Who is stronger?

[Mr Ares]

I've officially converted to the Higher Teachings of Planet Ares.

That's funny, i've converted to the Sacred Stupid Teachings of Planet Nightstrike. My mantra is now "I said it, so it's true". Moghedien is the strongest Chosen. I said it, so it's true. Demandred is a woman. I said it, so it's true. Nightstrike makes a good point.......Funny, I said it but it's still not true. I don't think that will come true no matter how many times I say it.

 

If not then males would have to trust what they have been told so Rahvin could believe he was stronger than Lanfear even if he was not.

There would be other ways of finding out - if he ever linked with Lanfear, or if someone he knew the strength of did, or if he tried to infer it from what she can do. Not precise, but it would give him some idea. Coupled with their willingness to delude themselves about their standing compared to the others, it could lead him to the conclusion he is stronger.

[Nightstrike]

I've officially converted to the Higher Teachings of Planet Ares.

That's funny, i've converted to the Sacred Stupid Teachings of Planet Nightstrike. My mantra is now "I said it, so it's true". Moghedien is the strongest Chosen. I said it, so it's true. Demandred is a woman. I said it, so it's true. Nightstrike makes a good point.......Funny, I said it but it's still not true. I don't think that will come true no matter how many times I say it.

You're the one that rejects all evidence, except the dubious entries from the BWB. You're the one that claims "I said it, so it's true".

 

I'm simply demanding of you that you follow your own principles, and prove your claims "like it should be done". So, why don't you do it? Are you chicken?

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You're the one that rejects all evidence, except the dubious entries from the BWB.

No, I'm not. It's just that I'm aware of how little evidence we have, while you insist that everything is evidence even when it is unrelated to this. For example, we have nothing to place Graendal in relation to Moghedien. Both know the difference in strength between them, but neither has seen fit to share it with us. All we are told is that both are weaker than Lanfear and that both are weaker than Cyndane. Not which is the weaker of the two, nor which is the stronger. Yet you brazenly claim Graendal is the stronger, but cannot provide a single quote to support your point.

[Nightstrike]

It's just that I'm aware of how little evidence we have,

Are you really?

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Remains to be proven

 

Mr Ares, prove this with your own standards of how to prove things.

 

Mr Ares

Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters? Reply #84 on: April 17, 2009, 11:07:38 AM »

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

3. Aginor

4. Demandred (at best)

etc.

BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael". Planet Ares can't prove this list.

 

Mr Ares

Re: One Power strength

« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 04:19:49 AM »

She can't be stronger than Lanfear. That's the stongest it's possible for a woman to be. She can, at most, be equal.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 05:34:17 AM »

And even after Demandred joined. He was second strongest.

Speaking of Aginor. Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 04:21:14 AM »

The men should be: Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:43 AM »

Lanfear is second strongest Chosen.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:43 AM »

We place Lanfear in relation to the other women, Graendal in relation to Lanfear, Moghedien in relation to Graendal, but not Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Nicola and Alivia

« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 04:39:00 AM »

Actually, I'm not wrong about this. RJ claimed the Chosen lie to themselves about their own strengths - specifically, Rahvin was lying to himself, and he included Sammael because he knew Sammael's strength in rrelation to his own. Ishamael is the strongest Chosen. Lanfear is the next down, the Aginor (those two are very close - he may actually be the stronger of the two, but Lanfear is the one usually given the edge). The other Chosen follow behind. Demandred is definitely not stronger than Aginor. Only Ishamael, among the male Chosen, surpasses him for raw strength. This is given in the BWB, with Lanfear's status as number 2 behind Ishy also given in the books (TGH, IIRC).

So, Mr Ares claims Rahvin included Sammael (against Lanfear) because he knew Sammael's strength in relation to his own, but Graendal didn't do the same with Moghedien (against Cyndane)... "Demandred is definately not stronger than Aginor.", sounds like Mr Ares has been peaking into RJ's notes. I wonder how he did it.

 

 

Mr Ares, Re: One Power strength

« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 04:19:49 AM »

Be'lal didn't give much of a fight, but I guess he could he could have a higher rank as well.

