Rand : Insane or something else?

[Phariah]

i dont feel Rand has gone bonkers or is as close as people think either, the way i see Rand is in some sort of failed Possession ( him being Taveren , his strong-willed/ stubborn two rivers upbringing, luck? ??? )

and in a way it fits Min's vision of him and another man touching an than 1 dies an other lives ( Min's visions are somewhat abstract at times )

because we see it mentioned once in EotW by Thom and never again i get an odd feeling it is an important foreshadowing :-X

after Min's tells him of  her vision Rand get relieved because he sees it as a conformation of LTT being real an not a figment of his mind

the fact he is so harsh / odd in how he reacts i mean it has to be expected : he has LTT in his head , he knows from Finn he should expect to die  to win TG, also he knows to win TG he must united the nations ( come-on thats a ton of stress dealing with all the nations that squabble for monetary /selfish reasons that he has to watch over not including conquering anyone that says no) , wondering when a forsaken will pop up, the fact that u love 3 women an they love u , trying to obliquely protect the two-rivers from harm so that no one notices that u care about it,Rand as an honorable an chivalrous man must really suffer when a woman dies for him ( that is major mental anguish )

all that is the cause for his attitude an emotional high strung attitude ( if it was me id be sitting in a corner of a room rocking back an forth on my heels  crying non stop ) :'(

so to me LTT is a past life possession sorta an not a product of his insanity

and the way Semi talks about how Greandal has had small success of re-integration , sounds like a past life exorcism  ;)

since Semi was from AoL maybe thats how they described a possession ( past life speaking or gaining control of an individual ), she calls it a rare form of mental insanity i think

[Muad Cheade]

I agree with you. I don't think he's insane. I just believe he's slowly losing touch with his humanity. I mean he's consistently seeing the worse attributes of the people he's sacrificing for and destined to give his life for. It seems and I know it does in his view, that nearly everyone is short sighted in respect to Tarmon Gai'don (especially the nobles).

 

I'm not completely sure about Lews Therin Telamon's voice in his head. Moridin's presence is explained: they crossed balefire streams and he also doesn't talk as LTT does. However, Lews Therin isn't a voice Rand's having conversations with in his head. He's another life, if that makes sense. Rand remembers places and people he's never head of before and it makes sense with what Semirhage was saying about Graendal and re-integration.

 

I think Semirhage was exaggerating because it would help if there was dissenion in the ranks and his followers thought Rand was going insane if he were not already. I do believe there was a kernel of truth there though.

 

What is re-integration exactly? Is it the two souls becoming one or is it the voice in the head being removed?

 

Also, here's a random theory that fits into the first meaning of re-integration. Is it possible the re-integration is happening already? Rand is already learning skills that Lews Therin had: his skill of drawing, his talent with musical instruments, and some could say his military prowess. Lews Therin has also continued to reach for saidin and has succeeded a few times. Just a theory though.

 

I do agree with Sorilea and Cadsuane. With Rand in his current state, winning might be as bad as losing.

 

I have a random question: If a man who's insane knows he's insane, is he therefore insane?

[Toy and Minion]

Who said insanity was a bad thing?  Maybe insanity is the only thing keeping him together.

[Muad Cheade]

Who said insanity was a bad thing?  Maybe insanity is the only thing keeping him together.

 

Well, insanity in my book means that one cannot differentiate from right and wrong and friends and foe. That happened when Lews Therin Telamon went mad and since Rand is the most powerful person in the world, insanity would not be very beneficial.

[Toy and Minion]

Well, madness and insanity.  Are they truly the same thing?

[mb]

The touching part of Min's viewing I take to be the balefire incident at the end of the book.

 

I had a theory that Lews Therin took Rand's body.

I explained it more in this thread:

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41073.0.html

 

[Toy and Minion]

I have a theory that if Rand were still sane, he would have cracked by now.  So, in essence, his insanity is keeping him sane.

