to defend it, but you're standing in quicksand.  Even the girls have the good grace to be embarassed, because they understand how bad of a deal they made.  They express this every time its brought up in the books.

 

 

There is not much need for the Bowl right now and I am sure there are ways around the Bargain as Rand found ways around the one Merana made.

 

Aes sedai are long lived.  Someday they are going to need that bowl, but it now belongs to the Windfinders even though Aes Sedai recovered it.  That was really poor thinking on their part.  Again, it was a bad deal.  Even Elayne admits it.  Why won't you?

 

Actually, the Bargain Merana made was quite more serious than that. One of them is that Rand cannot change their laws. As we have seen from the laws in Tear and Cairhien, that's probably not a good thing. As for the square mile..."The Coramoor must give the Atha’an Miere land, a square one mile on each side, at every city on navigable water that he controls now or comes to control." Dobraine believes that that will lead to further mistrust of the nobles towards Rand because that square mile would be under Sea Folk law and affect that city's trade.

 

Its still gives Rand far more than what Elayne got in her deal.  Also, even if Rand's deal WAS bad does that make Elayne's somehow good?  Please concede this point and admit it was a bad deal, or explain to me how you think it was good.

 

Well, since the four Aes Sedai who Bargained with the Sea Folk and somewhat lost, it pretty much shows how good the Sea Folk are at Bargaining. It's often said that they are equal or superior to the Domanis. You're logic is faulty about Elayne being "trained in politics and negotiations." Weiramon has fought for years and was raised to lead men in battle, but does that make him any less of a fool? Makes no sense. However, Elayne and Nynaeve did succeed in binding another group of channelers strongly to (Egwene's) White Tower.

 

And yet when Elayne bargains for Windfinders to make gateways she gets the better of them.  Obviously they aren't that tough to deal with.  No my logic is not faulty.  Was she not trained from birth in politics?  Did she not have a first class education?

 

They didn't bind the Windfinders to the tower, they bound the tower to the windfinders.  The windfinders are the superior partner in that bargain.  There is a massive difference.

 

 

You do realize that if she did not prove herself independent, Andor would still be wracked in a civil war during Tarmon Gai'don. I don't think her loyalty to Rand is even questionable. Nearly everyone knows she supports him.

 

She hasn't publicly declared support for the Dragon Reborn that I've seen.  We the reader know she supports him, the world does not.  If I'm wrong here would someone mind shooting a page reference?  I definitely could be.

 

Wrong. Lady Damodred rebels in aCoS when Rand is taken by Galina and Colavere becomes Queen. Remember that's how Fain attacks him? When he goes to the camp incognito. The rebellion in Tear started in the Lord of Chaos when Rand meets with the Tairen nobles and Aiel Chiefs after dropping Taim at the "farm." Both happened well before Elayne and Co left Ebou Dar. Rand may feel betrayed but if he truly wanted Elayne to be Queen, it was something she had to do. Also, her removing the flags does not seem to effect Rand's relationships with his other three nations.

 

I think you're right here, and I was wrong.  Point conceded!

 

You're acting like that is the reason Arymilla and her supporters are fighting Elayne. They already were against her before that rumor even began and before Elayne even met Mellar.

 

You have this interesting habit of putting words in my mouth.  Arymilla and company are against her, however the majority of houses are undecided when the rumor first begins.  Elayne only has two houses under her banner at that point.  It's the undecided houses I'm talking about.  As they were undecided giving them rumors about the daughter heir being a slut are counterproductive.

 

Is having the undecided nobles believing Elayne to be a slut going to hurt her claim?  Yes or no?  Please answer the question as you have yet to do so.

 

 

1. I'm pretty sure Elayne would rather have her reputation sullied than her children harmed. It's a fair trade.

2. She's already Queen (although she hasn't been crowned) so what they think doesn't really matter. Also, I am sure she will correct the rumor since she is likely to reveal Mellar's Darkfriend-ness. Since the Black Ajah Aes Sedai are captured, she can be free to say the children are Rand.

