Trollocs at Tear

[luftstark]

 

At KoD (IIRC) some thousand trollocs attacked the state where Rand had been hiding with Cadsuane, Logain, Bashere, Nynaeve, Loial, several AS and AM and a few Bashere's man. That was the attack were Rand uses the death gates and those cool fire-explosion etc... also I believe that the state was somewhere in Tear.

 

The question is.... Who sent those trollocs? I seen to recall Moridin saying something about some "loose trollocs" that were taken from the blight without his order... so... who did it?

[Bob T Dwarf]

My vote goes to Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva, masquerading as Sammael.

 

It takes some careful exploration of the Timeline, but the 100,000 ( not 1,000 ) Shadowspawn were actually dispatched before Rand Cleansed Saidin.  Aginor's fear about a possibly successful Cleansing is what provoked it.  See the Kaffe Klatsch where Cyndane reveals Rand's plan.  Both Aginor and Balthamel panicked over that.  Graendal got a little perturbed too.

 

Best guesses: 

Aginor posed as Sam and ordered the Shadowspwn into the Ways.  After he was killed at the Cleansing, Demandred stepped in and told them where to find Rand.

Balthamel/Halima was Slayer's patron for the bungled assassination attempt on Rand and Min.

Graendal was the forger behind the bungled attempts to find Rand's goodies and the Seal.

 

 

 

[luftstark]

I do remember that the one posing as Sammael had contacted Slayer but you think that this person did the same with the trollocs?

[Kaznen]

If it was Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva then how did he know where Rand was going to go afterwords?  I got the impression it was Cadsuane who decided where they were going to hole up for a while.

 

I've thought it was Paldan Fain.  Because Sammy was consumed by Mashidar the popular theory is Fain could "draw" and Sammy's essence to look like him and get the authority to command shadowspawn, something Taim doesn't have.

[mb]

It could not have been Osangar since he died at the end of Winter's Heart which was late winter of year 1000NE.

Knife of Dreams occurs in spring of year 1000NE.

Going through the Ways takes days; too short of a time for Osangar to have sent them.

 

Fain might be a possibility, yet he wants to kill Rand and for Rand to know it was him; sending the Trollocs would not fit that.

 

Taim would be unlikely since Taim has been questioning where Rand is.

 

The likely candidates would be these:

-A darkfriend male channeler that learned Illusion

-Demandred

 

[Kaznen]

Only a forsaken can command shadowspawn.  Taim may be a dreadlord but he hasn't been elevated to "choosen."  The idea with Fain is because he "became one" with SL he has Sammy's "forsaken authority" over shadowspawn because Sammy's was eaten by Mashadar and became part of SL.

 

Taim can also sense were Rand, Mat, and Perrin are.  And he has tried the up close and personal method several times, and they failed.  Now he is getting desperate and throwing everything he can at Rand.

[mb]

Only a forsaken can command shadowspawn.

Darkfriends seem to also be able.

From Shadow Rising, the trollocs in the Two Rivers were sent by Slayer.

And Fain ordered the Shadowspawn into Shadar Logoth during Eye of the World.

 

[Kaznen]

I thought Ishy ordered the trollocs into SL in tEotW.

 

And Isam/Luc didn't order the trollocs into the TR, he just reported back to his handler that Perrin was in the TR so they sent more trollocs, under his command, but a forsaken had to give him that authority. 

[Emily_Sedai]

I thought Ishy ordered the trollocs into SL in tEotW.

 

And Isam/Luc didn't order the trollocs into the TR, he just reported back to his handler that Perrin was in the TR so they sent more trollocs, under his command, but a forsaken had to give him that authority. 

 

I'd question why the trollocs were chanting 'ISAM' if he was a token leader...  Trollocs and lurks don't seem to have much in the way of respect for just about anything, except for things they fear.  And anyone they fear, they will obey. 

 

Also, which of the Forsaken would have ordered the trollocs to destroy the two rivers?  Theories?   

[Majsju]

Taim may be a dreadlord but he hasn't been elevated to "choosen."

