Who is stronger?

[Nightstrike]

Rand versus Asmo & the DO's statements makes it clear that Asmo was the weakling among the male Forsaken.

Which statements, specifically? I don't recall anything that places him on the bottom of the heap. In fact, this article attempts to discuss the relative strengths of the male Chosen, and while it places Asmo on the bottom of the heap, it gives less than compelling reasons to do so, and admits that. The evidence for placing Asmo at the bottom is pretty tenuous. So, his placement at the end cannot be confirmation of your absurd theory.

Even if you insist on disregarding Asmo as the weakest (I think the evidence is pretty compelling, but anyway...), 1 to 1 120 is still mindblowing odds for the list.

 

Demandred, Sammael & Be'lal joined the Shadow late. Makes a supposed "mistake" likely.

Why?

Rahvin probably joined late as well (but we have no information about that).

And even if he did, so what?

Those 4 are mentioned among the 5 last male Forsaken - just before Asmo. So those 4 shouldn't be included in the strength comparisons.

Ah, so it is in strength order, except for four of the men in the middle. And never stated to be in strength order. Your ridiculous assertion becomes ever more undefendable. It places the top two in strength order, and that's it. And that could be for any number of reasons beyond a desire to put it in strength order, which we know they didn't do. Nor did they have any reason to do.

No, it's in attempted strength order, at least for the original list. Those added later could be added in wrong order, or perhaps in no order at all. All I know is that the list isn't in random order.

 

Lanfear first among women.

She is also, like Ishamael among the men, the first to appear and the most important, and therefore it makes sense for her to be first.

Yes, it does indeed make sense for people to order them according to strength.

....What? Aside from the fact that it doesn't, I didn't say it did. I said it made sense to put Lanfear first, becasue she was both the first female Chosen introduced into the story, and also the most important to the story.

It does make sense to order them according to strength. That's probably why they did order them that way. When Lanfear was introduced into the story has nothing to do with the list in the BWB.

 

Aginor wasn't even in the top end of the pyramid

What pyramid? We know that at the time of the Strike, he was among the most important Chosen, they all were, but we can't really rank them in terms of importance to the story, not without introducing and enormous amount of subjectivity. Except for Ishamael at the top.

The pyramid that RJ mentions (I think it was in TOR question of the Week). I think 3 men and 3 women were mentioned. Aginor wasn't one of them.

 

He was listed second among the male Forsaken, despite not being in the top end of the pyramid.

What pyramid?

See above.

 

His strength was at the top, though, at least before Demandred joined.

And even after Demandred joined. He was second strongest.

Even the BWB itself mentions that information could be wrong in it. Aginor was the second strongest man according to the BWB, but we don't know if it's correct. It probably was correct at some point, when someone wrote it down. Information could be added later, without correcting previous entries. We have no way of knowing. It's a measure of "realism" that some information could be wrong.

 

The listing in the BWB is not random.

You base that on what? We know it isn't strength, but we don't know what, if any, criteria were used to determine order. Perhaps it was a purely aesthetic choice, with RJ deciding this way "felt" best, or perhaps he did it in order of penis size for the men. Maybe he just pulled names out of a hat.

I base it upon 1 to 6 000. Or as you prefer, 1 to 1 200. Pretty high odds for random entries. I've already explained that.

 

I've not placed Moghedien anywhere, except below Lanfear & Graendal, in that comparison.

You place her as weakest woman, which we do not have evidence to sustain, in order to support your absurd theory about this being done according to strength when we know it isn't.

No. As I said, I've not placed Moghedien anywhere, except below Lanfear & Graendal. In the comparison I've done in this thread.

 

Nightstrike, I'm sorry but you've missed the obvious--the writer of the BWB knows Demandred's relative strength. She states that '"Almost" seems to be the tale of [Demandred's] life. Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength, and almost as much skill.'

No, I've not missed that. It did say he was "almost" as strong as Rand. The bottom entries of male Forsaken (except for poor Asmo) are all late-comers to the party of the Shadow. They don't fit the picture formed by the other entries. The entries are all fitting perfectly with the order of strength, except for 4 of the men that joined late. They are probably added later, and not in order of strength. This is no random order. The odds for that are astronomical. Almost astronomical perhaps, but still extremely high.

 

That was no mistake. She knew Demandred stood either equal to Aginor, or greater than him. Yet she placed him fifth.

You and Mr Ares (among others) have argued in the past on how Aginor is stronger than Demandred. So maybe she didn't know what you think she knew. Or, maybe they added them later than the others, without much concern about how things had been done before.

 

There is no hidden order to her description of the Forsaken.

The odds are at least 1 to 1 120 for a random order. I wouldn't bet on those odds (not that I bet on anything whatsoever anyway, but you know what I mean... ).

 

 

 

[Luckers]

It's done with Nightstrike. Let it go.

 

One thing I will say.

 

You and Mr Ares (among others) have argued in the past on how Aginor is stronger than Demandred.

 

I've actually never argued that. To my mind the comments suggest that they are either equal, or that Demandred was stronger. I do concede that these comments are subjective, and thus it is possible that Aginor is stronger--but I've certainly never suggested it.

[Mr Ares]

Even if you insist on disregarding Asmo as the weakest (I think the evidence is pretty compelling, but anyway...), 1 to 1 200 is still mindblowing odds for the list.

Not really.

 

No, it's in attempted strength order, at least for the original list. Those added later could be added in wrong order, or perhaps in no order at all. All I know is that the list isn't in random order.