Says nothing about his strength, everything about his willingness to talk rather than finish the job. Moiraine got the first shot, and it was all she needed.

So, maybe Be'lal is stronger than Aginor, then? The BWB, which you trust completely, says "the Forsaken of which the least is known". Seems like his strength wasn't known, either. Well done, Mr Ares.

 

Mr Ares Re: A Study of Relative Power Levels

« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 05:20:20 AM »

Looking back, I realize my post was insufficiently clear. After all, some people need to be told every last little thing. So I will try to be clearer: Maximum male strength is higher than maximum female. Average male sits slightly higher than average female. That is the limit of what Asmo has said. Nothing more. We can't use his comment on strength in arm as any sort of guide. The fact that maximum male upper body strength is 200% higher than maximum female is neither here nor there. You are just taking his comments to mean something that they don't, and building a house of cards and hoping that it won't be blown over. What is important is that RJ uses a 21 level list to work out female strength, with a level or two more for men. Unless we are to make ridiculous assumptions, such as the one or two extra male levels are both massive jumps from the maximum female (e.g. it is possible to be as strong as the strongest woman, or twice as strong, or three times as strong, but not to be one and a half times as strong). So if Lanfear is at 100% strength, Rand would be equivalent to 104-110% strength. Not a huge jump, and based off of the authors own measure of strength, rather than a half-baked theory based on a characters offhand analogy. Yay facts.

Yay facts, indeed. Seems like Mr Ares knows WoT facts better than RJ himself. RJ said:..."Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels." & "men can be much stronger than women". Yay RJ! By the way, we don't know if that 21 level list were for women alone. He said that he had fit "everybody" in on a 21 level list. That would likely include men, since men are among "everybody".

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It's just that I'm aware of how little evidence we have,

Are you really?

Yes. The rest of what you say is hot air and repetition.

[Nightstrike]

It's just that I'm aware of how little evidence we have,

Are you really?

Yes. The rest of what you say is hot air and repetition.

Repetition, and still you can't prove any of it. Seems like disciples of Ares are reduced to the One and Only Truth, namely that Rand might be the strongest.

[Mr Ares]

*Yawn* The evidence still supports me, Nightstrike, not you.

[Nightstrike]

*Yawn* The evidence still supports me, Nightstrike, not you.

You've got no evidence (at all) that follows your own principles. None What So Ever.

 

Edit: If you thought you had any, then why haven't you presented them?

[Nightstrike]

Remains to be proven

 

Mr Ares, prove this with your own standards of how to prove things.

 

Mr Ares

Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters? Reply #84 on: April 17, 2009, 11:07:38 AM »

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

3. Aginor

4. Demandred (at best)

etc.

BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael". Planet Ares can't prove this list.

 

Mr Ares

Re: One Power strength

« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 04:19:49 AM »

She can't be stronger than Lanfear. That's the stongest it's possible for a woman to be. She can, at most, be equal.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 05:34:17 AM »

And even after Demandred joined. He was second strongest.

Speaking of Aginor. Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 04:21:14 AM »

The men should be: Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:43 AM »

Lanfear is second strongest Chosen.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:43 AM »

We place Lanfear in relation to the other women, Graendal in relation to Lanfear, Moghedien in relation to Graendal, but not Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone.

Prove it.

 

Mr Ares

Re: Nicola and Alivia

« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 04:39:00 AM »

Actually, I'm not wrong about this. RJ claimed the Chosen lie to themselves about their own strengths - specifically, Rahvin was lying to himself, and he included Sammael because he knew Sammael's strength in rrelation to his own. Ishamael is the strongest Chosen. Lanfear is the next down, the Aginor (those two are very close - he may actually be the stronger of the two, but Lanfear is the one usually given the edge). The other Chosen follow behind. Demandred is definitely not stronger than Aginor. Only Ishamael, among the male Chosen, surpasses him for raw strength. This is given in the BWB, with Lanfear's status as number 2 behind Ishy also given in the books (TGH, IIRC).

