Aiel post Last Battle

[Builder]

So basically the remnant of the remnant are the Shaido plus other Aiel, and the Aiel that will survive are the ones that are going back to the Waste and who are already around Rhuidean?

 

Does that mean that all Aiel on the Western side of the Wall will be killed?

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Moreover, to pick up on RAW'S analogy the returning Ail would see themselves as the surviving Ail (or Jews) who keep to the Three Fold Land and follow the Age old customs (keep the Jewish Covenant with God).

 

Actually, the Jenn were the only ones who kept the original covenant, but the Tinkers are closer than the Shaido.  The original covenant was to serve the Aes Sedai and keep the Way of the Leaf.  The Tinkers are still doing one out of two; the Shaido are keeping neither portion.

 

Serving the Aes Sedai? The Tinkers seem to have no problem doing that, we know of at least one ex-AE agent, and really, who better to have report to the AE than a group of people who go everywhere, have an interesting look on things, and most importantly, seem to get along surprisingly well with the AE. If I remember right, when a tinker girl learns she can channel they all head to drop her off at the WT. A major AE goal is peace and preventing war after all, a return to the AoL where peace reigned.

 

 

Acutally, you may recall that Tinkers also don't want to start channeling (mentioned by Moiraine in A New Spring), so this definately isn't part of serving Aes Sedai, just of them not wanting any Wilders to provoke the Aes Sedai into come after them. 

[Builder]

Ok, fine, but how are you gonna prevent someone from channeling now? Hm?

[CUBAREY]

I think the Shaido will be part of the remnant of a remnant but that remnant will also include those of the other clans that follow Rand. The Reason the Shaido had so many Aiel with them was because they brought their entire clan. The other clans pretty much only brought the algai'd'siswai. Therefore that also means that the majority of the non-fighters (women, children, etc) are still "safe" on the Waste. Rand has several hundred thousand Aiel on this side of the Dragonwall with him so I think a remnant of those would be a few tens of thousands of Aiel.

 

I'm not sure the Shaido are even considered to be Aiel anymore. They're no longer Aiel yet they're not the Tua'than. The Tinkers take the women who can channel to Tar Valon, which might be a problem now since many are moving to Seanchan-held territory. The Tinkers, Jenn Aiel, and the Aiel who were hit by the bleakness who are attempting to follow the Way of the Leaf.

 

Those Ail who stayed in the Waste and are from the Clans that follow Rand are destined to become something else. Virtually all the male warriors consider themselves "property of the Dragon". Those male and female warriors and those that stayed in the Waste are destined to become something other then traditional "Ail". The Shaido still consider themselves Ail and are returning to the Waste to stay. After the Last Battle and its aftermath the only groupf that will still seem to be Ail will be the Shaido.

 

 

Tinkers are not Ail at all (their forebears some 3000 years ago were Gin Ail, but they have nothing in commen with Ail) and the only thing they have in commen with Gin Ail is that they are folowers of the Way of the Leaf. Moreover, while there are some Tinkers who are agents for Aes Sedie does does not make Tinkers as a whole servants to AS any more then the fact that their are Tearen agents make all citizens off Tear servants of the AS.

[Mr Ares]

The only thing Tinkers have in commen with Gin Ail is...

Their preferred alcoholic beverage?

[Builder]

And what about my question?

 

So basically the remnant of the remnant are the Shaido plus other Aiel, and the Aiel that will survive are the ones that are going back to the Waste and who are already around Rhuidean?

 

Does that mean that all Aiel on the Western side of the Wall will be killed?

 

Their preferred alcoholic beverage?

 

I lol'd :)

[Durinax]

I think most of the ones west of the dragonwall will die. I predict about 10-20 thousand will survive. A remaint = total Aiel - (the bleakness + destruction of shaido),

a remaint of a remaint = remaint - war against the shadow

that is what I think a remaint of a remaint, cause you dont hear of the bleakness anymore with the death of the shaido.

[Luckers]

There is no reason to fight the Shaido now.  Couladin and Sevanna are dead.  The rest just want to go home and milk their gara in peace.

 

Sevanna's not dead you know. She's just Tylee's plaything.

 

My thought on the Aiel are thus.

