Hollywood 1940's Mafia! Game Over!

[Naeann]

That's a joke.  Why would Wes and I do that when in the event of a random lynch, WE COULD POSSIBLY DIE?!?!?!

 

Wes, Nae, and CUBA:  these 3 refused to play the proper town play.  And they were online to do it.  And they even posted.  I call shenanigans on them.

 

I'll probably be dead tonight, so that Wes can shut me up.

 

CUBA, you are not making sense.  Of course mnwhiterose's move is working - she claimed Finder!  You don't lynch a potential Finder!!!  This is normal mafia!  How on Earth are people not seeing this?  I'm shocked.  The only possible explanation is that they are mafia.

 

 

 

 

Are you serious?  You ALL are playing like Mynd.  He should be proud.  You just pulled his "everyone against me is scum" move.  Really?  Me, Cub, and Dpr are all scum clearly and openly against you?  You play better than this Verb.  I'm disappointed.  I said I don't buy MN's finder crap and shoot me if I'm wrong but Dpr made SOME sense there.  It's too damn fishy that she claimed in the middle of NO conflict a few hours before deadline when she had a mafia all along... in a post that, like Dpr suggested, sounded prompted.

 

Add that to your blind and sudden devotion to her word.  I've said before, in this game, no ones word is 100 percent golden... even an uncontested finder.. and I still find something off about this whole thing.

 

The rat I smell could be anything.  When I find the source I'll let you know.

 

 

 

[DPR]

 

I'll make a suggestion that I hope everybody can live with:

 

Play by the evidence. It's the only way to be sure. The amount of metagaming going on is astounding. The WIFOMing is twice as astounding. None of it actually helps, even the part I contributed.

 

So step back and look at the hard evidence. Read all of the posts and see where you think players tried to sway opinion. See where they tried to tell you what to think. See where they tried to tell you who to vote for.

 

Then make a decision, and tomorrow, vote for the person that you think is most likely to be mafia. Then stick to your guns and don't be talked around to a different choice.

 

Everybody who has played this game for any amount of time knows that this is how innocents win.

 

How they lose is by changin their minds and letting people talk them out of what they knew was going on.

 

Play this way, and you will always win.

[CUBAREY]

A few observations.

 

In a normal game people will vote for the candidate that the "Finder" says is guilty. However, in a normal game the Finder does not wait until she has five votes against her and a sixth person has already committed himself to vote to lynch her if no one else does. In a normal game the Finder does not wait until less then eight hours before the deadline before revealing.

 

Verbal responded to Mn's "Finding" within 6 minutes of her post. Are we supposed to believe that that was coincedence?

 

Verbal declares that anyone who did not vote for DPR (including DPR) must be mafia.

 

I do not trust anybody, that does not mean I view all players the same way. Verbal has been acting scummy all game long. MN's actions can only be seen as totally inept or scummy. She claims any mistakes she has made are because she is a Newbie, and has repeated this several times. In a previous game, she did not hide behind her being a newbie to explain her "mistakes".

 

Wes could be guilty, but heck except for him playing like Mynd Jr. nothing he has said stands out as scumish.

 

MN sorry, coming into today I was not confident that you were Mafia but would have voted for you to clinch a lynch. Yor last minute reveal made you look incredibly scummy or incredibly desperate and thus I was unwilling to support you. If you are the Finder view Verbal tonight as you indicated earlier that you would or alternatively view me. Everything that has gone on tells me Verbal is scummy so confirm this or confirm that I (as one of Verbal's main detractors) am innocent. If you find Verbal guilty then I could have been right about him and DPR playing Kevim's gambit. If I am innocent then you have found someone you know is on the side of the Town (of course if you find me guilty, Verbal will be quite glad to start a bandwagon to lynch me, so either way the Town would be helped).

 

 

 

 

[peacesells]

Cubarey...I've played games on 5 different sites.  On each it is very common for the Finder to ONLY reveal when 1 vote away from being lynched.  In fact, that is the only time you should reveal early in the game.  You thinking this is unusual is very suspect to me.

 

Also...worrying about Verbal posting 6 minutes after MN does is silly.  Verbal had been posting all day long and was obviously monitoring the thread.  Are you saying we should all play a little game of not posting for a certain amount of time to avoid looking scummy?  I don't think so.

