Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Dmitri]

Mr. Ares, I'm beginning to believe that you are no more than a troll.  I've followed your posts in several threads, and you seem to have a penchant for arrogance, and general rudeness.  I know that I'm fairly new here, but I believe that I can speak for others when I say that it's not appreciated.

 

You, as a new person, can speak only for yourself, 'cos (in case of Mr Ares) he's one of most sane persons on this Forum, with a good deal of critical views, of course  ;)

 

Look the "Who killed Asmodean" thread (yeah, that 160-pages thing) to see better what I mean.

 

 

[Kryshah]

You, as a new person, can speak only for yourself, 'cos (in case of Mr Ares) he's one of most sane persons on this Forum, with a good deal of critical views, of course  ;)

 

I'm speaking primarily about another member that decided to abandon this forum after a completely irrelevant grammatical arguement over the last week or so.  But, I suppose I shouldn't make hasty judgements until I've been here a bit longer.  I'll withdraw my comment concerning arrogance and rudeness for the time being and assume that he is just far more blunt that I'm generally comfortable with. 

 

Mr. Ares, I appologize if I've made hasty judgement. 

 

 

[Redstone Doorway]

Just as a side note - I seem to recall a quote by RJ (or perhaps from somewhere else?) saying that the reason Lanfear was stilled was because Moiraine ripped the angreal from her hands while she was channeling through it. Or am I misremembering?

[Juggler]

that matt losing an eye to save moiraine seems about right. It makes sense she will have got something to help defeat the DO whilst through the doorway. I still think Rand will give her the sun throne but not until after TG her and Thom together would be the ultimate force in the game of houses and where better to play than in Cairhien after the DO has been defeated, her blue ajah cause completed the world put right I don't think her claim is any weaker than Elaynes both are linked through the same house and she would be very firmly in Rands camp.

 

Why must moiraine be stilled? surely if matt can die and come back to life moiraine can the finn left him hanging. the bond would pass on at instant of death and she could be resussatated(sp?) maybe to rape her mind.

[fikkie77]

You're posing an interesting question: what happens to the warder bond when someone is resussitated?

[Juggler]

It may not have come up before because Aes sedai seem to give up trying to heal someone when they are dead they don't seem to think like a normal person like when rand saved matt using CPR. I imagine only Nyneave or the kin would think to try that if they were there at time of death. When cairhien steward was hurt (sorry minds a sudden blank) the Aes sedai was trying to be careful healing him as the healing may kill him, would it have been possible to heal him regardless then try CPR once dead? would think that an obvious process for anyone medically minded. the AS seem to think if it can't be done with the power there is no point doing it.

I would have thought AS would have died in wars before this but never has an AS been shown trying mundane healing other than nynaeve, they are too arogant.

 

Quick question, does anyone know if moiraine had been through the rhuidean door before the attack of lanfear? I think she hadn't otherwise mention of what she gained may have been mentioned. However maybe lanfear HAD been there before which is why she ended up dead and in another body which couldn't handle the power as well as her previous one explaining her weakened powers, and why the door melted when they both went through becuase she bypassed the strictures saying 1 visit.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd go for that if we didn't have Mat as an example.

 

In Tear, he wasn't satisfied with the answers he got and tried to return through the doorway to get some clarification.  The twisted doorway simply didn't do anything because he'd already been through it once.

 

Seems logical the two doorways would obey the same principle of only allowing a single visit.  Meaning Lanfear would have gone nowhere if she'd already been through that doorway.

[Dmitri]

Why must moiraine be stilled? surely if matt can die and come back to life moiraine can the finn left him hanging. the bond would pass on at instant of death and she could be resussatated(sp?) maybe to rape her mind.

 

Mat hadn't died in Rhuidean, he had been hanging from the tree long enough to be almost dead (RJ's words).

 

If he died, no matter how good Rand is at CPR, it wouldn't help.  :-\

 

So, he wasn't resurrected, neither will be Moiraine. Finns doo not seem to have such power, anyway.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

As Mardragon stated, the ter'angreal was fully functional when Moiraine went through the first time.

