V for Vendetta... er... I mean... Verin.

[Genesis_XVI]

Verin is an interesting character who I haven't really paid much attention to while reading and re-reading the series. I haven't seen much discussion about her on various boards either (probably because I'm not looking in the right places), but I think she plays a far more important role than I've given her credit for in the past.

 

As far as character importance goes, I rank her on the third tier: 1st = 3 legs to the tripod (paraphrasing a Fade's words from tDR; Rand, Mat and Pez). 2nd = wonder women, Morridin, Shadar Haran, Moiraine, Thom and Lan. 3rd = Caddy-shack, Sorrilea, other forsaken, Bashere, etc. 4th = characters that serve a distinct and important purpose, but run short of "mover and shaker" status.

 

What I'm getting to (slowly, I apologise) is that Verin is important as a character and player beyond that of a mere plot tool (ie: Alanna and most of the other Aes Sedai serving Rand - while important, there isn't as much evidence to suggest they're as significant as characters).

 

So what I'm asking for is: who do you think Verin really is? Warrior of the light, or black as the ace of spades? What is she up to? Where is she pulling things? Will it help Rand? Have you noticed anything else that could help me (and us all) better understand Jordan's creation? What's is her significance?

 

Hope you can contribute some thoughts.

 

All the best

 

Genesis_XVI

 

 

 

Some points to consider:

 

*Verin admits it had been 70years since she had made her last mistake.

*Verin doesn't give her name when in Far Madding lest they remember her.

*Verin knows much about Corrin (sp? Last known Aes Sedai dreamwalker before Egwene), yet remains illusive about her knowledge regarding this whole area.

*Verin is about to poison Cadsuane, but changes her mind at the last minute when Cadsuane admits she is planning to aid Rand.

*When Verin cathces up to the Horn-Hunting party in tGH, she states Moiraine sent her. Moirane denies this.

[merlinspetrock]

Keep looking there is more that Verin is aware of than those points. I would classify her in second tier. She obviously knows about the wolf king propecy of the Seanchan as she wonders why Perrin hasnt given up the axe for the hammer in FoH (which is from the Seanchan prophecy, something to do with when the wolf king takes up the hammer instead of the axe). I am waiting with baited breath as to the out come of who/what she is. In my mind I want to make her as an Aesedai from the AoL, but that probably isnt possible. She definitley knows more than we have been made privy too. I would have liked to see a little more of her in the entire series. I really hope he has room to fit this into the last book.

 

There are more than 3 people I would bring into 1st tier too. Such as Egwene and Moirane. Even thought the story isnt about them, without them Rand will fail, well at least he will w/o Moirane.

[joeybsmash]

i agree that verin is not given the credit that she deserves. doesn't perrin use his hammer instead of the axe when he saves faile?

[Genesis_XVI]

Perrin does use his hammer to save Faile, but Merlinspetrock was reffering to a quote in tFoH.

 

Your absolutley right Merlinspetrock that there's a lot more to here than the few mere points I've listed.

 

Here are some other:

 

*She places laces of compulsion onto the Aes Sedai captured by Rand at Dumai Wells. This weave is a far more complex (and therefore effective) version of compulsion than that used by girls who come to the tower with it in their repetoir of tricks. She uses it despite the towers laws regarding it. Where did she learn it from. Was it used for anything other than getting them to swear to Rand?

 

*She just disappeared on several occaisons when travelling with the Aes Sedai. Where to? Why?

 

*When meeting up with the embassy to the Dragon from Salidar in Caemlyn, the POV reveals that Verin is of considerable power. Not anywhere near as much as Cadsuane, let alone Eg, El of Ny. But interesting none the less.

 

I don't think she's a surviving Aes Sedai from the AoL though. She might be, but I doubt it. Her compulsion, power and skills are no where near the level you'd expect of someone from the AoL, let alone someone who has managed to stay alive 3000 years. I do however think there is certainly more to her. She sussed Moiraine and Suian. She knows things that even a brown couldn't be expected to recall - almost as if she's lived another life as another person (that's not a theory - just a metaphor in this instance). Somehow she has stumbled upon a source of information re: the Dragon, and she's playing her own game with it.

 

Sicnerely

 

Genesis_XVI

[Guest cwestervelt]

What Verin uses is not true Compulsion as she cannot make anyone do something with it. The subject has to have their own reasons for complying.

 

While it is more complex, it is not something I would consider more effective than what the various girls taught themselves. You forget that Verin herself thinks it strange that the weave is less effective against men, while the people she learned the pieces from used it mostly to infuence the men around them. The complexity is also quite possibly a result of the fact that it was pieced together from multiple sources that could no longer make themselves perform the original weave.

 

Concerning who she is, Verin cannot be an Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends, or any other Age. Not unless she is 3000+ years old anyway. RJ has stated that there are no time travellers in the series.

