Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Mr Ares]

Being in a place like Finnland might sever the Warder bond.

Didn't the first time she went in there.

[Terror405]

Yes but when she fell in the ter'angreal closed behind her. If she is severed, I wonder if Nynaeve can heal her or is it only being stilled by a person that is healable.

[Shard]

Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed. We know of two things that will sever a warder bond - death (and we know she isn't dead), and being severed from the TS. So that leaves one explanation.

 

That could be so but then again, how many Aes Sedai have fallen into completely new dimesions like Moiraine did? Being in a place like Finnland might sever the Warder bond. 

 

Then the bond would have been severed in tSR when she visited the Tear Doorway.

[Cherise]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

 

Perhaps because all the seals must be broken before The Dragon can defeat the Dark One, and it would be best to break the seals sooner rather than later, when the Dark One is more prepared. The best defense is a good offense. Surprise is often the strongest weapon at one's disposal.

[OptimusPrime]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

 

Perhaps because all the seals must be broken before The Dragon can defeat the Dark One, and it would be best to break the seals sooner rather than later, when the Dark One is more prepared. The best defense is a good offense. Surprise is often the strongest weapon at one's disposal.

 

Read the scene that introduces Taim again and tell you me really believe what you just said applies.

[mb]

Merging with someone of the same soul has not yet been disproven in the books.

Nor does it have any examples in the book, making it completely unsupported.

Not completely; there are merging examples which I count as not too different.

 

Again, things that have the same cause have some kind of similarity in their effects.

Also; what happens once, the same cause would generally produce again.  And things the cause produces now, there is a chance that the cause might have produced the things in the past.

 

So far, there have not been similar cases where madness was the cause.

 

[Cherise]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

 

Perhaps because all the seals must be broken before The Dragon can defeat the Dark One, and it would be best to break the seals sooner rather than later, when the Dark One is more prepared. The best defense is a good offense. Surprise is often the strongest weapon at one's disposal.

 

Read the scene that introduces Taim again and tell you me really believe what you just said applies.

 

Will I get extra credit?

 

=P

[OptimusPrime]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

 

Perhaps because all the seals must be broken before The Dragon can defeat the Dark One, and it would be best to break the seals sooner rather than later, when the Dark One is more prepared. The best defense is a good offense. Surprise is often the strongest weapon at one's disposal.

 

Read the scene that introduces Taim again and tell you me really believe what you just said applies.

 

Will I get extra credit?

 

=P

 

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

[Hybrid]

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

 

The next day Herid writes a note to Rand saying, "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." Then he leaves to go fishing. (LoC,Ch50)

 

Herid Fel's note may be an indication that Rand does in fact have to smash the seals before resealing the Bore. 

[EramofAmandous]

That's what I've always assumed.

[fikkie77]

I'm doing a reread and am reading PoD now. There's a scene in there where Cadsuane is embroiding something. It's a scene of a male hand hoiding the ancient Aes Sedai sign, but it's unclear whether the hand keeps the sign together or is crushing it. Cadsuane tells she has her intentions with it

 

It never said anything to me before today, but could this be a foretelling? Rand has been trying to protect the seals until now, but that Cadsuane will make clear to him that he will have to destroy them?

[OptimusPrime]

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

 

The next day Herid writes a note to Rand saying, "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." Then he leaves to go fishing. (LoC,Ch50)

 

Herid Fel's note may be an indication that Rand does in fact have to smash the seals before resealing the Bore. 

 

How far can people take a misinterpretation of my post?

 

I said Rand didnt mean to break the Seal IN THE SCENE WHERE TAIM WAS INTRODUCED. Did you see it that time? I never said Rand doesnt want to break them ever, just that he didnt want to IN THAT SCENE. I dont care what Herid Fel said because it doesnt apply to Rand acting like Lews Therin, which is what I was getting at. Lews Therin wanted to break the Seal, not Rand, yet Rand was about to break it, despite it being one of his main objectives at that time to gather the Seals and keep them from being carelessly or deliberately broken.

[Phariah]

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

 

The next day Herid writes a note to Rand saying, "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." Then he leaves to go fishing. (LoC,Ch50)

 

Herid Fel's note may be an indication that Rand does in fact have to smash the seals before resealing the Bore. 

 

How far can people take a misinterpretation of my post?