So, Mr Ares claims Rahvin included Sammael (against Lanfear) because he knew Sammael's strength in relation to his own, but Graendal didn't do the same with Moghedien (against Cyndane)... "Demandred is definately not stronger than Aginor.", sounds like Mr Ares has been peaking into RJ's notes. I wonder how he did it.

 

 

Mr Ares, Re: One Power strength

« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 04:19:49 AM »

Be'lal didn't give much of a fight, but I guess he could he could have a higher rank as well.

Says nothing about his strength, everything about his willingness to talk rather than finish the job. Moiraine got the first shot, and it was all she needed.

So, maybe Be'lal is stronger than Aginor, then? The BWB, which you trust completely, says "the Forsaken of which the least is known". Seems like his strength wasn't known, either. Well done, Mr Ares.

 

Mr Ares Re: A Study of Relative Power Levels

« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 05:20:20 AM »

Looking back, I realize my post was insufficiently clear. After all, some people need to be told every last little thing. So I will try to be clearer: Maximum male strength is higher than maximum female. Average male sits slightly higher than average female. That is the limit of what Asmo has said. Nothing more. We can't use his comment on strength in arm as any sort of guide. The fact that maximum male upper body strength is 200% higher than maximum female is neither here nor there. You are just taking his comments to mean something that they don't, and building a house of cards and hoping that it won't be blown over. What is important is that RJ uses a 21 level list to work out female strength, with a level or two more for men. Unless we are to make ridiculous assumptions, such as the one or two extra male levels are both massive jumps from the maximum female (e.g. it is possible to be as strong as the strongest woman, or twice as strong, or three times as strong, but not to be one and a half times as strong). So if Lanfear is at 100% strength, Rand would be equivalent to 104-110% strength. Not a huge jump, and based off of the authors own measure of strength, rather than a half-baked theory based on a characters offhand analogy. Yay facts.

Yay facts, indeed. Seems like Mr Ares knows WoT facts better than RJ himself. RJ said:..."Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels." & "men can be much stronger than women". Yay RJ! By the way, we don't know if that 21 level list were for women alone. He said that he had fit "everybody" in on a 21 level list. That would likely include men, since men are among "everybody".

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I have the evidence stated in the books. That supports me. Nothing supports you. Nothing says Graendal is stronger than Moghedien, for instance. While it might be true, they might also be the same strength, or Moghedien the stronger, and you cannot find a quote to say they are, you just blindly assert it and hope other will agree. Find a quote or shut up you tedious little prick. Everything I have said in this thread I have backed up, those things I have said in other threads have no relevance to the point at hand. Simply reposting the same set of quotes does your point no favours. Is there any evidence to suggest Ishamael is not the strongest? No. That Aginor is not the next strongest man? No. That Lanfear is not strongest woman? No. That she is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with. That Demandred can, at best, be fourth? No. That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No. That Demandred surpasses Aginor? No. That we can place Semi or Mesaana in relation to anyone else, save Lanfear? No. That we can place Be'lal? No. There is nothing of substance - usually nothing at all - to contradict anything I have said in this thread. Despite your requests for me to "prove" things which can't be, all I have done is show that the balance of evidence favours my interpretation, and that yours is ludicrous and unsupported. You say nothing of substance, just talk crap constantly. Can you provide a quote to say Ishy isn't strongest? That Lanfear isn't next, followed by Aginor? Not vagueness, a perhaps here, a possibly there, an actual quote that says it is not so? Unless and until you can your argument is just blowing smoke, nothing of substance. Can you find anything that says that Graendal is stronger than Moghedien, or that Semi and Messana are equal? Because you made that claim but have so far manifestly failed to back it up with anything. The few quotes put forward have been shown to not support you at all, they do not say what you claim they do, nothing of the sort. S**t or get off the pot, boy.

[Nightstrike]

I have the evidence stated in the books. That supports me.

What books? Do you mean the ONE book, the BIG WHITE BOOK? What evidence? You haven't presented any evidence. Why haven't you answered my (repeated) posts? Are you chicken?

 

Nothing supports you.

I've converted, remember? Now I have but one claim, "Rand might be the strongest".