And both the ToG and the other doorway remain functional, and the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn are connected. Therefore, there remain connections with Randland.

We also know that bonds fade with distance, who is to say that Finn-land isn't so far distant from Randland that it would seem as though the bond was cut when the door was destroyed?

Aside from the fact this speculation is not supported by any evidence, we also know that the other doorway, and thus a connection to Randland, remained in existence.

 

Again, the door was fully functional when Moiraine stepped through it.

And the Tower and other doorway remain funtional.

 

You're right, we have no evidence. You're conclusion implies that we have enough information to conclude that she was stilled, but unless you somehow know all laws of physics in Randland I suggest you stop assuming that you know all possible outcomes.

There is no evidence to suggest any other outcome. The only one supported by the evidence is that she was severed.

 

Stilling doesn't always cause a loss of strength.

Only when Healed by someone of the same gender. The only thing we know of that can cause the drop of strength seen in Cyndane is being Healed by a woman. Therefore this is the most likely conclusion.

But she wasn't healed, her soul was transfered to a different body.

And then Healed.

Lanfear is in a different body, thus her ability to channel has been diminished.

Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar all maintain the same strengths and Talents as they had in their original bodies. The only change we see in Cyndane is a loss of strength. Therefore it is unreasonable to conclude that a change of body results in a change of strength. Quite the reverse. While there is a genetic component to channeling, the evidence we have suggests that strength remains constant across the transmigratory process. Cyndane's loss of strength is an aberration, but given the likelihood of her being burnt out prior to her death - she was held prisoner by the Finns, and channeling would have helped her escape, and messing around with ter'angreal is known to be dangerous - it is therefore likely that she needed to be Healed by a woman, and thus lost strength as a result.

 

You speak as a trained scientist.

I'm not, though.

and by your routinely unkind words I seriously doubt that you are Brandon Sanderson.

Plus, his account on here has the user name Brandon Sanderson.

So the conclusion that I've come to that you don't know everything about Randland and have used your own assumptions to come to your half-baked conclusions.

Your conclusion is wrong, and doesn't take all the evidence into account. For example, a lot of people support this theory, and it has been argued in many threads.

 

We cannot say this with reasonable certainty.

We can. We know of only two things that could induce the reaction seen, and we know she didn't die. Therefore she was either severed from the Source, or something happened that has no evidence to support, that has not been so much as hinted at over the course of eleven books. Eleven books with not a clue to support it, against a theory supported by evidence. Which does your background tell you is more reasonable to support? I take it you have heard of Occam's Razor?

 

I know that I'm fairly new here, but I believe that I can speak for others when I say that it's not appreciated.

And I know I can speak for myself when I say I don't care. Also, a lot of people on here do like me.

 

Why in the world is this showing up as a quote?

Because you had a [ quote] where you should have had a [ /quote]. (Minus the spaces, of course.)

 

This bit is a leap of faith but i think it makes sense, this holding prisoner and rakeing through her memories is the payment part of her bargin with them.

Why would they bargain with her? She destroyed a valuable trade route. Why not just take her prisoner and ransack her memories.

 

If not, if no-one has anything, then there is no evidence to support other possibilities.

No evidence to support? 'no evidence at this moment to support' would be more accurate.  Other evidence might come up in the future.

Severed than being Healed does seem the most likely possibility, but it is not the only possibility.

It is the only possibility supported by evidence. And the distinction you draw is meaningless. There is no evidence. Present tense. Not "there never will be any evidence to support any other possibility".

 

You, as a new person, can speak only for yourself, 'cos (in case of Mr Ares) he's one of most sane persons on this Forum

And I'll kill anyone who says otherwise!

 

Just as a side note - I seem to recall a quote by RJ (or perhaps from somewhere else?) saying that the reason Lanfear was stilled was because Moiraine ripped the angreal from her hands while she was channeling through it. Or am I misremembering?

I thnk you're misremembering. While that has been suggsted on the boards as a possible explanation, I've never seen an RJ quote to confirm it.