 

I said Rand didnt mean to break the Seal IN THE SCENE WHERE TAIM WAS INTRODUCED. Did you see it that time? I never said Rand doesnt want to break them ever, just that he didnt want to IN THAT SCENE. I dont care what Herid Fel said because it doesnt apply to Rand acting like Lews Therin, which is what I was getting at. Lews Therin wanted to break the Seal, not Rand, yet Rand was about to break it, despite it being one of his main objectives at that time to gather the Seals and keep them from being carelessly or deliberately broken.

so your saying that insane LTT (the other aspect of Rand's reincarnated soul) took partial possession of Rand and tryed to break the seal, but than sane Rand held him off and not break it

 

damn took you long enough to come around but glad to see you have joined the Rand isn't insane club

[Mr Ares]

Yes but when she fell in the ter'angreal closed behind her.

But the one in Tear didn't, nor did the ToG.

 

Not completely; there are merging examples which I count as not too different.

Yes, completely. There are no similar examples.

So far, there have not been similar cases

Corrected for you.

 

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

The next day Herid writes a note to Rand saying, "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." Then he leaves to go fishing. (LoC,Ch50)

 

Herid Fel's note may be an indication that Rand does in fact have to smash the seals before resealing the Bore. 

 

How far can people take a misinterpretation of my post?

 

I said Rand didnt mean to break the Seal IN THE SCENE WHERE TAIM WAS INTRODUCED. Did you see it that time? I never said Rand doesnt want to break them ever, just that he didnt want to IN THAT SCENE. I dont care what Herid Fel said because it doesnt apply to Rand acting like Lews Therin, which is what I was getting at. Lews Therin wanted to break the Seal, not Rand, yet Rand was about to break it, despite it being one of his main objectives at that time to gather the Seals and keep them from being carelessly or deliberately broken.

so your saying that insane LTT (the other aspect of Rand's reincarnated soul) took partial possession of Rand and tryed to break the seal, but than sane Rand held him off and not break it

 

damn took you long enough to come around but glad to see you have joined the Rand isn't insane club

A bit further, it seems.

[OptimusPrime]

You will realise that Rand didnt almost  deliberately smash the Seal at all in that scene. When he realizes he was about to, he stops. So, Rand wasnt about to smash the Seal because it was necessary in order to fight the Dark One at all. Rand didnt almost smash the Seal, Lews Therin did, then Rand gets a grip. The reason Rand didnt know what he was about to do is because Lews Therins mind did all the thinking for that while Rand puzzled over Taim.

 

The next day Herid writes a note to Rand saying, "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." Then he leaves to go fishing. (LoC,Ch50)

 

Herid Fel's note may be an indication that Rand does in fact have to smash the seals before resealing the Bore. 

 

How far can people take a misinterpretation of my post?

 

I said Rand didnt mean to break the Seal IN THE SCENE WHERE TAIM WAS INTRODUCED. Did you see it that time? I never said Rand doesnt want to break them ever, just that he didnt want to IN THAT SCENE. I dont care what Herid Fel said because it doesnt apply to Rand acting like Lews Therin, which is what I was getting at. Lews Therin wanted to break the Seal, not Rand, yet Rand was about to break it, despite it being one of his main objectives at that time to gather the Seals and keep them from being carelessly or deliberately broken.

so your saying that insane LTT (the other aspect of Rand's reincarnated soul) took partial possession of Rand and tryed to break the seal, but than sane Rand held him off and not break it

 

damn took you long enough to come around but glad to see you have joined the Rand isn't insane club

 

No. The fact that Rand is vulnerable to Lews Therin taking over is Rands main insanity. Look at Semirhages explanation for what I believe-what I believed before she confirmed it. Im not going over it again.

[a pale tanned lover]

No. The fact that Rand is vulnerable to Lews Therin taking over is Rands main instability. Look at Semirhages lack of explanation for what I believe-what I believed before she confirmed it. Im not going over it again.

Sorted, on this occasion i agree with you

[OptimusPrime]

No. The fact that Rand is vulnerable to Lews Therin taking over is Rands main instability. Look at Semirhages lack of explanation for what I believe-what I believed before she confirmed it. Im not going over it again.

Sorted, on this occasion i agree with you

 

You're using Mr Ares's style. Id cover your kneecaps if I were you  :D

 

No but seriously you didnt forward your point there at all

[a pale tanned lover]

Well i didn't say corrected for you ;D

 

Me? Never :D

[mb]

Regarding Lews Therin in Rand's head, neither theory can be proven or disproven with current evidence.

Since madness currently does not have any similar cases and merging 2 similar cases, I am counting merging as the more likely cause.  And the 2 examples I count as similar because the effects are similar.

 

Like I posted before, things that have same cause generally have some kind of similarity in their effects.