You know that how? And if those added later are not in strength order, then you undermine your point. Why should any of them be, if we know most aren't?

 

It does make sense to order them according to strength.

No more so than any other way of listing them. Alphabetically, by first appearance, by number of appearances, height, weight, age, number of sexual partners (Ishy gets around a bit, in that case), the order RJ came up with them. Why does strength make so much more sense?

That's probably why they did order them that way.

Except they didn't.

When Lanfear was introduced into the story has nothing to do with the list in the BWB.

You know that how? Nor, so far as we know, was her strength the reason for her placement.

 

The pyramid that RJ mentions (I think it was in TOR question of the Week). I think 3 men and 3 women were mentioned. Aginor wasn't one of them.

Find the quote, and we will se if it says what you say it says. Most likely it doesn't. I recall RJ once listing three men and women who were always among the top ranked Chosen.

 

I base it upon 1 to 6 000. Or as you prefer, 1 to 1 200. Pretty high odds for random entries. I've already explained that.

What makes this particular order more unlikely than any other given order?

 

As I said, I've not placed Moghedien anywhere

You say the list is according to strength, therefore you place her at the bottom as she is listed last.

 

They don't fit the picture formed by the other entries.

There is no picture formed by the other entries except in your mind.

The entries are all fitting perfectly with the order of strength, except for 4 of the men that joined late.

And the number we can't place definitively. The men should be: Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred. They aren't. As for the women, we know Lanfear is strongest. So there is one placment. We do not know who is next, nor who is after her, and so on. So we place one woman and two men according to strength, and at least one man not according to strength, and the four men who came late are, according to you, just randomly slotted in the middle in no particular order. Ridiculous. Utterly absurd.

This is no random order.

Yes, it is. So far as we have any reason to believe.

[Luckers]

Ah, Ares. Touch Not the Thistle?

 

Without impunity doesn't mean without blows being scored.

[Nightstrike]

No, it's in attempted strength order, at least for the original list. Those added later could be added in wrong order, or perhaps in no order at all. All I know is that the list isn't in random order.

You know that how? And if those added later are not in strength order, then you undermine your point. Why should any of them be, if we know most aren't?

It's the other way around. Most are. Exceptions for those 4 that were late to the party. Try reading what I write.

 

I base it upon 1 to 6 000. Or as you prefer, 1 to 1 200. Pretty high odds for random entries. I've already explained that.

What makes this particular order more unlikely than any other given order?

But, that's the point. What makes this order more likely/unlikely than any other given order? What makes any other order any more likely/unlikely than this order?

 

As I said, I've not placed Moghedien anywhere

You say the list is according to strength, therefore you place her at the bottom as she is listed last.

No, in my comparison in this thread I only placed her below Lanfear and Graendal. Try reading what I write.

 

The entries are all fitting perfectly with the order of strength, except for 4 of the men that joined late.

And the number we can't place definitively. The men should be: Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred. They aren't. As for the women, we know Lanfear is strongest. So there is one placment. We do not know who is next, nor who is after her, and so on. So we place one woman and two men according to strength, and at least one man not according to strength, and the four men who came late are, according to you, just randomly slotted in the middle in no particular order. Ridiculous. Utterly absurd.

The number we can't place doesn't count either way. They speak neither for or against anything. How do you know the order should be Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred? You, who claim we can't know anything. "Utterly absurd", as you say.

 

Oh, and if you're gonna keep this up, please try to read up on what I've written until next time. Answering a post without having read it is, and I quote you, "ridiculous".

[Luckers]

See my point Ares?

[Nightstrike]

You and Mr Ares (among others) have argued in the past on how Aginor is stronger than Demandred.

 

I've actually never argued that. To my mind the comments suggest that they are either equal, or that Demandred was stronger. I do concede that these comments are subjective, and thus it is possible that Aginor is stronger--but I've certainly never suggested it.

Re: One Power strength

« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2008, 06:14:02 AM »

Aginor should be above Demandred. This too is directly stated in the text.

 

Re: How strong is Lanfear?

« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2008, 04:39:21 AM »

The BWB, you forget, was ostensibly written by someone after the Breaking of the World--as such its statements of Aginors strength date from after Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined. As for your second point--he was outranked politically, not in the power.

 

Re: One Power strength

« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2008, 06:30:17 AM »

We can, functionally, deduce that Moridin and Rand are the same strength, and a step below them is Lanfear, and that directly under that comes Aginor, followed very closely by Demandred, Taim and Logain.

 

Beyond that everything goes blurry.

 

 

[Luckers]

Alright, I said it. I appologise that i said i didn't--in my defence i genuinaly don't remember doing so--but actually now that you state my comments i do see the logic in my own arguments. It is possible that Aginor is stronger. It may even be likely. So let me revise my previous statements--Demandred is either stronger than, at the same strength as, or slightly weaker than Aginor.

 

What precisely did you think this would prove Nightstrike? I mean, i do appreciate your help in clarifying my position--but you're not serving your argument in doing so. The order in the BWB is still wrong--Demandred is still stronger than Balthemel, Sammael and Be'lal. The writer still knew this.

 

In effect you are still wrong.

[dholm]

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen -- Rahvin thinks he and Sammael both are capable of overpowering Lanfear:

TFoH, Prologue:

“Is he really so strong?” Rahvin asked quietly. “This Rand al’Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?” Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael, though Graendal would likely link with Lanfear if either of the men tried.