3. Since she is already "married"/warded to Rand, the children aren't bastards.

 

I agree on one, but that supports my point of her caring more for her personal life than the throne. 

 

On two you're just wrong.  She's not queen.  If she was the whole discussion would be moot.  You are acting like she already had the throne.  She didn't.  She needed support or did you not read those three books?  A huge chunk is her currying favor among the nobles BECAUSE SHE ISN'T THE QUEEN yet.  What they think very much matters and is the whole crux of the plot for hundreds of pages.  She needs their support and doesn't have it.

 

On three this is the definition of bastard from dictionary.com:  a person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child

 

You WANT Rand and Elayne to be married, because it supports your arguments.  They are not married.  Not even close.  They had sex and she bonded him.  Marriage involves a ceremony and would politically ally the Dragon Reborn with the Daughter Heir.  This would have huge political ramifications, and has most definitely NOT occured.  You're just wrong here.

 

So yes, the children will be bastards unless the marriage occurs before she gives birth.  You can try arguing it, but facts are facts.  Children born out of wedlock are bastards and thus illegitimate.  Why do you think Gawyn is prince and not Galad?

 

First, the nobles weren't flogged on Morgase's whim. She was under Rahvin's Compulsion. Second, she's Queen. That's the same reason, Morgase could flogg the nobles without any immediate repercussions. Andor is an Absolute Monarchy which means the ruler has absolute power regardless of what the do. Thirdly, most of the nobles don't think she was a "flipskirt" else they wouldn't have joined her under siege and swore fealty. Even some of those who fought against her swore after the final battle so she has basically no opposition.

 

You are missing the point.  Did the nobles believe she was under Rahvin's compulsion?  No they did not.  They don't believe Gaebril was a forsaken.  Since they don't believe that, they DO believe it was purely at Morgase's whim.  You can't argue that.  Its a fact covered in the text.  They think it was bad decisions on her part, and you're using information the reader has that they do not have.

 

I don't care if its an absolute monarchy.  Flogging a friend who helped you gain the throne is wrong, and there is no way that person is going to support your heir for the throne.  RJ agrees with me as this exact fact is mentioned in the books.  I believe it's house Pelivar that refuses to see 'any Trakand on the throne' because their matriarch was flogged.  So your argument here is just flat wrong.

 

Let's try another question and please answer instead of dodging.  Is the nobles thinking Elayne's a flipskirt bad?  If they think she's slept with captain Mellar while unmarried do you think they'd consider her a flipskirt?  Yes or no?

 

 

If you actually read what I said, I said that after taking Illian, he could quickly secure Altara and Amadacia. Morgase was at the Fortress of Light (in Amadacia) until the Seanchan came. If Rand had taken Amadacia, he would have found out that Morgase was still alive. Get it?

 

I did read what you said.  You said that if he took Altara he'd have gained the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  You are wrong there, but I notice you dropped that argument.  They wouldn't have followed him if he took the nation.  They'd have left.

 

Are you suggesting Rand should have taken the Fortress of the Light?  It isn't part of the government and would have meant declaring war on the Whitecloaks.  Assuming he did what would have stopped them from killing Morgase before he got there?  This is a weak point on your part, because its conjecture.  Neither of us can know what happened.

 

I have read your posts and answered them civily.  If I've said something to offend you let me know.  I have no problem apologizing, because I certainly wasn't trying to offend you.

 

Once again, if you read what I said, I said things would have turned out differently if he focused on Illian and the south first instead of going directly and Rahvin. It was all pure conjecture since you said Elayne "wouldn't have a chance if Rand had not gone after Rahvin." I merely stated my views on what I thought would happen if he went after Sammael first. Capisce?

 

Again, I did read what you said.  Very carefully.  You suggested that him going after Ravhin wasn't a good move and that he should have gone after Sammael first.  Am I misunderstanding that?  Also, I'm not sure how in one point its conjecture, but in another you use that same conjecture to support your arguments.

 

I am enjoying the discussion, but if this is upsetting you let me know.  I'll bow out of the thread.  I don't want any hurt feelings...to me this is just a discussion.

