Wtf is up with the novices/accepted?

[sketching sedai]

I mean seriously, the stuff they put up with to become Aes sedai. It’s hard to imagine girls/young women willingly going along. Maybe back in the day, teens were more obedient or whatever, but today! I’m 18, just able to enrol, would I stick that crap out, no way. I don’t know any girls my age that would. Honestly, most of the added crap is really unnecessary in my opinion. 

 

• Slaving away Scrubbing floors and other make-work for no reason other than to please Aes sedai. That would really p*ss me off.

• Your room/prison doesn’t even have a flipping window. Or a lock, I don’t think.

• Crappy food. Honey for special occasions. Oh happy birthday, you can have a little honey in your tea; don’t make me laugh.

• Teen pregnancy is rampant in England. Some of my mates where pregnant in secondary school. In the tower you’re not supposed to even smile at guys. I only know a few who would go for the pillow friend thing, so can’t really see that going down well.

• Swamped with study, hardly a day off. You can’t even pull a sicky if you wanted a bloody rest; you live there for one, and they’ll just get a sister to heal you if you’re ill, and if they delve you and you’re not... lying to aes sedai is a punishable offence.

• Which brings me to the ‘discipline’. If some woman tried to bend me over a table, pull up my skirt and spank me-or any of the girls I know- with a slipper, strap, hair brush or whatever...that sh*t would get messy, FAST.

 

Yeah, some of them are petty complaints/jokes, but they would start to p*ss me of after a while. I think being Aes sedai is overrated anyway. I’d take the training I need, then quit. I’d rather keep my bloody dignity thanks.

What about you lot? Could you see the tower full today, could or would you stick it out?

 

 

[nnokwoodeye]

You forgot the enormous political power aes sedai have. Ambition can be a very good motivator.

 

Also I don't think the aes sedai give women with the spark (assuming they run into one) a lot of choices. You either go "willingly" to the tower or you would be dragged there kicking and screaming.

[sketching sedai]

Yeah, the thought of the power probably would see some through.

Imo though parts of novice/accepted lives are just uncalled for. like, why would I need to scrub floors and stuff to become aes sedai? not like I’m going to use that particular skill if I gained the shawl.

Good point though, about the being born with the spark and all that.  :D

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

All of the stuff you mentioned would certinaly irratate me to no end, but the main reason I would not deal with it, is the attitude of the Aes Sedai, they know everything, and if they do not know something, you are a fool or a liar.  No, I would not last 1 day in that pit.

[Phariah]

i agree on your POV Sketching, but i can still see its effectiveness

i survived 12 years private catholic schools  ;D

in its way its similiar lol, the AS are seen almost as a religious order ,

a woman that starts to learn is in danger of even surviving, that alone is a big draw, than don't forget that a good chunk of AS are daughters of some sorta nobility and see it as a way to gain power and than the farmers daughters that want more than sheep/ fields this is like getting a full scholarship to a college, thats a large chunka AS right there between them

most appealing is the power , i mean u get to learn about the OP , prestige of being AS, and the personal paths such as " my father died, if i knew healing i could have saved him.. i will go and  see if i can become an AS and i will join the yellow and make sure no one else suffers ", " my family was killed by DF / or trollocs i will go to the WT and see if i can become AS i will join the green and battle back the darkness "

and than they tend to hold onto the stronger channelers, they wont let u learn and run if u could become strong

 

they all start the same, its a way of showing all come from one place and follow structure to advance, a way of paying your dues (nothing is free in any world i guess )

also its a way to weed out the ones that don't really want to be there before they start to channel ( in the case of the ones that are not sparkers ) and if they channel they would be taught enough to survive and allowed to leave unless as said before they were to become powerful channelers

and don't just say AS the Kin , Wise Ones, and Windfinders are all the same if not harsher in there discipline

my guess it also serves as a way of strengthing the accepteds resolve and will so they can survive channeling

 

sorry for rambling  :-[  this wasn't a coherent thought just various reasons i thought of  :P

[Hybrid]

Also I don't think the aes sedai give women with the spark (assuming they run into one) a lot of choices. You either go "willingly" to the tower or you would be dragged there kicking and screaming.

In fact, I'd say that all the things mentioned, which I agree would not be fun at all, are far, far better than the alternative if you're a sparker.

[Mr Ares]

It’s hard to imagine girls/young women willingly going along.

No, it isn't.

