Moriane's Role in the New Books

[bugsyhawk]

I apologize if this has been a subject that has been talked about a lot, but I am new to the forums.

 

I was wondering what you thought Moraine would be like when she is rescued. 

 

Will she have the same desire to make sure Rand succeeds?  Enougth to seek him out over becoming part o the siege?  If so, what will she think of Cadsuane filling the vacant spot that she left?

 

Will she be the same strenght as before or not?

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine, when she returns, will almost certainly be severed. And it's doubtful she has enjoyed her holiday in Finnland (quite right too, Finland is a ghastly country, not nearly as lovely as Sweden. Visit Sweden!). So we can expect some changes based on that.

 

« Last Edit: Just now by Majsju, on the instructions of the Swedish Board of Tourism »

[Kivam]

Moiraine, when she returns, will almost certainly be severed. And it's doubtful she has enjoyed her holiday in Finnland (quite right too, Finland is a ghastly country, not nearly as lovely as Sweden. Visit Sweden!). So we can expect some changes based on that.

 

« Last Edit: Just now by Majsju, on the instructions of the Swedish Board of Tourism »

 

That comma splice at the front is dreadful - you should have led with "when she returns"

[Mr Ares]

you should have led with "when she returns"

I need to give you something to do. You'd be bored if I didn't.

[fikkie77]

Moiraine, when she returns, will almost certainly be severed. And it's doubtful she has enjoyed her holiday in Finnland (quite right too, Finland is a ghastly country, not nearly as lovely as Sweden. Visit Sweden!). So we can expect some changes based on that.

 

« Last Edit: Just now by Majsju, on the instructions of the Swedish Board of Tourism »

Why would she be severed? Because Lanfear probably was? That really doesn't say a thing about Moiraine. Lanfear got killed in Finnland (probably stepped into some lake), Moiraine certainly didn't. We don't know how Lanfear got severed, so we don't know whether it's even likely that Moiraine is as well.

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed. We know of two things that will sever a warder bond - death (and we know she isn't dead), and being severed from the TS. So that leaves one explanation. Furthermore, we know ter'angreal are dangerous things when used incorrecly, and the fact that the one she fell into was in the process of destroying itself implies it was misused ever so slightly.

[bunnyfroufrou]

stilled.  she was totally stilled.  i think moi will be eating a little humble pie upon her return, but i do not think she'll lose her convictions of seeing rand defeat the great lord.  so, she'll prolly defer to women who can channel because that's what stilled women do.  and she'll no doubt have both pride and humility when she sees the super girls.  and i don't think she'll care much about lan, as she knows that's now ny's concern.

 

but when it comes to rand, she will be the same steel cloaked in velvet gal she always was.  (she's like his aunt or something, right?)  and of course, she'll be all sorts of touched at how much she was missed.  golly, it's going to be a weeper.

[mb]

Until we have an account of what happened on the other side of the door, we cannot conclude whether either of them were severed/burned-out or not.

Severed then being Healed might have happened to Lanfear/Cyndane; yet other possibilities have not been ruled out.

 

A marriage with Thom seems likely because of these scenes:

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when going through the Ways & her reference to Min's Viewings during same conversation.

-Moiraine knowing the face of the man she will marry when speaking with Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve in Tear.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico when speaking with him just before they leave Tear.

 

[Juggler]

you can couple that with Thom's hints regarding moiraine as being "a handsome woman" what are the chances she'll be set up as Queen of cairhien instead of elayne? with Thom as King / prince (however they do it there) I wouldn't be surprised if elayne was happy for her to do it, she'd be happy with just Andor and she did say she would see about cairhien. Even if stilled Damer could heal moiraine.to full strength. Then there would be 2 aes sedai queens. now that would be interesting  ;)

[Mr Ares]

Severed then being Healed might have happened to Lanfear/Cyndane; yet other possibilities have not been ruled out.

Other possibilities have no evidence to support them.

[Chance]

I see her role in the new books as knowledge for Rand. She's been through the twisted doorway, been to see the green man twice, been through Ruidean, and now has lived with the finns for a lot of books. While being queen of Carhien is interesting, I don't see that happening. Likewise, I don't see marrying Thom that important to the last battle. Why would Rand fail without a woman dead and gone? If Moiranne is a key to something, it's knowledge that Rand needs to defeat the DO.

[Titan Orion]

I reckon when Cadsuane teaches Rand to laugh and cry, Moiraines return will-or damn wel should-be the first time we see him cry. And her return should shatter the list.

[bugsyhawk]

Here as queen in Cairhein is an interesting idea.  Of course, Thom would be the perfect compliment to keep her safe. 

[Thorum]

- It doesn't really matter if she is severed or not. That can be Healed now, remember?

 

- Queen in Cairhien? I don't buy it. She is WAY too far down the line, and Elayne will require a prize for her to relinquish the mines etc. which have to go to Perrin.