[Blackhoof]

Is there a record for "Worlds longest post"? because, i think that one takes the cake.  :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Each time I take a break and then come back to catch-up I'm always amazed and amused by how people react to events in the series.

 

A number of posters in this thread write as though the characters are real and have/had some choice in what they did/do and said/say. ( Me too, sometimes )  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Jordan described himself as "an Old Testament god with his fist firmly planted in the lives of his characters."

 

IOW, they do and say exactly what he wants exactly when he wants.  They have no choice.  They are merely puppets.

 

So, it seems to me that the question we should be asking here is, "Why did Jordan have Rand say he intended to 'give' the throne of Andor to Elayne?"

 

Obviously, to further what he saw as several crucial plot points.  So, what series of events has flowed from that simple statement of Rand's?  What have we and the characters in this story learned as a result?

 

For one thing, a number of Darkfriends have been exposed.  Previously elusive members of the Black Ajah have been flushed out.  Some killed.  The rest captured.  Alliances have been formed.  Andor's internal political strife has been settled.  Elayne has learned to command troops, and those troops have learned to respect her orders.  Birgitte has been forced into taking a prominent role in events.  Elayne has learned more about the art of negotiation, having had to deal with both Taim and the Borderlanders in addition to the ever-troublesome Sea Folk.  The Kin have become firmly enmeshed in the unfolding conflict.  etc.

 

So, Rand saying he was going to 'give' Andor to Elayne has resulted in the story we have, rather than a far different story we would have had if Jordan had caused Rand to say something else.

 

So, is the story we've got good enough?  Or are you really wishing we had a different story?

[Arkelias]

It's definitely good enough, Bob.  What I think you are underestimating is just how bored some of us can get at work ;)

 

To me the hypothetical discussion is fun!  By examining the characters as real people it teaches me a better understanding of motivation which I can use in my own writing.

 

I don't think any of us are actually mistaking them as real people, but it speaks to Jordan'd skill that some of us see them that way.

[Arkelias]

Is there a record for "Worlds longest post"? because, i think that one takes the cake.  :D

 

Hopefully I only hold the record until Muad answers me!  I love her dissecting my posts and I like doing the same to hers =p

[Blackhoof]

Do you realise what you've done! by dissecting her posts and vice versa, your posts keep getting bigger and bigger! This is catastrophic! You will cause a disastrous string of events that will eventually unravel the Pattern thread by thread!!! That, or Dragonmount will just expand, either way.  ;)

 

Ps: I dont want to seem to be intruding on your argument, but it was a bad deal, an awful deal, and elayne (and about every other main female character) Think of men (or rand, in this case) as "slow cousins" or some-such, idiots that cant make intelligent decisions without a woman to consult.

[Manjunathan]

Hopefully I only hold the record until Muad answers me!  I love her dissecting my posts and I like doing the same to hers =p

???

I thought Muad was a 'he'.

 

Regarding Rand and Elayne I would say it was wrong on his part to phrase it the way he did.

But when Arkelias says Elayne is being ungrateful, I have to agree with him. Without Rand killing Rahvin she would have found it impossible to ascent the throne.

People in WoT generally takes Dragon Reborn for granted.

[Blackhoof]

i've noticed that.  ::)

[Mr Ares]

Is there a record for "Worlds longest post"? because, i think that one takes the cake.  :D

Not even close.

 

Hopefully I only hold the record until Muad answers me!  I love her dissecting my posts and I like doing the same to hers =p

??? I thought Muad was a 'he'.

That's certainly what the male symbol under his name seems to indicate.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Blackhoof on September 10, 2009, 10:20:06 PM

Is there a record for "Worlds longest post"? because, i think that one takes the cake.

 

 

Not even close.

 

Hehe. Youngin's.

[Muad Cheade]

Is there a record for "Worlds longest post"? because, i think that one takes the cake.

 

Nope. RobertAlexWillis, Mr Ares, and Bob T. Dwarf have had way longer posts and those are just the ones I remember.

 

I thought Muad was a 'he'.

 

Correct, atleast the last time I checked. I am a (fairly handsome) male. Thought it would be obvious but anyways.