 

Nothing says Graendal is stronger than Moghedien, for instance.

Correct, Graendal could be much more skilled than Moggy. When she overpowered her in TPoD, while Moggy held the Power, would really say NOTHING at all. All according to the teachings of Ares. And I'm now a follower of Ares.

 

Find a quote or shut up you tedious little prick.

I'm sorry, but that's my line. Find yourself some evidence, Ares.

 

[Astus]

Nothing says Graendal is stronger than Moghedien, for instance.

Correct, Graendal could be much more skilled than Moggy. When she overpowered her in TPoD, while Moggy held the Power, would really say NOTHING at all. All according to the teachings of Ares. And I'm now a follower of Ares.

Graendal had an angreal and she chanelled using its full power. Granted she states that she did not need most of the power and that she just wanted to be safe but take it for what it's worth. She hit them with strong weaves of compulsion (again, drawing on the angreal) and being that she is the mistress of compulsion, I take it that it would have had a significant effect. Judging by her reaction it had a stronger effect than she had anticipated, with Moghedien letting go of the source.

 

My memory is a bit sketchy and I could be missing something but that's how I recall that particular scene.

[Nightstrike]

Graendal had an angreal and she chanelled using its full power.

Yeah, I'd forgot about that. So, it still says nothing. Alivia versus Cyndane says nothing, and this says nothing. Nothing says anything, one way or another. Nothing can be proven. We don't know anything. All evidence can, and should, be questioned.

 

I say "Rand might be the strongest". He just might.

[Nightstrike]

Is there any evidence to suggest Ishamael is not the strongest? No. That Aginor is not the next strongest man? No. That Lanfear is not strongest woman? No. That she is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with. That Demandred can, at best, be fourth? No. That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No. That Demandred surpasses Aginor? No. That we can place Semi or Mesaana in relation to anyone else, save Lanfear? No. That we can place Be'lal? No. There is nothing of substance - usually nothing at all - to contradict anything I have said in this thread.

...

S**t or get off the pot, boy.

Mr Ares, Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »

Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork.

…

Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Nightstrike]

That she [Lanfear] is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with.

Nothing has been "dealt with". BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael".

 

That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No.

Has RJ said so? I can't recall that. Please provide a quote, just not from "Thus Spake the Creator". We don't want "hearsay".

Edit: "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.". Cyndane could be lying to herself, or she could mean "no woman (in this age) could be stronger". So I'd say we don't have definitive evidence either way.

 

That we can place Be'lal? No.

Then he might be stronger than Aginor and Lanfear. As far as we can tell. "The Forsaken of which the least is known.", or something like that.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

One thing that has been established in the mainline books is that women can accurately assess their relative strength.

 

So, among the women Forsaken, Lanfear could justifiably claim to be the strongest.

 

However, men cannot so judge either women, or each other.  All any man can observe and assess about another man is whether that man is currently holding more Power than he, himself, could.  If he is, then ipso facto, the other guy is stronger.  BUT, no man can know whether the other guy is holding all that he can.  So, none of the men can accurately judge who among them is the strongest unless they actually face-off and go at it with everything they can command.

 

Presumably, each of the male Forsaken, at some point, battled LTT, but not each other.  He's he only common touchstone among them, and he supposedly defeated each at least once.

 

So, LTT, and possibly Rand as the Dragon reborn, would be strongest overall.  But, how the men breakdown among themselves is really unknown and unprovable.

 

When it comes to how the men stack up against the women, that too is unknown and unprovable.  All we have to go by is the statement that generally men are stronger than women.  Generally does not mean always.  Lanfear might have been strongest of all among the Forsaken.  Probably not, but we have no way to tell.

[Nightstrike]

One thing that has been established in the mainline books is that women can accurately assess their relative strength.

Assuming they've met them, or that a correct assessment has been reported to them. Another thing that has been established (in this thread, among other places) is that people frequently lie to themselves. Especially the Forsaken.

 

So, among the women Forsaken, Lanfear could justifiably claim to be the strongest.

