Languages in Randland

[zanotam]

Okay, so I noticed another thread got derailed and closed on the discussion of languages, so I thought a new one would make sense. One of the things people seem to be forgetting is that the entire planet started with a single language, waygates, Aes Sedai, trollocs, etc. have made it more difficult for areas to develop into different languages, the regular people and Seanchan seem to have a lot of trouble understanding when they talk, one of the keys to language differentiation is isolation, everyone we know of still spoke the old tongue at least during the Trolloc Wars and so the languages haven't had more than about 2000 years to differentiate themselves, languages like English, French, German, Spanish, and Portugese for example all have many shared words and language structure, the only lands we know of that speak the same language all trade, fight, unite, kill, etc. together and so language development would be tricky, the languages keep similar structures and everything but they do have different words and terms as shown for example by all the different names for the DO and Mydrall, their are many lands we do not know much about besides brief mention (which has always bugged me a little bit, I mean, at this point it's hard to imagine how they could be integrated into Tarmon Gai'dan) and for all we know they DO speak a different language, and last, but probably most important, it's just a book series.

[Roxinos]

When I said my single sentence, I certainly didn't mean it to turn into an entire discussion. I was just using it as an example of why suspension of disbelief is key in reading any good fantasy.

[Jellybelly]

This is a good thread, I would really like to continue the discussion with RAW. He once again made some interesting claims about historical linguistics, which must be answered (however "irrelevant" they may be). He's fun. It will have to wait for tomorrow, though. Anyway, good thread!

 

I will however note, RAW, that "utilise" is a valid spelling (you may check the OED, if there is need). We are not all Americans.

[zanotam]

When I said my single sentence, I certainly didn't mean it to turn into an entire discussion. I was just using it as an example of why suspension of disbelief is key in reading any good fantasy.

Oh, no, I completely understand what you meant, but after the last hour or so of reading this board, I've noticed that most people don't seem to notice quite how well done the WoT world is, and so things like this are worth mentioning. Plus, who knows, there may be a mention somewhere in a book that someone found that handles this. Oh, and the languages I know of are old tongue, the common language, trolloc, and I think there was a mention of some sort of 'evil' language that wasn't the trolloc language (only vague remembrance there though). Also, one of the keys to remember is that news from the faraway lands might be translated already, and for example, the Forsaken can talk normally even though they presumably did not know the language, and a hole that big is not something RJ would just let through, and so language might not be quite as...well....the old tongue may be far older than we realize, the ability to channel could involve something with languages, and well, it's a topic not explored much, but who knows.

[mb]

Currently in Randland there seem just two languages: The Old Tongue and the new tongue.

 

Isolation is not the only thing that causes new languages.  Combining other languages/dialects can also develop a new language.

 

[Achoo]

Forsaken can talk normally even though they presumably did not know the language

 

I would like to point out that the Forsaken are likely to have studied the world they wanted to take over once they were released. This would explain why some of them (i.e. Rahvin, Semirhage, Sammael) understood politics in Randland.

[zanotam]

Forsaken can talk normally even though they presumably did not know the language

 

I would like to point out that the Forsaken are likely to have studied the world they wanted to take over once they were released. This would explain why some of them (i.e. Rahvin, Semirhage, Sammael) understood politics in Randland.

First, I actually was trying to point out the combination thing about languages, which could significantly slow the drift potentially if there was only one starting language.

 

The key is of course how soon they were released of course, but the main flaw in that is the fact that almost nobody REALLY knows the old tongue, some of them were locked away completely from time itself. Also, learning a language is hardly easy and since some of them seemed to know it seemingly right after released it's just....odd....

[Roxinos]

They didn't know it "right after release."

 

Many of the Chosen were free for months before we see them. They were just lying in wait, learning about the political climates of the world, the language, etc. The exceptions are Aginor, Balthalmel, and Ishamael. Ishamael was never completely sealed. Aginor and Balthalmel were sealed near the top, so they were able to see time progress before their eyes for 3000 years. They gleaned something from it.

[Thorum]

Let's assume 2000 years to differentiate

 

We can easily compare with the real world: 2000 years ago, everyone in Southern Europe spoke Latin (aka "Old Tongue"). Today, we have Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and Catalan who have all evolved from this one language (not mentioning some small ones)

 

Or, 2000 years ago, we had 1 German language, which today is separated into English, Dutch, German, Frisian, Afrikaans, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, ... En dan vraag ik me af wat jullie van deze laatste zin begrijpen ;D (That was Dutch)

[JB Sedai]

It still seems kinda weird that 2000 years in real life gave us different languages, but in Randland, they only have different dialects and accents.