 

Oh really? I would say that we have hints saying something else.

 

Taim can also sense were Rand, Mat, and Perrin are.  And he has tried the up close and personal method several times, and they failed.  Now he is getting desperate and throwing everything he can at Rand.

 

I take it you mean Fain, since Taim has no such ability.

Fain would never send trollocs to kill Rand, we have seen how much importance he puts in being the one who kills Rand. Also, he would never be able to command shadowspawn. Even if he could draw Sammaels "essence", just looking like a forsaken will not help him, the authority comes from the chosen mark. A mark Fain for very obvious reasons will never get.

 

And since when did this become a popular theory?

 

The most likely candidate is Taim, something that there are a number of threads here explaining.

[Cybertrolloc]

Third Ager raised to Forsaken != impossible. How probable it is goes into assumption territory, but Taim is probably the first choice of characters we know.

 

Taim had been bugging Logain about Rand's location. I think Taim probably must be marked to get a shadowspawn force of that size to Tear that fast, although he could have had them ready to go and just needed a location. (Only those marked can command shadowspawn, everyone else needs to bargain/threaten to do so.) Whether Taim was playing headgames with Logain/whomever by extension and so on...

 

It really depends on the purpose of the assault. The fallout is lots of dead shadowspawn that could have been useful later, and possibly forcing Rand's timetable. A channeler sending a non-channeling force would probably expect little chance of that doing much useful, except for delaying whomever's there from doing something else. (We've been over this before, I didn't see much in particular wrong with RAW's theory on the matter, just don't find it convincing enough to put it in the for sure for sure pile.)

 

We know it isn't Arangar. If it was Moridin, well he's the one who brought it up at the Forsaken tea-party... Dem's response seems neutral (not putting much thought into it), he's pretty egotistical so of course he has to weigh in on it. Semi has moved a decently sized Shadowspawn force covertly before, and has a meeting planned with Rand & co. in a few days. Not much else except it's not a Graendal type of operation (though she could be playing out of character :)).

[Kaznen]

Taim may be a dreadlord but he hasn't been elevated to "choosen."

 

Oh really? I would say that we have hints saying something else.

 

If he was raised up like that he would be at the forsaken tea party.  He would need a crash course in the Old Tounge, but he would still be there.  I think he is trying to prove himself but the forsaken just don't see him at their level.

 

I have a feeling AS training in AoL took decades if not at least a century.

 

Taim can also sense were Rand, Mat, and Perrin are.  And he has tried the up close and personal method several times, and they failed.  Now he is getting desperate and throwing everything he can at Rand.

 

I take it you mean Fain, since Taim has no such ability.

Fain would never send trollocs to kill Rand, we have seen how much importance he puts in being the one who kills Rand. Also, he would never be able to command shadowspawn. Even if he could draw Sammaels "essence", just looking like a forsaken will not help him, the authority comes from the chosen mark. A mark Fain for very obvious reasons will never get.

 

Fain wouldn't just need to look like Sammael, your right, but when he was kileed by Mashadar in SL he was aborbed into SL so maybe that is how Fain got the forskaen mark.  And because of all his failed attempts to kill Rand I think he is getting desperate.  He doesn't care if he kill Rand himself anymore, just as long as Rand dies.

 

And since when did this become a popular theory?

 

It was thrown out there soon after KoD was published and had its suporters.  I'm not a big believer in that theory I'm just saying it's a possiblity.

 

The most likely candidate is Taim, something that there are a number of threads here explaining.

 

Then we must agree to disagree.  If it was Taim the trollocs would have been backed up with a few AM "renagades."

[Dunedain Fal]

One more thing puzzled me.  If Rand says that Shadowspawn can't get through gateways, then where did the second group of Trollocs that saved the Stone of Tear from being overrunned in The Shadow Rising?  Remember when Sammael sent Trollocs to the Stone of Tear, someone else (not Lanfear) sent Trollocs to battle Sammael's Trollocs.  I wonder who did it and how he/she did it.