 

Firstly, I think it should be noted that the exact phrase is 'the remnant of a remnant'. Its an important distinction I think, because it changes the subject of the sentence. A remnant of a remnant is sequential, it continues on adding to the description. The remnant of a remnant separates the sentence--by which I mean it makes each remnant refer to a different thing.

 

Which is a fancy way of saying that rather than simply mean that the Aiel are gonna get nearly wiped out--that there will be only a remnant of a remnant left numbers wise, i think the phrase represents a sequence of changes within the Aiel. But that’s all esoteric gibberish.

 

The actual reality of it all is that i think the modern Aiel are already one of the remnants spoken of. Consider that the prophecy was spoken by Aes Sedai living with the Jenn, who remembered the Dai'shain and the First Covenant--still lived it, really. Modern Aiel as they are a remnant of the Dai'shain, and I think that is the first step in the chain--a fact that is added to by the fact that whoever spoke the prophecy actually used the words 'those that call themselves Aiel' indicating quite clearly that from their perspective (of which the Foretelling was spoken) modern Aiel are not actually Aiel. It's the same as the whole 'so-called Aiel' thing.

 

So irrespective of whether or not it refers to deaths and damage i dont think its going to be as severe as the wording 'a remnant of a remnant' suggests (hence my first paragraph).

 

From there though I would say that I actually don't think the prophecy refers to Aiel dying in great numbers at all. Oh, I think that will happen--the Aiel are way to into the whole 'till water is gone, till shade is gone' thing not to be at the head of the fight in Tarmon Gai'don, so they are going to be taking heavy lossed. I just don't think that prophecy refers to them dying Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Consider that the prophecy says 'He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live.'

 

That indicates to me that what's going on with the remnants results directly from Rand's actions against the Aiel. Specifically, I'm talking about the revelation of the First Covenant and the sin of the Aiel. Thats were the decline of the modern Aiel began, where things began to get nasty.

 

So thats my argument--or more precisely my argument is that the remnant of a remnant refers to a social change, not to great losses. Modern Aiel whose culture stems from the Dai'shain are a remnant, and the Aiel that will exist after Tarmon Gai'don will be much the same--similar to the modern Aiel, born from that culture, but different.

 

And consider how its already begun--the revelation of the Aiel's past and the bleakness, the fact that Aiel are mixing for the first time with the non-Aiel on a social level, the Wise Ones getting over their fear of Aes Sedai and standing up for themselves, the Wise Ones fighting--and consider how it will continue, with the truth of the Aiel known to all Aiel they will have to devise a new method of selecting chiefs, with travelling the Waste cannot remain so hidden away, so the Aiel are going to have to take their place on the world stage. With men able to channel the Wise One organisation will need to expand to include men, or adapt to their presense in some way. The entire gender system will be thrown into chaos.

 

Rand is the beginning of all of it--he stripped away what the Aiel were--or did things that will strip away even more of how they lived. It's why aiel are becoming siswai'aman--because their culture is falling apart.

 

They'll survive, but they'll be different. I do hope they cling to ji'e'toh though.

 

[Luckers]

Who knows, maybe Sevanna will enjoy being a pet. :p

[Muad Cheade]

There is no reason to fight the Shaido now.  Couladin and Sevanna are dead.  The rest just want to go home and milk their gara in peace.

 

Sevanna's not dead you know. She's just Tylee's plaything.

 

My thought on the Aiel are thus.

 

Firstly, I think it should be noted that the exact phrase is 'the remnant of a remnant'. Its an important distinction I think, because it changes the subject of the sentence. A remnant of a remnant is sequential, it continues on adding to the description. The remnant of a remnant separates the sentence--by which I mean it makes each remnant refer to a different thing.

 

Which is a fancy way of saying that rather than simply mean that the Aiel are gonna get nearly wiped out--that there will be only a remnant of a remnant left numbers wise, i think the phrase represents a sequence of changes within the Aiel. But that’s all esoteric gibberish.

 

The actual reality of it all is that i think the modern Aiel are already one of the remnants spoken of. Consider that the prophecy was spoken by Aes Sedai living with the Jenn, who remembered the Dai'shain and the First Covenant--still lived it, really. Modern Aiel as they are a remnant of the Dai'shain, and I think that is the first step in the chain--a fact that is added to by the fact that whoever spoke the prophecy actually used the words 'those that call themselves Aiel' indicating quite clearly that from their perspective (of which the Foretelling was spoken) modern Aiel are not actually Aiel. It's the same as the whole 'so-called Aiel' thing.