 

Also, you were unwilling to drop the hammer on DPR yet very willing to do so on MN even when you thought she was town the first day?  Dropping the hammer on DPR would have given us a huge boat load of information.  Now we have nothing at all.  THAT MY FRIEND IS VERY SCUMMY.  You were on, had the chance to hammer and purposely chose not to.  Instead we get an innocent town random lynched and that is your fault in my eyes.  We will be doing this all over again tommorrow and instead of having solid info we now go back to the WIFOM and OMGUS arguements we had today.

 

3 peoples actions have come across as scummy to me so far.

 

Cub

DPR

Nean

[Naeann]

1. Not that hard to spell my name correctly?

 

2. I said why I thought Verbal was suspicious for claiming the 3 people not following happily along with a very fishy reveal were mafia.  Then other people, (peace) come along and seemingly random like... says that the three he finds suspicious are, *gasp* the exact same three.  I'm suspicious because I don't believe MN.  Did you not read any of my earlier posts?  Things are not always what they seem to be and no one, NO ONE, is ever 100 percent confirmed anything in this game.  I've had a finder call me guilty when I was 100 percent innocent... because that finder had been turned early in the game.

I've played only on two sites but have played for two years now.  It is very common for the finder to reveal when THEY GET A MAFIA.  Not to piddle around til they are 1 shot and a few hours from a lynch.

 

 

 

Dpr and Cub have made very good points.  I may be being mislead here and Dpr may be mafia.. but Mn is still who pinged my radar even after the panic reveal.  Plus, as it was said, that reveal looked way the heck too scripted.

 

Go ahead and view me if you don't believe me.  When Mn claims she has and says I'm mafia maybe you will listen when I say reveals are not always 100 percent proof when the results prove otherwise.

 

I've been played by a "revealed finder" so pardon me if I don't take it as gospel from the creator himself.

 

 

[peacesells]

and Neaenn...if Wes flipped innocent after a lynch then MN would be lynched next.  In other words we'd have actual information that MN is a liar.  Now with your refusal to lynch we have no information at all.  That's the point. 

 

The fact is...town people are going to get lynched in this game.  We have to maximize the information gained from each lynch.  We have absolutely no information now, on either Wes or MN.  Tommorrow we start all over at square one.  That is the point.  That is what is frustrating about you and Cub refusing to vote.  That is why you are on my scumdar.  The purposefull action to keep the town from getting important information.

 

It really doesn't matter if YOU believe Wes is innocent or if MN is guilty.  Lynching Wes quite possibly would have given us the information for both.  That opportunity has been ruined.

[Naeann]

You can just call me Nae...  :-*

[DPR]

 

 

Anyone else notice that MCS was dead anyway and that the mod did us a favor by rk's him?

 

Is everyone enjoying Peace's calm and logical postings about how CUBA, Nae, and myself ruined your chances of gaining information by not voting for me? Even though Peace did not vote himself until after MN revealed. Thanks for helping the town there. It was a big help, really...

 

And thanks for your "innocent" mistake on pg. 13 where you tried to make it look like I said "against" instead of MN.

 

And thanks also for starting the metagaming on pg.14 by needlessly bringing up Mynd, who is not in this game (Verbal loves you for this, but I'm not sure that it actually helped the town).

 

Thanks for acronyms, thanks for the "provincial" game referrences and thanks for all of your help. I just don't know what we would do without you and your keen observations.  :P

 

[mnwhiterose]

So many people wanting to be viewed.  What's a girl to do?  Well, I have already made my choice on who to view.  We will just have to see if my hunch was right at the end of night phase.

[Dark Justice]

I noticed WES. we got lucky.. (or we have a kind MOD..)

I think there is a lot of people acting scummish here, and Im starting to get paranoid, really. I can see scum in the posts of:

Cuba, peace, mnw, WES, Verbal & Nae...

 

However, after some more thinking, I see Verbal, mnw & Cuba as my prime supects.. Don t ask me why. I dont know. Just a feeling...

 

So I need to do some re-reads, before morning comes...

[peacesells]

 

 

Anyone else notice that MCS was dead anyway and that the mod did us a favor by rk's him?

 

Is everyone enjoying Peace's calm and logical postings about how CUBA, Nae, and myself ruined your chances of gaining information by not voting for me? Even though Peace did not vote himself until after MN revealed. Thanks for helping the town there. It was a big help, really...

 

And thanks for your "innocent" mistake on pg. 13 where you tried to make it look like I said "against" instead of MN.