Maybe back in the day, teens were more obedient or whatever

How about more driven. If you had one chance at learning how to control the Power, and becoming an Aes Sedai, would you be willing to put up with a few years of scrubbing floors? When you'll end up one of the most powerful women in the world at the end, and most probably far better off for having done it? And a lot of them are better off while being Novices than they would be at home, if they grew up on a farm.

I’m 18, just able to enrol, would I stick that crap out, no way. I don’t know any girls my age that would.

Never had to strive for anything. Don't really want to. That's what you're saying. Would I stick it out? No. I have no interest in being one of the most powerful women in the world. And power only holds attraction in that it is a means to an end. But at that age, I was content to carve my own way in life, through whoever got in my way. No scrubbing floors, but a lot more danger

 

Slaving away Scrubbing floors and other make-work for no reason other than to please Aes sedai. That would really p*ss me off.

Well, if you are prepared to give up, you obviously don't have what it takes to be Aes Sedai.

Your room/prison doesn’t even have a flipping window. Or a lock, I don’t think.

You expect luxury? Truly, the modern world is spoiled rotten.

Crappy food. Honey for special occasions. Oh happy birthday, you can have a little honey in your tea; don’t make me laugh.

The abundance of food today is not something that has been a constant throughout history. They can't just go to the local Tesco if they need something to eat.

Teen pregnancy is rampant in England. Some of my mates where pregnant in secondary school. In the tower you’re not supposed to even smile at guys. I only know a few who would go for the pillow friend thing, so can’t really see that going down well.

And if they spent all their time locked up with no access to men? Would it seem a bit more appealing? And your attitudes are shaped by the modern world.

Swamped with study, hardly a day off. You can’t even pull a sicky if you wanted a bloody rest; you live there for one, and they’ll just get a sister to heal you if you’re ill, and if they delve you and you’re not... lying to aes sedai is a punishable offence.

You expect a day off? Bloody kids today. You have it so easy, don't know you're born, etc., etc.

Which brings me to the ‘discipline’. If some woman tried to bend me over a table, pull up my skirt and spank me-or any of the girls I know- with a slipper, strap, hair brush or whatever...that sh*t would get messy, FAST.

Bring back the cane! Ah, good old corporal punishment, that old standby. If they will not listen, beat sense into them.

 

Yeah, some of them are petty complaints/jokes, but they would start to p*ss me of after a while. I think being Aes sedai is overrated anyway. I’d take the training I need, then quit.

They catch nine out of ten runaways. And your training is over when they say it is, not when you say it is. If you can't take it, they'll put you out of the Tower eventually. And then you'll have to keep your head down for the rest of your life, as a lot of people don't like channelers, or AS, and AS really don't like people pretending to be AS. So you'd be condemned to only small scale and private uses of the Power. The Tower is perfectly reasonable in the world RJ has created. Their training regimens are hard, and are meant to be. You're just too used to an easy life.

Could you see the tower full today, could or would you stick it out?

I wouldn't join in the first place, as they have nothing I want. But if I did join, I could stick it out. Or they'd put me out when they realised I was a loose cannon.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Given the power Aes Sedai wield--both politically and individually--yes, I think a little bit of discipline is in order. I'd certainly hate to meet an individual with the power to call lightning and throw fireballs who would go nuts at the concept of scrubbing floors. Petulance is fine in children, but in women who can kill hundreds of men with a simple glance...?

 

The Aes Sedai are very stupid in some very specific ways--but honestly I agree with the majority of their training standards and methods.

 

So yes, I rather imagine the question is not 'would you lower your dignity enough to become Aes Sedai?' as to 'why should you be Aes Sedai in the first place?'

 

The answer being, you shouldn't.

[WWWwombat]

Beats 3/4 chance of dying or "training losses."

[ErikTheBald]

Are we talking about the same white tower?  Where girls are practically coddled?  Compared to the positively brutal training methods in the Black Tower or what an apprentice goes through with the Aiel or the Sea Folk, the girls in the White Tower have it made in the shade. 

 

Compare the life of a Damane to an initiate of the WT and it's no contest.

 

Further, I'd call a few chores and some discipline a fair trade off in order to make a Darkfriend's head catch on fire. 

[dholm]

It really isn't bad. Most of them would have a life that is only marginally easier otherwise. There's no safety net in general, remember. Disease, famine, etc.