[Dark Justice]

there were two groups coming in. I allways assumed one was Rand`s "defenders".

 

There were at least one group coming from sea, and one group in wagons through the city.

[Majsju]

If he was raised up like that he would be at the forsaken tea party.

 

Why?  Moridin likes to keep secrets.

 

If even Moridin knows about it. I am sure the DO could find it useful to have a wild card noone knew about.

 

I think he is trying to prove himself but the forsaken just don't see him at their level.

 

From the Dark One's point of view, he's probably more effective than most of the surviving Forsaken.

 

Indeed, creating a colony of dreadlords inside the Black Tower is quite an accomplishment.

 

Fain wouldn't just need to look like Sammael, your right, but when he was kileed by Mashadar in SL he was aborbed into SL so maybe that is how Fain got the forskaen mark.

 

Mordeth and Mashadar are not one and the same.  Mordeth worked for centuries to escape Shadar Logoth.  You think he's going back?  For anything?

 

Even if Fain for some weird reason would decide to go back, there is absolutely no way the Chosen Mark could be transfered that way.

 

And because of all his failed attempts to kill Rand I think he is getting desperate.  He doesn't care if he kill Rand himself anymore, just as long as Rand dies.

 

If Fain were rational, that would be so.  But he isn't: not remotely.  Unless you can point us to a quote or thought where he thinks that it would be remotely OK for anyone else to kill Rand al'Thor?

 

I think you underestimate the dedication of psychosis.

 

RJ said something along the lines of Fain being unable to function if he got anymore insane than he already is. He is completely driven by a single purpose - to kill Rand. And it was not that long before the attack that he killed one of the renegade Asha'man just because he wants to be the one who kills Rand. Insane person + Obsession...

 

It was thrown out there soon after KoD was published and had its suporters.

 

Some of us thought he was headed in that direction long before KoD.  He has been far more effective than many of the Forsaken, and all the Dark One cares about is results.

 

RAW, the popular theory here concerns Fain "drawing" on Sammaels essence in SL. I question this as a popular theory, because I can not recall having ever seen it mentioned.

 

If it was Taim the trollocs would have been backed up with a few AM "renagades."

 

Come on.  Even Taim isn't that obvious.

 

And it was a close call. If LTT had not pulled out a bunch of awesome AOL weaves, the bodycount would have been higher than a couple of Shienar soldiers. Taim could simply have miscalculated

[Luckers]

My vote goes to Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva, masquerading as Sammael.

 

It takes some careful exploration of the Timeline, but the 100,000 ( not 1,000 ) Shadowspawn were actually dispatched before Rand Cleansed Saidin.  Aginor's fear about a possibly successful Cleansing is what provoked it.  See the Kaffe Klatsch where Cyndane reveals Rand's plan.  Both Aginor and Balthamel panicked over that.  Graendal got a little perturbed too.

 

That's not actually true. The Shadowspawn were dispathed several days after the Cleansing. Futhermore the Shadowspawn were dispatched too Tear--to Algarin's manor, which Cadsuane came up with as a retreat on the spot.

 

It was not Osan'gar.

 

As for it being Taim--here is the full basis of the theory that it is Taim.

 

Third Age—New Chosen Theory

 

Essentially this theory states that Taim was born a Third Age man, was trained by Ishamael before being sent out to train other darkfriends in preparation for Tarmon Gai'don. It then goes on to suggest that in light of his success he has been raised full Chosen by Shaidar Haren--possibly with or without Moridin's knowledge. I will try to go through this as methodically as possible because it touches on a number of seperate points, so please bear with me as i struggle. Lol.

 

The Origins of Mazrim Taim

 

Ok, ignoring the suggestions that he is Be'lal or Moridin--I'm sure we all know the arguments for and against there--lets assume Taim is who he says he is. According to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years.

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why i set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth i believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. Its not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what i suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tSR), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply, since we are assuming here that he is not a recycled Chosen, significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use to much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there i believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform attrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly thats implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emesaries.