 

Muad, its clear there's been some miscommunication.  You seem to think I am not reading your posts, and come across as quite irritated.  I am reading your posts, and taking them seriously.  Please grant me the same courtesy.

 

Fair enough.

 

The thread is about Elayne, not Egwene or Nyneave.  Why would I bring up either?  That makes no sense nor do I see how its in any way relevant.

 

Good point.

 

Several times she's said he can't be trusted on his own, and wished she were with him to stop his 'blunders'.  Read her internal monologue and it almost always goes something like this.

 

She wanted to yell at him for doing x,y,z but knew when she saw him she'd simply kiss him instead.  Men!  Hmpf.

 

I'm pretty sure what she said in those internal monologues was her frustration over his actions than what she personally believed. The comment the OP is over helped cause the civil war and because he didn't address the Borderlands, she now has an army of 200,000 well-trained/armed soldiers on Andoran soil with 13 Aes Sedai. Not to mention the fact that he put the Black Tower in the heart of Andor, so I can understand her frustration.

 

One sea folk was necessary.  One.  Not twenty.  All they actually needed in that bargain was a single windfinder to meld the flows.  The rest could easily have been replaced by Aes Sedai or Kin, because their knowledge wouldn't matter only their strength.

 

Are you serious?  I didn't suggest they should remain in Ebou Dar, that's just stupid.  I said they should have gone back to Salidar.  They should have made the deal there, and used the bowl there.

 

Do you disagree with this?  Was it better to use the bowl really close to the Seanchan, or to bring it back to Salidar where there was no threat and far more Aes Sedai to help?  The physical location didn't matter, and the more allies they were surrounded by the safer they'd be.

 

It was a bad deal and a bad decision.  You're trying to defend it, but you're standing in quicksand.  Even the girls have the good grace to be embarassed, because they understand how bad of a deal they made.  They express this every time its brought up in the books.

 

I'm not saying it was a bad decision. It was a horrible bargain. Even Mat found out about near the end of aCoS. It was an bad mistake which I'm not arguing about. What I am saying is they had no choice really. They had to get the Sea Folk's help and the Windfinders knew it. It's hard to Bargain when the other side knows you absolutely have to have their help at any price. Whether one Windfinder or 20, Elayne and Nynaeve would have to get their help at any cost.

 

Not to mention that the Sea Folk are good bargainers and any Bargaining with them without a ta'avern being there has not really succeeded.

 

As for my Seanchan comment, I was referencing the fact that we don't know what would have happened if the girls actually convinced the Sea Folk to Salidar. They might have stayed longer in Ebou Dar or left for Salidar. If they had, Mat would never had met Tuon, Tylin would be alive, the Seanchan would not think the Aes Sedai had a weapon and plan an attack on Tar Valon etc, etc. So technically, it was for the best that the Bargain didn't turn out that well. Maybe it was the Pattern. Who knows? Anyways.

 

Aes sedai are long lived.  Someday they are going to need that bowl, but it now belongs to the Windfinders even though Aes Sedai recovered it.  That was really poor thinking on their part.  Again, it was a bad deal.  Even Elayne admits it.  Why won't you?

 

I've said that Elayne makes mistakes (as does everyone) and the Bargain is one of them. However, as for the Bowl, I am very certain if it was needed again, Elayne could simply copy it. Also, the fact that it was originally only meant to help for regional areas not the entire continent means that it's true value and necessity is not as high as before.

 

Its still gives Rand far more than what Elayne got in her deal.  Also, even if Rand's deal WAS bad does that make Elayne's somehow good?  Please concede this point and admit it was a bad deal, or explain to me how you think it was good.

 

Judging from Rand/Dobraine's first reactions, I'm not sure about that. And once again, Elayne's deal was bad and Egwene berates her for that, but I said that the fact that four Aes Sedai (one of the Grey Ajah) had less than-satisfactory deals with the Sea Folk does show their skill at Bargaining and the difficulty of Bargaining against them.