Also; a effect in one person by a cause, the cause generally repeats the effect in another person.

And effects a cause produces now, there is a chance that the cause produced the effects in the past.

 

Unless Robert Jordan commented about this situation in the past, those who have access to the notes would be the most likely ones who know the real cause.

Until they tell, I shall count merging as the more likely cause.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

What are your two similar cases for merging? Please, explain them to me because I can't remember them.

[Mr Ares]

Well i didn't say corrected for you ;D

 

Me? Never :D

So not only are you copying me, you're doing it badly.

 

Since madness currently does not have any similar cases and merging 2 similar cases,

No, it doesn't. There is no other case of two facet personalitites of the same soul manifesting at the same time. Therefore it is not supported by anything in the books. On the other hand madness is because, at the very least, we are told that that is what it is.

[mb]

What are your two similar cases for merging? Please, explain them to me because I can't remember them.

-Fain & Mordeth

-Isam & Luc

 

Since madness currently does not have any similar cases and merging 2 similar cases,

No, it doesn't. There is no other case of two facet personalitites of the same soul manifesting at the same time. Therefore it is not supported by anything in the books. On the other hand madness is because, at the very least, we are told that that is what it is.

Of Rand's current symptoms, only voice & memories have so far been attributed to madness.

Only merging so far has given new abilities.  And only in merging has there the other taken (or tried to take) control (Fain's case).

It being of same soul to me does not rule out the possibility of merging.  The only way I would rule it out is if every attempt at it fails.  If Rand's case fits, one attempt did not fail.

 

Being told that the case is madness to me is not enough.  Each effect repeated more times with madness would be the only thing that would make me consider madness as the more likely cause.

 

[OptimusPrime]

What are your two similar cases for merging? Please, explain them to me because I can't remember them.

-Fain & Mordeth

-Isam & Luc

 

Since madness currently does not have any similar cases and merging 2 similar cases,

No, it doesn't. There is no other case of two facet personalitites of the same soul manifesting at the same time. Therefore it is not supported by anything in the books. On the other hand madness is because, at the very least, we are told that that is what it is.

Of Rand's current symptoms, only voice & memories have so far been attributed to madness.

Only merging so far has given new abilities.  And only in merging has there the other taken (or tried to take) control (Fain's case).

It being of same soul to me does not rule out the possibility of merging.  The only way I would rule it out is if every attempt at it fails.  If Rand's case fits, one attempt did not fail.

 

Being told that the case is madness to me is not enough.  Each effect repeated more times with madness would be the only thing that would make me consider madness as the more likely cause.

 

 

So we can say that Lews Therin and Rand are merging, but the negative effects that has on Rands mind isnt madness? Thats what you're saying? If I couldnt tell betwen my own memories and someone elses surely I would be diagnosed as mad.

 

Its like you're reviewing a boxing match and you're saying the blood gushing down the boxers face isnt due to being punched, its due to getting in the ring in the first place. Rands head is the ring, the two boxers are Lews Therin and Rand. As the fight goes on, each boxer takes blows to the face. For a metaphoric translation, each damage delivered by a punch is a trait of Lews Therin seeping into Rand. Eventually, when the "knockout" comes, Rand will think he is Lews Therin through and through.

[Mr Ares]

What are your two similar cases for merging? Please, explain them to me because I can't remember them.

-Fain & Mordeth

-Isam & Luc

Two cases which are not similar. Which are, in fact, very different.

 

Of Rand's current symptoms, only voice & memories have so far been attributed to madness.

Which symptoms have been attributed to merging?

Only merging so far has given new abilities.

No new abilities in this case - only the abilities and memories of Rand and LTT. Nothing thaat wasn't present in either beforehand.

It being of same soul to me does not rule out the possibility of merging.

It just means we have no examples of a similar case to Rand's.

[OptimusPrime]

What are your two similar cases for merging? Please, explain them to me because I can't remember them.

-Fain & Mordeth

-Isam & Luc

Two cases which are not similar. Which are, in fact, very different.

 

Of Rand's current symptoms, only voice & memories have so far been attributed to madness.

Which symptoms have been attributed to merging?

Only merging so far has given new abilities.

No new abilities in this case - only the abilities and memories of Rand and LTT. Nothing thaat wasn't present in either beforehand.

It being of same soul to me does not rule out the possibility of merging.

It just means we have no examples of a similar case to Rand's.

 

Exactly, and Semirhages speech in KoD mentions that Rands condition is very, very rare, which explains why we havent seen a similar case.

 

Why do people assume there has to be more than one of everything in the books?