 

I speak 2 languages in the Germanic branch, but I won't be able to communicate at all if I'm in Norway.  I speak English and understand a bit of Latin, but I don't understand Portuguese.  This basically proves that in Randland Proper, there is only one language, with many different variations (and of course the Old Tongue).

 

OTOH, I seem to recall that RJ said somewhere that the language they speak in Randland is much simpler than English, and the Old Tongue more complex than Latin.  So, if all the languages are really close together (like Spanish and Portuguese, or Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans) it may well be that what we perceive in the books as different dialects are actually different, but closely related languages.

 

Some have argued that the Aes Sedai have kept the language relatively constant since the Breaking.  They travel all over the world out of a communal hub (the White Tower), and have lots of influence.  But Aes Sedai are just as fickle (if not more) as anyone else.  Aes Sedai resist change, but if they can't, they easily adapt to it and move on.  I don't see them having any effect on language whatsoever.  Also, they don't have much influence in the country, only in the cities.

 

However likely or unlikely any of this is, all we have to go on is what RJ said.

1) When he wrote the books, RJ conveniently translated their dialogue into English so we can understand them.  They definitely don't speak English.

2) The people in the books understand each other.

3) The Aeil sometimes have trouble understanding the Sharans. (validity check needed here)

4) Everyone have trouble understanding the Seanchan, and vice versa.

5) ?

6) ??

 

 

 

 

Thorum:

Ek verstaan jou laaste sin perfek, sonder probleme. (Afrikaans)

[Thorum]

Ik denk dat de Engelstaligen er meer problemen mee zullen hebben, vrees ik ;D

 

Afrikaans and Dutch only diverged like 500 years ago (give or take a couple of centuriees)

[CUBAREY]

So, if all the languages are really close together (like Spanish and Portuguese, or Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans) it may well be that what we perceive in the books as different dialects are actually different, but closely related languages.

 

Unless a Spainish speaker also has some knowledge of Galician )or Gallego to use the spanish name) he/she is unlikely to be able to understand Portugese. Now someone fluent in spanish might be able to make out written Portugese (and probably could understand written Italian) the spoken languages themselves are divurgent enough that unless one has a very good "ear for languages' he is not going to be able to understand Portugese. Now a Brazilian would be able to understand someone from Portugal and a Spainiard is likely able to understand anyone in the spanish speaking Americas but there the only real difficulty as in WOT is with the accent, not vocabulary, sentence structure or grammer which is the problem in understanding a seperate language. Moreover, from we have seen only the Illianers seems to speak a slightly different dialect then the other WOT speakers, everyone else seems merely to have a different accent.

[Elgee]

Or, 2000 years ago, we had 1 German language, which today is separated into English, Dutch, German, Frisian, Afrikaans, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, ... En dan vraag ik me af wat jullie van deze laatste zin begrijpen ;D (That was Dutch)

 

En dan vra ek my af wat julle van hierdie laaste sin begryp. (That was the Afrikaans)

 

Ik denk dat de Engelstaligen er meer problemen mee zullen hebben, vrees ik ;D

 

Afrikaans and Dutch only diverged like 500 years ago (give or take a couple of centuriees)

 

Ek dink dat die Engelstaliges meer probleme daarmee sal he(with a ^ on the e), vrees ek. (the Afrikaans)

 

Afrikaans as a language only really started developing in the 19th Century. It wasn't even used in schools during my grandparents' time.

 

 

ps edit: I got so excited about the fact that not only does another person on here actually KNOW about my home language (Afrikaans), but also knows what it IS, that I quite forgot what point I'm trying to make  ;D

 

[Thorum]

So, if all the languages are really close together (like Spanish and Portuguese, or Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans) it may well be that what we perceive in the books as different dialects are actually different, but closely related languages.

 

Unless a Spainish speaker also has some knowledge of Galician )or Gallego to use the spanish name) he/she is unlikely to be able to understand Portugese. Now someone fluent in spanish might be able to make out written Portugese (and probably could understand written Italian) the spoken languages themselves are divurgent enough that unless one has a very good "ear for languages' he is not going to be able to understand Portugese. Now a Brazilian would be able to understand someone from Portugal and a Spainiard is likely able to understand anyone in the spanish speaking Americas but there the only real difficulty as in WOT is with the accent, not vocabulary, sentence structure or grammer which is the problem in understanding a seperate language. Moreover, from we have seen only the Illianers seems to speak a slightly different dialect then the other WOT speakers, everyone else seems merely to have a different accent.