 

We also know that three names are rare and denote accomplishments/fame during the Age of Legends. These Forsaken have three names: Ishamael (Elan Morin Tedronai), Aginor (Ishar Morrad Chuain), Demandred (Barid Bel Medar), Sammael (Tel Janin Aellinsar), Be'lal (Duram Laddel Cham), Asmodean (Joar Addam Nessosin), Semirhage (Nemene Damendar Boann), and Graendal (Karamile Maradim Nindar). This doesn't prove anything with regards to their strength in the One Power, obviously, but it is still better than nothing. The absence of a third name probably says something as well.

 

Considering everything I have heard, I'd put the thirteen Chosen in the following order:

-Ishamael/Moridin

-Aginor/Osan'gar

-Demandred

-Sammael

-Be'lal

-Rahvin

-Lanfear

-Asmodean

-Graendal

-Balthamel/Aran'gar

-Semirhage

-Mesaana

-Moghedien

[Nightstrike]

What precisely did you think this would prove Nightstrike?

Go back in the thread. Read the debate that prompted our responses.

 

I mean, i do appreciate your help in clarifying my position--but you're not serving your argument in doing so.

The part that prompted those exchanges was probably helped. For the rest - I've covered that also.

 

The order in the BWB is still wrong

I agree. Aginor wasn't the second strongest among the 8 male Forsaken, for example. The BWB even starts off with explaining that there will be mistakes in the book. In a way that simulates "real life" errors. Supposedly, at least.

 

--Demandred is still stronger than Balthemel, Sammael and Be'lal.

Prove it. I'll hold you to your's and Mr Ares' standards of how to prove things.

 

The writer still knew this.

First of all, prove it. And which writer are we even talking about? The one that added the 4 late-comers just before the weakling Asmodean, or the first writer? Or, maybe the writers that tried to conserve the information during later generations - those might even have been the ones that added the 4 late-comers into that first list?

 

 

[Thor]

be lal is weak, he got owned by moiraine, who isn't anywhere near rand's strength even with an angreal.

 

demandred we don't know, we haven't actually seen him doing anything (that we know of, but heck, taim is supposed to be a modern day depiction of demandred's fall so there's probably some hints of his strength there).

 

sammael we also won't know, except that he was stronger than graendal or at least enough to intimidate her into submission.  (even if it was with the lie about being naeblis, if graendal was stronger than sammuel, she could have destroyed him on the spot, naeblis or not.  in fact, she probably would have more motivation to kill sammuel, if she could, if he really was naeblis.)

 

balthamel is a lecher.  ill-disciplined mind cannot hold much strength.

 

so only demandred and sammuel's relative strength is really a dispute.

[Astus]

be lal is weak, he got owned by moiraine, who isn't anywhere near rand's strength even with an angreal.

It was not his lack of strength that led to his downfall, rather it was arrogance. Fristly, he had not expected Moiraine's presence due to the ter'angreal that was meant to trap her but even with that surprise, he utterly dismissed her as posing any threat whatsoever. While going his typical bad guy tangent about pitiful she was before him, she was already weaving balefire and by the time he had finished his little speech and began to weave something of his own, she had completed her weave and smoked him. His exclamation before he was erased was of surprise and horror, signalling that he had not expected her to know balefire. If someone smokes you with balefire, their strength in proportion to yours is irrelevant.

 

My point is, he was a tool who thought everything would go according to his plan. Like a typical lawyer ;P

We barely know anything about where his strength lies. Or anything else about him for that matter, save for the little passage from The Guide.

[dholm]

We know almost as little of Rahvin's strength as we know of Be'lal's -- but Rahvin had only two names, and so weren't famous, whereas Be'lal had three. It is just as likely his fame was for something not connected to the Power at all, but it's something, at least.

 

Be'lal's death proves absolutely nothing one way or another; any of the Chosen would have died if Moiraine managed to surprise them with balefire.

[Luckers]

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen

 

Why? The male average strength is stronger than the female average, and the male top strength is a step or two above the female--which means Ishamael and Rand are definately stronger than Lanfear--possibly Aginor and Demandred too, or at the very least they would be equal to Lanfear.

 

But where in that places the other men above the women (I will adress the Rahvin comment in a moment).

 

 

Rahvin thinks he and Sammael both are capable of overpowering Lanfear:

 

Quote

TFoH, Prologue:

“Is he really so strong?” Rahvin asked quietly. “This Rand al’Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?” Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael, though Graendal would likely link with Lanfear if either of the men tried.

 

 

Firstly, RJ has stated several times that the Forsaken lie to themselves about their strengths relative to other Forsaken, and that that can't be trusted. From there we have Moghedian's comment to Nynaeve that she would love Rahvin to meet Nynaeve unblocked, implying that Nynaeve is either as strong as, or stronger than Rahvin. This could also be hubris on Moghedian's part, but I trust it more than I do Rahvin's comment--Moghedian was referring to a third person in the comparison.

 

Either was we can't trust the Forsaken's comments about their own strengths. Given that Aginor and Demandred are stated to be the strongest male Forsaken its unlikely Rahvin or Sammael were actually as strong as Lanfear.

 

We also know that three names are rare and denote accomplishments/fame during the Age of Legends. These Forsaken have three names: Ishamael (Elan Morin Tedronai), Aginor (Ishar Morrad Chuain), Demandred (Barid Bel Medar), Sammael (Tel Janin Aellinsar), Be'lal (Duram Laddel Cham), Asmodean (Joar Addam Nessosin), Semirhage (Nemene Damendar Boann), and Graendal (Karamile Maradim Nindar). This doesn't prove anything with regards to their strength in the One Power, obviously, but it is still better than nothing. The absence of a third name probably says something as well.