Assuming she actually meant "the strongest woman EVER", wasn't misinformed, and wasn't lying to herself. Or, maybe she was the strongest woman during her lifetime, but another (somewhat stronger) female soul was born before and after her life. Or, they could have been contemporary, but the stronger of the souls was born in a non-channeling body.

 

However, men cannot so judge either women, or each other.  All any man can observe and assess about another man is whether that man is currently holding more Power than he, himself, could.  If he is, then ipso facto, the other guy is stronger.

If women wrote the info that was assembled into the text we got in the BWB, then I bet there COULD be LOADS of "mistakes" in there.

 

BUT, no man can know whether the other guy is holding all that he can.  So, none of the men can accurately judge who among them is the strongest unless they actually face-off and go at it with everything they can command.

MAYBE they could estimate something from "strain", UNLESS Ares theory is right and they can FAKE strain. So far, we haven't heard anything about it. Well, we have heard about the "strain", but we haven't heard of Ares' theory besides from him.

 

Presumably, each of the male Forsaken, at some point, battled LTT, but not each other.  He's he only common touchstone among them, and he supposedly defeated each at least once.

According to Luckers and Mr Ares (my Guiding Light), infighting was endemic among the Forsaken. Man versus woman Forsaken could (both) thus possibly be able to accurately assess each others strength, and live to tell about it. I wouldn't know anything about whether or not they've battled LTT eye to eye.

 

So, LTT, and possibly Rand as the Dragon reborn, would be strongest overall.  But, how the men breakdown among themselves is really unknown and unprovable.

According to Mr Ares, Rand and Moridin are the same strength. Remains to be proven.

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

I wonder if Graendal is as powerful as Willow was when she went crazy and tried to destroy the world in Season Six of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

 

oh wait, we're just comparing characters in the Wheel of Time right?

 

Well...I can safely say that Lanfear was definitely more powerful than Morgase Trakand.  So there!!!

[Nightstrike]

Well...I can safely say that Lanfear was definitely more powerful than Morgase Trakand.  So there!!!

:D Until we've actually seen them meet, I don't buy anything.  8)

[Mr Ares]

I have the evidence stated in the books. That supports me.

What books?

Well, there's this series of books called the Wheel of Time, about eleven books long, and a prequel, and a guide book called the World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time. They contain much useful infortaion when discussing the Wheel of Time, you should check them out sometime.

Why haven't you answered my (repeated) posts?

Because I have no reason to give any more answer to them than I have. Those discussed in this thread are answered in this thread, those not from this thread are not relevant. You have been told that, but it just hasn't sunk in. Repeating it doesn't mean you have a better point, it just makes you seem like an obnoxious, little twerp.

 

Nothing says Graendal is stronger than Moghedien, for instance.

Correct, Graendal could be much more skilled than Moggy. When she overpowered her in TPoD, while Moggy held the Power, would really say NOTHING at all.

Well, we must bear in mind that in the same encounter she faced both Moghedien and Cyndane, and admitted that Cyndane was stronger than her, and yet she still won. She defeated one person stronger than her, at least, so it says nothing of Moghedien's strength in relation to Graendal. The only thing that chapter tells us is that both are weaker than Cyndane.

 

Is there any evidence to suggest Ishamael is not the strongest? No. That Aginor is not the next strongest man? No. That Lanfear is not strongest woman? No. That she is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with. That Demandred can, at best, be fourth? No. That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No. That Demandred surpasses Aginor? No. That we can place Semi or Mesaana in relation to anyone else, save Lanfear? No. That we can place Be'lal? No. There is nothing of substance - usually nothing at all - to contradict anything I have said in this thread.

...

S**t or get off the pot, boy.

Mr Ares, Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »

Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork.

…

Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

So when I say what little evidence we have supports certain placements, and we have no evidence to contradict them or to place any other Chosen, your response is to idiotically repost what I said. As usual, reposting my words does your point no favours. Quite the reverse.

 

That she [Lanfear] is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with.

Nothing has been "dealt with". BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael".

And there is nothing to say that possibility is not the correct one, is there? Therefore, we accept that she is until new evidence comes along. Because the evidence we are given indicates she is. Evidence still supports my placement, and not your wishful thinking.