 

Why must moiraine be stilled?

Because that's what the evidence says.

surely if matt can die and come back to life

When hit by lightning and his killer is balefired. CPR is not resurrection.

 

You're posing an interesting question: what happens to the warder bond when someone is resussitated?

Nothing.

[del821]

MB

Quote from: del821 on June 24, 2009, 10:42:47 AM

This bit is a leap of faith but i think it makes sense, this holding prisoner and rakeing through her memories is the payment part of her bargin with them.

MB

"Why would they bargain with her? She destroyed a valuable trade route. Why not just take her prisoner and ransack her memories."

 

Because they play to rules. Admittedly we dont know what they are but i doubt capture and mind rape is one of them or the doorway would have been blocked/warded off or whatever. We do know they play to rules though because to beat them you have to break their rules.

[Kryshah]

Mr. Ares,  Good arguement.  I concede.  I still hold the belief that we don't necessarily know what happened, but I'm willing to accept stilling as a working hypothesis.

 

For the record however, popularity has never been a keen indicator of pleasant disposition.  People may like you for whatever reasons, but that doesn't make you're demeanor more agreeable.

[Kelitor]

I think Moiraine's purpose is to return to Rand. When he sees her he gets all emotional because he thought her death was his fault. He runs off. Cadsuane comes and finds him moping in his rooms with a few Asha'man and proceeds to yell/slap/mock him basically telling him that Moiraine and all the other Aes Sedai and Maidens made their own choices, and he has to let them take responsibility etc etc.

 

 

In summary, when Moiraine returns, Rand will finally realize that he can't take responsibility for everyone. He'll cry like a baby in front of Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine and everyone, finally let that list go,

 

and I'll say tentatively that Lews Therin will get over Ilyena to some degree. At the very least he'll stop throwing emo fits in Rand's head going "Oh Light! Ilyena!" and crap like that.

[Kryshah]

I think Moiraine's purpose is to return to Rand. When he sees her he gets all emotional because he thought her death was his fault. He runs off. Cadsuane comes and finds him moping in his rooms with a few Asha'man and proceeds to yell/slap/mock him basically telling him that Moiraine and all the other Aes Sedai and Maidens made their own choices, and he has to let them take responsibility etc etc.

 

 

In summary, when Moiraine returns, Rand will finally realize that he can't take responsibility for everyone. He'll cry like a baby in front of Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine and everyone, finally let that list go,

 

and I'll say tentatively that Lews Therin will get over Ilyena to some degree. At the very least he'll stop throwing emo fits in Rand's head going "Oh Light! Ilyena!" and crap like that.

 

I don't know that I agree with this completely, as there are many other factors that weight in on this; such as Mats role and whatever reasons that Moiraine had to go back to Finnland to begin with.  I do like the prospect of some emotional healing at the hands of Moiraine, Min and Cadsuane however.  I don't know that Lews Therin will ever completely have peace over Ilyena however.  While Rand may not be completely mad, Lews Therin is.  In fact, I think that Lews Therins psycosis is the base for any mental health issues that Rand has.  The Lews Therin factor will be much harder to resolve I think.

[Lord of the Morning]

I think Moiraine's purpose is to return to Rand. When he sees her he gets all emotional because he thought her death was his fault. He runs off. Cadsuane comes and finds him moping in his rooms with a few Asha'man and proceeds to yell/slap/mock him basically telling him that Moiraine and all the other Aes Sedai and Maidens made their own choices, and he has to let them take responsibility etc etc.

 

 

In summary, when Moiraine returns, Rand will finally realize that he can't take responsibility for everyone. He'll cry like a baby in front of Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine and everyone, finally let that list go,

 

and I'll say tentatively that Lews Therin will get over Ilyena to some degree. At the very least he'll stop throwing emo fits in Rand's head going "Oh Light! Ilyena!" and crap like that.

