Who's got dibs?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Birgitte is the only character in the series who we can be absolutely certain is tied to the Wheel, destined to return to T'a'R while awaiting rebirth.

 

So, suppose she dies in a fairly ordinary fashion -

 

Who gets first crack at her soul?  The Wheel, or the DO?  The Wheel or the Lord of the Grave?

 

My guess is the Wheel.  I think the DO only gets first crack at those to which are attached the black filaments that Rand has seen.

 

What do you think?

[mb]

Rand also seems tied to the wheel; the Heroes address him as Lews Therin.

And we know Gaidal Cain has been spun out (though not yet as who).

 

I think the Dark One would need access to Telaranrhiod in order to use a Hero's soul.

Though even if he does have access, I think he would only resurrect only the souls of them that served him (willingly) when they lived.

 

[Theleos]

I don't think the DO will even get a chance over the Wheel at Birgitte. After all she is bound to the wheel.

 

Interesting thought just came to me. Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

[mb]

Interesting thought just came to me. Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

There might be a chance that a number of them were Heroes before they turned to the Dark side.

 

From discussions Birgitte had with Nynaeve & Elayne in Telaranrhiod, I take Heroes are only spun out for only the Light side; never for the Dark side.

It seems certain to me that the 13 Forsaken were granted immortality.  Either that or they were like preserved during their captivity; I see no other possibility.

 

[Mr Ares]

Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

No, He just chooses new followers each turning.

[Midean]

I am a little confused about Birgette and her being born again via the turning of the wheel etc.

 

Is she not tied to the Horn of Valere?

She was called forth by the Horn at Falme, but now she is living again, what will happen to her when Mat blows the Horn of Valere at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

<----Confused.

[Krazikarl]

Interesting thought just came to me. Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

There might be a chance that a number of them were Heroes before they turned to the Dark side.

 

From discussions Birgitte had with Nynaeve & Elayne in Telaranrhiod, I take Heroes are only spun out for only the Light side; never for the Dark side.

It seems certain to me that the 13 Forsaken were granted immortality.  Either that or they were like preserved during their captivity; I see no other possibility.

 

 

This is a bit confusing for me.  From what Ishamael has claimed, the Dragon sometimes turns to the Shadow.  This possibility seems to be the entire motivation for giving the orders he does (ie dont kill Rand).  Now Ishamael is more than a little nutty, so maybe that should be taken with a grain of salt.  But, the DO seems to be going along with this strategy also and the DO should know whats up.  So that indicates that the Dragon can sometimes be a bad guy.

 

Yet it seems that the Dragon is bound to the Horn.  That would seem to contradict the theory that only pure good guys can be bound.

 

Then again, maybe LTT was the first Dragon to be bound to the Horn (since we know that people are periodically added).

 

Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

No, He just chooses new followers each turning.

 

Ishamael certainly seems to think that he has fought for the DO many times in the past.  But then again he is pretty insane when he says this and maybe he was actually thinking that he was the DO at that point and was speaking as if he were the DO instead of just a Forsaken.

[Chang]

I am a little confused about Birgette and her being born again via the turning of the wheel etc.

 

Is she not tied to the Horn of Valere?

She was called forth by the Horn at Falme, but now she is living again, what will happen to her when Mat blows the Horn of Valere at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

<----Confused.

 

It's my understanding that if a hero that's bound to the Horn is alive, then they are not summoned by the Horn when it's sounded.  Just look at when the Horn was sounded in The Great Hunt.  Rand (aka LTT) wasn't summoned by the Horn, and we know that LTT is bound to the Horn.

 

I hope that makes sense.  I could be wrong too.  But I think I have the gist of it. *shrugs*

[Midean]

I am a little confused about Birgette and her being born again via the turning of the wheel etc.

 

Is she not tied to the Horn of Valere?

She was called forth by the Horn at Falme, but now she is living again, what will happen to her when Mat blows the Horn of Valere at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

<----Confused.

 

It's my understanding that if a hero that's bound to the Horn is alive, then they are not summoned by the Horn when it's sounded.  Just look at when the Horn was sounded in The Great Hunt.  Rand (aka LTT) wasn't summoned by the Horn, and we know that LTT is bound to the Horn.

 

I hope that makes sense.  I could be wrong too.  But I think I have the gist of it. *shrugs*

 

Ahh yep that makes Sense to me Chang, i had not thought of the LTT and Rand situation when the horn was sounded, but that makes sense.