 

It says nothing to their strength in the Power--it is, in effect, not better than nothing. Lanfear was the strongest woman and she had no third name.

 

Quote

The order in the BWB is still wrong

 

I agree. Aginor wasn't the second strongest among the 8 male Forsaken, for example. The BWB even starts off with explaining that there will be mistakes in the book. In a way that simulates "real life" errors. Supposedly, at least.

 

Sorry, the order is not wrong, your idea that the order is based on strength is wrong.

 

Yes, the writer is supposed to be human, and within the story, and thus would be wrong at times (indeed there are things which are wrong withing the BWB). But the writer knew Demandred's strength relative to the others, and states her knowledge of this.

 

Your idea that that the way she lays out the Forsaken's biographies being based on strength is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is.

 

be lal is weak, he got owned by moiraine, who isn't anywhere near rand's strength even with an angreal.

 

Actually with an angreal Moiraine would have been damn close to Rand's strength, if not stronger. It does depend on the angreal--though hers seemed to be pretty strong. The one that Elayne gives Aviendha would have given her twice Nynaeve's strength--which means stronger than Rand.

 

That being said there is no indication Moiraine used her angreal. She did not defeat Be'lal because of strength--she balefired him. Even a woman not strong enough to gain the shawl could have done that. It implies nothing about Be'lal's strength.

 

demandred we don't know, we haven't actually seen him doing anything (that we know of, but heck, taim is supposed to be a modern day depiction of demandred's fall so there's probably some hints of his strength there).

 

Demandred is stated to be 'almost' as strong and Lews Therin.

 

balthamel is a lecher.  ill-disciplined mind cannot hold much strength.

 

Why on earth is that?

 

We know almost as little of Rahvin's strength as we know of Be'lal's -- but Rahvin had only two names, and so weren't famous, whereas Be'lal had three. It is just as likely his fame was for something not connected to the Power at all, but it's something, at least.

 

No, it is not something. Gaining a third name had no relation to strength in the Power. There were millions of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Hundreds, if not thousands of Forsaken level strength. Achievement, not strength, gained the name. The lack implies nothing.

[dholm]

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen

 

Why? The male average strength is stronger than the female average, and the male top strength is a step or two above the female--which means Ishamael and Rand are definately stronger than Lanfear--possibly Aginor and Demandred too, or at the very least they would be equal to Lanfear.

 

But where in that places the other men above the women (I will adress the Rahvin comment in a moment).

There's also the fact that the men hold their own against Rand, who is quite possibly the strongest channeler alive at the moment.

 

Rahvin thinks he and Sammael both are capable of overpowering Lanfear:

 

Quote

TFoH, Prologue:

“Is he really so strong?” Rahvin asked quietly. “This Rand al’Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?” Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael, though Graendal would likely link with Lanfear if either of the men tried.

 

Firstly, RJ has stated several times that the Forsaken lie to themselves about their strengths relative to other Forsaken, and that that can't be trusted. From there we have Moghedian's comment to Nynaeve that she would love Rahvin to meet Nynaeve unblocked, implying that Nynaeve is either as strong as, or stronger than Rahvin. This could also be hubris on Moghedian's part, but I trust it more than I do Rahvin's comment--Moghedian was referring to a third person in the comparison.

 

Either was we can't trust the Forsaken's comments about their own strengths. Given that Aginor and Demandred are stated to be the strongest male Forsaken its unlikely Rahvin or Sammael were actually as strong as Lanfear.

Moghedien is an idiot.

Rahvin might have lied to himself about his own strength. If he did, it paints a very different picture of the Chosen, but I honestly do not believe it. What I will believe is that he might not have been aware of Lanfear's true strength.

 

We also know that three names are rare and denote accomplishments/fame during the Age of Legends. These Forsaken have three names: Ishamael (Elan Morin Tedronai), Aginor (Ishar Morrad Chuain), Demandred (Barid Bel Medar), Sammael (Tel Janin Aellinsar), Be'lal (Duram Laddel Cham), Asmodean (Joar Addam Nessosin), Semirhage (Nemene Damendar Boann), and Graendal (Karamile Maradim Nindar). This doesn't prove anything with regards to their strength in the One Power, obviously, but it is still better than nothing. The absence of a third name probably says something as well.

 

It says nothing to their strength in the Power--it is, in effect, not better than nothing. Lanfear was the strongest woman and she had no third name.

Wrong. It is better than nothing, because many accomplishments would be made easier by greater strength in the One Power. It is not good evidence by any means, but it IS something.

 

We know almost as little of Rahvin's strength as we know of Be'lal's -- but Rahvin had only two names, and so weren't famous, whereas Be'lal had three. It is just as likely his fame was for something not connected to the Power at all, but it's something, at least.

 

No, it is not something. Gaining a third name had no relation to strength in the Power. There were millions of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Hundreds, if not thousands of Forsaken level strength. Achievement, not strength, gained the name. The lack implies nothing.

Strength in the One Power will ease the way to achievements. It is nothing definite, but it is there. Ignoring it is foolish, when we have so little information.

 

Especially since the more strength in the One Power you have, the longer you have to attain said achievements.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen

 

Why? The male average strength is stronger than the female average, and the male top strength is a step or two above the female--which means Ishamael and Rand are definately stronger than Lanfear--possibly Aginor and Demandred too, or at the very least they would be equal to Lanfear.