 

That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No.

Has RJ said so?

Is that relevant? No. We have no reason to believe she isn't. As there is a limit to strength, and someone must be at it, and we know of no-one stronger than Lanfear, it is entirely possible, probable even, that she is at the femal maximum, especially given this comment:

"She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.". She believes herself strongest, and as we are presented with no reason not to accept it we do so, provisionally. The evidence we currently have suggests that she is as strong as a woman can be. We are always prepared to revise our opinions in the face of new data.

 

That we can place Be'lal? No.

Then he might be stronger than Aginor and Lanfear. As far as we can tell. "The Forsaken of which the least is known.", or something like that.

Appeal to ignorance. We don't know, therefore he must be. No. He might be at any strength, but unless and until we have the evidence to place him somewhere, we cannot place him anywhere. If what little evidence we have says Ishy is strongest, etc., then, no matter the caveats, we should be prepared to accept this evidence for the time being, while awaiting further information.

 

You are a long way short of my methods, boy.

 

I wonder if Graendal is as powerful as Willow was when she went crazy and tried to destroy the world in Season Six of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

How dare you? If you're going to reference Buffy, reference one of the good seasons.

[Nightstrike]

I have the evidence stated in the books. That supports me.

What books?

Well, there's this series of books called the Wheel of Time, about eleven books long, and a prequel, and a guide book called the World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time. They contain much useful infortaion when discussing the Wheel of Time, you should check them out sometime.

:D I've read them. You haven't referenced them. In fact, you got nothing worthy to be called evidence on basis of your own principles.

 

Why haven't you answered my (repeated) posts?

Because I have no reason to give any more answer to them than I have. Those discussed in this thread are answered in this thread, those not from this thread are not relevant. You have been told that, but it just hasn't sunk in. Repeating it doesn't mean you have a better point, it just makes you seem like an obnoxious, little twerp.

You have answered NOTHING. It's all "warm air". Nothing more.

 

Is there any evidence to suggest Ishamael is not the strongest? No. That Aginor is not the next strongest man? No. That Lanfear is not strongest woman? No. That she is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with. That Demandred can, at best, be fourth? No. That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No. That Demandred surpasses Aginor? No. That we can place Semi or Mesaana in relation to anyone else, save Lanfear? No. That we can place Be'lal? No. There is nothing of substance - usually nothing at all - to contradict anything I have said in this thread.

...

S**t or get off the pot, boy.

Mr Ares, Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »

Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork.

…

Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

So when I say what little evidence we have supports certain placements, and we have no evidence to contradict them or to place any other Chosen, your response is to idiotically repost what I said. As usual, reposting my words does your point no favours. Quite the reverse.

Your respons further back exactly fits the situation you described later on.

 

That she [Lanfear] is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with.

Nothing has been "dealt with". BWB says:..."possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael".

And there is nothing to say that possibility is not the correct one, is there? Therefore, we accept that she is until new evidence comes along. Because the evidence we are given indicates she is. Evidence still supports my placement, and not your wishful thinking.

There is nothing that says that it must be the correct one. If people can lie to themselves "now", then they could have done it "3 000 years back". They might even have done an honest mistake. It even says that information is sparse and that information could be wrong. All in the BWB. The ONE and ONLY book you seem to trust completely. Your proposed "evidence" don't live up to your own standards. And yet you call them "facts".

 

"Possibly" DOES NOT equal an actual fact.

 

 

That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No.

Has RJ said so?

Is that relevant? No. We have no reason to believe she isn't. As there is a limit to strength, and someone must be at it, and we know of no-one stronger than Lanfear, it is entirely possible, probable even, that she is at the femal maximum, especially given this comment:

"She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.". She believes herself strongest, and as we are presented with no reason not to accept it we do so, provisionally. The evidence we currently have suggests that she is as strong as a woman can be. We are always prepared to revise our opinions in the face of new data.

"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absence", right?

 

That we can place Be'lal? No.

Then he might be stronger than Aginor and Lanfear. As far as we can tell. "The Forsaken of which the least is known.", or something like that.