[Titan Orion]

I am a little confused about Birgette and her being born again via the turning of the wheel etc.

 

Is she not tied to the Horn of Valere?

She was called forth by the Horn at Falme, but now she is living again, what will happen to her when Mat blows the Horn of Valere at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

<----Confused.

 

It's my understanding that if a hero that's bound to the Horn is alive, then they are not summoned by the Horn when it's sounded.  Just look at when the Horn was sounded in The Great Hunt.  Rand (aka LTT) wasn't summoned by the Horn, and we know that LTT is bound to the Horn.

 

I hope that makes sense.  I could be wrong too.  But I think I have the gist of it. *shrugs*

 

Ahh yep that makes Sense to me Chang, i had not thought of the LTT and Rand situation when the horn was sounded, but that makes sense.

 

This is why the Dark One wants the Dragon on his side. If the Dragon serves him when still alive, he cant be reborn as humanitys champion.

[Silmarien]

About the Forsaken and what Ishy says to LTT, i suppose we have to think about this "fight"  as the eteranl fight between Good and Evil.

I mean, DO is at the same level as the Creator (as our God and The Devil) and during the endless passing of the Ages they fought exactly as happens in our world. Certain there were bad people and good people that followed one or the other part and in a particular Age the bad ones were then The Forsaken as we know them, i mean that the reincarnation count for the Forsaken too exactly as for the Dragon, and i think the only Dragon Reborn is Rand and no other before him after LTT.

The fact that at last is the Dragon that will fight the DO i don't understand (if it's correct my theory that see him more or less at the same level of the Creator), but maybe we can see it as the battle of the Human Beings (represented by Rand) against the Evil (the DO).

 

 

About the Horn, well, that's created me many doubts too.

That's what i think:

 

the Horn was put in the world during the Break of the World after the Age of Legends and never used it anymore right, so its use was already know during those ages, its powers and the heroes bounded to it, but the Heroes were known with different names (as Birgitte that was known as Teadra)and myths.

So the reincarnation count for the Heroes exactly as for the Dragon and the Forsaken and all the people important for the Wheel.

 

 

[Luckers]

Birgitte is the only character in the series who we can be absolutely certain is tied to the Wheel, destined to return to T'a'R while awaiting rebirth.

 

The Wheel. Even in death the Lord of the Grave needs some claim to you to, in effect, claim you.

 

I am a little confused about Birgette and her being born again via the turning of the wheel etc.

 

Is she not tied to the Horn of Valere?

She was called forth by the Horn at Falme, but now she is living again, what will happen to her when Mat blows the Horn of Valere at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

<----Confused.

 

She is not tied to the horn at all, she is tied to the Wheel. The Wheel recycles powerful souls to be spun out again and again at need as a part of its self correcting machenism. The Horn is an artificial construct which taps into this aspect of the Wheel in order to draw forth the heroes.

 

As for what will happen to her when the Horn is blown at Tarmon Gai'don, the answer is the same thing that happened to Rand at Falme. Nothing.

 

This is a bit confusing for me.  From what Ishamael has claimed, the Dragon sometimes turns to the Shadow.  This possibility seems to be the entire motivation for giving the orders he does (ie dont kill Rand).  Now Ishamael is more than a little nutty, so maybe that should be taken with a grain of salt.  But, the DO seems to be going along with this strategy also and the DO should know whats up.  So that indicates that the Dragon can sometimes be a bad guy.

 

Ishamael lied. The dragon has never turned to the Shadow to date--RJ confirmed this. That does not mean that Ishamael dows not seek it. Remember that he is looking at things from a philosophical viwepoint. Even if they lose in this turning if they can turn the Dragon Soul then that places the Dragon Soul within the Dark One's power. End game--i imagine if Rand had turned he would have been swiftly expunged.

 

i suppose we have to think about this "fight"  as the eteranl fight between Good and Evil.

I mean, DO is at the same level as the Creator (as our God and The Devil)

 

Really? I mean the Devil is a fallen angel. It is, in fact, no match for God. It exists by God's love even for its fallen children, and by the free will God gave humans.

 

What makes you think the Dark One and the Creator have anywhere near that sort of relationship? Maybe the Dark One is stronger. Maybe the Creator is a coward.

 

during the endless passing of the Ages they fought exactly as happens in our world. Certain there were bad people and good people that followed one or the other part and in a particular Age the bad ones were then The Forsaken as we know them, i mean that the reincarnation count for the Forsaken too exactly as for the Dragon, and i think the only Dragon Reborn is Rand and no other before him after LTT.