 

But where in that places the other men above the women (I will adress the Rahvin comment in a moment).

 

 

There's also the fact that the men hold their own against Rand, who is quite possibly the strongest channeler alive at the moment.

 

Firstly, he is not the strongest channeler alive--even if he has reached his full strength Moridin equals him.

 

Secondly, when he fought Rahvin he was not yet at his full strength, and he never openly faced Sammael. The fight with Be'lal was not a fight with the power, and who knows what was going on with the fight with Asmodean.

 

Thirdly, knowledge plays more than strength--witness Cyndane holding her own against Alivia with an angreal and those ter'angreal--in effect fighting a woman with more than twice her strength and ter'angreal that back fighting.

 

Fourthly how does this speak to the women being weaker than the men. In the only times we've seen Rand fight against women, the women have been winning.

 

Moghedien is an idiot.

Rahvin might have lied to himself about his own strength. If he did, it paints a very different picture of the Chosen, but I honestly do not believe it. What I will believe is that he might not have been aware of Lanfear's true strength.

 

Moghedian is most definately not an idiot. She is a coward. But she is dangerously smart. Why do you think people named her the spider? Why do you think the other Forsaken are wary of her inspite of her cowardice?

 

And keep in mind that RJ himself made the comment about the Forsaken lying to themselves about their own strengths.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

We also know that three names are rare and denote accomplishments/fame during the Age of Legends. These Forsaken have three names: Ishamael (Elan Morin Tedronai), Aginor (Ishar Morrad Chuain), Demandred (Barid Bel Medar), Sammael (Tel Janin Aellinsar), Be'lal (Duram Laddel Cham), Asmodean (Joar Addam Nessosin), Semirhage (Nemene Damendar Boann), and Graendal (Karamile Maradim Nindar). This doesn't prove anything with regards to their strength in the One Power, obviously, but it is still better than nothing. The absence of a third name probably says something as well.

 

It says nothing to their strength in the Power--it is, in effect, not better than nothing. Lanfear was the strongest woman and she had no third name.

 

 

Wrong. It is better than nothing, because many accomplishments would be made easier by greater strength in the One Power. It is not good evidence by any means, but it IS something.

 

No, I'm sorry. Lews Therin, Demandred and Be'lal gained their third names through their political expertise and their abilities as a general. Nothing to do with the Power. Semirhage through her Talent as a healer, which is a Talent and thus not subject to strength. Graendal gained hers through her expertise as a psychologist which has nothing to do with the Power. Ishamael gained his through his philosophical wisdom, again nothing to do with the power. Asmodean gained his through his abilities as a musician, again nothing to do with the power.

 

Of all those you list only Aginor may have needed strength--and honestly i even doubt that--genetical enginering implies finese to me, not strength.

 

Again, there were millions of channelers in the Age of Legends--not to mention billions of non-channelers. Strength means nothing.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

We know almost as little of Rahvin's strength as we know of Be'lal's -- but Rahvin had only two names, and so weren't famous, whereas Be'lal had three. It is just as likely his fame was for something not connected to the Power at all, but it's something, at least.

 

 

No, it is not something. Gaining a third name had no relation to strength in the Power. There were millions of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Hundreds, if not thousands of Forsaken level strength. Achievement, not strength, gained the name. The lack implies nothing.

 

Strength in the One Power will ease the way to achievements. It is nothing definite, but it is there. Ignoring it is foolish, when we have so little information.

 

How would strength in the power help Ishamael write philosophical treatise? Or aid Graendal with her psychological endevours (its stated that the power could not help with illnesses of the mind). We also know that strength in the power--nor indeed having the ability to channel--gained you political power so Be'lal, Demandred and Lews Therin are out. And of course healing is a talent which is irrespective of strength (as proved by Sumeko) so Semirhage is done.

 

Where, precisely, do we have so little information that we must assume that strength was the cause of these peoples success? Aginor. Maybe.

 

Especially since the more strength in the One Power you have, the longer you have to attain said achievements.

 

Many non-channelers had the third name, and held positions of authority. More than that the difference between an average strength channeler and a strong channeler in the Age of Legends would have been the difference between 650 years and 700 years. I don't think this is an issue.

[Mr Ares]

It's the other way around. Most are. Exceptions for those 4 that were late to the party. Try reading what I write.

Why is it that the only people who tell me to read what they write are those who talk crap? Those who don't make good points? Those who are losing the argument? Those who aren't saying anything worth re-reading? The first two men are placed according to strength: Ishamael and Aginor. After that, none of the others are. You yourself admit that most of the remainder aren't, among the men. Yet you still maintain that it cannot be a random order, despite admitting that some of it is and providing no reason why it cannot be random, besides the odds of it coming up like that if random which are exactly the same as any other combination.

 

But, that's the point. What makes this order more likely/unlikely than any other given order? What makes any other order any more likely/unlikely than this order?

Nothing. We have one order triumphing over a number of equally unlikely orders. It has to be one of them, there are only a finite number of possibilities, so why not this one? The odds of this are the same as any other. So there is no point.

 

No, in my comparison in this thread I only placed her below Lanfear and Graendal. Try reading what I write.