[Mr Ares]

and the way Semi talks about how Greandal has had small success of re-integration, sounds like a past life exorcism

No, it doesn't, it sounds like the complete opposite. Exorcising it would be getting rid of it, reintegrating it would be merging them into one. DFifferent words, different meanings.

since Semi was from AoL maybe thats how they described a possession ( past life speaking or gaining control of an individual ), she calls it a rare form of mental insanity i think

Yes, it's completely plausible that in an advanced age they would refer to a rare form of madness as a possession.

"Dissociative Identity Disorder? Nonsense, you've been possessed by a demon. Drink a pint of holy water every day, and pray regularly and it will soon go away."

 

What is re-integration exactly? Is it the two souls becoming one or is it the voice in the head being removed?

Well, it can't be the two souls becoming one, because there's only one soul involved. However, there are two personalitites, and it refers to the two personalitites becoming one. Simply removing, or exorcising, one would be quite different to what we are told. So they will become one again. Bit of Rand, bit of LTT, all as one person.

 

If a man who's insane knows he's insane, is he therefore insane?

Yes. Like you said, he's insane.

 

I have a theory that if Rand were still sane, he would have cracked by now. So, in essence, his insanity is keeping him sane.

"His madness... His madness keeps him sane."

"And do you think he is the only one, my sister?"

-Delirium and Dream, in SANDMAN #31: "Three Septembers and a January"

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote

If a man who's insane knows he's insane, is he therefore insane?

Yes. Like you said, he's insane.

 

Generally speaking if you think your insane your not.

I think Semirhage was exaggerating because it would help if there was dissenion in the ranks and his followers thought Rand was going insane if he were not already. I do believe there was a kernel of truth there though.

 

I'm of the belief that Rand has been affected by the taint, but that LTT in his head isn't from the taint, and that the reason Semi decided to disclose this information wasn't too cause rifts among Rands followers, it was said to keep Rand off balance, now everyone is going to be on edge around him, his paranoia is going to go through the roof and its going make him even harder. What better way to defeat your enemy then letting him destroy himself. Of course Graendal background in this field would make her an expert in knowing what affect this would have on Rand. Therefore any mutterings about "why would Semi lie? she must be telling the truth" can be discredited as being the reason why LTT is a part of Rands madness.

 

[Mr Ares]

If a man who's insane knows he's insane, is he therefore insane?

Yes. Like you said, he's insane.

Generally speaking if you think your insane your not.

Firstly, can you learn how to use the quote function correctly? It's not hard to master, and it makes it a lot easier if I don't have to sort it out when I reply. Secondly, he said a man who is insane, not a man who thinks he is insane. A man who is insane is insane, clearly, whether or not he thinks he is.

[a pale tanned lover]

Here was me thinking you enjoyed sorting out my quotes Mr Ares  :D I copy then press quote button then paste....if you could point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

[Jillain Sanche]

Well, I do not think we entirely know, yet, if he is truly insane. There have been many passages where he was worrying about whether he was or not, or denying that he had yet gone over. But the question of what the level of his mental functioning is at the point of the end of KoD is somewhat in question. He also has worried endlessly on making himself harder, and those around him are worried by this development with him, yet he remains naive enough to walk into traps again and again. How does one sanely deal with learning that one is the Dragon Reborn? And hearing a dead man speak in his head of things that only said dead man would know?

 

Insanity means that one can no longer know reality from what is not real (not right from wrong--there are many people who have mental illnesses who know right from wrong!). Does Rand know reality from fantasy? From perceptions that are not based in reality?

 

Having only read the series one time so far, I am not entirely clear on how much time has passed for Rand since Winternight in the Two Rivers, but he is for sure still a very young man. He has gone through so many changes so quickly, under great pressures including the prophecies and the expectation that everything is quickly building toward his taking on the D.O. Also, just as he had finally begun to trust Moiraine, she fell taking out Lanfear (into the hands of the Finns, but he does not yet know that).

I think there is no question that Cadsuane will be able to get through one way or another, to the extent needed to make things come together right for Rand to realise his destiny.

[Mr Ares]

Here was me thinking you enjoyed sorting out my quotes Mr Ares  :D I copy then press quote button then paste....if you could point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

A quote has to end with this: Yours often end with this: /quote], cutting off the opening bracket.