 

Why Would The Dark One Raise Any New Chosen?

 

Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably disatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceble in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annialation was no longer availiable.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So their is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could, but what evidence is there?

 

Why Do People Suggest He Has Been Raised?

 

It began with events in KoD--specifically the attack on the manor in Tear. Someone disguised as Sammale, yet with the Chosen Mark sent one hundred thousand Trollocs against Rand--and clearly against the better thoughts of the Shadow Coffee Club.

 

Now this didn't seem to make any sort of sense. The Forsaken just got back from having an encounter with Rand's channeling cadre. They know the type of power he has about him, and they know he has both the Choedan Kal and Callandor, and would have no reason not to have run and grabbed them the second Trollocs were sensed (even if he didn't, they would have expected that he would).

 

These people one and all know what the Power can achieve in battle. By all rights that action, from any of them, would be the dumbest thing ever. They had to know it wouldn't work, and all it would do is sharpen Rand's attention towards the north--they know this, its why Trolloc activity became so... quiet. They want Rand and all the Light focussed on struggling with each other, not aware of the threat to the north. It makes no sense.

 

Here enters Taim. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

Furthermore, Taim is a man well known for presenting himself with Forsaken characteristics. Where the actual Chosen prefer more stylistic disguises, such as appearing made of fire, or silvery light that hides everything, of that trick of the power that made Slayer's eyes slide away, Taim is much more blunt.

 

And that holds through here. The method of the attack--the point. It makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, but from Taim is makes a lot of sense. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

It matches Taim.

 

So thats it. It is an argument in the absense, but it fits

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's a good argument, Luckers, but it lacks a precipitating factor. 

 

The thing that is confusing is how condensed the timeline becomes.  How many events overlap in WH, CoT, and KoD.

 

In Chapter 13 of WH - Wonderful News the Forsaken have a Kaffe Klatsch.  They already know that Rand plans to Cleanse Saidin from Osan'gar.  They now learn that he plans to do it using the Choeden Kal from Cyndane.  Osan'gar and Aran'gar, fearing that, with the CK Rand might possibly be effective, and fearing even more that the DO may no longer trust them enough to let them live if he is, make their own separate plans to kill Rand first.  Graendal, having nothing to fear from clean Saidin, determines to go after the CK.

 

Aran'gar enlists Slayer and the bungled assasination attempt in Far Madding results.

 

At n early the same time Osan'gar is rounding up a horde of Shadowspawn - his own little creations - and sending them into the Ways to pre-position them for when and where Rand is found.  He then contacts Demandred to let him know this, and prod him into finding Rand.

 

Graendal forges letters and sends DF to ransack, first Bashere's tent, and then Dobraine's rooms when Bashere proves not to have them.

 

Then the Cleansing happens, and Osan'gar is killed.

 

Then Demandred finally locates Rand and tells the Trollocs and Myrrdraal where to go.

[Muad Cheade]

It's a good argument, Luckers, but it lacks a precipitating factor. 

 

The thing that is confusing is how condensed the timeline becomes.  How many events overlap in WH, CoT, and KoD.

 

In Chapter 13 of WH - Wonderful News the Forsaken have a Kaffe Klatsch.  They already know that Rand plans to Cleanse Saidin from Osan'gar.  They now learn that he plans to do it using the Choeden Kal from Cyndane.  Osan'gar and Aran'gar, fearing that, with the CK Rand might possibly be effective, and fearing even more that the DO may no longer trust them enough to let them live if he is, make their own separate plans to kill Rand first.  Graendal, having nothing to fear from clean Saidin, determines to go after the CK.

 

Aran'gar enlists Slayer and the bungled assasination attempt in Far Madding results.

 

At n early the same time Osan'gar is rounding up a horde of Shadowspawn - his own little creations - and sending them into the Ways to pre-position them for when and where Rand is found.  He then contacts Demandred to let him know this, and prod him into finding Rand.

