Sentient Terangreal?

[Roxinos]

Yep. I did make it up. I originally used Angreal as a catchall term because each of the objects have angreal in their names. Presumably, no matter what their function, "angreal" would be there.

 

Arbitrary? Yes. But it has its purpose.

[Mr Ares]

If nothing else, perhaps zanotam understands your use of it now.

[zanotam]

Um, Angreal can refer to both 'angreal' as in lower level amplifiers of the power and 'generic object that uses the power' and since this thread is currently about defining what an angreal is, and then what a ter'angreal is so as to decide whether things like Nym, Avendesora, gholam, trollocs, and mydraal are, and even among those examples, if some do and don't count. Trollocs and Mydraal were made using the power, since well, I hope you all have the necessary basic biological knowledge to know that you can't crossbreed humans and sheep/eagles/lions/whatevers, so the power was obviously involved, and the Mydraals are just crazy. Also, I was under the impression that the conventional use of angreal meant in relation to non-living things, Nym, Avendesora, etc. are all very much alive.

[Mr Ares]

Um, Angreal can refer to both 'angreal' as in lower level amplifiers of the power and 'generic object that uses the power'

Um, no they can't. The term angreal refers solely to things that amplify the Power, not to any other object of the Power. We don't have an umbrella term from the books, and so are forced to make our own. Which is the problem. Roxinos previously used "angreal", which caused confusion as that was also one of the terms covered by the blanket term, and then used "flizzerbloop", explaining that this was a blanket term covering both, which you failed to understand. Angreal does not cover ter'angreal. Nor does it cover sa'angreal. The term angreal only covers angreal.

[Nightstrike]

I don't think the definitions are laid out enough for us to say whether the Nym or the Gholam could be called living ter'angreal. I think the Nym did things that no ter'angreal has done. The Gholam doesn't work exactly the same way that the Foxhead medallion works.

 

My guess, only a guess, is that the living constructs aren't seen as ter'angreal by "present Age" Randland people. Or even by the AoL people.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

When people want to refer it to it generally, I suggest usage of

 

'Angreal (Yes, with the apostrophe in front of it)

[Serenla]

-the terangreal that shows fears of the person entering (White Tower's 3 arches)

-the terangreal that shows possible futures of the person entering (Rhuidean's 3 arches)

Another example:

-the terangreal that shows history in perspective of the ancestors of the person entering (Glass Columns)

 

I don't think they are sentient, I think they are fancy vitual reality devices.  I think that the one that shows their fears was designed to read a person's thoughts and send them to a place where the thoughts can be real, like the World of Dreams.  I don't think that fears are the only thing it can show.  I think it shows fears because that is what everyone who goes through it expects.  They also say the way back only comes once, but Nynaeve made the aches come back. 

 

I think that the one that shows futures can read a person's experiences and then use that information to show all the outcomes of all the possible choices that person can make.  I know that even today there is software that can take all of whatever variables that are input into account and pose outcomes.  Being able to input everything a person knows via reading their brain waves and whatnot and then showing them every outcome would be so much more efficient. 

 

I think the ancestor one uses genetic memory to show the past.  The "old blood" phenomenom shows that ocasionally memories are genetic.  Also when Rand is trying to disengage from the Choedal Kal, he reaches into the deepest part of himself and out pops an Aiel saying that he could have only heard a couple of times.  And when he did hear them he didn't identify with them.

 

I always thought of a ter'angreal as a non-living tool.  There are things made with the Power that are not ter'angreal, sa'angreal or angreal.  Siuan makes something and makes Nynaeve eat it.  Heartstone.  Rand makes a flower.  And the Power can be used to do things.  Healing.  Egwene changes the physical properties of metals.  Make rain.  So I don't think that using the Power to do things like make a living being, would make that living being a ter'angreal. 

[Luckers]

I always thought of a ter'angreal as a non-living tool.  There are things made with the Power that are not ter'angreal, sa'angreal or angreal.  Siuan makes something and makes Nynaeve eat it.  Heartstone.  Rand makes a flower.  And the Power can be used to do things.  Healing.  Egwene changes the physical properties of metals.  Make rain.  So I don't think that using the Power to do things like make a living being, would make that living being a ter'angreal. 