 

I don't know that I agree with this completely, as there are many other factors that weight in on this; such as Mats role and whatever reasons that Moiraine had to go back to Finnland to begin with.  I do like the prospect of some emotional healing at the hands of Moiraine, Min and Cadsuane however.  I don't know that Lews Therin will ever completely have peace over Ilyena however.  While Rand may not be completely mad, Lews Therin is.  In fact, I think that Lews Therins psycosis is the base for any mental health issues that Rand has.  The Lews Therin factor will be much harder to resolve I think.

 

It was stated in KoD that Lews Therin is a symptom of rand's madness, not the cause.

[Kelitor]

I think Moiraine's purpose is to return to Rand. When he sees her he gets all emotional because he thought her death was his fault. He runs off. Cadsuane comes and finds him moping in his rooms with a few Asha'man and proceeds to yell/slap/mock him basically telling him that Moiraine and all the other Aes Sedai and Maidens made their own choices, and he has to let them take responsibility etc etc.

 

 

In summary, when Moiraine returns, Rand will finally realize that he can't take responsibility for everyone. He'll cry like a baby in front of Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine and everyone, finally let that list go,

 

and I'll say tentatively that Lews Therin will get over Ilyena to some degree. At the very least he'll stop throwing emo fits in Rand's head going "Oh Light! Ilyena!" and crap like that.

 

I don't know that I agree with this completely, as there are many other factors that weight in on this; such as Mats role and whatever reasons that Moiraine had to go back to Finnland to begin with.  I do like the prospect of some emotional healing at the hands of Moiraine, Min and Cadsuane however.  I don't know that Lews Therin will ever completely have peace over Ilyena however.  While Rand may not be completely mad, Lews Therin is.  In fact, I think that Lews Therins psycosis is the base for any mental health issues that Rand has.  The Lews Therin factor will be much harder to resolve I think.

 

It was stated in KoD that Lews Therin is a symptom of rand's madness, not the cause.

 

By one of the Forsaken. Not exactly a reliable source.

 

How can the voice in Rand's head be pure madness when he's gotten information from it that has been confirmed to be true?

[Kryshah]

It was stated in KoD that Lews Therin is a symptom of rand's madness, not the cause.

 

Yep.  I know that, I just finished a re-read of KoD a week or so ago.  I think that it's universally understood that there is indeed a connection between the incarnation that was Lews Therin and the present incarnation of Rand.  Lews Therin is not some odd figment of Rand's imagination, nor is the voice a symptom of MPD.  It's more along the lines of two very different people occupying the same space and time (i.e. the same body) though Rand is far more dominant most of the time than Lews.  Take this into consideration and subtract Lews Therin from the equation and Rand would still be hard, but he wouldn't be a loon.  Thus, Lews Therin is the cause of Rands mental issues it should even be called that.  I won't call into question Mr. Rigneys knowledge of human psychology, as he is more than well informed on topics that he covers in his books.  I will however agree with Lord of the Morning concerning the source.  I think that even in Randland his issues with Lews aren't considered psychosis (I know, my own wording), but rather that Semi. is trying to breed some sort of dissention among Rands followers.  It's well known that the male half of the source was tainted and causes madness; inversely, it is not well known that it has been cleansed.  It wouldn't be a huge leap for his followers to be convinced that he is indeed crazy after a comment like that.  It was a bold, but expert attempt at manipulating his closes allies and advisors.

 

Lews however, is indeed nuts and that affects Rand.  So my point still stands.  I don't think that Lews Therin will be able to deal with his murders unless something huge happens.  The only other option that I can see would be Rand learning to finally shut him out for good.  I can still agree with Kelitor on this point.  It's entirely possible that Moiraine may hold the necessary information for  Rand to snap out of his funk, with Cadsuanes help of course.  As much as the Emonds fielders generally dislike Moiraine, some part of me still believes that she may be the only Aes Sedai that Rand still respects, and he will be more prone to listening to her.  Also, this knowledge that Mat's eye will gain may be influential also.  I could see him somehow teaching Rand to use Lews Therins memories as Mat does his old memories or something.