 

Graendal forges letters and sends DF to ransack, first Bashere's tent, and then Dobraine's rooms when Bashere proves not to have them.

 

Then the Cleansing happens, and Osan'gar is killed.

 

Then Demandred finally locates Rand and tells the Trollocs and Myrrdraal where to go.

 

That theory may not be correct but it does make a heck of a lot sense. However, Osan'gar would have had to use Illusion to masquerade as Sammael and I thought there was a passage where he wondered where Sammael was or was that another Forsaken?

 

Taim is either insane or a Darkfriend. He's either technically good or got turned. My two reasons a re: 1). Taim didn't destroy that seal to the Dark One's prison that the farmer gave to him. Instead he gave it to Rand. If her were a Forsaken or a Darkfriend, he would've destroyed it or given it to Ishamael. 2). When Rand spoke of cleansing saidin to him in LoC he said that would be marvelous. Any male who was connected to the Dark One would fear that as in Bob's theory. Also, he urged Rand to hold onto his sanity. Not sure a Darkfriend would say that.

 

If he was later turned and is not insane, he could have told the Forsaken that Rand gave the seal to Bashere which explains why Deira Bashere was nearly killed.

 

That's a was a wild tangent but I think Bob's theory has some validity to it.

[Majsju]

1). Taim didn't destroy that seal to the Dark One's prison that the farmer gave to him. Instead he gave it to Rand. If her were a Forsaken or a Darkfriend, he would've destroyed it or given it to Ishamael.

 

Unless the shadow at this point considered it more important to get Rand to trust Taim, and thus get Taim to where he needed to be. I am quite sure the shadows plan is a wee bit more complex than "break all the seals, and hope for the best".

 

2). When Rand spoke of cleansing saidin to him in LoC he said that would be marvelous. Any male who was connected to the Dark One would fear that as in Bob's theory. Also, he urged Rand to hold onto his sanity. Not sure a Darkfriend would say that.

 

And what was he supposed to say? "Dude, do not worry about the taint, it is not a problem. And go as crazy as you want, I am sure you can get the job done anyway". That would surely not make Rand the slightest suspicious.

And lets not forget that the male forsaken have their own interest in seeing Saidin cleansed. We see this already in TEOTW.

 

If he was later turned and is not insane, he could have told the Forsaken that Rand gave the seal to Bashere which explains why Deira Bashere was nearly killed.

 

Or this was the plan from the beginning when it was decided that the forsaken Taim should give rand the seal: Keep an eye on where Rand puts it, so it can be secured when the time is right.

 

 

[Kaznen]

I have no doupt Taim is a darkfriend, he may or may not have been when he joined Rand but he is now.  I just don't think he is "Chosen."

 

RJ said tbe DO's view of the world is through the forsaken, his opionins of Randland is based from them.  The Forsaken were once AS and they have a very low view of the current channler orders, AS and AM.

 

The Forskaen and LTT refer to AS as "untrained" and "half trained" and the way they talk about the OP it's as a science and not a skill.

 

I believe AS training in AoL took decades to compelete, after all the average lifespan of a channler back then was 600 years, so why rush.  Even if Taim was a brillant pupil under Ishy for six years he wouldn't have even sratched the surface of becoming forsaken like.  And Ishy didn't have complete freedom until less then a year before tEotW.

 

And Shadar Harnan couldn't teach the OP.  And he couldn't make somebody a forsaken just anywhere, they have to go to SG and travel to the Bore and make their oaths there.  And in AoL all the forsaken made their oaths with the help of a sponser.

 

Because of Taim's lack of training and having never been to SG he couldn't be a forsaken.

[Muad Cheade]

1). Taim didn't destroy that seal to the Dark One's prison that the farmer gave to him. Instead he gave it to Rand. If her were a Forsaken or a Darkfriend, he would've destroyed it or given it to Ishamael.

 

Unless the shadow at this point considered it more important to get Rand to trust Taim, and thus get Taim to where he needed to be. I am quite sure the shadows plan is a wee bit more complex than "break all the seals, and hope for the best".

