Forsaken

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I was just reading about the forsaken and I realized, they are all crazy.

 

But my favorite one is Semerhage, she is the baddest of the thirteen.

[LedZepMan]

Nuh Uh, Demandred is totally the best. Hands down

[mmeeshal]

Semirhage is indeed the scariest.  But I don't like her.  She scares me.

 

My favorite is Asmodean.  He's such a loser, but he's awesome. :D  And I have a soft spot for musicians....>.>

[Toy and Minion]

I was listening to Dragon Reborn, when the Wonder Girls arrive at TV with Verin, Hurin, and Mat (in a litter), and the Whitecloak encounter.  I was doing multiple facepalms when first Elayne chimed in that she is Daughter-Heir, then Egwene and Nyneave blowing up the ground.  And of course, then Elayne tells Bornhald (sp?) that they had just arrived from Toman Head (after what happened at Falme).  ::)

 

I don't remember the MEN being that foolish, and yet the women think the men can't be trusted with tying their own bootlaces.

 

Can I just say that they deserved every punishment the Amyrlin gave them?

 

Anyways...

 

I know the men do stupid stubborn things, but nothing like that.  Just blew my mind.  *shakes head*

[mmeeshal]

That is one of the only things that ever comes close to irritating me about the books.  Women are so crazy in the WoT. 

I could go on and on about the things that made me go, "That is an unfair representation of women!"  But RJ was so good at what he did....  It was humorous, not annoying.  RJ, you are my hero. :-*

[Talya]

I can say I like a few of the Forsaken. I think Amosdean has to one of my favs, he was evil in a nice way, lol. Not too keen on Lanfear, I found her obsession a little too much and boring at times. Demandred seems good, mainly becasue you don't really know what he is up to.

 

As for the women in WoT I find they can be a little annoying too. But so can the men. If they just communicated for just 5 mins it would have saved alot of time and effort. Elayne gets on my nerves abit, she's not my fav character. Egwene is one of my favs. Mainly because I have the first book with the prologue of her when she was young in it and I liked her from that bit onwards.

 

Faile is my least fav character...I really don't like her, lol. And the whole Perrin/Faile stuff is a bit boring.

[mmeeshal]

Mat and Min are the best characters in the books, IMO.  Faile, I don't like as much as anyone else, but I don't DISlike her either.  Elayne is probably my least favorite.  I think in a lot of ways she's more immature than the other women in the books (they all have their weaknesses, but I think Elayne's show A LOT more).

 

Another thing I remembered... Women in the WoT world seem to enjoy preying on men.  That's the best term for it, I think. :D  And belittling.  Poor things.

[el Nynaeve]

Moridin is the best Forsaken by far. ;D

 

Tal, which book would that be? I know I don't have that.

[Dunbar]

I always liked Asmo

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I am surprised this thread stayed on topic for at least this long  :D

[Phariah]

i like a few of the Forsaken , but i love Greandal ;D

i mean ya ok let's start spreading the Shadow Forsaken !! move out!!

Greandal goes takes over a country and starts to have toga parties  :o

she hangs back in the cut lets everyone else take the dangerous tasks and than she goes in after they fall and cleans em out from all thier goodies  8)

i mean why fight and break a fingernail .. have someone else do it :P

i mean damn an immortal woman that loves to party what the hey    ;)

 

and she is a tuff cookie too she was ready to take on Moghie and Cyn, when Shadar Haran comes calling she doesn't fall apart, than when they went after the CK while Rand was cleansing the source she just walks thru the woods ready to have fun, she took down Verin's circle it seems like and got away safe she doesn't sport any wounds later  :D

[Zophiel]

I admit to a bit of a soft spot for poor ol' Asmo myself. He was stuck in such a bad situation, trying to survive. . . and his end was interesting-- not the classic Whodunit, but his thoughts right before were . . . well, they kinda made you wonder what exactly was going on deep inside that symphonic cranium of his.

