A Sense of Doom--The Borderlander Incident

[Luckers]

This came up a few days ago in the Gathering Storm forum, so I decided I'd make a more comprehensive post on the issue--specifically, what's the big deal with the borderlanders?

 

So, the Borderlanders came south four books ago. Since then we've seen very little of them--they are mentioned alot, we meet them through Elayne, but nothing much actually goes on with them. That in itself has always said to me that something big is building there--and those things are about to come to a head.

 

The reason now is the time is simple--Rand states that he avoided the borderlanders because he did not want to mess with Elayne's buisness. They are moving past Caemlyn right now, which means Elayne's no longer a problem--and as Lan says Rand really should have dealt with the Borderlanders long ago.

 

Now, from there we have a few things (other than their simple lagging presense) pointing to coming disaster relating to the borderlanders. It starts with Bashere, Tenobia and Perrin.

 

Firstly we know that Perrin and Faile will end up with the Broken Crown of Saldaea--it's one of the first things Min sees about him. For that to occur both Tenobia and Bashere have to die--and we have some of that going on too. In CoT Min says this "And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies...". So both Tenobia and Bashere have to die, Min's seeing darkness around Bashere and there's an upcoming meeting with the Borderlanders. A bit weak so far, but what is the facilitating factor?

 

The Aes Sedai. Thirteen Aes Sedai are currently with the borderlanders, and if the Borderlanders are made ominous by the frequency in which they are mentioned yet the lack of actual action, these Aes Sedai are made down right chilling. They are never named, never seen, yet they have been mentioned many times.

 

I'll get to the point now. Specifically what I suggest is that the second time of Rand being hurt by women who can channel is at the hands of these Aes Sedai and that they take him during a meeting, during the course of which both Bashere and Tenobia are killed--Bashere's death thereby being dark for Rand, as per Min's viewing. Furthermore I also suggest that this is the second time in which Rand will need Perrin.

 

In support of this Perrin and the Borderlanders are heading directly for each other. With Tenobia and Bashere dead and Rand kidnapped, Perrin and Faile will claim the Broken Crown and lead the Borderlanders to Rand rescue.

 

So we have Min's viewings of Rand being hurt by women who can channel, of Bashere possibly dying, of Perrin getting the Broken Crown (requiring Bashere and Tenobia die), and of Rand needing Perrin all fulfilled by this incident which is already in the works with Perrin heading for the Borderlanders and Rand needing to talk to them now they are away from Elayne.

 

The only other point is the question of who the Aes Sedai are--I'm going to say Black Ajah. Which raises the question of where they came from.

 

The answer is Taim--he stated he was freed by his followers, yet it is directly stated time and again how wary warders are of attempts to free False Dragons ever since Guire Amalasan. Given the skills of Warders I don't see how they could have surprised the Aes Sedai, and we've seen what Aes Sedai can do to protect themselves even bound by the Oath. Furthermore even if Taim's followers had freed him it would have involved a rather dramatic battle--word of Dumai's Wells spread far and wide, but theres not been a whisper of Taim's freeing.

 

I suggest thirteen Black Sisters were sent to free Taim--who was a darkfriend who have a high degree of training and had done everything asked of him--and probably was already being imagined for the role he fulfils. There is even evidence in Joiya's lies about setting up Taim as a false Rand to bring bad repute on him--that it was a lie is certain, Joiya was bound not to betray the Black Ajah, which is not to say she was bound not to play with the truth, or to reveal a plan she believed was scrapped--remember Liandrin telling people the Black Ajah existed to achieve her ends. It would make sense to thread a lie with truth--it would be a very Aes Sedai thing to do.

 

In either case what I suggest is that these thirteen Aes Sedai freed Taim and set him on his course--then learnt of the break of the Tower, and decided not to return to the Tower straight away--they seperated because thirteen Aes Sedai together is a noticeable thing, and then did what Aes Sedai do best--got close to power. Just in time to run into the gathering of borderlander rulers.

 

Whether they are black or not, I believe they are the source of the upcoming confrontation with the Borderlanders.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Well, Ive just started the book with a meeting with those Borderlanders in the Prologue, I cant remember whose PoV it was but it wasnt Tenobia or Agelmar. In that persons PoV there was mention of finding Al'Thor and doing "what must be done." My theory is that they're after killing Taim.

