V for Vendetta... er... I mean... Verin.

[Jonn]

Just a thought, was the mistake Verin's or Cadsuane's... i remember Cadsuane thinking about her worst failure ever being around 70 years ago, anf i seem to remember something similar from Verin... When did that occur?

 

I thought Cadsuane underestimate a toothless Wilder. Or was that before?

 

Verin...I don't know. I know that she doesn't seem to want to be recognised in Far Madding. That's for sure, but that seems more recent.

 

The sevenspokes timeline says that her mistake was around 929 NE, just under 25 years before Malkier fell. There aren't any other events of that importance around the time.

 

I think it refers to her making a judgement call and it turning out to be completely wrong and it cost her.

 

It could also mark the time she came into possession of some kind of information telling her where her path should go and how to get there...Hence, she would make no more major mistakes afterwards.

 

Just guesses.

[Luckers]

I know that cadsuane's big failure was her attempt to root out the Black Ajah, and that that was about 70 years ago. I dont actually recall Verin mentioning a mistake though.

[Kaznen]

The Cadsuane and toothless wilder encounter was after she just gained the shawl, which is about 250-75 years ago. She thought, as a new young AS, that she was the sh!t and was humbled by a wilder. She spent a few years in servatude to the wilder and gained all her "trinkets" that she is known for.

 

I think that encounter is part of the reason she doens't see AS as the end all be all of channlers and her lax attitude and respect for AS authority.

[jo]

I think because Verin is Brown she found some way to get rid of the three oaths. But I don't think she's bad. She's had so many chances to betray Rand and hasn't as far as I can tell.

[Vo0]

Does anyone else here think that Verin is Mesaana masquerading ?

 

In WH or TPoD Alviarin grovels at Mesaana's feet and breaks the Illusion revealing bronze skirts with black scrollwork. And also that she taps her lips when she's in thought. In WH it is revealed that Verin is wearing bronze skirts and then later when she talks to Rand in Far Madding when he tells her what to say to Cadsuane, she taps her fingers against her lips in thought.

 

 

Anyone else think this is Mesaana...

 

...or just coincidence ?

 

and i have read that post just up there ^ but it's entirely possible Graendal had Mask of Mirrors, inverted the weave and concealed being able to channel ? it's not impossible, we know the Forsaken plot against each other and also Elza killed Osan'gar without knowing who he was.. Can we really rule out Verin as not being Forsaken ?

[Barnabas]

i dont think she can be, how could mesaana have been freed for long enough to have made verins mistake of 70years ago? and how would she know not to be known in far madding? also that possibility doesnt match up with Verins POV's that we've had through the series, i think personality is a stronger basis than clothing for this sort of thing

[Vo0]

I don't know how to answer the first one :P and i don't understand your second one. What do you mean not be known in FM ? another point is when Rand declares he's going to use the Choedan Kal to cleanse the taint she doesn't seem all that shocked and we know the Forsaken already knew of it... Mesaana used to be a teacher and was not allowed into Collam Daan and Verin is Brown Ajah...

[dyring]

Verin was shocked when katherinn Alrudding(spelling may be incorrect, didnt check books before writing) (red/black ajah) escaped from the aiel. Why if she was mesaana? Why think katherine is dangerous then?

 

Verin is an enigma, she´s obviously not Mesana, and almost certainly not black either.

 

//dyring

[Vo0]

She escaped from the aiel because Verin let her.. as for the "obviously not mesaana or black ajah" why is it obvious ? in what way is it obvious if she's an enigma then it's clearly NOT obvious..

 

as for shocked obviously she's playing the part.. but if you're suggesting the forsaken can't be shocked ?

[merlinspetrock]

I dont think Verin let her escape. Read that passage again. Verin was quite upset that she escaped and felt that Rand should be made aware of the fact. I think your grasping at straws here. Verin is in no way, shape, or form Messana. Messana is hiding in the tower and Verin hasnt been in the tower since book 3. Also Verins pov's clearly show she is not Messana or any of the other forsaken.

 

Also add in the fact that Verin was in the tower in A New Spring. There is no way she was any fosaken then as the only one who was lose at the time was Ishamael.

[Luckers]

Again look to Verin's POV during the Cleansing. She sees a Forsaken, doesn't recognize which forsaken it is. Conciders how helpful a captive forsaken would be, tried to fight her and is shocked to realise she was already holding the power.

 

She is not forsaken or black ajah. Lets just set that in stone.

[Barnabas]

"What do you mean not be known in FM ?" on the basis that mesaana is verin (which i dont agree with, but doesnt matter) we would have to assume that Verin did, at some point, exist as a person herself, too many people have known her for too long. What i meant by my comment is that how would Mesaana know that Verin couldnt be known in Far Madding? seems like a fairly random thing to have found out during interrogation

[Vo0]

well it was only IMO lol jees give a POV and you get shot down in flames..

[Barnabas]

noones meaning to shoot you down, just pointing out the reasons that your idea doesnt work, we've all been there done that..cant be right everytime

[Vo0]

I seem to be right no times though :P hehe

[Jonn]

I seem to be right no times though :P hehe

 

Don't be too hard on yourself. Not many people are 100% right, or even half right for that matter.

[Luckers]

Maybe Maj...

[Jonn]

Maybe Maj...

 

Being half right? :) Sure, I'll support that. :D

[Luckers]

I was going for the hundred coz usually he posts in reactions to other people. but meh...

[Auld Manriva]

I don't think i've ever thought of Verin as black. I no longer see her as a "plump Sparrow," or something as equally benign either. More like a Horned Owl(insert your fav large owl).She's dangerous but not at first glance

 

She knows the prophecies and believes that the Dragon is a tool to survive TG. Her goal all along is to see he gets there, whatever it takes. That He is strong enough, knowledgeable, able to defeat not destroy the DO and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

I see Moiraine, Verin and Cadsuane all seeking to insure his victory,each in her own way while not destroying all in the process.

 

I think Verin has decided to let both Cadsuane AND Moiraine live, determining each was no threat and were needed in fact, to educate him. Both women I believe have experienced that feeling of being observed and judged by Verin, leading Moiraine for one to admonish Rand not to trust Verin too much or words to that effect.

[thetopgun]

Just an interesting point id like to make.

 

She still had a task. Somehow, she had to keep young Rand alive until it was time for him to die

 

Verins POV from Deceptive Appearances in POD.

 

Also i agree with the Corean Nadeal (sp?) theory, about reading her notes.

[Guest Harso]

This from way far back in the post, but I don't think we can assume Coreanin is Black. The BA knew what the dream ter'angreal did because a forsaken had told alviarin. They were free at the time they were stolen.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I've thought about the Foresaken as being the reason those Ter'angreal were stolen, and while it is a simple explanation, it doesn't fit. The Ter'angreal taken were specifically selected, they weren't random. For the Foresaken ordering the theft just doesn't fit.

 

1) How did the Foresaken know those specific Ter'angreal were in the Tower? Also, if they knew they were there, they could have removed them themselves.

2) The Foresaken have been desperate to get there hands on any Angreal, Sa'angreal and Ter'angreal, so why would they leave them in the Black Sisters posession later? So far, all of the stolen Ter'angreal have turned up as still in the posession of that original group of 13 Black Sisters that fled the Tower.

3) The Foresaken don't need them, and actually consider those Ter'angreal as "training tools" so why would they order their removal?

[Illiara]

How about this wierd theory....

 

Maybe Verin IS Messana...... :?

[rochaid]

as luckers has already mentioned,in verin's PoV appearance in WH,she doesn't regonise the forsaken,in fact just,read luckers' previous posts,its all there,verin is not forsaken