 

As for the women (since they'd been brought up) . . . Maybe I'm waaaaay reading into things, but it occurred to me on my latest read-through, that Nynaeve says something interesting. She says (paraphrase a bit here) "Sure as peaches are poison . . ." And I stopped and said "Wait a daggum minute! Since when the hell are peaches poison?" And she's not the only one to use that phrase. Peaches, in Randland, are poison, even though in our world, they most certainly are not. So, we all know that Lews Therin's mission was  only just short of complete failure-- they seal up the bore, without the help of women who withdrew at the last moment (effing cowards!), but Saidin is tainted. The world breaks. Peaches are poison.

 

So, what if the world never stopped breaking, what if Saidin wasn't the only thing tainted by the Dark One? What if Saidin and the consequent Earth Movements were merely the most obvious things that the DO effected? On the latest read-through, especially after the first few books, I started to see that a lot of things in Randland were horribly yet subtly twisted, and it was taken for granted by the characters that it be so. The White Tower is only the most obvious example-- I think the whole Egwene part of the story is to bring this point out, that there is something horribly wrong with the entire institution. This is brought into stark relief when the Asha'man show up on the scene and you get the feeling it's not just the "taint" that sppoks the women, it's that OMG, there's men now who won't bow to their every whim, who can stand up to them and tell them to "F*ck off, b*tches!" (Go Jahar!)

 

My theory is that The Breaking effected more than the ground and Saidin. I think that in more subtle ways, human psychology and perhaps even specifically female psychology was effected to some degree or another. The Peaches were poisoned, as it were. Men, being associated with male channelers by their sex, were treated with slightly less regard than women. Male channellers were hunted down like rabid beasts to be figuratively castrated, and it's not long before that attitude would spread to all men-- the Red Ajah of course being the worst in this regard, but the general attitude infecting most of the Tower. And, over the course of 3,000 years, many ordinary women as well. The established balance was lost, and I think women (channellers especially) lost their perspective.

 

I mean, it takes Rand (our own lil' nutball!) and Nynaeve (who'll to anything to stick it to the Tower) to cleanse Saidin-- but not a single Aes Sedai during the breaking even thought to try-- their first thought was "Ohh, let's permanently maim them to the point that despair drives them to suicide!"

 

Can you tell I really don't like Aes Sedai?

 

Anyway, the point of this rant is: I think people are reacting to the women exactly as RJ intended. I think he intended to show, if I may wax a bit theological here, that the effects of sin are widespread, deep, and subtle. The women are supposed to annoy us, until they realize their own shortcomings. Min does this, makes Rand her priority (and to hell with the rest of the world) and for this, she's one of the most straight forward women in the whole series. It's why we like her. It's why I hate Cadsuane, even if I agree with her diagnosis -- she started off with Rand on the wrong foot, and then blamed him for it.

 

When the women of Randland realize that men are complementary partners in the world, and that they are just as faulted, then I think we'll like them better. But Rand may have to give the DO the ol' smack down before that happens. . .

 

sorry for the tangent . . .

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

Excellent thoughts Zoph, sometimes I want to shake the women.

 

Except Moraine, she could be my favorite character

[mmeeshal]

I'd never thought about the WoT women that way, Zoph, even though it makes perfect sense.

That was a great little "tangent" you went off on; I enjoyed it! :D

[a pale tanned lover]

Cheers for that post Zoph, i have had the same thoughts but would never have been able to explain it so eloquently!3000 year old bad habits! :D

[mcs0083]

Huaaah to the Bore! lol

[Zophiel]

Except Moraine, she could be my favorite character

 

I would agree that Moiraine is one of the exceptions-- because she saw the proverbial Light. One sees this after Rhuidean, when her approach to Rand totally changes-- she notes (to Egwene, I think) that she'd finally remembered how to control Saidar-- by surrendering to it.