 

Plus, y'know, the whole living for hundreds of years thing would be pretty damn awesome. It'd certainly get me to obey.

 

As for the corporeal punishment... Heh. It's not as if you get a choice. Any Aes Sedai could handle the average novice like a kitten. Once you're there, better straighten up or you'll have a sore rear.

[JenniferL]

Its not really different than military training in some regards. You should see what US Marines go through. Its brutal. I could never do that myself. But I think I'd put up with novice training if it meant I could blow stuff up with mind when I was done with it.

[sketching sedai]

the main reason I would not deal with it, is the attitude of the Aes Sedai, they know everything, and if they do not know something, you are a fool or a liar.

I hear you, I despise people like that.

 

i agree on your POV Sketching, but i can still see its effectiveness

sorry for rambling  :-[  this wasn't a coherent thought just various reasons i thought of  :P

And good reasons they are too mate. Your arguments are sound, they definitely would give determination. I doubt they would see me through, though. I know that’s like; wtf, but it just seems too much like some sort of juvenile detention centre, I could maybe do it for a bit, but nine years as a realistic estimate!

 

And I think my original post came off rambling and stuff, yours was fine to me.

 

Mr Ares, I’m sure I came across as a spoilt teen, to you (And probably others too), so ill attempt to clarify my reasoning,somewhat.

 

I’m 18, just able to enrol, would I stick that crap out, no way. I don’t know any girls my age that would.

Never had to strive for anything. Don't really want to. That's what you're saying. Would I stick it out? No. I have no interest in being one of the most powerful women in the world. And power only holds attraction in that it is a means to an end. But at that age, I was content to carve my own way in life, through whoever got in my way. No scrubbing floors, but a lot more danger

I wouldn’t say I’ve never had to strive for anything. I put a lot of time and energy into my chosen career path; you couldn’t succeed unless you were willing to put everything into it. Admittedly aspiring to be an artist is not fraught with danger or anything, but it’s not easy.

saying that, if being pushed by myself and my tutors wasn’t it, if I was told to perform hours of unrelated and useless labour for the satisfaction of my tutors, if I could be legally imprisoned, abused/humiliated by my tutors, would I stick that crap out, no way. I’m willing to comply with what I see as reasonable, regardless of the effort required.

Although I do appreciate that *my* idea of ‘reasonable’ may be somewhat different than say yours, or anyone else’s. We’re all different.

 

Your room/prison doesn’t even have a flipping window. Or a lock, I don’t think.

You expect luxury? Truly, the modern world is spoiled rotten.

No I wouldn’t expect luxury, but I would expect a little privacy.

I don’t think wanting a window, or wanting to lock my door is spoilt. In the tower, Aes sedai just barge into your room like anything. What if I’m changing, id feel *very* uncomfortable if say someone like Elaida or the light forbid Galina walked in on me whilst I was naked. How are you supposed to ask them to leave? Would they? Or would they just start talking to you like you weren’t standing there in your skin.

Again, that’s just me.

 

Crappy food. Honey for special occasions. Oh happy birthday, you can have a little honey in your tea; don’t make me laugh.

The abundance of food today is not something that has been a constant throughout history. They can't just go to the local Tesco if they need something to eat.

Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t be like “wtf no pizza? No fried chicken? F**k this, I’m doing a runner”.

I’m just saying crap like that is not going to make me like the place any better.

 

Teen pregnancy is rampant in England. Some of my mates where pregnant in secondary school. In the tower you’re not supposed to even smile at guys. I only know a few who would go for the pillow friend thing, so can’t really see that going down well.

And if they spent all their time locked up with no access to men? Would it seem a bit more appealing? And your attitudes are shaped by the modern world.

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to sound rude or sarcastic, but I’m not sure I know what you’re getting at.

Swamped with study, hardly a day off. You can’t even pull a sicky if you wanted a bloody rest; you live there for one, and they’ll just get a sister to heal you if you’re ill, and if they delve you and you’re not... lying to aes sedai is a punishable offence.

You expect a day off? Bloody kids today. You have it so easy, don't know you're born, etc., etc.

Yeah I expect days off!  You sound like my mother Mr. Ares.

I love my mother beyond words and I sit patiently and listen attentively when she tells me how it was in her day. But yeah, I need time to my bloody self. I worked my part-time job whilst I was going college and I still found more time off than the novices get.