[merlinspetrock]

Yeah the whole from the AoL thig wasnt super serious. I do think she is pretty old though. Thing is she has been working on some super agenda of her own for 70 years. Well the fortelling that said the dragon was born only happened 20 something years ago, so I dont neccessarily think she has been working twoards this specific thing, and she seems concerned that events happening now might ruin her plans. The time she talked about people trying to kill her and her killing them instead are pretty interesting though. She is a pretty unassuming charachter and she must have been dealing with some bad dudes. I always thought it had something to do with dark friends. Not that she is black or anything because I dont believe that.

[vikingdriver]

I haven't completely finished reading the series yet but Verin's name seems to come up in the unlikliest of places which gives me pause to reflect whether or not she's Brown or Black. When she follows Rand and shows him how to use the towers to travel I first think that she's of the Black and when she works alone I think she's in the Black..., I guess what I'm saying is RJ wants me to believe that she is of the Black or something worse, but common sense is telling me that she has picked up where Morain left off but much more aggressive in how she does things yet subtle in what she's doing to help Rand.

 

Well, My explanation just sounded as confusing as Verin is.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If Verin would turn out Black, it would be one of the stangest twists that could happen. It would also be very difficult to pull it off in any believable manner. There is too much PoV information from her that just doesn't fit with a Darkfriend. Particularly her usage of mental games to justify her actions.

[merlinspetrock]

If Verin would turn out Black' date=' it would be one of the stangest twists that could happen. It would also be very difficult to pull it off in any believable manner. There is too much PoV information from her that just doesn't fit with a Darkfriend. Particularly her usage of mental games to justify her actions.[/quote']

 

I dont think that any of us really think she is black, just that she has had relations with dark friends in the past (wether for good or ill). She has got to be the biggest mystery since "who killed Asmodean." Her little adventure begins long before the vileness and the killing of Amyrlins by the black.

[Genesis_XVI]

I don't think Verin is Black either, but I don't think we can dismiss the notion that easily. She is far too suspicious a character to underestimate. Having said that, I think her mental justifications do reflect a person bound by the three oaths.

 

I would tend to think she is a dragon "hunter" just like Moiraine and Suian. I mean who's to say that Verin wasn't exposed to a similar foretelling or premonition. Or maybe she saw prophesised events predicting the coming of the Dragon in the world, and realised the time of the Dragon was upon them or something.

 

Anywho, does anyone have exact quotes on the section Merlinspetrock referred to where "she talked about people trying to kill her and her killing them instead." I can't find it.

 

Another interesting point:

*When Verin was going to poison Caddyshack, she stopped when Caddy revealed she was planning on aiding and not inhibiting Rand. This numbers amongst various other examples of things she's done to help Rand. Despite this, she was not Amongst the Aes Sedai Min views as "his".

 

Genesis_XVI

[Guest Egwene]

We also have a confirmed Black Sister helping Rand. A lot of people are doing the same thing for motives that are poles apart. Verin is no different.

 

One episode that has always caught my attention are 'the Daughters of Silence.

 

About two hundred years ago, two former Accepted gathered twenty-three other women who could channel and began organizing and teaching them. They called themselves the Daughters of Silence. The Aes Sedai quickly disbanded the group, enrolled the twenty three as novices and severely punished to two former Accepted. Only one achieved the shawl, Saerin Asnobar.

 

What if Verin was one of those two Accepted? Aren't some of the ones that didn't make it to Aes Sedai likely to be prominent in the Kin. Also, whilst being disbanded, who says these women didn't keep that group going? And what was the agenda?? And of course, Saerin is one of the Black Ajah hunters in the tower...

[KellySedai]

Verin has always been my favorite Aes Sedai. She has ten times the mystery of any of the others.

 

I personally have always believed that she is NOT Black, but I do think that she has either figured out how to remove certain oaths from herself using the Oath Rod (Killing only shadowspawn for instance.), or that she is so convinced by her own truth-her own path-that she can mentally convince herself to find ways to get around all three oaths. Now I'm certain that RJ will be making great use of her in the last book. What is quite a good question indeed, but I'm definitely looking forward to it. :D

 

On a side note, I have noticed that in each and every instance where she is going to kill or has mentioned actually killing someone, it is very clear that she did not use the Power to do so. We all know that any Aes Sedai can kill using other methods as they see fit so that would still keep with the Three Oaths.

[Luckers]

Firstly, Verin was not a Daughter of Silence... one the Black Ajah Hunters in the Tower was, is the only one of 'that lot' to have made it to the shawl--i.e. the only one to become Aes Sedai... its in your quote.

 

Those that didn't make it to Aes sedai were likely too traumatized to become figures of any significance in the Kin, especially since they were likely watched.

 

Its also unlikely Verin was a dragon-hunter. Or at least it seems that way to me... for one, as far as we can tell all of the hunters beside Moiraine and Suine (who weren't really hunters) got killed. We dont know that for sure, but given the evidence we HAVE seen, it seems likely. Also Verin's deductions and actions are as legitimate without this, as with--as in, even if she was, he actions were still wierd. Moreover her being a hunter doesn't actually explain anything that hasn't already been explained.