 

2). When Rand spoke of cleansing saidin to him in LoC he said that would be marvelous. Any male who was connected to the Dark One would fear that as in Bob's theory. Also, he urged Rand to hold onto his sanity. Not sure a Darkfriend would say that.

 

And what was he supposed to say? "Dude, do not worry about the taint, it is not a problem. And go as crazy as you want, I am sure you can get the job done anyway". That would surely not make Rand the slightest suspicious.

And lets not forget that the male forsaken have their own interest in seeing Saidin cleansed. We see this already in TEOTW.

 

If he was later turned and is not insane, he could have told the Forsaken that Rand gave the seal to Bashere which explains why Deira Bashere was nearly killed.

 

Or this was the plan from the beginning when it was decided that the forsaken Taim should give rand the seal: Keep an eye on where Rand puts it, so it can be secured when the time is right.

 

 

 

In the Age of Legends, after the Bore, a group of Darkfriends attempted to completely free the Dark One and Lews Therin stopped them. If all the seals were destroed, the Dark One would be completely free and then, Rand was not in any position to stop him. Why wouldn't they want that? Instead of waiting months later to try to get the seals then.

 

As for saidin and the taint, the male Forsaken are fearful that with saidin being cleansed, the Dark One would trust them less because they aren't reliant on his "filter." That's why they were eager to stop Rand.

 

Also, Rand never trusted Taim. He feared and hated him but never trusted him.

[Luckers]

It's a good argument, Luckers, but it lacks a precipitating factor.

 

What do you mean by 'precipitating factor'? As in why the Dark One would have raised Taim--because the theory does address that.

 

Aran'gar enlists Slayer and the bungled assasination attempt in Far Madding results.

 

What makes you think it was Aran'gar?

 

At n early the same time Osan'gar is rounding up a horde of Shadowspawn - his own little creations - and sending them into the Ways to pre-position them for when and where Rand is found.  He then contacts Demandred to let him know this, and prod him into finding Rand.

 

Graendal forges letters and sends DF to ransack, first Bashere's tent, and then Dobraine's rooms when Bashere proves not to have them.

 

Then the Cleansing happens, and Osan'gar is killed.

 

Then Demandred finally locates Rand and tells the Trollocs and Myrrdraal where to go.

 

Firstly, one hundred thousand Trollocs were sent into the Ways from the Blight. No one re-organised pre-positioned shadowspawn coalating the force that attacked Algarin's manor, they were all sent as one--after the Cleansing.

 

Secondly, Demandred sending the shadowspawn has the same problem that any of the original Chosen sending the Shadowspawn--in that its utterly stupid. They known Rand has the Choedan Kal and Callandor, and no reason to think he wouldn't use them. That Rand did not think to is stupid on his part, but Demandred couldn't have expected that stupidity--indeed, as a very very good general Demandred would have planned for exactly that.

 

Thirdly, Graendal did not forge letters sending the darkfriends who were hunting the seals. That was purely Demandreds doing. Graendal states how easy it is to forge the modern script--I doubt its beyond Demandred's doing.

 

In the Age of Legends, after the Bore, a group of Darkfriends attempted to completely free the Dark One and Lews Therin stopped them. If all the seals were destroed, the Dark One would be completely free and then, Rand was not in any position to stop him. Why wouldn't they want that? Instead of waiting months later to try to get the seals then.

 

Thats not true--if the seals were destroyed the Dark One would still be imprisoned, just as he was in the Age of Legends prior to the sealing. The very act of attempting to 'completely free' the Dark One proves this. He was nt completely free, and even if the bore has widened underneath the seal--which is possible, i suppose--i still doubt he would be completely free after the last seal failed.

 

Also, Rand never trusted Taim. He feared and hated him but never trusted him.

 

Are you sure? Rand dislikes him--LTT hates and fears him. But even with Logain upright saying he is a darkfriend Rand ignores him. That may not be lovey-dovey comrades-in-arms trust, but its still trust.