 

So irrespective of whether or not it refers to deaths and damage i dont think its going to be as severe as the wording 'a remnant of a remnant' suggests (hence my first paragraph).

 

From there though I would say that I actually don't think the prophecy refers to Aiel dying in great numbers at all. Oh, I think that will happen--the Aiel are way to into the whole 'till water is gone, till shade is gone' thing not to be at the head of the fight in Tarmon Gai'don, so they are going to be taking heavy lossed. I just don't think that prophecy refers to them dying Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Consider that the prophecy says 'He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live.'

 

That indicates to me that what's going on with the remnants results directly from Rand's actions against the Aiel. Specifically, I'm talking about the revelation of the First Covenant and the sin of the Aiel. Thats were the decline of the modern Aiel began, where things began to get nasty.

 

So thats my argument--or more precisely my argument is that the remnant of a remnant refers to a social change, not to great losses. Modern Aiel whose culture stems from the Dai'shain are a remnant, and the Aiel that will exist after Tarmon Gai'don will be much the same--similar to the modern Aiel, born from that culture, but different.

 

And consider how its already begun--the revelation of the Aiel's past and the bleakness, the fact that Aiel are mixing for the first time with the non-Aiel on a social level, the Wise Ones getting over their fear of Aes Sedai and standing up for themselves, the Wise Ones fighting--and consider how it will continue, with the truth of the Aiel known to all Aiel they will have to devise a new method of selecting chiefs, with travelling the Waste cannot remain so hidden away, so the Aiel are going to have to take their place on the world stage. With men able to channel the Wise One organisation will need to expand to include men, or adapt to their presense in some way. The entire gender system will be thrown into chaos.

 

Rand is the beginning of all of it--he stripped away what the Aiel were--or did things that will strip away even more of how they lived. It's why aiel are becoming siswai'aman--because their culture is falling apart.

 

They'll survive, but they'll be different. I do hope they cling to ji'e'toh though.

 

 

"I think the prophecy: "He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live." goes against your thought.

 

The entire quote references how much the Aiel will suffer : "spill the blood," "as if water on sand," "break them," and "remnant of a remnant...shall live."

 

I think if it were more of a philosophical change then the bleakness would have hit the clans harder or less because the remnant would not come until after Tarmon Gai'don if you understand what I'm saying.

 

Also, we also read that the Wise Ones know Rand will break them and are trying to save as many Aiel as they can.

 

I think "the remnant of a remnant" is numerical in nature and used to symbolize the small amount of survivors. It would be similar to "the fraction of a fraction."

[Kaznen]

I think the Seanchan will get a bit of a surprise the day after the one year anniversary of the Battle of Cairahien.

 

Another a year and a day after after Dumani's Wells.

 

And a massive one a year and a day after the battle of Malden.

[Builder]

Why Kaznen?

[CUBAREY]

Why Kaznen?

 

Ail Warriors consider themselves Gaishin for a year and a day if captured in a battle. Thus they are docile. However at the end of the year and a day they revert to being Aiel Warriors which is as far away from being docile as you can get.

[zanotam]

"He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live."

 

So, lets go phrase by phrase.

 

(If I got wording or punctuation wrong, please tell me!)

 

"He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand"

 

"and he shall break them as with dried twigs"

 

"but the remnant of a remnant he will save"

 

"and they shall live"

 

"He":Rand Al'Thor

"Those that call themselves Aiel": The use of Aiel instead of Dedicated could be important. Those that call themselves rules out the Tinker's presumably, it also would seem to say that they are not GENUINELY Aiel. Assuming the use of the actual capitalized term, that rules out "the Dedicated" and the Tinkers

 

"spill the blood of .... as if water on sand" "and he shall break them as with dried twigs" Deciding whether these two phrase are connected is important. It could say that he shall spill their blood as if water on sand, which would seem to meant that a lot of bleeding will be done, presumably literally, as in lots of dying. It could be figuratively, their dedication to fighting and their toughness is what makes them who they are, their lifeblood, and so the split of the Shaido and the bleakness could be this. And he shall break them as with dried twigs could refer to more killing, but dried twigs are what spears are, and they are the Dragon's Spear.