 

Which brings me to the ‘discipline’. If some woman tried to bend me over a table, pull up my skirt and spank me-or any of the girls I know- with a slipper, strap, hair brush or whatever...that sh*t would get messy, FAST.

Bring back the cane! Ah, good old corporal punishment, that old standby. If they will not listen, beat sense into them.

 

I hope your joking mate. I mean, seriously this is the thing that gets to me the most, the thing that would just be the last bloody straw. I would never out of choice, live in a place where any woman could have that kind of power over me.

It’s not that I have a problem with authority its self, but any sister having the right to subject me to that kind of abuse. Whether it is from the mistress of novices or her having a private lesson with me then deciding to pull me over her knee, lift my dress, and “beat some sense” into me.

I don’t f**king think so, that’s just plane sordid.

 

Yeah, some of them are petty complaints/jokes, but they would start to p*ss me of after a while. I think being Aes sedai is overrated anyway. I’d take the training I need, then quit.

They catch nine out of ten runaways. And your training is over when they say it is, not when you say it is. If you can't take it, they'll put you out of the Tower eventually. And then you'll have to keep your head down for the rest of your life, as a lot of people don't like channelers, or AS, and AS really don't like people pretending to be AS. So you'd be condemned to only small scale and private uses of the Power. The Tower is perfectly reasonable in the world RJ has created. Their training regimens are hard, and are meant to be. You're just too used to an easy life.

That’s fine with me; I wouldn’t plan on any extravagant displays of the one power, although I likely wouldn’t be capable of them anyway. Keeping my head down should also make unwanted attention from AS haters not much of an issue. I do agree with you that the tower is reasonable in the world RJ has created. Though maybe not perfectly. And spoiling novices/accepted would only breed Aes sedai even more self-important, but I have a hard time putting myself in their shoes, and imagining that system implemented on young women today, it just seems somewhat harsh, some things unnecessarily so.

I do accept that my opinions have been shaped in some ways by what society I was raised in (a very liberal one) and the generation I belong to.

[sketching sedai]

Are we talking about the same white tower?  Where girls are practically coddled?  Compared to the positively brutal training methods in the Black Tower or what an apprentice goes through with the Aiel or the Sea Folk, the girls in the White Tower have it made in the shade. 

 

Compare the life of a Damane to an initiate of the WT and it's no contest.

 

Further, I'd call a few chores and some discipline a fair trade off in order to make a Darkfriend's head catch on fire. 

I do agree that when compared to the examples provided, the tower seems like a holiday camp but I don’t think novices/accepted are ‘coddled’.

Yeah the BT and others have decidedly harsher times of their training, but, even girls like moraine found it rough. You can’t really say a rough time is not a rough time, because some other dudes have it harder.

“Oh, stop your snivelling Egwene, the Damane life is not *that* bad at all, you slaves have it made in the shade. You’d have something to cry about though if Semirhage got hold of you.”

I hope you can see my point.

I’m not 100% sure if you don’t think it’s harsh at all or you don’t think it’s harsh only by comparison to other possible training regimes, but if you don’t see anything challenging about the whole experience and find nothing rough about it whatsoever, then I can’t really say anything to that. Just agree to disagree.

And I apologise if I’ve come off like a d*ck.

Plus, y'know, the whole living for hundreds of years thing would be pretty damn awesome. It'd certainly get me to obey.

Fair points in imo, but can’t you live hundreds of years by maintain maybe like a regular low key use of the one power? Something like what the kin do, they’re supposed to live longer because of the absence of the three oaths as well, I think. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Durinax]

the main reason they can put up with it is because they would have already been exposed to the harder life associated with preindustrial cultures, they would work in kitchens/houses cleaning,baking,etc from an early age. Something contemporary people do not really do anymore, like if all washing machines quit how big of an uproar would that be? and its an pathetic but effective example lol

[Owners.Inc]

Working on farm in my part of the world is much worse (at least physically speaking) than anything the WT could put you through.

 

But then again, you're only a year younger than I am, so its not hard for me to see that you need some kind of freedom. Space within the rules.

 

The truth of the matter is that if I had the spark and was a woman, I'd prob get my head on do what i needed to and as i was told. why? basically because running away is too much work and secondly, i'd prefer working to getting my ass handed to me on a regular basis. that said, i'd prob end up like else grimwell. not so much the looking at warders part (i'd hope) but i'd definitely slack off my chores. it'd be just like school...