 

Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans are much better examples of similar languages, BUT they only diverged a couple of centuries ago. For 200-year-diverged languages (Portuguese-Spanish) this is too difficult.

 

ps edit: I got so excited about the fact that not only does another person on here actually KNOW about my home language (Afrikaans), but also knows what it IS, that I quite forgot what point I'm trying to make  ;D

I've got the same... Most people even in Flanders don't consider Flemish to be a different language than Dutch ;D. That doesn't stop them using subtitles, though...

[Elgee]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Flemish a bit closer to Afrikaans than Dutch? I certainly find it easier to understand.

[zanotam]

Another key difference is of course the evolution of written and spoken languages. We know the Ogier had (have?) their own special written language, and it seems likely based on some things the browns do that there are more than just the few we've heard of (Old tongue, Ogier Script, 'Common', Trolloc). I mean, for someone who speaks and reads spanish they might find it possible to read Portugese, but they'd find it a far easier thing to speak to someone who knows French than to read it. The main problem is that we've had all these division among languages and what not in our world, but Randland is far different with everyone speaking the exact same language, no native languages to blend and combine with, and once again, if people trade, ally, move around constantly it reduces the chance of a language morphing into something else. If England, Australia, and the US didn't trade and keep in contact, they might already be speaking different languages. In the modern world we also have a lot of languages dying out and being replaced, so who knows, maybe the idea of everyone speaking basically the same language will look like a genius prediction of the future in 50 years.

 

On another note, what languages do we know that exist? Ogier script, Old tongue, Written old tongue, 'Common', Spoken 'Common', possibly a different language in Shara, Treesong (a language?).

[Charlz Guybon]

Some have argued that the Aes Sedai have kept the language relatively constant since the Breaking.  They travel all over the world out of a communal hub (the White Tower), and have lots of influence.  But Aes Sedai are just as fickle (if not more) as anyone else.  Aes Sedai resist change, but if they can't, they easily adapt to it and move on.  I don't see them having any effect on language whatsoever.  Also, they don't have much influence in the country, only in the cities.

 

However likely or unlikely any of this is, all we have to go on is what RJ said.

1) When he wrote the books, RJ conveniently translated their dialogue into English so we can understand them.  They definitely don't speak English.

2) The people in the books understand each other.

3) The Aeil sometimes have trouble understanding the Sharans. (validity check needed here)

4) Everyone have trouble understanding the Seanchan, and vice versa.

5) ?

6) ??

 

Thorum:

Ek verstaan jou laaste sin perfek, sonder probleme. (Afrikaans)

 

Far more important then the Aes Sedai is the fact that the printing press has existed since the end of the Breaking. As long as books are being printed for a mass audience, the langauge will change much more slowly than it would in an illiterate society.

[Charlz Guybon]

So, if all the languages are really close together (like Spanish and Portuguese, or Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans) it may well be that what we perceive in the books as different dialects are actually different, but closely related languages.

 

Unless a Spainish speaker also has some knowledge of Galician )or Gallego to use the spanish name) he/she is unlikely to be able to understand Portugese. Now someone fluent in spanish might be able to make out written Portugese (and probably could understand written Italian) the spoken languages themselves are divurgent enough that unless one has a very good "ear for languages' he is not going to be able to understand Portugese.

That's not true, my Dad's Puerto Rican, only graduated High School and he understands our Portuguese neighbors fine if they speak slowly.

[accelerate]

The only reason I thought Randland must have a language similar to English is that Min once made a quip about "toh" and "toes" (I forget the exact quote). So either it's a coincidence those two words sound the same in Randland, or English is an offshoot of Randland.

[CUBAREY]

That's not true, my Dad's Puerto Rican, only graduated High School and he understands our Portuguese neighbors fine if they speak slowly.

 

And I can understand at least the gist of a statement in French if it is said slowly enough. But that is a lot different from being able to fully understand someone. Spanish and Portugese are about 50% mutually intelligle, so you can make out the jist of what someone is saying, but you would have a rather hard time understanding technical conversations or the particulars of even general conversations. And like I said some people of an "ear for Languages." My younger sister was able to understand Italian from the first day she spent in country and was able to converse in Italian in less then a month (that does not mean that the average spanish speaker would be able to do the same).

[Graendals favourite]

what languages do we know that exist?

Finnish of course. The 'finns got to speak something....

[Roxinos]

...I hate you for that.

[Graendals favourite]

Love you=)

[Roxinos]

I'll just be over here crying.