 

And thanks also for starting the metagaming on pg.14 by needlessly bringing up Mynd, who is not in this game (Verbal loves you for this, but I'm not sure that it actually helped the town).

 

With all those thanks...I guess the only appropriate response is You're Welcome.  ;D

 

Thanks for acronyms, thanks for the "provincial" game referrences and thanks for all of your help. I just don't know what we would do without you and your keen observations.  :P

 

[DPR]

So many people wanting to be viewed.  What's a girl to do?  Well, I have already made my choice on who to view.  We will just have to see if my hunch was right at the end of night phase.

 

Is this another surprise? Will we have to wait until the last minute of day 3 befoe you tell us? Do you think that will give you enough time to put together your plan?

 

Checking anyone but Verbal (or CUBA, I could see that) will just make you look more guilty. And I do hope you aren't going to pull the old routine where you investigate some random player and magically find them innocent.

[Liathiana]

You guys talk so much I don't have time to post this morning (gotta run to work) :P

 

When "tomorrow" comes around again it should be very interesting. Cuba you do make yourself look very scummy :P

 

And I think mn should tell us the results in her first post of the new day :)

[mnwhiterose]

Actually, Wes and Liath, considering that I've already revealed my role, I plan to reveal my findings as soon as Day 3 begins.  Providing I survive the night phase, of course.  ;)

[DPR]

 

 

Oh, something tells me you will pull through just fine. I wish I was as confident for myself.  :P

 

Now, for a sarcasm free post - and an explanation about why I like to use sarcasm. Plain and simple, sarcasm gets people to react. They start to post, and when people start talkingm they start revealing where they are coming form. And the more they talk, the better the picture you get of them.

 

So to that end, I have no problem rattling a age or two and i expect mine to be rattled in return. And it always tellsme a lot about the people I skirmish with.

 

So here is my sarcasm free question for everyone: How do you feel about putting together cases? Pointing out who and what makes you suspicious and comparing notes is our most effective means of agreeing on who we think is mafia. Inevitably, you will see somethgin that I will miss and vice versa. Then, when six or seven people agree on a supicious point, you know you are on to something.

 

I've pointed out things that I felt were suspicious about Verbal, MN, and Peace. Some of you have agreed, someof you haven't. But at least we are looking at evidence and not making decisions based on heat of the moment situations, which almost never pans out well.

 

And I am happy to be the one that is cased. I also understand that some of the points that I have made might have been glossed over, or missed by pages of posts, so I'll give a version of a condensed format that can be copied and pasted whenever a person needs to be reviewed or added to:

 

CASE FILE: Peacesells

 

I have accused Peacesells of

1. Providing inaccurate information on pg.13 that made me look bad and MN look good. Then dropping the point when I called him on it.

2. Criticizing others for not lynching me when he had not voted to lynch until it was me, and then was very active.

3. metagaming on pg. 14 and provoking me, but never offering an real evidence against me.

 

He does not deny it. he treated it rather lightly when I posted about it earlier.

 

SO, what do you think about these things? If everyone says, "Bah, it's nothing" then I'll let it go and focus on the next case. And so on.

 

But if others agree, then we should question this palyer to see what reasons they have for what they did. And so on.

 

Again, I'm happy to be cased first, provided that it is a player other than Verbal, MN, or Peace that starts it. I'll honor the same and not go any further with Peace unless somebody else would like to explore it.

 

This way, we can be productive overnight.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Also, you were unwilling to drop the hammer on DPR yet very willing to do so on MN even when you thought she was town the first day?

 

I viewed Mn's statements as scummy (not as much as Verbal's but still scummy) I did not feel the same about DPR's posts. Moreover, MN's reveal and Verbal's starting the bandwagon just seemed oo contrived-- it had a planned feel about it. And let it make it clear I suspected MN prior to her reveal, I had more reason to doubt her once she named herself the Finder and conveniently named her buddies nemises in this game as mafia.

[peacesells]

 

 

Oh, something tells me you will pull through just fine. I wish I was as confident for myself.  :P

 

Now, for a sarcasm free post - and an explanation about why I like to use sarcasm. Plain and simple, sarcasm gets people to react. They start to post, and when people start talkingm they start revealing where they are coming form. And the more they talk, the better the picture you get of them.

 

So to that end, I have no problem rattling a age or two and i expect mine to be rattled in return. And it always tellsme a lot about the people I skirmish with.