[dholm]

Plus, y'know, the whole living for hundreds of years thing would be pretty damn awesome. It'd certainly get me to obey.

Fair points in imo, but can’t you live hundreds of years by maintain maybe like a regular low key use of the one power? Something like what the kin do, they’re supposed to live longer because of the absence of the three oaths as well, I think. Not 100% sure though.

You certainly could, but you'd have to learn how to use it first. Given the odds of weathering the One Power Acquisition Syndrome on your own, I'd take the White Tower any day.

 

Especially since the other channeling institutions are even harder...

[sketching sedai]

the main reason they can put up with it is because they would have already been exposed to the harder life associated with preindustrial cultures, they would work in kitchens/houses cleaning,baking,etc from an early age. Something contemporary people do not really do anymore,

I agree with you there mate.

 

like if all washing machines quit how big of an uproar would that be?

But my problem wouldn’t be with having to perform necessary chores, washing my own clothes, scrubbing the floors of my room, my turn in the kitchens etc. It would lie with the fact that I’d be doing labour, unnecessary labour, that benefits no one, because Aes sedai said so.

(Quote) “Novices were always given chores. Often it was make-work, since the tower had well over a thousand serving men and women without counting labourers, but physical work helped build character, so the tower had always believed. Plus it helped keep the novices too tired to think of men, supposedly.”

Completing exhausting tasks to achieve something constructive and useful would not be off putting to me. This would build my character in a positive direction, I would have expended effort in a task that I can be proud of. But doing the same labour for nothing more than, because an Aes sedai said I should, for reasons I think are a load of crap?

If I’m going to think about men, I’m going to think about men. What’s scrubbing away going to do? What, no girl can think while doing such a boring task as scrubbing floors?

I think, maybe living for so long makes it hard to remember being young.

 

its an pathetic but effective example lol

Nah, nothing pathetic about it mate.You make valid points.   :)

 

Again, I don’t want to come off badly, so I apologise if I have.

 

 

[Durinax]

it would also depend on how you looked at what the chores teach you. IF you looked at it as if its teachign you to work within the rules, stretching them but not breaking them it would make them more bearable than their doign this just to break me

[Negawonka]

As we have seen in the books, the training methods of the White Tower are too soft for the current struggle. AS breaking down and crying is not all that uncommon in the latter books at all. Let me put it this way Sketching Sedai, all that is expected of you as an artist is to show your artistic vision through your works. These women are expected to be the ones that stand and face the dreadlords on equal footing and not back down. What may seem unrealistically hard training for you may not be enough to stand against someone who not only could turn you into a pretzel with the one power, but would not flinch at despicable acts that would have most of us cringing to think about. Fear is something we all feel, but in such a battle showing fear could lead to horrible things happening to you and the ones you love. If I were to be protected against such evil, I would worry less about how hard my protector's training was and more about how easy my protector had it. That is just my opinion.

[Lacey]

I always think of it as being akin to joining the military. You have to put up with a lot of crap that may suck, but in the end you are stronger for it (mentally and physically).

[sketching sedai]

As we have seen in the books, the training methods of the White Tower are too soft for the current struggle. AS breaking down and crying is not all that uncommon in the latter books at all. Let me put it this way Sketching Sedai, all that is expected of you as an artist is to show your artistic vision through your works. These women are expected to be the ones that stand and face the dreadlords on equal footing and not back down. What may seem unrealistically hard training for you may not be enough to stand against someone who not only could turn you into a pretzel with the one power, but would not flinch at despicable acts that would have most of us cringing to think about. Fear is something we all feel, but in such a battle showing fear could lead to horrible things happening to you and the ones you love. If I were to be protected against such evil, I would worry less about how hard my protector's training was and more about how easy my protector had it. That is just my opinion.

Let me start by saying that I really respect you opinion, mate. Guess now it’s just a matter of opinions, but I still want to offer you mine.

As you know I disagree with you. Take for example moraine, compared to an Aes sedai that breaks down crying. Both have taken the same training, but are just made of different stuff; Moiraine is like the model Aes sedai, the model representatives of the light. She’s proven she has what it takes to go up against ridicules amounts of shadow spawn, not back out or breakdown when the going gets tough, the women took on two bloody dread lords.