[csarmi]

It sounds pretty convincing that something like this is going to happen, bud didn't I read it somewhere already, Any good materials/theories posted on the matter you could link to, Luckers?

[Luckers]

This idea has been around for a while, though there are no detailed threads on it that I'm aware of. There is the other thread I mentioned this in, and I have spoken about it before as has other posters like RobertAlexWillis--but I don't know it being mentioned in any of the formal websites. If it helps I'll see what I can do to address that.

[The Doctor]

They may have to change the book now that you've revealed the plot

[Mandragoran]

The BA sisters supposed to free Taim were the same ones who left the Tower with Liandrin. Joiya's confessions indicate that. Aren't all/most of those black sisters accounted for, with Elayne and the Windfinders imprisoning them in Caemlyn?

 

But yeah, those sisters with the Borderlanders are likely going to spell trouble. Sisters left to their own devices have those same prejudices about Rand and men channelling. They might see him the same as Elaida does, even if they haven't joined with her.

 

 

[Luckers]

The BA sisters supposed to free Taim were the same ones who left the Tower with Liandrin. Joiya's confessions indicate that. Aren't all/most of those black sisters accounted for, with Elayne and the Windfinders imprisoning them in Caemlyn?

 

As I addressed in the thread, Joiya's 'confession' is bull-diddy. Like all black sisters she is bound by an oath of loyalty to the Black Ajah--or at the least an oath against betraying the Black Ajah. She could not have intentionally revealed something that could have caused problems for the Black Ajah. Indeed simple evidence makes this clear anyway--Liandrin's crew went through with Amico's 'confessed' plan. They were no where near Taim when he was freed.

 

That being said, she could use elements of truth to misdirect--much like Liandrin did when she told Amalisa or the Wonder Girls that the Black Ajah exists. This would be a very Aes Sedai thing to do--tell a plan that had elements of the truth. Perhaps Liandrin spoke of this plan, but moved on to Tanchico instead and Joiya never knew that others in the Black Ajah chose to continue with it, in a way.

 

Either way what occured had eery similarities to Joiya's story. That story was false, but the similarities suggest Joiya had at least some knowledge of the real plan.

[Mandragoran]

As I addressed in the thread, Joiya's 'confession' is bull-diddy. Like all black sisters she is bound by an oath of loyalty to the Black Ajah--or at the least an oath against betraying the Black Ajah. She could not have intentionally revealed something that could have caused problems for the Black Ajah. Indeed simple evidence makes this clear anyway--Liandrin's crew went through with Amico's 'confessed' plan. They were no where near Taim when he was freed.

What Joiya confessed does come close enough to what happened. She could have revealed everything that didn't conflict with the Black Ajah oaths, which should leave a lot of room to maneuver just like with the Three Oaths. Their oaths don't even restrict them from naming each other or else Vandene would never have killed Careane.

 

Do we know the exact circumstances of how Taim was freed, except it was done by stealth and that two Aes Sedai were killed? We're not told how many black sisters were involved in freeing him afaik. All or some of those remaining 11 black sisters could have freed Taim since leaving Tear, before heading for Tanchico if they were using the Ways.

 

Just seems like a leap to base that section of the theory on. There's just not enough information to go on. I don't see why Taim's BA (if they were involved in freeing him) have to do anything with the Borderlanders. It could be a completely unrelated bunch of Black sisters or more likely, there are only a few among them just like in every other gathering of Aes Sedai. They could still prove dangerous.

 

 

[BKVMC]

Another oddity  about those 13 sisters with the borderlanders, when merilile  went to  speak  with the rulers she met  none of the aea sedai with them i  find it difficult to believe they didnt  approach  her  and prod her a bit  iirc  she states she didnt even see them, so they avoided her  on purpose or  they turned her.

 

Then elayne visits  and they werent  breathing over those  rulers shoulders  which i found  especially odd given these sisters are not from salidar  and  wouldnt believe  elayne was an aes sedai of the green ajah to show no interest is  very un aes sedai like.