 

So here is my sarcasm free question for everyone: How do you feel about putting together cases? Pointing out who and what makes you suspicious and comparing notes is our most effective means of agreeing on who we think is mafia. Inevitably, you will see somethgin that I will miss and vice versa. Then, when six or seven people agree on a supicious point, you know you are on to something.

 

I've pointed out things that I felt were suspicious about Verbal, MN, and Peace. Some of you have agreed, someof you haven't. But at least we are looking at evidence and not making decisions based on heat of the moment situations, which almost never pans out well.

 

And I am happy to be the one that is cased. I also understand that some of the points that I have made might have been glossed over, or missed by pages of posts, so I'll give a version of a condensed format that can be copied and pasted whenever a person needs to be reviewed or added to:

 

CASE FILE: Peacesells

 

I have accused Peacesells of

1. Providing inaccurate information on pg.13 that made me look bad and MN look good. Then dropping the point when I called him on it.

2. Criticizing others for not lynching me when he had not voted to lynch until it was me, and then was very active.

3. metagaming on pg. 14 and provoking me, but never offering an real evidence against me.

 

He does not deny it. he treated it rather lightly when I posted about it earlier.

 

SO, what do you think about these things? If everyone says, "Bah, it's nothing" then I'll let it go and focus on the next case. And so on.

 

But if others agree, then we should question this palyer to see what reasons they have for what they did. And so on.

 

Again, I'm happy to be cased first, provided that it is a player other than Verbal, MN, or Peace that starts it. I'll honor the same and not go any further with Peace unless somebody else would like to explore it.

 

This way, we can be productive overnight.

 

1.  It was a mistake on my part and quickly admitted to.  What else am I to do with a mistake?

 

2.  My criticms stand on their merit and are legit.  We could have had good information with a lynch we now have none.  No one who I've called out for this has even thought to address the information part of my critism.  An innocent died with no info given.  Lynching you may have gotten a mafia or town..either way we get good info on you or MN.  You turn up innocent then lying liars always lie and MN gets lynched the next day.  You turn up mafia..score 1 for town and we can have a bit more (not complete) faith in MN's viewings. (Ha..Mins viewings!)

 

3.  Why is it you are the only that can rattle cages but not be called on it.  If you think I am scummy for it..then so are you.  Pot...meet kettle.

 

Here's something funny.  You state you don't mind being cased as long as I'm not the one doing it...yet you case me?  A little hypocritical eh?  DPR...I don't know if you are mafia or not.  I'm still 50/50 on you.  My sole reason for voting you was to gain information.  That info either way you flipped would have been very usefull for town.  Voting patterns, reveals confirmed, reveals false, hammers etc...this all leads to good info.  Random lynches gives no info.  The fact that several of you continue to skirt this truth is very scummy.  It's not like the information wasn't out there beforehand...so ignorance is no excuse.  Once someone is able to provide a decent answer as to why lynching you would be worse than the random lynch..I'll back off.

 

Btw..case me all you want.  I'm very comfortable in the position I've taken.  My points are based in fact.  Several other's here are not.

[Naeann]

Vote DPR and he turns out innocent- look suspicious

Not vote Dpr -look suspicious

Believe MN and shes lying- look suspicous

Don't believe her and shes being honest- look suspicious

 

 

It's a WIFOM and you can accuse people til you are blue in the face and they can protest their innocence til they are blue in the face... fact is its a Wifom and people make honest actions in games that come back to bite them... as you know with the mistake you made on who said what.

 

At any rate and whatever your beliefs in how that affected the game... it did make it more interesting, no?  Dpr and Verbal are carrying this game.  I loathe games where the active people are killed off right away and then the game drags on forever long with people that you wondered why they signed up.  Yeah, Mcs got us no info... but that's because he was incredibly inactive and in essence, was just a body count for the town.

[Blig Blog]

Now, for a sarcasm free post - and [glow=green,2,300]an explanation about why I like to use sarcasm. Plain and simple, sarcasm gets people to react. They start to post, and when people start talkingm they start revealing where they are coming form. And the more they talk, the better the picture you get of them.[/glow]

 

I agree. Be sarcastic on something and people can over react and you can gain something from that.

 

Moving on...I do agree with Peace. We could have gotten much needed information on a lynch with Wes. Yes, CUBA could have clenched it with his final needed vote...but he didn't and he stated his reasons on why he didn't. Is he Mafia for this? I think not. If I had been able to log in on time then I would have voted for Wes to take him down. I still think that he's mafia and am starting believe the gambit theory...that someone suggested earlier, not sure who did though.

