LTT Balefired himself, right?

[deviant728]

I have always been confused about the prologue to tEotW. I am fairly sure that LTT balefired himself and thus created Dragonmount. If that is the case, and I did read it correctly, wouldn't that mean that his soul couldn't be reborn?

[Majsju]

He did not balefire himself, he drew too much of the power. Basically, a Saidin OD.

[Barmacral]

Balefire doesn't stop a soul from being reborn eventually, it merely stops the DO from snagging the soul for his own purposes.

 

And if LTT had balefired himself Dragonmount would not exist, since with the amount of white light indicated he'd have balefired himself so far back that he may never have existed when the Bore was drilled.

[mb]

This was discussed in past threads.

 

Balefire something else besides ground, the ground does not directly change.

Balefire someone who changed the ground, the ground returns to what it was before (if the change occurred in the balefire's time and if the someone was the only one to change it).

Even if Lews Therin could balefire himself, the ground would not have been changed.

 

Lews Therin's death was likely from overdrawing from the One Power.  Or if not that, from suffocation or from burning (he formed the volcano around himself).

 

[zanotam]

That actually brings up something about overdrawing the power. I mean, we know that a decent angreal or sa'angreal can bring the raw power of a channeler (not necessarily their skill with specific powers, weaves, or other things) to a level above taht of even the most powerful unaided, but if someone like LTT purposefully drew in too much, how much could he draw? I mean, obviously making a mountain and tearing apart the world isn't easy, but enough people could presumably do it, even if they didn't have access to many angreal or sa'angreal (since msot of the stuff that happened was probably pretty fast, like within a year most of the damage would have been done), and I remember reading about how an insane Aes Sedai killed something like 10,000 Dai'Shain Aiel without going to too much trouble, but we don't know how powerful he was. Basically, what I'm wondering is how overdrawing the power works.

[Kaznen]

AoL AS also knew how to do a lot more with the same amount of Power then the AS after the breaking.

[Shard]

AoL AS also knew how to do a lot more with the same amount of Power then the AS after the breaking.

 

Yeah but the 3rd ager AS got some over the Aoler's, even Moggy though healing Severing was impossible.

[Gentled Ben]

That actually brings up something about overdrawing the power. I mean, we know that a decent angreal or sa'angreal can bring the raw power of a channeler (not necessarily their skill with specific powers, weaves, or other things) to a level above taht of even the most powerful unaided, but if someone like LTT purposefully drew in too much, how much could he draw? I mean, obviously making a mountain and tearing apart the world isn't easy, but enough people could presumably do it, even if they didn't have access to many angreal or sa'angreal (since msot of the stuff that happened was probably pretty fast, like within a year most of the damage would have been done), and I remember reading about how an insane Aes Sedai killed something like 10,000 Dai'Shain Aiel without going to too much trouble, but we don't know how powerful he was. Basically, what I'm wondering is how overdrawing the power works.

Well, we saw Aginor draw too much unaided, and it did not create a giant volcano. I think it's assumed that the Queen of Manetheren (dont' recall her name offhand) had a sa'angreal when she slew the dreadlords and destroyed her capitol, and I think it's a safe bet that LTT had a sa'angreal when he killed himself. From his conversation with Ishamael, it seems that he is newly arrived home from the strike on Shayol Ghul, and I would assume that he and the Hundred Companions would have had angreal and sa'angreal with them for such a mission. I don't think you can draw enough to level a city unaided, but I could be wrong. The man (Jaric Mondoran) who killed the 10,000 Aiel also turned a major city into a sheet of glass after eh finished with the Aiel, and that would indicate at least an angreal, as we don't see anyone in the books strong enough to burn a metropolis to glass unaided.

[Paradox]

But you aren't suppose to be able to draw to much of the power when using a Angreal, right? Unless LTT and Eldrene both used faulty ones like Callendor though...

 

[42Bonzo88]

    If I remember correctly Lews Therin with or without aid was the strongest channeler of the Age of Legends. It's not documented anywhere exactly what his strength was. Considering just what we have seen Rand do aided and unaided, he is extremely powerful. I think if Rand chose to do the same thing, and bring a mountain up over himself that it would be close if not bigger than Lews.

[Gentled Ben]

They might have buffers, but I don't see any other explanation.

 

I don't remember any indication that Rand is strong enough to turn a major city, say Ebou Dar, into a sheet of glass in one blow without an angreal or sa'angreal. With Callandor, sure, but with just a good, hearty breakfast? No. Look at how big Dragonmount is. Then look at Aginor, the one time we know that we see someone draw too much power unaided--not even a small hill is left in his wake. LTT/Rand is not like 10,000 times stronger than Aginor. <_<

[Mcpatrick]

LTT was as powerful as a man can be. LTT deliberately drew as much of the power as he could until the backlash(or whatever you want to call it, killed him).

 

Ellisande(or whatever her name was) was a very, very powerful woman, given that the Amyrlin Seat (Tetsuan) at the time was jealous enough over her strength in the One Power, to betray a country to the trollocs.

 

Aginor drew too much of the power, but he didn't try to draw that much more of the power than he could hold. Rand is still considerably stronger than Aginor, and therefore was able to use the power of the EotW, while Aginor killed himself. Besides, Rand was trying to wrestle away the OP from Aginor at the time, so there wasn't much of a backlash, because Rand took the power into himself.