[dmvdc]

Do we want to know?

 

Or do we prefer this to be a Hamlet-style situation, where there's just enough evidence for both sides to wage an eternal debate about it?

 

(I'm not knocking eternal debate, by the way. That's half the fun of life. :D)

 

 

[Kelitor]

I'm of the opinion that Rand is entirely insane.

 

 

Insane doesn't always mean howling at the moon and foaming at the mouth.

 

Like Rand, sometimes it just means going on and on about how trust is for fools, no one can be trusted, refusing to feel emotion, and being indifferent to having your hand blasted off.

[Mandragoran]

I'm of the belief that Rand has been affected by the taint, but that LTT in his head isn't from the taint,

I believe LTT has always been a silent part of Rand but the taint did awaken him, much to Rand's detriment. Now Rand is both fighting and having to collaborate with an alternate personality that can at times overcome him.

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Like Rand, sometimes it just means going on and on about how trust is for fools, no one can be trusted, refusing to feel emotion, and being indifferent to having your hand blasted off.

 

Events and circumstances led to Rand being like this, like Dumai's Wells, none of these reasons point towards being insane, just towards having too be hard.

 

I believe LTT has always been a silent part of Rand but the taint did awaken him, much to Rand's detriment. Now Rand is both fighting and having to collaborate with an alternate personality that can at times overcome him.

 

Since men channelers jump in their power, it could have been this that opened the connection to LTT

[The Doctor]

I don't think he is insane, I just think he is overly stubborn and unwilling to adapt to certain realities.

[riigvroq]

i agree with the doctor, rand isn't insane. the fact that he doesn't trust a lot of people has it's explanations. everyone knows why he doesn't trust aes sedai or asha'man. most others he doesn't trust are to close to either of these.

 

that he talks with LTT is disturbing. he claims that he can recognize the FS which implies that it is the real LTT but LTT also only talk about stuff know i this age. he never coments on other then stuff rand could have read. and that rand learned new weaves could be that he learns them himself. i long shot but still.

 

i still belive LTT is real and that Rand is sane but there are evidens for both.

[Hybrid]

I don't think he is insane, I just think he is overly stubborn and unwilling to adapt to certain realities.

I'm not insane either.  The voices told me to do it.

 

the fact that he doesn't trust a lot of people has it's explanations.

Such as paranoia.  Possibly realistic, but still not a healthy mindset.

[Cursedmage]

in·san·i·ty

 

1: a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)

2: such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility

3 a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable

 

That is Websters definition of insanity, and from reading that I think he might qualify for the fist entry, but no to the second two.

 

de·range

 

1 : to disturb the operation or functions of

2 : disarrange <hatless, with tie deranged — G. W. Stonier>

3 : to make insane

With that being the definition for deranged, I would say LTT only disrupted the operation of rands brain, or personality, or actions, one time, in that when LTT actually took control in KoD, but it did happen so I think rand just might be insane.  As for LTT being an actual being or imaginary friend, I don't think it matters in the context of his sanity, because according to the definition of insantiy, LTT in any form would qualify, in my opinion, as a "specific disorder".

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Such as paranoia.  Possibly realistic, but still not a healthy mindset.

It's not paranoia if everyone IS looking at you  :D

 

@Cursedmage, if Perrin was to give into his wolf side he would lose control and become a wolf, he's not insane so by the same theory you cannot define Rand as insane.

[Cursedmage]

Such as paranoia.  Possibly realistic, but still not a healthy mindset.

It's not paranoia if everyone IS looking at you  :D

 

@Cursedmage, if Perrin was to give into his wolf side he would lose control and become a wolf, he's not insane so by the same theory you cannot define Rand as insane.

 

But if Perrin gave into his wolf side he would be a wolf, in his mind of course, which would dictate his actions, and in being a wolf he would be sane, a sane wolf.  Also losing control was not part of Webster's def, it said to disrupt the function of, and I think LTT disrupted the function of Rands channeling in KoD, when he, LTT, with Rands aid, almost killed everyone,and I think the key point is that Rands brain has two personalities, and they work against one another often.  Where as Perrin, would not have a split personality disorder, in fact I think, he would be consistent in being a savage wolf, and that would not be a mental disorder, because it is operating as intended.