 

What makes you think the Creator cares? Certainly he says he won't involve himself--and Moridin's thoughts about him as an absent gardner that won't care if his plants a trampled fits with that.

[Midean]

Another thought occurred to me, Birgette was not "spun out" by the wheel this time, she was ripped from tel'arahn'riod, what affect will this have on her in regards to the horn.

 

The example of LTT and Rand and the horn being sounded and Rand not being brought back as LTT to fight is difficult to understand because Rand was spun out by the wheel.

Whereas Birgette was not, she was forced by Moghedian into this life, will that change the circumstances when the Horn is sounded at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

I also remember reading that she was in fact "bound" to the Horn as one of its hero's.

I just completely confused myself, but i cant help but feel something will happen to her when mat sounds the Horn at Tarmon'Gaidon.

:P

[Luckers]

Another thought occurred to me, Birgette was not "spun out" by the wheel this time, she was ripped from tel'arahn'riod, what affect will this have on her in regards to the horn.

 

The example of LTT and Rand and the horn being sounded and Rand not being brought back as LTT to fight is difficult to understand because Rand was spun out by the wheel.

Whereas Birgette was not, she was forced by Moghedian into this life, will that change the circumstances when the Horn is sounded at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

No, she is being woven back into the wheel, as shown by the disapearence of her memories and Min's visions.

 

I also remember reading that she was in fact "bound" to the Horn as one of its hero's.

 

She was never bound by the horn. The horn taps into that natural aspect of the wheel which recycles specific souls. Characters do not nessasarily realise this, and attribute it to the horn, but the horn is not that which binds her soul to the wheel. It just uses that binding.

[Silmarien]

Really? I mean the Devil is a fallen angel. It is, in fact, no match for God. It exists by God's love even for its fallen children, and by the free will God gave humans.

 

 

I meant as God and the Devil talking about the fact they are always in fight, of course they're are different because God is "above" the Devil that is a fallen angel.

I can consider them also as Sauron and the Valar, don't know if u have read The Silmarillion, anyway:

the Valar are some sorts of Gods under a big one(sorry Tolkien for this explanation LOL) that's Iluvatar. Then there are the Maia, other some sorts of "Gods" less then the Valar and Sauron is one of them.

Maybe the Creator is like Iluvatar or one of the Valar but the DO i can compare with Sauron easily even because someone human can fight him (Rand).

 

Of course we can't compare exactly to the Bible or various religious, Jordan's sources are many so i can't tell exactly the DO is "our" God or an Egyptian's one or Tolkien's one...

Maybe we can use a mix of them  :D

 

What makes you think the Dark One and the Creator have anywhere near that sort of relationship? Maybe the Dark One is stronger. Maybe the Creator is a coward.

 

Read above  :D

Anyway, maybe you're right about the DO is stronger, who knows, if we compare

again the things to our God and the Devil it seems the Devil is stronger but this is a consideration about good and evil that has nothing to do with the story we talk about. I can say the good will always win, other can say the opposite thing, it depends i think about the religious etc.

I suppose the good will win and so it's stronger but who knows?

The same i can tell about the story!

 

What makes you think the Creator cares? Certainly he says he won't involve himself--and Moridin's thoughts about him as an absent gardner that won't care if his plants a trampled fits with that.

 

Nothing, i didn't say the Creator cares, maybe he will never appear!

I was talking about the Wheel and the reincarnation as written on the book putting my hypothesis about WHO can be reincarnated, nothing else.

 

I didn't read anything about Moridin yet sorry, so i can't tell  ;)

[Luckers]

I meant as God and the Devil talking about the fact they are always in fight, of course they're are different because God is "above" the Devil that is a fallen angel.

I can consider them also as Sauron and the Valar, don't know if u have read The Silmarillion, anyway:

the Valar are some sorts of Gods under a big one(sorry Tolkien for this explanation LOL) that's Iluvatar. Then there are the Maia, other some sorts of "Gods" less then the Valar and Sauron is one of them.

Maybe the Creator is like Iluvatar or one of the Valar but the DO i can compare with Sauron easily even because someone human can fight him (Rand).

 

Of course we can't compare exactly to the Bible or various religious, Jordan's sources are many so i can't tell exactly the DO is "our" God or an Egyptian's one or Tolkien's one...