 

None of those things use the power. A ter'angreal is something created by the power that uses the power in a specific way. Simply being made by the power is not the deciding attribute, it is being made by the power, to use the power, that describes a ter'angreal.

 

And whatever people may have assumed, all that is stated in the books is that a ter'angreal is just that--nothing about that definition precludes it being alive, and the Nym exactly match that definition.

[Nightstrike]

The BWB mentions Nym in one section, and directly after them follows this section:

Other fields of Aes Sedai endeavor included design and construction of angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal.  ... 

"Other fields" seems to imply that it was another field from the just mentioned - the Nym. I don't think we've encountered anyone that has thought of Avendesora, Gholam or Nym as ter'angreal.

 

[Luckers]

We havn't encountered anyone who has thought of them as not being a ter'angreal either, much less someone in a position to know and understand such things.

 

They exactly match the description of a ter'angreal. Maybe not the Gholam, since the True Power is involved in its creation, but the others...

 

 

[Nightstrike]

We havn't encountered anyone who has thought of them as not being a ter'angreal either, much less someone in a position to know and understand such things.

Why would anyone do that?

 

[Kivam]

I always thought of a ter'angreal as a non-living tool.  There are things made with the Power that are not ter'angreal, sa'angreal or angreal.  Siuan makes something and makes Nynaeve eat it.  Heartstone.  Rand makes a flower.  And the Power can be used to do things.  Healing.  Egwene changes the physical properties of metals.  Make rain.  So I don't think that using the Power to do things like make a living being, would make that living being a ter'angreal. 

 

None of those things use the power. A ter'angreal is something created by the power that uses the power in a specific way. Simply being made by the power is not the deciding attribute, it is being made by the power, to use the power, that describes a ter'angreal.

 

And whatever people may have assumed, all that is stated in the books is that a ter'angreal is just that--nothing about that definition precludes it being alive, and the Nym exactly match that definition.

 

Do the Nym, Gholam or Avendsora use the power?

[ROB_88]

i think that calling the Nym Angreal/flizzerbloop is the same as calling humans machines.

 

humans may or may not function the same way as some machines but one would never identify themselves with them.

 

just as flizzerbloops are Power using/Power refining machines and Nym are living creatures who may or may not work the same way as them but they should not be identified as the same as Angreal/flizzerbloop

[Luckers]

We havn't encountered anyone who has thought of them as not being a ter'angreal either, much less someone in a position to know and understand such things.

 

Why would anyone do that?

 

 

Exactly. Now transpose your response to your own comment--"I don't think we've encountered anyone that has thought of Avendesora, Gholam or Nym as ter'angreal. "

 

"Why would anyone do that?"

 

Do the Nym, Gholam or Avendsora use the power?

 

The Nym and Chora Tree's do--as for the Gholam, probably. At the very least we've seen ter'angreal cause this effect, and ter'angreal effects are caused by use of the power. The exact methodology is uncertain.

 

 

 

i think that calling the Nym Angreal/flizzerbloop is the same as calling humans machines.

 

humans may or may not function the same way as some machines but one would never identify themselves with them.

 

just as flizzerbloops are Power using/Power refining machines and Nym are living creatures who may or may not work the same way as them but they should not be identified as the same as Angreal/flizzerbloop

 

Firstly, drop the 'flizzerbloop'. It's just too silly. Call them what they are--ter'angreal.

 

Secondly, the comparison is flawed. Nym and ter'angreal are the same in origin and function. Humans and machines are not.

 

The only basis for this distance between the two is this feeling that ter'angreal have to be objects of some form, but thats not sustained within the texts. The books say only that ter'angreal are made by the power to use the power. Nothing within that speaks of intelliegence or the lack thereof. Nor does it speak of them not being organic, or any of these other suggestions.

 

Ter'angreal are things which were created by the power to use the power for a specific purpose. Nym and Chora Trees are created by the power, and use the power for specific purposes.

 

When there is no destinction between the definition of a word and the reality of a thing, the word applies to describe the thing. And no stated destinction exists. End game.

[Kivam]

 

 

Do the Nym, Gholam or Avendsora use the power?

 

The Nym and Chora Tree's do--as for the Gholam, probably. At the very least we've seen ter'angreal cause this effect, and ter'angreal effects are caused by use of the power. The exact methodology is uncertain.