Appeal to ignorance. We don't know, therefore he must be. No. He might be at any strength, but unless and until we have the evidence to place him somewhere, we cannot place him anywhere. If what little evidence we have says Ishy is strongest, etc., then, no matter the caveats, we should be prepared to accept this evidence for the time being, while awaiting further information.

I haven't said that he must be. Again, read what I write before you post. I said that he very well could be. There's a difference, you know.

 

You are a long way short of my methods, boy.

I agree, I'm much more consistent than you are.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

:D I've read them. You haven't referenced them. In fact, you got nothing worthy to be called evidence on basis of your own principles.

Don't pretend you understand my priciples, boy.

 

You have answered NOTHING.

I have answered everything relevant and worth answering, and much that isn't worth answering. You posts, for example.

 

Your respons further back exactly fits the situation you described later on.

....Yes, that sequence of words you said made perfect sense....

 

There is nothing that says that it must be the correct one.

Nothing that says it isn't. If we are told Lanfear is the strongest woman, possibly second strongest Chosen and probably as strong as it's possible for a woman to be, then why should we disregard that when we have nothing to the contrary? It might not be much to go on, but a little is better than nothing. Until we have evidence to challenge her provisional placement as second strongst Chosen, we should accept that she is. That is my standard of evidence. Because the evidence leans in one direction. Again, cease the pretence of knowing my standards of evidence, because clearly you don't. The mere fact of having standards of evidence beyond what you want to be true is a start. If the scant evidence we have suggests she is strongest woman, possibly second strongst, then unless and until we have a reason to challenge that placement we accept it. Because to deny what little we have by way of evidence does us no favours.

 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", right?

Right. Relevance? None. If we are told x, then we should accept x until we have good reason not to. We have been told Lanfear is as strong as a woman can be, and should accept tat until we have good reason not to - a woman being stronger would be a good indicator, or a statement from RJ. This is not an absence of evidence you are talking about, it is denying what little evidence we had because someone had the temerity to disagree with your absurd ravings.

 

I said that he very well could be. There's a difference, you know.

And no relevance either way, because, as you might know if you read what I wrote, rather than just what you would like me to have written, is that we cannot place him. Anywhere. Your comments are irrelevant.

 

You are a long way short of my methods, boy.

I agree, I'm much more consistent than you are.

No, you are a consistent fantasist, while I consistently look at the facts.

[Nightstrike]

Your response further back exactly fits the situation you described later on.

....Yes, that sequence of words you said made perfect sense....

What is difficult to understand?  Here they come again.

 

Quote from: Mr Ares on June 24, 2009, 04:10:41 AM

Is there any evidence to suggest Ishamael is not the strongest? No. That Aginor is not the next strongest man? No. That Lanfear is not strongest woman? No. That she is not second strongest overall? One quote, dealt with. That Demandred can, at best, be fourth? No. That Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be? No. That Demandred surpasses Aginor? No. That we can place Semi or Mesaana in relation to anyone else, save Lanfear? No. That we can place Be'lal? No. There is nothing of substance - usually nothing at all - to contradict anything I have said in this thread.

...

S**t or get off the pot, boy.

Mr Ares, Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »

Guesswork a lot of people accept as fact is still guesswork.

…

Comments on strength are pretty thin on the ground. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Here is another study of inconsistent thinking.

 

 

Mr Ares

Re: Who is stronger?

« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2009, 12:58:41 AM »

It is possible to partially hide strength in the Power [speaking of a man], at least for women.

 

Yes, but not to fake strain - "to overflowing". Aginor was insulted when Rand said that his Gateways would "take too much time".

How do you know that?

 

Mr Ares

Re: Moriane's Role in the New Books

« Reply #33 on: Today at 07:53:39 AM »

…, or something happened that has no evidence to support, that has not been so much as hinted at over the course of eleven books. Eleven books with not a clue to support it, against a theory supported by evidence. Which does your background tell you is more reasonable to support? I take it you have heard of Occam's Razor?

 

Occam's Razor only works when Mr Ares want it to. He is the boss of Occam's Razor.