 

"But the remnant of a remnant he will save" "and they shall live" this means those he saves he purposefully does so, this could mean the Maidens (if he can stop them), he could have a few stay back, but the key is HE WILL DO IT ON PURPOSE. And they shall live is presumably connected to the previous statement, but it might not be. It could refer to the survival of those who call themselves Aiel or the remnant of a remnant. The remnant of a remnant is also important, THE means that you must take one remnant, and then some of that remnant will be separated out again.

[Durinax]

he shall break them as with dried twigs = bleakness

he will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand = destruction of the Aiel, I belive that they claimed that they where the only Aiel because they dont follow rand

 

in this interpretation the Shaido called themselves Aiel and they where slaughtered but no idea if this is right

[zanotam]

The key I'm pointing out though, even though it means my earlier statements and beliefs were wrong, is that HE as in RAND will make a conscious decision to save the remnant of a remnant. RAND will break them and he will be the cause of their bleeding, even if he does not cut them open with his own power.

[Durinax]

woops I noticed a mistake that made me look like an idiot revised version :

 

he shall break them as with dried twigs = bleakness

he will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand = destruction of the Shaido, I belive that they claimed that they where the only Aiel because they dont follow rand

 

in this interpretation the Shaido called themselves Aiel and they where slaughtered but no idea if this is right

[Kaznen]

Why Kaznen?

 

Ail Warriors consider themselves Gaishin for a year and a day if captured in a battle. Thus they are docile. However at the end of the year and a day they revert to being Aiel Warriors which is as far away from being docile as you can get.

And the Aiel Gai'shain the Seanchan captured when the Shaido surrendered in varous encounters were convert to da'coval.  And it is fair to think the Shaido "captured" a lot of Gai'shain at Cairahien and the Wells.  It also looks like regular trade shipments between Seanchan and Randland will be cut off.  So pretty soon there will be thousands of naked Aiel running around the Seanchan controled parts of Randland.

 

BTW: All Aiel except children under 16, blacksmiths, and women with children under eight can become Gai'shain.  And they can all fight if pressed.

[Luckers]

"I think the prophecy: "He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live." goes against your thought.

 

The entire quote references how much the Aiel will suffer : "spill the blood," "as if water on sand," "break them," and "remnant of a remnant...shall live."

 

It doesn't though--it speaks of their suffering, and that their suffering results from Rand's actions--but then it seperates that. "'they'll suffer' BUT the remnant of a remnant with he save, and they will live".

 

The way you broke the sentence specifically removes the linguistic breaks within the sentence. Those breaks completely alter the progression of the sentence, the flow of the direction.

 

Your sentence, broken that way, reads as a whole as 'and he shall spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and shall break them, and a remnant of a remnant shall live.' which is a vastly different sentence.

 

I think if it were more of a philosophical change then the bleakness would have hit the clans harder or less because the remnant would not come until after Tarmon Gai'don if you understand what I'm saying.

 

I do, but your wrong, the remnant is already occuring--as i covered. Already we have seen vast changes within the Aiel--the bleakness is but one aspect of this. The Wise Ones no longer revering Aes Sedai is another, the presence of travelling which means the Aiel can no longer remain in hiding. The revelation of their past meaning they need to design a new way to select chiefs, the presence of male channelers disrupting the male/female balance between Wise Ones and Chiefs.

 

Their society is in flux.

 

Also, we also read that the Wise Ones know Rand will break them and are trying to save as many Aiel as they can.

 

Which is an interpretation, an opinion. And we know how falliable those are within the text.

 

 

I think the Seanchan will get a bit of a surprise the day after the one year anniversary of the Battle of Cairahien.

 

Yup. I look more forward to the Wise One damane--Wise One cannot be taken gai'shain and have no reason to submit themselves--and they are also the best equiped to deal with damane training.

 

 

[zanotam]

I think the key still is that RAND will save them. They won't pussy out and in doing so live, they won't get lucky, and they won't be left alone, the only survivors will be those Rand protects.