I do read what you write, and more fool me for doing so because it is almost invariably shite. According to you, the list is according to strength. So, according to you, Moggy and Asmo are the weakest of their respective genders. But we have no real reason to put them at the bottom. So the only real reason to put them at the bottom is that the list is according to strength, and the only real reason the list is according to strength is because they are the weakest. You have absolutely no reason to say the list is according to strength, nor that any placement on it is according to strength. And then you admit many of them are placed randomly anyway, so in a large part it isn't according to strength. At best, two thirds of the list is, but even then we have no reason to believe it is in most cases. We place Lanfear in relation to the other women, Graendal in relation to Lanfear, Moghedien in relation to Graendal, but not Mesaana or Semirhage in relation to anyone. To base a theory on that is ludicrous.

 

The number we can't place doesn't count either way. They speak neither for or against anything. How do you know the order should be Ishamael, Aginor, Demandred? You, who claim we can't know anything. "Utterly absurd", as you say.

Well, if Demandred is little short of LTT, yet Aginor is second, he cannot be above third, nor can he be below unless you have reason to place any of the others above him. Given the evidence we have, he should be. There is nothing to say otherwise. Now, either talk sense or shut up, which with regards to this theory means no longer talking about it either way. You have nothing to support you, not one word, not one line. Nothing.

 

See my point Ares?

No. I see only that any blows he might land will hurt him a lot more than they hurt me. And he has yet to land any blow worth mentioning.

 

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen.

Lanfear is second strongest Chosen.

Rahvin thinks he and Sammael both are capable of overpowering Lanfear:

He is lying to himself.

it is still better than nothing.

No, it isn't.

 

Aginor wasn't the second strongest among the 8 male Forsaken, for example.

So you further hamper your own argument by claiming that one of the few people who you do have a case to support is actually in the wrong place. So full of errors and random ordering that we cannot rely on this for any sort of order of strength. In effect, it is according to strength except where it isn't, which is where it was done randomly or a mistake was made, which means that it is actually worthless for getting any idea of strength order as it isn't done in strength order, but it still is and so we can come up with an order of strength based on it.

 

be lal is weak

No evidence to support that.

 

demandred we don't know

Yes, we do.

 

sammael we also won't know, except that he was stronger than graendal or at least enough to intimidate her into submission.

Nothing to do with strength.

 

balthamel is a lecher. ill-disciplined mind cannot hold much strength.

No evidence to support character having an impact on strength.

 

There's also the fact that the men hold their own against Rand, who is quite possibly the strongest channeler alive at the moment.

Rahvin holds his own in a running battle, not a test of strength, Sammael likewise. Their strengths relative to Rand are impossible to determine with any degree of accuracy. Also, knowledge is more important than strength. Cyndane survives encounter with substantially stronger channeler in Alivia due to greater knowledge.

 

Moghedien is an idiot.

False and irrelevant.

Rahvin might have lied to himself about his own strength. If he did, it paints a very different picture of the Chosen, but I honestly do not believe it.

RJ's words against yours.

 

Wrong. It is better than nothing

No, it isn't. They put no value in strength. The strongest woman, the second strongest Chosen, had only two names. Worthless. They put no value in strength.

 

Strength in the One Power will ease the way to achievements.

Not necessarily. And even if so, it is still nothing to go on.

[Kivam]

No evidence to support that.

 

This is a sentence fragment.  It should be:

 

"There is no evidence to support that."

[Mr Ares]

No evidence to support that.

This is a sentence fragment.

Never stopped me before.

[dholm]

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen.

Lanfear is second strongest Chosen.

I have yet to see any proof of this. At all. She is the strongest female Chosen.

 

Rahvin thinks he and Sammael both are capable of overpowering Lanfear:

He is lying to himself.

Prove it.

 

it is still better than nothing.

No, it isn't.

Sigh.

 

In a vacuum, with NO OTHER INFORMATION, it is some information. It is not evidence. It is not even a good indication. But it is better than nothing.

 

There's also the fact that the men hold their own against Rand, who is quite possibly the strongest channeler alive at the moment.

Rahvin holds his own in a running battle, not a test of strength, Sammael likewise. Their strengths relative to Rand are impossible to determine with any degree of accuracy. Also, knowledge is more important than strength. Cyndane survives encounter with substantially stronger channeler in Alivia due to greater knowledge.

When did I ever claim it wasn't?

 

Moghedien is an idiot.

False and irrelevant.

It certainly is not. Moghedien cannot sense Rahvin's strength any more than Rahvin can sense Lanfear's. Moghedien can claim she would like to see Nynaeve face Rahvin unblocked; it proves jack.

 

Rahvin might have lied to himself about his own strength. If he did, it paints a very different picture of the Chosen, but I honestly do not believe it.

RJ's words against yours.

Did he specifically mention Rahvin?

 

Wrong. It is better than nothing

No, it isn't. They put no value in strength. The strongest woman, the second strongest Chosen, had only two names. Worthless. They put no value in strength.

Of course they put value in strength. They also put value in other things, such as political, philosophical and medical acumen. That doesn't mean they dismiss strength as useless.

 

Strength in the One Power will ease the way to achievements.

Not necessarily. And even if so, it is still nothing to go on.

It is more than zero. Even if it is 0.000001 more, it's more.

[Luckers]

Care to respond to my comments?

[dholm]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

I'm pretty certain most, if not all, of the male Chosen are stronger than all of the female Chosen

 

Why? The male average strength is stronger than the female average, and the male top strength is a step or two above the female--which means Ishamael and Rand are definately stronger than Lanfear--possibly Aginor and Demandred too, or at the very least they would be equal to Lanfear.