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Just a couple thoughts:

 

*  A confrontation does seem likely.  They've been way, way too quiet & absent from the story.  Never quite understood what "Must be Done"

 

*  There are undoubtedly 13 AS with them.  Elayne saw some when in camp, dind't know any?  Alviarin never mentions them!  Elaida never mentions them!  Egwene & the other rebel never mention them.  Very suspicious.

 

*  Joiya's confession to the girls after capture creates one very loose link to the possibility that some AS or BA may have helped Taim escape.  No direct proof. 

 

*  I believe the 2 sisters that died were on the light side.  Did this come up in an Elaida / Alviarin POV?  Funny there is no hint to there being AS involved with Taim's escape.  Not from Elaida, Alviarin, Mesaana, Rebels, Egwene, etc. 

 

*  I think that if Luckers' theory does come true, there will have to be a combination with Rand's current forces, led by Cadsuane.  Should be interesting to see how she gets along with Perrin, the Wise Ones and their AS Trainees!

 

 

[mb]

It seems doubtful that there was Aes Sedia help in rescuing Taim.

Generally Aes Sedia involvement in any situation does not get forgotten.  And there is not even a rumor of Aes Sedia help in this situation.

Also; if they did free Taim, staying in the country might cause more suspicion than there is now.

And Aes Sedia doing it could have been done without any deaths.

 

Because of those, Taim's rescue seems more likely done by his followers than by Aes Sedia.

Shadow Rising tells that 2 Aes Sedia were killed and that it was done during night.

The followers would likely know more of the country than Aes Sedia; which helps in night situations.

Very likely the Aes Sedia & Warders were tired.  Shielding when tired would be more difficult than when awake.

Maybe the Aes Sedia stayed at an inn; the inn people might have helped and/or might have been the ones that done it.  Perhaps the village Wisdom was also involved; like giving the Aes Sedia & Warders herbs.

 

 

Mesaana's order for Alviarin to send Aes Sedia to kidnap Tenobia might be a more likely reason for the Aes Sedia and were made prisoners in the attempt.  Maybe letters by pigeons were sent.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I think the Borderlanders are mad at Rand for keeping Taim alive, and that they are setting out to see Taim dead, whatever Rand thinks. Just a thought though, nothing to support it

[Mandragoran]

I think the Borderlanders are mad at Rand for keeping Taim alive, and that they are setting out to see Taim dead, whatever Rand thinks. Just a thought though, nothing to support it

Tenobia's orders to Davram do support it actually. I don't think any of the Borderlanders could be fond of Taim or Rand's amnesty.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the Borderlanders are mad at Rand for keeping Taim alive, and that they are setting out to see Taim dead, whatever Rand thinks. Just a thought though, nothing to support it

Tenobia's orders to Davram do support it actually. I don't think any of the Borderlanders could be fond of Taim or Rand's amnesty.

 

Yeah plus as I said the Borderlander leader we got a PoV from mentioned finding Rand and doing what must be done, thats what made me think they're going after Taim. The Aes Sedai with them could have other motives though, of course.

[Ziggdiezan]

could Rand being hurt by channerlers be him getting killed at the last battle?  like in Egwene's acceptence thing when she couldnt kill Rand with the dagger. Maby now he will be like about to die or taken by 13 Black Ajah and Egwene kill's him with the power. Or also he could get someone to still him then heal him to see if it does something to his growing madness. just my 2 cents

[chuckievi]

If they are going after Taim, why are they moving away from the Black Tower towards Rand then?  If you want to try to kill a man who can channel who is surrounded by other men who can channel, going to his "boss" and asking permission seems a bit odd.  Why wouldn't they just attempt to launch a "surprise" strike?

[Theodor89]

I think the Borderlanders are mad at Rand for keeping Taim alive, and that they are setting out to see Taim dead, whatever Rand thinks. Just a thought though, nothing to support it

Tenobia's orders to Davram do support it actually. I don't think any of the Borderlanders could be fond of Taim or Rand's amnesty.

 

And why would the other borderland rulers support Saldeas action against a dethroned false dragon? And sending away over one hundred thousand men after Taim seems a litte overkill.