 

I think that if you try hard enough (ie, exert your mental power), you can draw however much of the OP that you want, even as much as the Choeden Kal. BUT, as you go over your safe limit, at any time, there is the possibily that the power you hold will run wild, either killing you, burning you out, or blasting everything around to smithereens.

 

A flawed angreal, extends your upper safe limit, while a properly made one, extends the upper safe limit, and stops you from drawing anymore. That said, it is quite likely that many of the male Aes Sedai had powerful angreal/saangreal.

 

[Orange Fescue]

They might have buffers, but I don't see any other explanation.

 

I don't remember any indication that Rand is strong enough to turn a major city, say Ebou Dar, into a sheet of glass in one blow without an angreal or sa'angreal. With Callandor, sure, but with just a good, hearty breakfast? No. Look at how big Dragonmount is. Then look at Aginor, the one time we know that we see someone draw too much power unaided--not even a small hill is left in his wake. LTT/Rand is not like 10,000 times stronger than Aginor. <_<

There's no reason Aginor's Power OD would have created a hill. Remember, LTT's death didn't produced the Dragonmount by piling up a bunch of dirt. Technically, all LTT's death produced was a hole in the ground deep enough to reach magma.

[Luckers]

Well, we saw Aginor draw too much unaided, and it did not create a giant volcano. I think it's assumed that the Queen of Manetheren (dont' recall her name offhand) had a sa'angreal when she slew the dreadlords and destroyed her capitol, and I think it's a safe bet that LTT had a sa'angreal when he killed himself. From his conversation with Ishamael, it seems that he is newly arrived home from the strike on Shayol Ghul, and I would assume that he and the Hundred Companions would have had angreal and sa'angreal with them for such a mission. I don't think you can draw enough to level a city unaided, but I could be wrong. The man (Jaric Mondoran) who killed the 10,000 Aiel also turned a major city into a sheet of glass after eh finished with the Aiel, and that would indicate at least an angreal, as we don't see anyone in the books strong enough to burn a metropolis to glass unaided.

 

I don't think it's safe to assume any of that. For one, as has been stated, sa'angreal have buffers. No, this comes down to your perception about people being only able to draw so much--even when it is too much. Aginor drew too much--it's true. But the difference between him and the others listed is he wasn't trying to. He was trying to take control of the Eye from Rand--for the purpose of securing it for himself. Greed motivated him, and yes he pushed too far, but it wouldn't have been massively too far. Ellisande and Lews Therin both had nothing left to lose. Their over-drawing was intentional. Consider the wording...

 

"He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all."

 

Note the progression. He draws too much, and then forces himself to draw more. There is a destinction there between that and what Aginor would have done by accident. And the statement about Elissande match--she drew too much in grief, and did so purposefully to get her revenge. She too must have strained.

 

Indeed, its highly unlikely Ellisande had a sa'angreal. the tower had very few, and we know that the Amyrlin actively betrayed Ellisande out of jealousy--why would she have betrayed Ellisande AND given her an sa'angreal. Moreover if Ellisande had a sa'angreal why didn't she use it beforehand. Even were it not as strong as the likes of Callandor, an Aes Sedai of Ellisande's strength wielding a sa'angreal would have made a massive difference in battle. Would likely have changed that flow of events.

 

The one exception is Jaric Mondaren. Not only did he destroy Tzora, he survived doing so to go on to attack Paaren Disen. Now, perhaps some great and specific knowledge could do that, but I doubt it. I'd say it's very likely he had a sa'angreal.

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Okay, I guess my issue with it is that Aginor was killed with much less, so it would seem to follow that the others would be killed before they could unleash the kind of devastation that they did, but if the sa'angreal are buffered to prevent that, then I'm obviously wrong, and your point about Mantetheren makes sense. I still don't see why both channelers didn't cease to exist before they could draw that much, or sever themselves, or what have you, but it looks like they did. Maybe it's like jumping off a building--falling from a certain height will kill me, but so will jumping from a greater height, which will also provide more splatter.  :-\

[a great fantasy fan]

That would make sense. Jumping this far i can do. If I jump this far I will paralyze myself (burn out). And if I jump this far, I will die. And If I jump so far I fall as fast as is possible, I will die with a big big mess.

 

Not very good imagery, but effective in describing it

[Luckers]

Okay, I guess my issue with it is that Aginor was killed with much less, so it would seem to follow that the others would be killed before they could unleash the kind of devastation that they did, but if the sa'angreal are buffered to prevent that, then I'm obviously wrong, and your point about Mantetheren makes sense. I still don't see why both channelers didn't cease to exist before they could draw that much, or sever themselves, or what have you, but it looks like they did. Maybe it's like jumping off a building--falling from a certain height will kill me, but so will jumping from a greater height, which will also provide more splatter.  :-\

 

The one power's effect on people is described almost in the terms of a drug. Addiction, withdrawal, overdose. And the thing with drugs are that overdoses's can vary in their strength without being any less deadly.

[Thor]

Aginor's OD is not comparable to LTT's.  At the eye, aginor's body was barely even alive as such, and we know that channelers use body strength for channeling.  So he couldn't have been drawing much at that time.

 

LTT didn't balefire himself.  I thought it would be quite obvious given how dragonmount is always described as a volcano.  He drew within the core of the earth and dragged up an absolutely huge jet of magma/lava.

[mb]

we know that channelers use body strength for channeling

Where is that said?  Not in the books.

 

[Thor]

everywhere, rand collapsing at the battle of cairhien for example.  as needing to draw on their warders' strength for example.