 

But where in that places the other men above the women (I will adress the Rahvin comment in a moment).

 

 

There's also the fact that the men hold their own against Rand, who is quite possibly the strongest channeler alive at the moment.

 

Firstly, he is not the strongest channeler alive--even if he has reached his full strength Moridin equals him.

 

Secondly, when he fought Rahvin he was not yet at his full strength, and he never openly faced Sammael. The fight with Be'lal was not a fight with the power, and who knows what was going on with the fight with Asmodean.

 

Thirdly, knowledge plays more than strength--witness Cyndane holding her own against Alivia with an angreal and those ter'angreal--in effect fighting a woman with more than twice her strength and ter'angreal that back fighting.

 

Fourthly how does this speak to the women being weaker than the men. In the only times we've seen Rand fight against women, the women have been winning.

If Moridin equals Rand, that simply means they are both the strongest channeler alive.

 

The fights with Rahvin and Sammael do not prove anything one way or another, I'll grant that.

 

Moghedien is an idiot.

Rahvin might have lied to himself about his own strength. If he did, it paints a very different picture of the Chosen, but I honestly do not believe it. What I will believe is that he might not have been aware of Lanfear's true strength.

 

Moghedian is most definately not an idiot. She is a coward. But she is dangerously smart. Why do you think people named her the spider? Why do you think the other Forsaken are wary of her inspite of her cowardice?

 

And keep in mind that RJ himself made the comment about the Forsaken lying to themselves about their own strengths.

Again... Moghedien cannot possibly know Rahvin's strength for an absolute certainty, unless she has fought him before (which I doubt she has). It's pretty much the exact same argument you come with for Rahvin not being able to match Lanfear.

 

Regardless, I didn't truly mean the insult; I was being flippant. I don't like Moghedien.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

We also know that three names are rare and denote accomplishments/fame during the Age of Legends. These Forsaken have three names: Ishamael (Elan Morin Tedronai), Aginor (Ishar Morrad Chuain), Demandred (Barid Bel Medar), Sammael (Tel Janin Aellinsar), Be'lal (Duram Laddel Cham), Asmodean (Joar Addam Nessosin), Semirhage (Nemene Damendar Boann), and Graendal (Karamile Maradim Nindar). This doesn't prove anything with regards to their strength in the One Power, obviously, but it is still better than nothing. The absence of a third name probably says something as well.

 

It says nothing to their strength in the Power--it is, in effect, not better than nothing. Lanfear was the strongest woman and she had no third name.

 

 

Wrong. It is better than nothing, because many accomplishments would be made easier by greater strength in the One Power. It is not good evidence by any means, but it IS something.

 

No, I'm sorry. Lews Therin, Demandred and Be'lal gained their third names through their political expertise and their abilities as a general. Nothing to do with the Power. Semirhage through her Talent as a healer, which is a Talent and thus not subject to strength. Graendal gained hers through her expertise as a psychologist which has nothing to do with the Power. Ishamael gained his through his philosophical wisdom, again nothing to do with the power. Asmodean gained his through his abilities as a musician, again nothing to do with the power.

 

Of all those you list only Aginor may have needed strength--and honestly i even doubt that--genetical enginering implies finese to me, not strength.

 

Again, there were millions of channelers in the Age of Legends--not to mention billions of non-channelers. Strength means nothing.

Strength is not nearly as important as it is to modern-day Aes Sedai, but saying that it "means nothing" is ludicrous. Of course it means something. In the Age of Legends, everything is about serving -- it is the only way to real status and power. The greater your strength in the One Power, the better you can serve, assuming all other things are equal. Strength in the One Power might not mean as much as political acumen, or medical skills, or philosophical blabbering, but it is hardly of no consequence.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:40:24 AM

Quote

We know almost as little of Rahvin's strength as we know of Be'lal's -- but Rahvin had only two names, and so weren't famous, whereas Be'lal had three. It is just as likely his fame was for something not connected to the Power at all, but it's something, at least.

 

 

No, it is not something. Gaining a third name had no relation to strength in the Power. There were millions of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Hundreds, if not thousands of Forsaken level strength. Achievement, not strength, gained the name. The lack implies nothing.

 

Strength in the One Power will ease the way to achievements. It is nothing definite, but it is there. Ignoring it is foolish, when we have so little information.

 

How would strength in the power help Ishamael write philosophical treatise? Or aid Graendal with her psychological endevours (its stated that the power could not help with illnesses of the mind). We also know that strength in the power--nor indeed having the ability to channel--gained you political power so Be'lal, Demandred and Lews Therin are out. And of course healing is a talent which is irrespective of strength (as proved by Sumeko) so Semirhage is done.

 

Where, precisely, do we have so little information that we must assume that strength was the cause of these peoples success? Aginor. Maybe.

The fact that it didn't help those particular people (and I hesitate to claim it didn't; I have heard nothing about Be'lal's political achievements) does not prove that it cannot help. When we have no other indications of power, it is something. It is not good evidence, but it is there. There's no reason to ignore it.

 

Especially since the more strength in the One Power you have, the longer you have to attain said achievements.

 

Many non-channelers had the third name, and held positions of authority. More than that the difference between an average strength channeler and a strong channeler in the Age of Legends would have been the difference between 650 years and 700 years. I don't think this is an issue.

Perhaps not, but as I said, assuming all other things are equal, the greater strength, the better you can serve -- and the more power and fame you can earn.

[Kivam]

No evidence to support that.

This is a sentence fragment.

Never stopped me before.