[Kelitor]

As to Lews Therin being nuts, he was healed with the True Power just before he killed himself. Probably not a really stable healing, but I think he does the potential to become more stable. And while I don't think he'll really ever get over Ilyena, eventually he'll have to come to terms with her death. Just my opinion.  ;)

[Mr Ares]

Because they play to rules.

Rules just went out the window. The rules were for the doorways, one of which they just destroyed.

 

For the record however, popularity has never been a keen indicator of pleasant disposition.

Never said it was. But, if people like me the way I am, and I like me the way I am, why should I change?

 

By one of the Forsaken. Not exactly a reliable source.

We have no reason t disbelieve her.

 

Take this into consideration and subtract Lews Therin from the equation and Rand would still be hard, but he wouldn't be a loon. Thus, Lews Therin is the cause of Rands mental issues it should even be called that.

Rand has problems enough, even without LTT, and it is the taint that is the cause, LTT is a symptom of the taint.

Semi is trying to breed some sort of dissention among Rands followers.

Almost certainly, but that could be done with the truth as well as with a lie, so it says nothing about how accurate the information is. Much of what she said is verifiable.

It's well known that the male half of the source was tainted and causes madness; inversely, it is not well known that it has been cleansed.

That it has been Cleansed is of no matter - it just means people won't get worse, not that they'll get better. And she was talking to Rand and the people who were with him at the Cleansing, which she also knows about, given she was there. Rand's mental issues began before the Cleansing.

[mb]

Lews Therin a symptom of the taint?  That seems doubtful.

The ability to draw (do artwork) seems not a product of the Taint.  Same with Lews Therin's memories.  Also Lews Therin gaining control at times.

Only the voice would be a product of the Taint; and that changed a little bit after the Cleansing.

 

[Auld Manriva]

Rand is LTT reincarnated, who was a reincarnation of others before him. That has not a thing to do with the taint. Thats The Pattern at work. Rand only thinks LTT is in his head because of the taint. I don't think Semi knows that either. Or maybe she does, that would support the "stirring the pot of doubt" among his people more.

 

Their limited ideas of what makes a person mad are a large part of Rand's issues with LTT occupying his mind. Rand has no precedent other than he's gone insane to explain or justify his dilemma. He can't grasp the concept that the Pattern has given him a gift/weapon to fight and win over the DO at TG. Even though he's begun to learn to use LTT in a small way so far it's all by accident.

 

I think... Moiraine will finally get Rand to open up to her. That has been one of the ongoing themes throughout the whole story (Facts being changed over distance and time is another). They ( any of the main or subordinate characters) don't talk to each other about things and it grates my teeth time and again. Witness the mind link between Rand, Mat and Perrin. They're going to have to learn to use it by discussing it so it becomes another arrow in their quiver. Moiraine I think will be a method to accomplish this opening up in Rand at least in some fashion and is the main reason or justification for her return. Whether she's still a Saidar slinger I don't think will matter much, though I'm sure they could use all the guns they can manage at TG.

 

But I don't think she's severed/stilled/dropped her .44 at all.... The TOG entry is different than either of the doors. There isn't anything that says its a one time entry. In fact ol' whatisname seems to be able to use it at will. The Rands Uncle/Lan's Cousin guy... The two doors opened onto entirely different worlds, not one as is suggested when "Finnland" is used. It's Aelfinnland and Eelfinnland, two different places, not the same one. So suggesting that one is linked to the other and the Bond could pass to Lan through either is specious at best. A poor assumption to justify a wrong headed argument.

 

I don't think she'll be made Queen of anything, though that is a good idea. She and Thom would be an incredible team together. Though them being known to be the players they are by everyone would diminish their effectiveness. I just think she'll be Queen of hers and Thom's Doublewide. Yeah.. I think they'll marry/team up whatever. I've thought for a long time she'd bond him and that would make him live longer. Her bond with Lan IS gone though and it won't come back just because she's still an AS if she is. At least that's how I see it.

 

Kryshah... I've been reading MA's proclamations for years now and you are entirely correct with your view. Rudeness and arrogance about HIS pov about everything is part and parcel of his persona here. Just a fact of life I reckon. One deals with it or ignores him, I tend towards the latter. And believe me, I know arrogance, I look at it every morning in the mirror, or so I'm told.