[Perrin 187]

I don't think the borderlands besides Saldea would care much for Taim, although I think Tenobia will have some strong words for Lord Bashere and she seems like a lady who wouldn't hesisate to confront Rand about Taim and absolving him of his crimes against the country.

 

But I think the Borderlanders want to ally with Rand and be sure he is the dragon reborn. I think the 13 aes sedai are the ones whom mean ill to Rand.

[Tyrell]

Whatever they mean to do, taking half their combined armies with them is massive overkill, unless they intend to fight Rand / Taim in a pitched battle, to be honest.

[Perrin 187]

Whatever they mean to do, taking half their combined armies with them is massive overkill, unless they intend to fight Rand / Taim in a pitched battle, to be honest.

RAFO

[wavemistresstrammell]

I agree that they're mad that Taim is still alive, at least Tenobia is. But I always figured they planned on forcing Rand to go with them to the borderlands because he hasn't directed his attention their way at all. I kind of thought that was why the Aes Sedai were with them. *shrugs*

[Phariah]

well i dont see an army no matter the size with only 13 Aes Sedai going to try an attack the Black Tower / Taim  8)

they would be slaughtered ;D

on the other hand they have been defending the Blight Border so long and they know they battle for TG will be at SG and they feel the Dragon is wasting his time w/ the southerners , meanwhile Rand knows from the Finn that he needs to unite the the lands to be able to win TG , no matter the fact how honorable they are the Borderlands Lords and Ladies are, it's just another case of "we know best " ,looking w/ their own perspective  ::)

the way Rand travels around now w/ Asha'man and Aes Sedai i think the 13 Aes Sedai in that Borderlands army would be ,if anything, a minor inconvienance if they did anything  ;)

[mb]

could Rand being hurt by channerlers be him getting killed at the last battle?

Rand is prophesied to die during the Last Battle.

The second time for Perrin to rescue will most likely be before then.

 

The viewing only tells that Perrin would need to be there to prevent Rand from dieing.  It tells nothing about the kind of situation.

 

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

What do the borderland rulers want with Rand?  They are bringing all of their armies.  That could mean that they want to attack him, but I don't think so.  Considering the words and actions of the rulers in the prologue to tPoD, something else is going on:

this fellow who claimed to be the Dragon Reborn—perhaps he was; she could not decide which way would be worse

 

Well, if the White Tower would not or could not do what had to be done, then someone must. What good to guard the Blight if the world did crumble behind her?

 

The world will know us soon enough, and what we’ve done. Or tried to do. We’ll end dead or in the histories or both

 

Too many rulers to the south had died or vanished in the last year for her to feel any comfort in wearing a crown. Too many lands had been smashed as thoroughly as an army of Trollocs could have achieved. Whoever he was, this al’Thor fellow had much to answer for. Much.

 

“If we’ve been seen, Ethenielle,” he grumbled, “then we might as well turn back now.”

 

Does anyone believe we truly can turn back now?

 

“Further south,” Easar added, “it may be well to have thirteen Aes Sedai with us.”

 

Now they had to find Rand al’Thor. And do what needed to be done. Whatever the price.

 

As for the 13 AS, Coladara Sedai, the adviser to Paitar of Arafel, became aware of the borderlanders plans and she suddenly gets 7 visiting Aes Sedai who tag along.  Tenobia runs into 5 more Aes Sedai as she is leaving Saldaea, and they are surprised to see her there.  Illeisien Sedai, their leader, learns of the borderlander's plans and urges secrecy. 

 

Based on this information, the borderland rulers are going to meet with Rand.  They are wary of him and might decide to attack him, but that is not the plan at the moment.  They are not convinced that he is the DR.  They want to bring peace to the south, but that seems too obvious for all the secrecy and tension.  There seems to be something really important on the line, which is secret and must not be discovered for some reason.  What could be going on here?

[OptimusPrime]

Whatever they mean to do, taking half their combined armies with them is massive overkill, unless they intend to fight Rand / Taim in a pitched battle, to be honest.

 

They said they had to find Rand and do what must be done. They are Borderlanders; for all we know they could say to Rand "we want Taim dead, or were going to fight about it."