 

I'm starting to think that MN is Mafia and was helped along by Verbal and DPR on that reveal...and everything else that is in her posts. You see, here's what I think is going to happen: We're going to take down Wes somewhere down the line and he's going to turn out to be Mafia and Verby and MN are free to go, assumed Finder and Innocent...she's going to be asked to "finder" people and she's going to come out and say "I found blah blah to be innocent" and this is going to keep happening while they (Verbal and MN) lead the innocents by the nose lynching more and more innocents while everyone is dumbfounded. No one is going to realize that they are Mafia untill it is too late.

 

Here's who I think is Mafia: DPR, MN, and Verbal

[peacesells]

Vote DPR and he turns out innocent- look suspicious

Not vote Dpr -look suspicious

Believe MN and shes lying- look suspicous

Don't believe her and shes being honest- look suspicious

 

 

It's a WIFOM and you can accuse people til you are blue in the face and they can protest their innocence til they are blue in the face... fact is its a Wifom and people make honest actions in games that come back to bite them... as you know with the mistake you made on who said what.

 

At any rate and whatever your beliefs in how that affected the game... it did make it more interesting, no?  Dpr and Verbal are carrying this game.  I loathe games where the active people are killed off right away and then the game drags on forever long with people that you wondered why they signed up.  Yeah, Mcs got us no info... but that's because he was incredibly inactive and in essence, was just a body count for the town.

 

It's far from WIFOM.  The situation has nothing to do with whether or not Wes is guilty.  It has to do with analysis.

 

Action:  Lynch innocent Wes  Result:  Lynch scum MN

Action:  Lynch scum Wes  Result:  Give some credance to MN. (Not full faith but some credit until tested further.)

 

It's simple.  It's not a WIFOM situation because we have a claimed finder making the accusation.  Her accusation can be easily tested with a lynch.  WIFOM cannot be easily tested because the costs are too high.  If it is vanilla player accusing vanilla player there is a large likelyhood of them both being town.  If it is a claimed finder accusing another player the likelyhood of 1 of them being scum is much higher..that means the risk of lynching a townee is worth the reward of getting a scum.  1 for 1 is a great trade off for town.

 

To re-iterate my position.  I have no strong feelings on either Wes or MN being scum.  But the situation provided us with a great opportunity to gather information and that is the only reason I voted for Wes.  I will make that vote everytime, every game. 

 

(BTW..you are right, players like Wes are great for the enjoyment factor of the game..but you don't keep possible scum alive for that reason.)

[Naeann]

Well said Blig and a possibility I've considered and one DPR and Verbal are more than capable of.

[DPR]

 

Peace - Here is where you're entire argument falls apart:

 

We could have had good information with a lynch we now have none.

  Lynching you may have gotten a mafia or town..either way we get good info on you or MN.

To re-iterate my position.  I have no strong feelings on either Wes or MN being scum.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but your point in criticizing CUBA for not voting for me was that he gave up an opportunity to gain information. Whether or not I was innocent or mafia didn't matter - it was the info that would help the town.

 

I agree with this - no one can really disagree with sound logic.

 

But you didn't vote for MN when she was close to a lynch, but before she claimed to be finder.  You say you are 50/50 on me. You say that you hold out the possibility that MN could be scum. But the truth is, you have supported her at every turn.

 

Then, while criticizing another player for not voting, after you had a perfectly good opportunity to gain infomration and chose not to take it, you solidify my suspicions by lying.

 

But the situation provided us with a great opportunity to gather information and that is the only reason I voted for Wes.  I will make that vote everytime, every game.

 

But you didn't, did you?

 

 

 

 

 

[DPR]

Supposed to read...

 

Peace - Here is where you're entire argument falls apart:

 

We could have had good information with a lynch we now have none.

  Lynching you may have gotten a mafia or town..either way we get good info on you or MN.

To re-iterate my position.  I have no strong feelings on either Wes or MN being scum.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but your point in criticizing CUBA for not voting for me was that he gave up an opportunity to gain information. Whether or not I was innocent or mafia didn't matter - it was the info that would help the town.

 

I agree with this - no one can really disagree with sound logic.

 

But you didn't vote for MN when she was close to a lynch, but before she claimed to be finder.  You say you are 50/50 on me. You say that you hold out the possibility that MN could be scum. But the truth is, you have supported her at every turn.