 

You might say Rand's brain is operating as intended, but I don't believe nature ever designed anybody to have a personality disorder.  Real or not, in terms of LTT living inside Rands mind, it would still be a conflict and is, as shown in the readings.  Perrin going savage wolf would not be a personality disorder.

[a pale tanned lover]

But if Perrin gave into his wolf side he would be a wolf, in his mind of course, which would dictate his actions, and in being a wolf he would be sane, a sane wolf.  Also losing control was not part of Webster's def, it said to disrupt the function of, and I think LTT disrupted the function of Rands channeling in KoD, when he, LTT, with Rands aid, almost killed everyone,and I think the key point is that Rands brain has two personalities, and they work against one another often.  Where as Perrin, would not have a split personality disorder, in fact I think, he would be consistent in being a savage wolf, and that would not be a mental disorder, because it is operating as intended.

 

You might say Rand's brain is operating as intended, but I don't believe nature ever designed anybody to have a personality disorder.  Real or not, in terms of LTT living inside Rands mind, it would still be a conflict and is, as shown in the readings.  Perrin going savage wolf would not be a personality disorder.

 

Perrin has had too fight his wolf side overcoming him, that is a personality taking full control, the same as Rand and LTT, the reason that neither has is because both Rand and Perrin's personality have stopped this from happening. Also one is an animal and one is human so there are bound to be variations.

But if Perrin gave into his wolf side he would be a wolf, in his mind of course, which would dictate his actions, and in being a wolf he would be sane, a sane wolf.

 

Like the man/wolf who was locked in a cage by his brother? evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Cursedmage]

But if Perrin gave into his wolf side he would be a wolf, in his mind of course, which would dictate his actions, and in being a wolf he would be sane, a sane wolf.  Also losing control was not part of Webster's def, it said to disrupt the function of, and I think LTT disrupted the function of Rands channeling in KoD, when he, LTT, with Rands aid, almost killed everyone,and I think the key point is that Rands brain has two personalities, and they work against one another often.  Where as Perrin, would not have a split personality disorder, in fact I think, he would be consistent in being a savage wolf, and that would not be a mental disorder, because it is operating as intended.

 

You might say Rand's brain is operating as intended, but I don't believe nature ever designed anybody to have a personality disorder.  Real or not, in terms of LTT living inside Rands mind, it would still be a conflict and is, as shown in the readings.  Perrin going savage wolf would not be a personality disorder./quote]

 

Perrin has had too fight his wolf side overcoming him, that is a personality taking full control, the same as Rand and LTT, the reason that neither has is because both Rand and Perrin's personality have stopped this from happening. Also one is an animal and one is human so there are bound to be variations.

 

 

Its been about a year since my third read threw of the books.  I can only recall one time when Perrin turned savage, and I believe, knowing that I could be wrong, it was in LoC, at the battle at the wells, when Perrin wanted to throw down his weapon and fight with tooth and nail.  There was another moment, in TEoTW, where he killed the two Whitecloaks, but I do not think he was in danger at the time of turning over to a wolf nor do I think the readers at the time knew about the dangers of that.  Compared to rand losing full control to LTT, Perrin didn't even come close to losing his current personality, and Rand went far beyond the boarders of control.  One more thing about Rand, is that he is inconstant with his transformation, meaning he went from Rand to Lews and back to Rand, it would be like a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly and then transforming back to a caterpillar.  Dose that sound sane?  Perrin, on the other hand would be a one time transformation, and therefore would be constant, like the caterpillar transforming once into a butterfly.  However, I don't believe Perrin really ever had a problem with becoming a savage wolf, it was just a real concern and fear. 

 

If you know of any quotes where Perrin almost losses his self I would be interested, and if you are going to quote from the wolf dream, where Perrin appears as a wolf in the flesh, I think he understood he was Perrin the whole time and never lost control on himself just his temper and disposition towards self preservation.