[Mr Ares]

Lews Therin a symptom of the taint?

Yes. Rand has the voice, the personality, the memories of a dead man in his head and they shouldn't be there. We have been told this is a rare form of madness, we have been told the taint causes madness.

 

It's Aelfinnland and Eelfinnland, two different places.

Lanfear was held by both.

[Titan Orion]

I think Moiraine's purpose is to return to Rand. When he sees her he gets all emotional because he thought her death was his fault. He runs off. Cadsuane comes and finds him moping in his rooms with a few Asha'man and proceeds to yell/slap/mock him basically telling him that Moiraine and all the other Aes Sedai and Maidens made their own choices, and he has to let them take responsibility etc etc.

 

 

In summary, when Moiraine returns, Rand will finally realize that he can't take responsibility for everyone. He'll cry like a baby in front of Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine and everyone, finally let that list go,

 

and I'll say tentatively that Lews Therin will get over Ilyena to some degree. At the very least he'll stop throwing emo fits in Rand's head going "Oh Light! Ilyena!" and crap like that.

 

I don't know that I agree with this completely, as there are many other factors that weight in on this; such as Mats role and whatever reasons that Moiraine had to go back to Finnland to begin with.  I do like the prospect of some emotional healing at the hands of Moiraine, Min and Cadsuane however.  I don't know that Lews Therin will ever completely have peace over Ilyena however.  While Rand may not be completely mad, Lews Therin is.  In fact, I think that Lews Therins psycosis is the base for any mental health issues that Rand has.  The Lews Therin factor will be much harder to resolve I think.

 

It was stated in KoD that Lews Therin is a symptom of rand's madness, not the cause.

 

By one of the Forsaken. Not exactly a reliable source.

 

How can the voice in Rand's head be pure madness when he's gotten information from it that has been confirmed to be true?

 

Semirhage explained it well enough. Rands connection to Lews Therin is a real connection, one that lets memories drift across, one that causes Lews Therin to feel as if he controls Rand and thinks Rand is the voice in his head. If Lews Therin isnt real then it is an incredible coincedence that Lews Therin first shows up not long after Rand shows signs of mental instability, and there is no better explanation for Lews Therin being real than a type of madness that connects him to his past life. Why else would Rand hear the voice? Because he is the saviour of mankind? No, because his type of madness creates a connection to Lews Therin as Semirhage said. She isnt lying, or if she is it was one hell of a lucky guess, because as I said everything she said has happened. The fact that Rand has learnt things about the Power from Lews Therin that work, the voice is definitely real, despite the fact that a Forsdaken said so. Believe her, theres no better explanation

[a pale tanned lover]

Semirhage explained it well enough. Rands connection to Lews Therin is a real connection, one that lets memories drift across, one that causes Lews Therin to feel as if he controls Rand and thinks Rand is the voice in his head. If Lews Therin isnt real then it is an incredible coincedence that Lews Therin first shows up not long after Rand shows signs of mental instability, and there is no better explanation for Lews Therin being real than a type of madness that connects him to his past life. Why else would Rand hear the voice? Because he is the saviour of mankind? No, because his type of madness creates a connection to Lews Therin as Semirhage said. She isnt lying, or if she is it was one hell of a lucky guess, because as I said everything she said has happened. The fact that Rand has learnt things about the Power from Lews Therin that work, the voice is definitely real, despite the fact that a Forsdaken said so. Believe her, theres no better explanation/quote]

 

Apart from the fact that at least some of the forsaken know he has access to information that only someone from the AOL could have, so its really not a big surprise that she could put 2+2 together and sound like she knows what shes talking about, Aes Sedai have been doing it for years.

 

The other argument as well is when the horn was blown there was no seperate soul of LTT because that is Rand now, LTT soul has been reborn into him, so unlikely that this is just a form of madness from the taint.

 

I'd be surprised to see Moirainne and Rand re-united until the final book and would hope we could at least have him learn laughter and tears before this.