 

What are you basing this on?  We haven't seen the Nym or Choras using the One Power, or the Gholam. 

 

[Luckers]

The Guide states it. In the case of Chora trees its slightly ambiguos, because it is speaking of things that are 'made with and/or use the one power', stating that the Chora are one such construct. That could mean they were only made with the Power--its why i didn't bring them up to begin with.

 

The Nym on the other hand are directly stated to be able to utilize the One Power for 'the benefit of plants'.

[Kivam]

The Guide states it. In the case of Chora trees its slightly ambiguos, because it is speaking of things that are 'made with and/or use the one power', stating that the Chora are one such construct. That could mean they were only made with the Power--its why i didn't bring them up to begin with.

 

The Nym on the other hand are directly stated to be able to utilize the One Power for 'the benefit of plants'.

 

Ah, the BWB, which I, not being a WoT geek, have never read.  Thanks

[Nightstrike]

We havn't encountered anyone who has thought of them as not being a ter'angreal either, much less someone in a position to know and understand such things.

 

Why would anyone do that?

 

 

Exactly. Now transpose your response to your own comment--"I don't think we've encountered anyone that has thought of Avendesora, Gholam or Nym as ter'angreal. "

 

"Why would anyone do that?"

Because people categorize things by what they are seen as. Not as what they are NOT seen as. We've had people categorizing these creatures in the series, and in the BWB. None of those categories were "ter'angreal". Until we get someone in the books (or those with "inside information") to actually label them "ter'angreal", I will never buy it from anyone else.

 

 

 

 

[Neemo]

when you say the BWB, is that the coffee table encylcopedia? i should read that thing again i suppose, i've only ever read it once when it first came out

[Nightstrike]

Yes, that's right. BWB="Big White Book". I don't think all are white. The US version was, though. I look up things from time to time. I've never read it from cover to cover. Some chapters are more interesting than others.

[Serenla]

None of those things use the power. A ter'angreal is something created by the power that uses the power in a specific way. Simply being made by the power is not the deciding attribute, it is being made by the power, to use the power, that describes a ter'angreal.

 

And whatever people may have assumed, all that is stated in the books is that a ter'angreal is just that--nothing about that definition precludes it being alive, and the Nym exactly match that definition.

There seems to be more to it to me.

 

Ter'angreal, however, were tools made to perform a specific function.  Some had to be activated and energized by the One Power, and could only be used by Aes Sedai.  Others could be used by anyone.

BWB pg 31 The Age of Legends

ter'angreal: Remnants of the Age of Legends that use the one Power.  Unlike angreal and sa'angreal, each ter'angreal was made to do a particular thing.  Some ter'angreal are used by Aes Sedai, but the original purposes are unknown.  Some require channeling, while others may be used by anyone.  ...

The Fires of Heaven glossary

Both descriptions imply that a person uses ter'angreal and that they are made to be used.  The Green Man was made to make things grow and to enjoy making things grow.  Not made so that a person could use him to make things grow. 

The population of people that can channel has decreased.  If someone were to somehow learn how to genetically engineer channelers and used the Power to do so, would this new generation of channelers be ter'angreal?

[ROB_88]

i still don't think the Nym are ter'angreal but whatever

 

a theoretical question for yoy then.

if someone were to use the OP to clone out a bunch of Aes Sedai, would you call those ter'angreal too?

cause that's basically the same thing as creating the Nym with the OP

[zanotam]

The human/machine comparison is really the easiest way to look at something similar. To a chemist or a biologist humans are just REALLY complex machines, there is nothing tangible that we can point to and say "that makes it a human, not a machine", but as a sum of its parts, it becomes something more. If something is created by the one power and uses the one power, does not make it a ter'angreal, Nym were treebrothers, they were regarded as living beings (if you remember when in TSR we see a flashback, the Nym is not looked upon as a machine, it is looked upon as a living thing).

[Shard]

I would say one being made of biological mass and other out of metal would be a good difference.

[zanotam]

I think however that we can all agree that there is no such thing as a sentient Terangreal. There may however be sentient ter'angreal. But the original topic I think is answerable, it's just the question that follows that is not.