 

What never stopped you before?  There's no subject here, just predicate.  *sigh*

[Luckers]

If Moridin equals Rand, that simply means they are both the strongest channeler alive.

 

Assuming Rand has reached his full strength, yes. We don't know this for sure.

 

Again... Moghedien cannot possibly know Rahvin's strength for an absolute certainty, unless she has fought him before (which I doubt she has). It's pretty much the exact same argument you come with for Rahvin not being able to match Lanfear.

 

Regardless, I didn't truly mean the insult; I was being flippant. I don't like Moghedien.

 

In an Age where male and female channelers lived together there is more reason for some degree of knowledge of where people stand.

 

That being said you are right, there is still the potential of hubris in play--as i stated to begin with.

 

The issue is that im more inclined to believed Moghedian than Sammael. Moghedian was referring to a third party whm she clearly dismisssed, yet she specifically stated Rahvin. Rahvin's comments about Lanfear seem much more self-serving.

 

Strength is not nearly as important as it is to modern-day Aes Sedai, but saying that it "means nothing" is ludicrous. Of course it means something. In the Age of Legends, everything is about serving -- it is the only way to real status and power. The greater your strength in the One Power, the better you can serve, assuming all other things are equal. Strength in the One Power might not mean as much as political acumen, or medical skills, or philosophical blabbering, but it is hardly of no consequence.

 

I would challenge you on that. What evidence do you have to sustain it is of consequence--in specific reference to those points--Ishamael's philosophical brilliance, Semirhage's medical brilliance, Graendal's psychological brilliance, Lews Therin/Be'lal/Demandred's poltical and military briiliance.

 

Nothing in their roles or how they gained them required strength. So yes, please provide your basis for claiming strength mattered to these roles.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:19:31 AM

Quote

Especially since the more strength in the One Power you have, the longer you have to attain said achievements.

 

Many non-channelers had the third name, and held positions of authority. More than that the difference between an average strength channeler and a strong channeler in the Age of Legends would have been the difference between 650 years and 700 years. I don't think this is an issue.

 

Perhaps not, but as I said, assuming all other things are equal, the greater strength, the better you can serve -- and the more power and fame you can earn.

 

Why so? Most of the roles of those who gained the third name had nothing to do with the Power.

 

Specifically I am asking you to substantiate your idea that great strength helped with service. Why is this the case, and where is your evidence?

 

And what does all things being equal have to do with anything? Do you think these people arm wrestle for authority?

[dholm]

Again... Moghedien cannot possibly know Rahvin's strength for an absolute certainty, unless she has fought him before (which I doubt she has). It's pretty much the exact same argument you come with for Rahvin not being able to match Lanfear.

 

Regardless, I didn't truly mean the insult; I was being flippant. I don't like Moghedien.

 

In an Age where male and female channelers lived together there is more reason for some degree of knowledge of where people stand.

 

That being said you are right, there is still the potential of hubris in play--as i stated to begin with.

 

The issue is that im more inclined to believed Moghedian than Sammael. Moghedian was referring to a third party whm she clearly dismisssed, yet she specifically stated Rahvin. Rahvin's comments about Lanfear seem much more self-serving.

It is also more dangerous. If Rahvin is wrong and acts on it, he's toast. If Moghedien is wrong and acts on it, Nynaeve is. There's a clear difference.

 

Strength is not nearly as important as it is to modern-day Aes Sedai, but saying that it "means nothing" is ludicrous. Of course it means something. In the Age of Legends, everything is about serving -- it is the only way to real status and power. The greater your strength in the One Power, the better you can serve, assuming all other things are equal. Strength in the One Power might not mean as much as political acumen, or medical skills, or philosophical blabbering, but it is hardly of no consequence.

 

I would challenge you on that. What evidence do you have to sustain it is of consequence--in specific reference to those points--Ishamael's philosophical brilliance, Semirhage's medical brilliance, Graendal's psychological brilliance, Lews Therin/Be'lal/Demandred's poltical and military briiliance.

 

Nothing in their roles or how they gained them required strength. So yes, please provide your basis for claiming strength mattered to these roles.

It's simply logical. And let me point out something first: Military brilliance likely has absolutely nothing to do with a third name. Most people didn't even know the word for 'war' prior to the War of the Power; it was only remembered by scholars. I seriously doubt they had much time for honoring people with third names during the War.

 

Strength in the One Power is a tool just as philosophical and political acumen is. It might not mean as much, but I seriously doubt it meant nothing. Why would it? There's no logical reason.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:19:31 AM

Quote

Especially since the more strength in the One Power you have, the longer you have to attain said achievements.

 

Many non-channelers had the third name, and held positions of authority. More than that the difference between an average strength channeler and a strong channeler in the Age of Legends would have been the difference between 650 years and 700 years. I don't think this is an issue.

 

Perhaps not, but as I said, assuming all other things are equal, the greater strength, the better you can serve -- and the more power and fame you can earn.

 

Why so? Most of the roles of those who gained the third name had nothing to do with the Power.

 

Specifically I am asking you to substantiate your idea that great strength helped with service. Why is this the case, and where is your evidence?

 

And what does all things being equal have to do with anything? Do you think these people arm wrestle for authority?

Of course not, but when we have to consider one aspect in and of itself, we have to ignore everything else. We do this by stating, "all other things being equal..."

 

Again, it's simply following the idea to its logical conclusion. The goal -- earning a third name -- is generic enough that almost any tool you possess can help you achieve it.