[Mr Ares]

Semirhage explained it well enough. Rands connection to Lews Therin is a real connection, one that lets memories drift across, one that causes Lews Therin to feel as if he controls Rand and thinks Rand is the voice in his head. If Lews Therin isnt real then it is an incredible coincedence that Lews Therin first shows up not long after Rand shows signs of mental instability, and there is no better explanation for Lews Therin being real than a type of madness that connects him to his past life. Why else would Rand hear the voice? Because he is the saviour of mankind? No, because his type of madness creates a connection to Lews Therin as Semirhage said. She isnt lying, or if she is it was one hell of a lucky guess, because as I said everything she said has happened. The fact that Rand has learnt things about the Power from Lews Therin that work, the voice is definitely real, despite the fact that a Forsdaken said so. Believe her, theres no better explanation

 

Apart from the fact that at least some of the forsaken know he has access to information that only someone from the AOL could have, so it's really not a big surprise that she could put 2+2 together and sound like she knows what shes talking about, Aes Sedai have been doing it for years.

Doesn't mean she is lying - she could put two and two together and tell the truth. And her lying makes the issue of why Rand is hearing LTT no clearer. It raises no questions, provides no answers.

 

The other argument as well is when the horn was blown there was no seperate soul of LTT because that is Rand now, LTT soul has been reborn into him, so unlikely that this is just a form of madness from the taint.

That argument makes no sense. We know Rand is LTT reborn, but that is no reason why he should hear the other man's voice. After all, everyone is someone reborn, but most people don't hear the voices of their past incarnations. Even the other Hero in the series, Birgitte, doesn't fit what we see in Rand - she has memories of her other lives, and they fade as time goes by, they don't manifest as the voices and personalities of Birgitte's past.

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: a pale tanned lover on Today at 03:09:38 AM

Quote

Semirhage explained it well enough. Rands connection to Lews Therin is a real connection, one that lets memories drift across, one that causes Lews Therin to feel as if he controls Rand and thinks Rand is the voice in his head. If Lews Therin isnt real then it is an incredible coincedence that Lews Therin first shows up not long after Rand shows signs of mental instability, and there is no better explanation for Lews Therin being real than a type of madness that connects him to his past life. Why else would Rand hear the voice? Because he is the saviour of mankind? No, because his type of madness creates a connection to Lews Therin as Semirhage said. She isnt lying, or if she is it was one hell of a lucky guess, because as I said everything she said has happened. The fact that Rand has learnt things about the Power from Lews Therin that work, the voice is definitely real, despite the fact that a Forsdaken said so. Believe her, theres no better explanation

 

Apart from the fact that at least some of the forsaken know he has access to information that only someone from the AOL could have, so it's really not a big surprise that she could put 2+2 together and sound like she knows what shes talking about, Aes Sedai have been doing it for years.

Doesn't mean she is lying - she could put two and two together and tell the truth. And her lying makes the issue of why Rand is hearing LTT no clearer. It raises no questions, provides no answers./quote]

She may be telling the truth, although didn't the madness caused by the taint happen after she was sealed up?? I would think the reaction of the people around rand when she said it gave the best answer as too the question as why say it, her whole persona radiates this type of action.

 

The other argument as well is when the horn was blown there was no seperate soul of LTT because that is Rand now, LTT soul has been reborn into him, so unlikely that this is just a form of madness from the taint.

That argument makes no sense. We know Rand is LTT reborn, but that is no reason why he should hear the other man's voice. After all, everyone is someone reborn, but most people don't hear the voices of their past incarnations. Even the other Hero in the series, Birgitte, doesn't fit what we see in Rand - she has memories of her other lives, and they fade as time goes by, they don't manifest as the voices and personalities of Birgitte's past./quote]

 

We have no evidence of what can happen to say any different,maybe the manner of LTT death could be some aspect of why he manifested within Rand? your argument about Birgitte is flawed since she wasn't reborn, so has no basis for comparison. The Dragon Reborn isn't just anyone, so can't be compared with everyone.