 

I think Verin, like Cadsuane, can't really be examined by manner of the groups in Aes Sedai. They've both shown themselves to be individuals and not indoctrinated with the novice-spiel. So aside from the evidence, i think the simple nature of their personality rules out things like the Black Ajah or the Dragon Hunters and so on.

[Guest Egwene]

Luckers, two Accepted trained 23 women. Of those 23 only Saerin made the shawl. I am suggesting Verin was one of those two Accepted, not one of the 23.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Verin cannot be either of them. The two were former Accepted. They weren't runaways, they were failures that were put out of the Tower. They were taken back for punishment, but neither of them would have gotten a second chance to be Aes Sedai.

[Guest Egwene]

Do you have the reference were it says they were put out, CW? Could the words 'former Accepted' possibly refer to the fact that they were Accepted at the time, but are now Aes Sedai?

[Guest cwestervelt]

The glossary for Winter's Heart has a section on the Daughters of Silence.

 

The Daughters consisted of two Accepted who had been put out of the Tower and twenty-three women they had gathered and trained.

[Guest Egwene]

thanks, CW... there goes a fun theory. Assuming Verin didn't come back under a guise, I guess I will have to look for these two accepted elsewhere. :(

[Luckers]

Moreover the statement was that the only one to have made the shawl who was involved in the Daughters of Silence was Saerin, not that she was the only one of the wilders to make it.

[Genesis_XVI]

I diagree with Luckers in his assertion that Moiraine and Suian weren't Dragon hunters. Ofcourse they were! They dedicated their lives from the moment they heard of his birth to finding him, ie; hunting him down. Dragon Hunter doesn't imply someone who meant Rand ill, not like the Black sister's looking for a "lucky child" in New Spring. Dragon Hunter instead implies someone making a concerted effort to find the Dragon. Regardless of intent.

 

Based on this definition we can see that Moiraine and Suian were Dragon Hunters. That the Black Sister's looking for Rand after the Aiel War were Dragon Hunter's. I would then suggest that Verin was a Dragon Hunter, and even propose that Cadsuane was one too. I mean, who really thinks Cadsuane was just sitting around pruning roses in retirement. She was reading the signs, and showed up at as many false Dragon's she could.

 

Dragon Hunter's all demonstrate both the acquisition of knowledge or research in the subject (this ranges from familiarising onself with the Karaetheon Cycle, to reading up on signs that denote a male channeler) and the travel that accompanies searching. Moiranine, Black Sisters, Cadsuane and Verin all fit this discription.

 

Basically, I assert that Verin suspected that the Dragon was to be reborn, and was preparing accordingly.

 

Genesis_XVI

[Guest Majsju]

Moiraine and Siuan were not officially "Dragon hunters". They gave themselves that task, and tried to convince themselves that they had Tamra's blessings because they were allowed to see the names collected, but Tamra never directly told them to find the Dragon. Moiraine had to run away from the tower to be able to search for Rand.

[Jonn]

Moiraine and Siuan were not officially "Dragon hunters". They gave themselves that task' date=' and tried to convince themselves that they had Tamra's blessings because they were allowed to see the names collected, but Tamra never directly told them to find the Dragon. Moiraine had to run away from the tower to be able to search for Rand.[/quote']

 

 

No, that just excludes them from being "Tamra's hunters". There are no official Dragon Hunters any more than there are official treasure hunters. You're either dedicated to looking or you're not. No one has to tell you to do it to make what you're doing official.

What you're talking about is Searchers being delegated. Politically, there were no "official Dragon Hunters". Tamra couldn't even openly send out her Searchers or even call them such. The fact that she did actually send people out to look, lead to her death. Tamra's Searchers are actually named such by Siuan and Moiraine, ironically enough. Officially, there was no name for them.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Within the context of Lucker's comments, "dragon hunters" refers solely to the Aes Sedai that Tamra sent on their "unofficial" missions. "Tamra's Searchers," if you prefer the term Jonn mentions Moiraine having used. With all the available information indicating each of those searchers was murdered, Verin cannot be one of "dragon hunters". His statements should not be read as saying she couldn't have been doing her own search based on information she herself uncovered. Considering that she jumped straight to Rand being the Dragon Reborn early in The Great Hunt I doubt anyone is saying she hadn't been at least spending some of her time searching for him.

[havoc110]

If Verin might have spent time in a vacuole or a stasis box, would that fit the definition of "time traveller" or sort of bend around it?

[merlinspetrock]

Hey Gen,

 

I mixed up acouple of differnet things when I made my statement about Verin killing. The quote was from PoD when Verin is interrogating the "Wise ones in training" one of the Aiel stares at her and she thinks to herself how she had weathered harder stares from people wtith no compunction of ending her life. Somehow I mixed that with the time she was going to poison Cadsuane into my previous statement. I still do believe that she has killed before (without the power mind you). But my original statement was wrong.