 

Besides, even if Rand didn't trust Taim it doesn't mean the Shadow didn't want him to.

[Muad Cheade]

Thats not true--if the seals were destroyed the Dark One would still be imprisoned, just as he was in the Age of Legends prior to the sealing. The very act of attempting to 'completely free' the Dark One proves this. He was nt completely free, and even if the bore has widened underneath the seal--which is possible, i suppose--i still doubt he would be completely free after the last seal failed.

 

As the seals weaken or are broken, the Dark One's powers grow. In the Age of Legends, there were no seals at the time of the attempt to completely free the Dark One. They were attempting to widen the Bore. That's what Lews Therin made the seals for: to keep the Bore from expanding. Hence, any Darkfriend would attempt to destroy the seals.

 

From the Wikipedia article on the Dark One

There are other ways the Dark One can impact the world, as well. Metaphysically, the Bore is a pathway that allows the Dark One to reach out into the physical world; Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions attempted to seal the Bore to limit the Dark One's power, but over the course of the series his influence extends, and the cuendillar seals on his prison begin to weaken and break. By Lord of Chaos, several seals have broken and the rest are fragile.

 

Are you sure? Rand dislikes him--LTT hates and fears him. But even with Logain upright saying he is a darkfriend Rand ignores him. That may not be lovey-dovey comrades-in-arms trust, but its still trust.

 

Besides, even if Rand didn't trust Taim it doesn't mean the Shadow didn't want him to.

 

In the chapter "The Butcher's Yard in aCoS, Perrin smells hatred and fear directed at Taim from Rand .

 

Rand can't lift his hand against Taim. As Logain said, all of the Asha'man know Taim. Some have never even met Rand. To attack Taim would be to potentially turn the Black Tower against him. Just as Taim can't attack Rand because Rand is stronger than him.

 

"Besides, even if Rand didn't trust Taim it doesn't mean the Shadow didn't want him to.." That's true. However, having a DF that Rand can trust is easier than one he's mistrustful because the one who is not trust is watched more.

[Luckers]

Quote

Thats not true--if the seals were destroyed the Dark One would still be imprisoned, just as he was in the Age of Legends prior to the sealing. The very act of attempting to 'completely free' the Dark One proves this. He was nt completely free, and even if the bore has widened underneath the seal--which is possible, i suppose--i still doubt he would be completely free after the last seal failed.

 

As the seals weaken or are broken, the Dark One's powers grow. In the Age of Legends, there were no seals at the time of the attempt to completely free the Dark One. They were attempting to widen the Bore. That's what Lews Therin made the seals for: to keep the Bore from expanding. Hence, any Darkfriend would attempt to destroy the seals.

 

From the Wikipedia article on the Dark One

Quote

There are other ways the Dark One can impact the world, as well. Metaphysically, the Bore is a pathway that allows the Dark One to reach out into the physical world; Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions attempted to seal the Bore to limit the Dark One's power, but over the course of the series his influence extends, and the cuendillar seals on his prison begin to weaken and break. By Lord of Chaos, several seals have broken and the rest are fragile.

 

None of that speaks to this idea of yours that when the seals are broken the Dark One will be free. Yes the Dark Ones power and influence grows as the seals are weakened--to the extent that they were prior to the sealing of the bore. The Dark One was not free prior to the sealing of the bore.

 

And no, Lews Therin did not make the seals to keep the bore from expanding, he made it to seal the existing opening. The Shadow did try to widen the bore at the very beginning of the war--indeed, that was the cause for the beginning of the war--but it was not, as far as we know, widening on its own.

 

And when the seals fail the bore will still not realease the Dark One fully. He will be back to the same as he was during the War of the Shadow. Now, the Dark One is breaking the seals on his own, it does not seem insane to me that he would give one to Rand in order to win the war against him, since whether its with Rand or not he can still break it. Having darkfriends break the seals early still leaves him facing Rand as an enemy, giving the to Rand potentially removes Rand as an enemy, and doesn't stop the Dark One from breaking them.