Maybe we can use a mix of them 

 

I have read the Similarion, yes--my point was that in the specifics none of these can be taken as an ideal under which we can understand the Creator/Dark One relationship. These are seperate realities.

 

The only basis we have is to analyse the texts themselves. I've done something of that form--i don't know if you care but its in my 'The Nature of the Creator' thread. found here.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,34389.0.html

 

 

[Midean]

Another thought occurred to me, Birgette was not "spun out" by the wheel this time, she was ripped from tel'arahn'riod, what affect will this have on her in regards to the horn.

 

The example of LTT and Rand and the horn being sounded and Rand not being brought back as LTT to fight is difficult to understand because Rand was spun out by the wheel.

Whereas Birgette was not, she was forced by Moghedian into this life, will that change the circumstances when the Horn is sounded at Tarmon'Gaidon?

 

No, she is being woven back into the wheel, as shown by the disapearence of her memories and Min's visions.

 

I also remember reading that she was in fact "bound" to the Horn as one of its hero's.

 

She was never bound by the horn. The horn taps into that natural aspect of the wheel which recycles specific souls. Characters do not nessasarily realise this, and attribute it to the horn, but the horn is not that which binds her soul to the wheel. It just uses that binding.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Luckers, it makes more sense to me now.  8)

[Mr Ares]

Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

No, He just chooses new followers each turning.

Ishamael certainly seems to think that he has fought for the DO many times in the past.

A lying liar who lies, and insane to boot.

[Silmarien]

 

I have read the Similarion, yes--my point was that in the specifics none of these can be taken as an ideal under which we can understand the Creator/Dark One relationship. These are seperate realities.

 

Well, of course there can't be an ideal, that's what i said a mix LOL

 

Thanks for the link, i'm going to read it  ;)

 

[mb]

Interesting thought just came to me. Do you think that the Forsaken are bound to the wheel and spun out for the DO?

There might be a chance that a number of them were Heroes before they turned to the Dark side.

 

From discussions Birgitte had with Nynaeve & Elayne in Telaranrhiod, I take Heroes are only spun out for only the Light side; never for the Dark side.

It seems certain to me that the 13 Forsaken were granted immortality.  Either that or they were like preserved during their captivity; I see no other possibility.

This is a bit confusing for me.  From what Ishamael has claimed, the Dragon sometimes turns to the Shadow.  This possibility seems to be the entire motivation for giving the orders he does (ie dont kill Rand).  Now Ishamael is more than a little nutty, so maybe that should be taken with a grain of salt.  But, the DO seems to be going along with this strategy also and the DO should know whats up.  So that indicates that the Dragon can sometimes be a bad guy.

No one I take is immediately a Darkfriend when the person is born; becoming a Darkfriend I take is the person's decision, never the Pattern's doing.

Edit: That also applies to Heroes (and taveren).

 

[Thanatos]

I would imagine if Birgitte died, The DO would have first crack at her.  Moghedien ripped her from the wheel, she is no longer attached to the wheel, so if she were to die, I would think that she can't be spun out again.  Therefore, the DO has his paws on her soul.

[fikkie77]

Moghedien didn't rip Birgitte from the Wheel, she ripped her from TAR!

[Mr Ares]

I would imagine if Birgitte died, The DO would have first crack at her. Moghedien ripped her from the wheel, she is no longer attached to the wheel, so if she were to die, I would think that she can't be spun out again. Therefore, the DO has his paws on her soul.

Impressive. Wrong on all counts. Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel.

[Thanatos]

I would imagine if Birgitte died, The DO would have first crack at her. Moghedien ripped her from the wheel, she is no longer attached to the wheel, so if she were to die, I would think that she can't be spun out again. Therefore, the DO has his paws on her soul.

Impressive. Wrong on all counts. Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel.

 

So I may be wrong, but the way I interpretted her getting ripped out from TAR is like this.  The Wheel spins the heroes out every so often, born as infants to grow up, with no recollection of there previous life.  Birgitte gets ripped out from TAR, and is the same hero she was that came when the Horn was blown.  If all the dead heroes are linked to TAR while they wait to be spun out, wouldn't being ripped from TAR while waiting cause some sort of rift in the Wheels control over her soul?  Unless of course, she is an aberration to the rule that all heroes must wait to be spun out.

[Mr Ares]

We know she is still connected because Min has a Viewing of her future. Many lives, with Gaidal Cain. If she had died then and there, after being pulled out, she might have been lost, but she was reconnected, reattached as a Hero.