[fikkie77]

She's not way too far down the line, the problem would be that she's of an impopular house. If she was too far down the line, the Aes Sedai wouldn't have wanted to get her on the Sunthrone in NS.

[Thorum]

AS are AS.

 

And whether you're of an impopular house, or far down the line in a popular one, you won't get king. That was my point

[Kryshah]

Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed. We know of two things that will sever a warder bond - death (and we know she isn't dead), and being severed from the TS. So that leaves one explanation. Furthermore, we know ter'angreal are dangerous things when used incorrecly, and the fact that the one she fell into was in the process of destroying itself implies it was misused ever so slightly.

 

We also knew that being stilled was permanent.  I don't think there is a precident in place in Randland concerning the effects of disappearing into another dimension... though then I would have to ask why there wasn't a cutoff when she went through the ter'angreal to speak with the Finn in the first place.  I don't seek to make an absolute statement about anything dealing with Moirane at this point.  There simply isn't enough information given to be able to address it in my opinion.

[mb]

Severed then being Healed might have happened to Lanfear/Cyndane; yet other possibilities have not been ruled out.

Other possibilities have no evidence to support them.

All evidence is not told, so we cannot say that there is no evidence to support other possibilities.

An account of what happened on the other side of the door I think should be the only concluding factor.

 

[Mardragon]

I don't think there is a precident in place in Randland concerning the effects of disappearing into another dimension...

 

That's what I have been thinking too.

 

though then I would have to ask why there wasn't a cutoff when she went through the ter'angreal to speak with the Finn in the first place.

 

The doorway was still functioning then though, so the connection could go through that. (That's if the link works like a kind of cord between the two individuals of course, it might not.) When the doorway melted, the link could have been broken. I'm thinking purely of the link between Moiraine and Lan here, not her link to the source. I.e. she might not have been stilled. Considering the Finn's fear of the One power though I have my doubts about that too.

 

  I don't seek to make an absolute statement about anything dealing with Moirane at this point.  There simply isn't enough information given to be able to address it in my opinion.

 

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if Moiraine was stilled but it could go either way.

 

I'm very much looking forward to the rescue story anyway! I wonder if it will happen this book or if we have more to go?

[Mr Ares]

I don't think there is a precident in place in Randland concerning the effects of disappearing into another dimension

Except all those times someone disappeared into another dimension. Like Moiraine, as you noted. So it is a bit ridiculous to suggest that something that had no effect on the warder bond snapped it, with no evidence to suggest that this is so. We only have evidence to support two things causing that, and we know she isn't dead. Severing would also fit with Lanfear's loss of strength as Cyndane, another thing we only have evidence to support one way, we have an event that would reasonably be expected to cause severing, and it would explain why she has been unable to escape the Finns. When all the evidence points towards one conclusion, and nothing contradicts that, I think that conclusion is thus a very reasonable theory. It might be we have to revise that opinion later in the face of new facts, but until then we can say with reasonable certainty that she was severed. You might also want to bear in mind that in TGH, Verin's warder bond was not severed when they lost months travelling by Portal Stone. Tomas didn't know where she was, but they were still bonded.

 

All evidence is not told, so we cannot say that there is no evidence to support other possibilities.

If you have evidence to support another possibility, share it. If not, if no-one has anything, then there is no evidence to support other possibilities. And being told what happened would negate the need for a theory, as we would have facts. Unless you are opposed to theories, then there is absolutely no reason not to hold this up as by far the most likely.

[Kryshah]

Except all those times someone disappeared into another dimension. ... You might also want to bear in mind that in TGH, Verin's warder bond was not severed when they lost months travelling by Portal Stone. Tomas didn't know where she was, but they were still bonded.

 

As Mardragon stated, the ter'angreal was fully functional when Moiraine went through the first time.  And not all dimensions share the same sort of link with Randland.  We also know that bonds fade with distance, who is to say that Finn-land isn't so far distant from Randland that it would seem as though the bond was cut when the door was destroyed?  Verin traveling by portal stone isn't quite the same, as the portal stones connect to worlds that are mirrors of Randland.  I don't know that Mr. Jordan ever actually addressed the matter, but other theories concerning parallel dimensions place those parallel dimensions within the same time and space as the original dimension.  Again, we don't have enough information to make even the partial conclusions that you wish to treat as concrete.

 

Like Moiraine, as you noted.

  Again, the door was fully functional when Moiraine stepped through it.  So, once again - No precident

 

So it is a bit ridiculous to suggest that something that had no effect on the warder bond snapped it, with no evidence to suggest that this is so. We only have evidence to support two things causing that, and we know she isn't dead.

You're right, we have no evidence.  Period.  You're conclusion implies that we have enough information to conclude that she was stilled, but unless you somehow know all laws of physics in Randland I suggest you stop assuming that you know all possible outcomes.

 

Severing would also fit with Lanfear's loss of strength as Cyndane, another thing we only have evidence to support one way, we have an event that would reasonably be expected to cause severing, and it would explain why she has been unable to escape the Finns.