I’m of the opinion though, that training can only do so much. When you’re in a situation where your life’s at stake, training does help a lot, but your natural instincts are going to kick in as well. Fight or run. I’ve never done something as tough as army training as you can tell, but is it safe to say that during wars, there have been desertions amongst the army. These people have completed brutal, gruelling, training. Much tougher than that of the white tower physically, yet when the sh*t hits the fan, they can’t face it.

My argument is against the uselessness of some of the tasks the novices are subjected to, not things that are hard, but have *imo* valid reasons backing them. Training in the one power, lessons on morality, etc. That stuff should be vigorous to give the light the best fighters when it comes to the shadow. But, why all of the floor cleaning? Why can’t I have the privacy to able to lock my door for peace of mind when I’m changing or whatever?

If my clothes were somehow singed off of me during a battle, I wouldn’t start arguing with shadowspawn about a woman’s need for privacy, id get on with it.

Wanting to change in peace whilst I’m in the white tower is not going to help me win the last battle, but it’s not as if dancing around in my skin would help me either. Privacy would just be a small comfort. One I view as necessary. 

Its stuff like this that are the source of my argument. The inclusion of tasks in their regime that seem pointless to me, none beneficial to any, and for reasons that Aes sedai feel are valid and I think are kind of crap.

 

 

[Negawonka]

You also have to keep in mind that for the last twenty years Moraine has been in countless life or death situations and was lucky to escape all of them. That is the reason why she is as hard as she is now, if I remember New Spring correctly she was always pretty hard but had a bit of a temper that she has now gotten under control. Fear isn't the only thing that AS have to learn to control, Imagine if in book four she did to Rand what she did to Lan when they first met for as long as she kept it up with Lan. Rand would have probably sent her away. She eventually had to humbly beg Rand to let her stay, changing in front of others and scrubbing floors is a great way to teach both humility and composure.

[sketching sedai]

Would I behave in such a petulant and childish manner, no I wouldn’t. And especially not to someone as important as the dragon reborn. I don’t think I know a single person who would. It seems more an exaggerated devise of the author, as is the behaviour of most of the women in the series. She may have had a temper, but damn.

Your idea of humility to me sounds like, subservience. I can only speak for myself, but in my opinion, those who would actually need the lesson in humility would not gain it by being forced to obey pointless orders, to me it seems as though this would only breed bitterness.

If i went to the tower and saw Aes sedai demonstrate these amazing feats with the one power, with me barley able to touch the source, mate id be humbled. If witnessed say life saving healing by Aes sedai, if I could approach that same women and have her talk to me on a level, id feel the desire to be better because of it.

Now, I get the feeling that is not life in that place on a regular basis. You not supposed to speak to sister without them addressing you first. You are ordered to tasks, to be humbled for your assumed petulance. If I’m set to labour at a task, Is it too much to ask that there be a reason behind it, a reason that is productive. Whilst slaving away at floor tiles, I could be sitting in on something useful. I’d be humbled by their superiority in things I aspire to, but I would not be humbled by them demeaning, humiliating or abusing me.

But that’s just me. We’re all different.

 

 

[Negawonka]

You may wish to know why, and that is a perfectly logical thing to wish for, but if an AS tells you to crawl around the tower on your hands and knees for an entire day you will be expected to do so on the instant. Humility is needed for that, it is very very hard to be proud when you are doing something pointless and demeaning for no other reason than you are told. The reason that in this book the novices and accepted are trained humility is because pride does not mix well with doing whatever it takes to get the job done. AS are expected to put the tower first, they are expected if the need arises to cover themselves in gravy and run through the streets naked and anything else that might be required of the servants of all. As for subservience, anytime you are being trained by someone who calls you daughter you pretty much are already acting subservient by not correcting her.

 

It is not a very exaggerated response for anyone - male or female - to act childish from time to time. I sometimes do myself and will probably do so if I live to be eighty. No one acts their age all the time, especially when they were as young as she was then (about my age I think). Yes she was childish then, but that doesn't demean her - it only shows that she was a twenty something year old person behaving like a fourteen year old person.

 

As for bitterness, no I wouldn't say such things cause bitterness typically. To be bitter over someone just doing their job as they are instructed to do is a bit childish but overtime a person walks in that person's shoes and realizes there was no malice in what they did. Think of it this way, if you went to basic training and randomly your drill sergeant decided you were going to do flutter kicks until you had muscle failure - would you be bitter? Or would you expect everything they told you to do make sense to you at that time? To say that AS training is the same would be incorrect, but in that instance it is pretty close to the same reason.