 

And yet when Elayne bargains for Windfinders to make gateways she gets the better of them.  Obviously they aren't that tough to deal with.  No my logic is not faulty.  Was she not trained from birth in politics?  Did she not have a first class education?

 

They didn't bind the Windfinders to the tower, they bound the tower to the windfinders.  The windfinders are the superior partner in that bargain.  There is a massive difference.

 

The second time she bargained with the Windfinders, she didn't have her back in the wall. While she needed their help making gateways for the siege, she could have gone on without them. The same couldn't be said of the first one where she had to get their help.

 

Not necessarily. As I said, there will doubtlessly be loopholes in this Bargain as there were in the one for the Cooramor. For example, the Amyrlin gets to name the teachers. So she could in fact name not only the two former Sea Folk Aes Sedai or newly raised Aes Sedai among other things. The Windfinders are tied closely to the Tower at Egwene's discretion. And as for binding the Aes Sedai to channelers, do you thing the Tower would be the superior power in an agreement with the Aiel Wise Ones? I think that Egwene would much rather have open lines of communication and any relationship with the three groups of channelers (and maybe fourth if you count the Asha'man) than none at all.

 

She hasn't publicly declared support for the Dragon Reborn that I've seen.  We the reader know she supports him, the world does not.  If I'm wrong here would someone mind shooting a page reference?  I definitely could be.

 

You might be right. I cannot seem to recall if it has been. The reader knows she supports him and it is obvious to the nobles that he supports her because of him "giving" the throne to her. However, she has said a number of times that she plans on increasing Andor's army size to prepare for Tarmon Gai'don etc which in Daes Daemar language says that she's atleast willing to fight beside him if not under him.

 

You have this interesting habit of putting words in my mouth.  Arymilla and company are against her, however the majority of houses are undecided when the rumor first begins.  Elayne only has two houses under her banner at that point.  It's the undecided houses I'm talking about.  As they were undecided giving them rumors about the daughter heir being a slut are counterproductive.

 

Is having the undecided nobles believing Elayne to be a slut going to hurt her claim?  Yes or no?  Please answer the question as you have yet to do so.

 

Ofcourse it would hurt her claim but that is only if they believed it and placed enough value to make it one of their deciding factors. Obviuosly, it didn't hurt her that much because as of KoD it was 6-6. And the other Houses were only undecided because 1). They wanted Dylein on the throne (well before Elayne got pregnant) and 2). They wanted the Borderlanders dealt with first. Elayne's pregnancy had little to do with that.

 

I agree on one, but that supports my point of her caring more for her personal life than the throne.

 

On two you're just wrong.  She's not queen.  If she was the whole discussion would be moot.  You are acting like she already had the throne.  She didn't.  She needed support or did you not read those three books?  A huge chunk is her currying favor among the nobles BECAUSE SHE ISN'T THE QUEEN yet.  What they think very much matters and is the whole crux of the plot for hundreds of pages.  She needs their support and doesn't have it.

 

On three this is the definition of bastard from dictionary.com:  a person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child

 

You WANT Rand and Elayne to be married, because it supports your arguments.  They are not married.  Not even close.  They had sex and she bonded him.  Marriage involves a ceremony and would politically ally the Dragon Reborn with the Daughter Heir.  This would have huge political ramifications, and has most definitely NOT occured.  You're just wrong here.

 

So yes, the children will be bastards unless the marriage occurs before she gives birth.  You can try arguing it, but facts are facts.  Children born out of wedlock are bastards and thus illegitimate.  Why do you think Gawyn is prince and not Galad?

 

If you read what I responded in the contex of what you said previously, you'd understand. You said "if people think she is just like Morgase in her final year they will not crown her." And I replied is that she is already Queen in everything but name. Get it? Obviously, it did not play that big of a deal in the nobles' minds. I don't even recall anyone speaking negatively about Elayne's pregnancy except for Elayne herself. So that point is moot.

 

Also, notice I put "married" in quotes. We don't know exactly the marriage customs of Randland and they seem different in every country so we don't. It is often said that Green Aes Sedai sometimes marry their warder but we don't have any other pertinent information other than there is a bond between them so it is plausible to assume that they think the bond is sufficient enough to serve as a "marriage license."