 

Then, while criticizing another player for not voting, after you had a perfectly good opportunity to gain infomration and chose not to take it, you solidify my suspicions by lying.

 

But the situation provided us with a great opportunity to gather information and that is the only reason I voted for Wes.  I will make that vote everytime, every game.

 

But you didn't, did you?

 

 

[DPR]

 

Here's my list of suspects and fols that ping my scumdar:

 

Verbal - obviously - and I don't want to ignore the "gambit" remarks, but I do feel like the case I've made against him is petty clear, and I absolutley feel like he is working with MN, so that would be more of a tri-gambit. But you have to decide...

 

MN - False reveal. Period.

 

Peacesells - Just keeps supporting MN even though he says he is not. And keeps pushing the vote against me, even though he says he just wants information. This is sympish to the extreme, imo.

 

CUBA - I feel CUBA has been pretty clear-headed through the whole thing. Even though he introduced the gambit thoery, I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same. I have not seen any summish behavior from him.

 

Nae - She is playing a very careful game, and intentionally not adding fluff to the game. This makes me think that she is town and looking for information. Honestly, a player of her calibre could have spun all kinds of mischief by now if she were mafia.

 

Blig - seems to be checking in sporadically and making judgements based on the skirmishes. I can't blame him fo it (but it is how lurkers win!) and don't get any scummy feelings from him.

 

Hybrid - laying low, but said he had exams or some such? I don't care for inactive players, but I won't jump on someone for RL issues. I don't get scummy feeling from him, but he goes on Lurk Watch.

 

Lia - Same as Hybrid.

 

DJ - Seems to be playing well, making posts that make sense. Doesn't talk too much, or too little. In short, he's my perfect candidate for a ringer. I have no reason to think that he is scummy as all - he's not pinged me once. And that is exactly what scares me.

 

***

 

So there it is - my fan club will be all over it, but they already are so it won't really change things. I'll be off line most of the morning, so if I wake up dead, at least you have my thoughts. heh 

[Verbal32]

Vote DPR and he turns out innocent- look suspicious

Not vote Dpr -look suspicious

Believe MN and shes lying- look suspicous

Don't believe her and shes being honest- look suspicious

 

 

It's a WIFOM

 

Yes, it is.  But that wasn't the point.  The point was in gaining information, which you and CUBA both had a chance to do, and refused to.  I was online both times - either of you could (and should) have placed the hammer on Wes.  Not because you think he's innocent.....not because you're afraid of looking suspicious....and not because of any potential WIFOM.....because that was the proper play to gain information for the town.

 

You're a very good player, Nae.  You know this already.  You also know when to make the proper play.  The fact that you didn't makes me think you are in league with Wes.  Not too far of a leap there for me to make, eh?

 

 

Also, you were unwilling to drop the hammer on DPR yet very willing to do so on MN even when you thought she was town the first day?

 

I viewed Mn's statements as scummy (not as much as Verbal's but still scummy) I did not feel the same about DPR's posts. Moreover, MN's reveal and Verbal's starting the bandwagon just seemed oo contrived-- it had a planned feel about it. And let it make it clear I suspected MN prior to her reveal, I had more reason to doubt her once she named herself the Finder and conveniently named her buddies nemises in this game as mafia.

 

CUBA....you are ignoring the same thing that Nae is.  How was it "planned" when I've been on Wes since the beginning?  And let's forget about the timing of MN's reveal.  Wes will tell you that's the most important part, but he's conveniently forgetting 2 things:

 

1.  she's a newbie

 

2.  if she was in league with me, don't you think I would have made sure she revealed at the best time?

 

That you say you don't feel the same about Wes' posts means that you are either turning a blind eye, or just missing the point.  I'd like to think that a point this big wouldn't float past you this easily, so I'm going with turning a blind eye.  You also had a chance to gain the town information.  You didn't.

 

This point (gaining information with Wes' lynch) is irrefutable.  "What if there is some 3-way Kivam's Gambit going on?", you'll ask.....the answer is simple:  that 'gambit' will fail a thousand times before it's successful.  It's also a little bit exaggerated.  Talya and Kivam fought early on, Kivam was lynched as mafia, and Talya went under the radar.  That's the gist of it.  We all do that sometimes.  We need to get over the gambits and WIFOMs and all the little mafia terms we all throw out and boil it down to 1 simple thing:

 

We had a chance to gain a ton of information on multiple players, and people ignored it.  You saw it, I know you did.