Stilling doesn't always cause a loss of strength.  If it's healed by a channeler of the opposite gender, you are healed to full capacity.  I assume that if the Dark One healed her, he would know this.  But she wasn't healed, her soul was transfered to a different body.  I know that it's printed somewhere that channeling works similarly to physical abilities.  Different bodies are capable of different feats.  Lanfear is in a different body, thus her ability to channel has been diminished.

 

When all the evidence points towards one conclusion, and nothing contradicts that, I think that conclusion is thus a very reasonable theory.

 

You speak as a trained scientist.  So it would only be relevant to tell you that I am indeed a biologist.  I fully understand how evidence may lead to conclusions.  The problem here is that you are misreading some evidence, and filling in blanks that have yet to be filled in by the author.  When I said that there is no precident that applies to what you may think you know about the physics and biology of Randland.  Unfortunately you aren't the creator, nor are you Robert Jordan... and by your routinely unkind words I seriously doubt that you are Brandon Sanderson.  So the conclusion that I've come to that you don't know everything about Randland and have used your own assumptions to come to your half-baked conclusions.

 

It might be we have to revise that opinion later in the face of new facts, but until then we can say with reasonable certainty that she was severed.

 

We cannot say this with reasonable certainty.  All you can say with reasonable certainty is that she may have been severed.  There is also the possibility that she hasn't been severed.

 

Mr. Ares, I'm beginning to believe that you are no more than a troll.  I've followed your posts in several threads, and you seem to have a penchant for arrogance, and general rudeness.  I know that I'm fairly new here, but I believe that I can speak for others when I say that it's not appreciated.

 

[Kryshah]

The doorway was still functioning then though, so the connection could go through that. (That's if the link works like a kind of cord between the two individuals of course, it might not.) When the doorway melted, the link could have been broken. I'm thinking purely of the link between Moiraine and Lan here, not her link to the source. I.e. she might not have been stilled. Considering the Finn's fear of the One power though I have my doubts about that too.

 

 

I thought about this too, but I think that I've read that the both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn both live within the same realm. Also, the door in Rhuidian is still intact.  I'm not 100% though, I could be wrong on both points.  If I am, then I'm sure that Mr. Ares will rudely correct me.  So, if they live in the same realm, and if the other door is functional, then the bond should still carry through.  I think that this is another situation with too many unknown variables to make a reasonable conclusion.  I've also read that the Finn may be outside of the pattern, or in a particularly odd place in the pattern.  What is the possibility that Lanfear may have killed Moiraine and the Finn resurected her somehow?  Again... far too many unknowns.

 

Why in the world is this showing up as a quote?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat is supposed to be an Odin analog ( among other things ).

 

If we are to stay true to the legend of Odin, then Mat will ( at some point ) give up an eye for knowledge.

 

If the point at which he gives up that eye is as barter with the Finns for Moiraine, then Moiraine must possess some knowledge that Mat needs.

 

That's a lot of ifs, but at least they're reasonable ifs, based on what we know to this point.

 

So, Moiraine's role in the remaining books will probably be to supply knowledge about people and situations, and events that have thus far been unexplained.  Mat, and by extension if not directly, Rand will need that knowledge in order for the Light to triumph if Min's viewing is correct - and they always are.

 

So, it's Moiraine as Oracle for the wrap-up.

[del821]

As some one noted earlier with the rings, Aes Sedai ter angreal, Tear doorway, Rudhein and what not Moriane is/was the most forewarned person on Randland.

 

So? Well we know that she is alive and held by the finns. This bit is a leap of faith but i think it makes sense, this holding prisoner and rakeing through her memories is the payment part of her bargin with them. Not totaly beyond belief really. She would have known how to bargin with them and the experience of the Tear doorway would help in this respect as well.

 

So it appears you are allowed 3 demands/requests. Mat got 3, although his last was to be sent free so that might have cut it short, but 3 for Mat and 3 questions in the Tear one i think its a safe assumption.

 

Right, what can the finns actually grant. We only know of Mats 3 that i know of. His were

1. memories

2. item ( foxhead )

3. to get out.

The spear appears to be a receipt. Its possible these are all that can be granted but for all we know they could be able to give far more.

 

So what would moriane ask for? Going by what we know ( and i dont think we KNOW she is severed ) here is what i think.

 

1. Item. Strength in the power. A Sa'angreal ring/necklace/whatever.

2. Memories. ie give me all you have in the lost weaves drawer thank you.

3. Dont know what else they can give, please feel free to speculate.

 

OR

assuming she is severed and the finns can do other stuff

 

1. Power. Heal me stronger than before you severed me. Much stronger. Lanfears missing power?

2. Memories again. see above. It just makes sense.

3. Again i dont know, but now we are assuming they can do "stuff" so go wild.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mb]

If not, if no-one has anything, then there is no evidence to support other possibilities.

No evidence to support?  'no evidence at this moment to support' would be more accurate.  Other evidence might come up in the future.

Severed than being Healed does seem the most likely possibility, but it is not the only possibility.