 

And finally, Galad is not a bastard. He is a prince if you read correctly. The reason why he is not First Prince of the Sword is because he is not Morgase's son. He's her step-son (and Rand's half-brother). Once again. Galad son of Taringail and Tigraine. Not a bastard.

 

You are missing the point.  Did the nobles believe she was under Rahvin's compulsion?  No they did not.  They don't believe Gaebril was a forsaken.  Since they don't believe that, they DO believe it was purely at Morgase's whim.  You can't argue that.  Its a fact covered in the text.  They think it was bad decisions on her part, and you're using information the reader has that they do not have.

 

I don't care if its an absolute monarchy.  Flogging a friend who helped you gain the throne is wrong, and there is no way that person is going to support your heir for the throne.  RJ agrees with me as this exact fact is mentioned in the books.  I believe it's house Pelivar that refuses to see 'any Trakand on the throne' because their matriarch was flogged.  So your argument here is just flat wrong.

 

Let's try another question and please answer instead of dodging.  Is the nobles thinking Elayne's a flipskirt bad?  If they think she's slept with captain Mellar while unmarried do you think they'd consider her a flipskirt?  Yes or no?

 

You said that they were flogged on Morgase's whim but I pointed out the fact that she had no control. If the above statement is what you meant, then yes, you are right. My statement about the absolute monaarchy was tied to that. Louis XIV said that he was the State. The same absolute power that allowed Henry VIII to behead his wives gives Morgase the power to flog the nobles, but since we were arguing about different sides of the coin, that part of the discussion is moot.

 

Once again, of course the nobles thinking Elayne is a flipskirt (nice word) is bad but that's only if they 1). Believe it and 2). Put enough value on it for it to affect their decision-making. As we see in the end of KoD, neither really happened.

 

I did read what you said.  You said that if he took Altara he'd have gained the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  You are wrong there, but I notice you dropped that argument.  They wouldn't have followed him if he took the nation.  They'd have left.

 

Are you suggesting Rand should have taken the Fortress of the Light?  It isn't part of the government and would have meant declaring war on the Whitecloaks.  Assuming he did what would have stopped them from killing Morgase before he got there?  This is a weak point on your part, because its conjecture.  Neither of us can know what happened.

 

I have read your posts and answered them civily.  If I've said something to offend you let me know.  I have no problem apologizing, because I certainly wasn't trying to offend you.

 

I thought I had mentioned it elsewhere, but I think that if the Dragon Reborn showed up with a massive army with the Aes Sedai caught with basically their pants down (at that point they kinda were) then yeas. He could bind them tightly to him.

 

Rand knows he's going to have to fight the Whitecloaks eventually. They hate him and he knows they were sent to his home to cause trouble (to put it lightly). The Fortress of Light is in Amador (the capital of Amadacia) and to take one means you have to take the other so there's really no problem there. Also, the Children would have no reason to kill Morgase else that deal they made with her is null and void.

 

You did nothing. I'm just always irascible, like a young handsome Cenn Buie.

 

Again, I did read what you said.  Very carefully.  You suggested that him going after Ravhin wasn't a good move and that he should have gone after Sammael first.  Am I misunderstanding that?  Also, I'm not sure how in one point its conjecture, but in another you use that same conjecture to support your arguments.

 

You said something to the effect that Elayne wouldn't have succeeded if Rand hadn't taken out Rahvin and I was just pointing out what would have happened if he had gone after his other target, Sammael. It's all purely guessing.

[Durinax]

The main criticism I have of Elayne is that she was stuck up off the start and has gotten better. The main disappointing thing is that she took over rands school and changed it for morgase? like let rand try and leave behind his name in a positive way! BTW the way she placed troops was simply genious during the civil war.

[Blackhoof]

I KNOW!  :( Randland women are such beetches

[Muad Cheade]

The main criticism I have of Elayne is that she was stuck up off the start and has gotten better. The main disappointing thing is that she took over rands school and changed it for morgase? like let rand try and leave behind his name in a positive way! BTW the way she placed troops was simply genious during the civil war.

