Sheriam and her "only 5 people know..." Comment

[Elgee]

Heh? Where did you find that, Braus?

[Gentled Ben]

<snip>

 

We can assume the other 5 she is referring to are Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, herself, and someone else. Everyone assumes the someone else is Siuan but notice how Sheriam never actually says the Amyrlin ordered them not to speak of it. Sheriam says "If an order from the Mistress of Novices carries no weight with you ... perhaps you will obey one from the Amyrlin Seat. You are to speak of this to no one except the Mother or me." Nice wording to make them THINK the Amyrlin had ordered it when in fact she had not. Also note in the preceeding quote Sheriam says "seven people IN THE TOWER" that doesn't mean she doesn't know of other people who know about it. Others who are now outside of the Tower or who were outside when it happened, perhaps the Darkfriend who gave her the order to make sure he wasn't caught or something like that hmmmmm.

 

Now my question is this ... Sheriam is clearly going to some length not to lie. Perhaps she knows Nyn and Egwene are looking for Black Ajah and does not want to get trapped in a lie and give herself away. But just a few chapters (hours in the story) later she tells a lie.

 

Sheriam says to Egwene during her Accepted test "It is not so easily done. It is not a thing done, so far as I know ... since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrdraal. You see? Not easiy done. There are no Dreadlords today." Given her station, her closeness to Siuan, and her earlier comments to Nyn and Egwene about not mentioning the Gray Man to anyone I can't believe that Sheriam doesn't know about the Black Ajah. If she knows about the Black Ajah and what happened in the Tower with Liandrin and her "friends", then she has to know she's lying when she says "There are no Dreadlords today". It could be that she is one of the few who doesn't know (or else refuses to believe) that the Black Ajah exists, but that seems highly doubtful given everything else we know. Add that to what we see happening in later books with Sheriam and I'm leaning towards her being Black Ajah herself.

 

<snip>

I came away from the books with the impression that most Aes Sedai do not believe in the Black Ajah, not a few as you suggest, and there is no indication that Siuan is discussing the Black Ajah with others in the Tower. Indeed, she seems to be taking pains to keep it quiet.

 

I don't think your assertion that Sheriam is avoiding a lie so as not to be trapped by Egwene in her quest to hunt the Black Ajah down is likely, because I don't think that she would have enough respect for Egwene's abilities (she's just a novice, regardless of her potential), nor do I think she has a clue about Egwene's secret mission. It's a secret, after all. Sheriam's words may well mean what they seem; Aes Sedai speak that way out of habit.

 

All that being said, Sheriam may well be Black Ajah, but she is so obvious that I can't help but to think she's a red herring. I would not even be surprised to find that her beatings come from Lelaine, who at least has the personality of a Black sister...

[Braus]

Heh? Where did you find that, Braus?

 

Got no quote on my mind right now. But ive read the series about 3 times, and ive always thought it was that way. Almost everytime the gray men got a knife stabbed into their heart/chest. Easy to look up if im wrong, just go and find some passages with gray men and check. If i dont remember wrong, i think the gray man who fell down the roof with mat also had a dagger through his chest/heart.

 

Its not a fact, i just thought it was a fact. Noone else who had this belief? It would regardless be the best way to make an assasin like that, no traces at all with a dead body.

[Graendals favourite]

That's a good idea. I think if that Grey Man killed himself, then the one found in Sheriam's bed could be a tad more innocent thing. I understand, if she is not Black, Sheriam was going to investigate the first Grey Man. If this was discovered by the Black Ajah, or whoever sent him, it could simply have been a message to stop the investigation, like a final warning that they could reach Sheriam easily enough if she did not. It would probably be better for the Black not to kill such a prominent Aes Sedai, when they wanted no investigations on the Black Ajah in the Tower.

[Mr Ares]

Its not a fact, i just thought it was a fact. Noone else who had this belief? It would regardless be the best way to make an assasin like that, no traces at all with a dead body.

I would regard it as counter-productive. Rather than re-use an assassin, you need a new one every time, whether or not it succeeds or fails. And also, having extra dead bodies lying about is unneccessary. It draws attention.

[Braus]

Well i just feel like i remember most Gray Men ending up with a knife through their chest, whenever they fail. Such as getting hold by the power etc.

Also the shadow doesnt always seem to care that much about their darkfriends/shadowspawn.

 

Regardless, i dont see the use of someone else killing a grayman, since hes soulless afterall right?(once again im not sure :) but im betting he wouldnt be able to say anything if put to the question) This argues against someone actually killing the gray man in the tower, but also against the gray men having a instinct to suicide when something goes wrong.

 

 

But i guess im wrong, since noone else got the same notion as me. Sorry for going off topic.

 

[Mr Ares]

Well i just feel like i remember most Gray Men ending up with a knife through their chest, whenever they fail. Such as getting hold by the power etc.

Perhaps because people keep on killing them?

Also the shadow doesnt always seem to care that much about their darkfriends/shadowspawn.

The shadow in general is not overly bothered about loss of life, but Lanfear doesn't kill people unnecessarily, Sammael doesn't waste the lives of his troops, Shai'tan understands the value of His underlings and doesn't waste those that are difficult to replace (such as the Chosen). If there was a limited supply of Grey Men, then there are certainly some who would take steps to ensure the survival of a valuable resource, and others who wouldn't care much either way. I don't know if any would be so wasteful as to go out of their way to order the deaths of their assassins, regardless of success or failure.

 

Regardless, i dont see the use of someone else killing a grayman, since hes soulless afterall right?

Well, you might kill it so it doesn't kill you. And what else are you going to do with a Soulless?

[Braus]

About killing a souless, i meant killing him to stop the "good" side from interrogating him(like the one who attacked the girls in the tower and was caught in air). I mean whats the use in killing him, if hes soulless.

 

To try and rephrase the thought ive been spamming for 3 posts now, and still havent checked up(so i havent moved forward :P)(i got no books or anything here atm), is that i had a feeling that graymen usually ended up with a knife in their chest when they fail. Their own knife.

[Mr Ares]

To try and rephrase the thought ive been spamming for 3 posts now, and still havent checked up(so i havent moved forward :P)(i got no books or anything here atm), is that i had a feeling that graymen usually ended up with a knife in their chest when they fail. Their own knife.

TDR 15, one is killed by Slayer. TDR 29, one is found without a mark on her. TDR 30, one ends up with his own knife in his chest after a tumble with Mat. TDR 42, Perrin, Moiraine, Faile and Lan kill six Grey Men. TSR 9, Rand kills one. TSR 10, three were killed by the Aiel. TSR 13, a Gray Man tried to kill Mat. TSR 31, Fain kills two. LoC 28, Taim kills one. Only one mention of one ending up with its own knife in it, although I've perhaps missed one. That was after a fight with Mat, the luckiest man in the world, so probably some freak chance. And having no books is not that much of a problem when you have http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/.