 

Likewise, in the letter she writes to Rand, she notes that the White Tower has made the world dance to its tune for so long, that perhaps it is good that they will have to dance to his. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's clear that she's realized that her Pride as an Aes Sedai was messing everything up-- once she let go of that, and stopped trying to force Rand to go certain ways-- she became a lot more agreeable, likeable, and respectable. She figured it out, and so became likeable. And then went and fell through that blasted door, so we've got to hope that Mat can save her. . .

 

[interesting to note that from the beginning it seems like Lan was trying to clue Moiraine in. He mentions (I think at the beginning of GH) that the boys needed someone on "their side"-- clearly seeing Moiraine, his bonded, as someone who wasn't on their side (at least, not yet), and so he feels a desire to stand up for them, and behind them, becoming an sort-of substitute father-figure. This is also one of the bases, I think, of his relationship with Nynaeve, who often functions as a substitute big-sister].

 

Speaking of Nynaeve, I know a lot of people she irritates, but again, on the last read-through, I found myself liking her despite her unending bout with the sniffles. Her first loyalty has always been to her "boys", and she's always been very clear about that. I think she's grown quite a bit through the series, and even though she still can't get it right about Mat, I think that's more habitual thinking than honest sentiment on her part. When forced to it, she will admit that he's a fundamentaly good guy-- she's just so used to having to swat his bottom that it's hard to admit that he's grown up as well. ^_^

 

Between Birgitte, Egwene and the boiled catfern and mavins leaf, nearly drowning (and finally learning to surrender) and a Sea Folk Wedding (probably the best arrangement and exactly what she needed), she's really learning where her true strength is. She's done more for the Asha'man than any other single Aes Sedai (a point which I hope Logain, at least, appreciates), she's set her husband to get the Borders ready for TG, all because she actually cares about Rand as Rand, not as the bloody Dragon Reborn. In the beginning of the story, she always felt like she was having to prove herself, and I think this was the root of why she was so disagreeable. But since Salidar and after, she has proved herself and, Cadsuane notwithstanding, she is now more confindent in her self and her abilities. Cadsuane may intimidate her a bit, but the fact remains that as of the end of KoD, she has done more for Rand than Cadsuane, and I think she knows it. [if Cadsuane were half as intelligent as she's supposed to be, she would have taken Nynaeve and Min aside and said "Here's what I think the problem with Rand is, here's what he needs, what do you, who know him best, suggest to help him?" But no~oo, she's so caught up in what she thinks she knows, treating a Two Rivers man like a Far Madding man, which must rate the third* worst mistake in the history of the world. . . ]

 

*sigh* Yeah, I think about stuff way too much. . . but RJ had great plotting, and some really interesting thoughts he was working through. As someone with two best friends getting doctorates in theology, and a penchant for philosophy and theology myself, his books are . . . very, very interesting on whole other levels. . . ^__^

 

*The first being, of course, Never get involved in a land war in Asia and the second, Never deal with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

[mcs0083]

..........damnnnnnnnn lol

[mmeeshal]

Okay, first off, again, you rock, Zoph, and you see clearly.  ;D

 

Secondly:

*The first being, of course, Never get involved in a land war in Asia and the second, Never deal with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

 

*tacklehuggles Zoph*  You are now my hero for referencing that. ;D

[Zophiel]

*tacklehuggles Zoph*  You are now my hero for referencing that.

 

Well. . . *blushes* . . . I almost wrote " . . .must be the worst mistake in the history. . ." but then of course, remembered that there was already an Official Ranking of Worst Mistakes in the History of the World. [i'm assuming, of course, that "Never invade Russia at the beginning of winter" is a subheading under "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", both being war/ invasion related. ^_^]

 

I'm glad I made our Happy-maker happy! ^__________^ Yaaay!

[Talya]

I know where that somes from...*dances*

 

And I have to say Zoph, I really enjoyed reading it. I've just started a re read so will look at it with a new pair of eyes!