 

Technically, she does have the ability to do that since it is in fact her city and I'm sure Rand did not mind as he already has ones in Cairhien and Tear and probably Illian. I believe Elayne renamed the school after Morgase is because every ruler wants to do something that will make them be remembered after they are gone and her mother did not get that chance.

 

I KNOW!  :( Randland women are such beetches

 

You have to look at the society of Randland. Women are often the most powerful people on the planet so that is probably why readers have a hard time with the "attitudes" of women as it is a complete opposite of our world.

[Durinax]

Moraine had more than ample time to do something to be remembered by, she had quite a few years (however old elayne and gawyn are) to go something great.

But Rand only has a total of 5 years to try and completely change how people think of the dragon, a man who has been feared for thousands of years

[Muad Cheade]

Moraine had more than ample time to do something to be remembered by, she had quite a few years (however old elayne and gawyn are) to go something great.

But Rand only has a total of 5 years to try and completely change how people think of the dragon, a man who has been feared for thousands of years

 

You mean Morgase. Well, her reign ended well before she would ever expect it to and she was not given the oppurtunity as there was the Aiel War (and it's aftermath) and Gaebril occupying large portions of her reign.

[Durinax]

Gaebril occupied about a year - a year and a half

the aiel never came to andor, they turned back at the WT

dealing with the refuges and such would be a burden but doable

and she came in after the Aiel war as far as I know, so she would not have dealt with most of that

so that leaves 10-15 ish years giving 3 to take care of the Aiel war and the maximum of 2 years that Gaebril could have done

[Muad Cheade]

Gaebril occupied about a year - a year and a half

the aiel never came to andor, they turned back at the WT

dealing with the refuges and such would be a burden but doable

and she came in after the Aiel war as far as I know, so she would not have dealt with most of that

so that leaves 10-15 ish years giving 3 to take care of the Aiel war and the maximum of 2 years that Gaebril could have done

 

She was indeed ruler of Andor during the Aiel War and sent over 20,000 men to fight in the Battle of the Shining Wall. Laman crossed the Erinin River which obviously did not end well because the Aiel pursued Laman into whatever lands he fled to.

 

Morgse has been repeatedly thought of to be a great ruler who cared for her people except for the end of her premature reign. She had no way to know her rule would end way before it did. Rand knows he's going to die soon, Morgase had no idea a Forsaken would fall into her lap (pun not intended). Although she was a good ruler, she was not able to leave something behind because she did not know she would be gone before her time.

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Err, Marshal General MC, the Fortress of the Light is now property of little miss Nine Moons, and the Waterclosets are a broken remnant of what they were. And Galad's willing to be an ally. And he's Rand's sister!  :P

 

Oh, and one more thing

 

Correct, atleast the last time I checked. I am a (fairly handsome) male. Thought it would be obvious but anyways.

 

Are you *sure* you don't have anything else to add? Because *I* am fairly certain that in the Wheel of Time, you're contractually obligated to say that you're "just short of middle years" any time you say something like that.  ::)

[Muad Cheade]

Err, Marshal General MC, the Fortress of the Light is now property of little miss Nine Moons, and the Waterclosets are a broken remnant of what they were. And Galad's willing to be an ally. And he's Rand's sister!  :P

 

I was just pointing out what I felt would happen if Rand, instead of going after Rahvin/Gaebril, went after Sammael. I think he'd then take Altara/Murandy/Amadacia while binding the Salidar Aes Sedai to him. Just specualtion. Don't doubt the "good" Whitecloaks." They might be only 7,000 but I think they're the most lethal fighting force apart from the Aiel and the Borderlanders.

 

Oh, and one more thing

 

Correct, atleast the last time I checked. I am a (fairly handsome) male. Thought it would be obvious but anyways.

 

Are you *sure* you don't have anything else to add? Because *I* am fairly certain that in the Wheel of Time, you're contractually obligated to say that you're "just short of middle years" any time you say something like that.  ::)

 

Haha. Good point there. Gotta love RJ. Most descriptive writer I've ever read.