Hidden ajah

[Kaznen]

...I never said that the Tower doesn't have potentially complete copies of the Karaethon Cycle.

 

What I was doubting is your preconception that "every AS has read the KC in the old tounge and several translations."

 

Which I still doubt.

Are you accusing me of saying somehting RAW said, or accusing RAW of saying something I said?

[Roxinos]

...Neither.

 

Here, I'll give you a play-by-play of what happened.

 

You said: "Every AS has read the KC in the old tounge and several translations. Many rulers have read it also, getting the whole KC is not a hard task, every decent library in Randland has it."

 

I responded: "And where do you get this preconception?"

 

You misinterpreted what I asked to be asking about why you thought getting the whole KC was not a hard task. I never thought that it was a hard task. The "preconception" I was referring to was that "every Aes Sedia has read the Karaethon Cycle in the Old Tongue and several translations and many rulers have read it, as well."

 

Because of that, you only half answered my question. And even your answer is in doubt because you just listed a bunch of books. I still am in doubt that "every Aes Sedai has read the Karaethon Cycle." Though, even if they had, I still doubt that most of them have any knowledge of it as Moiraine has to go to another Aes Sedai who has studied it to ask her about it. Though, that's an argument that you only implicitly touch on, and so I'm not going to get into it.

 

After you only half answered my question, RAW responded to you. You responded to him saying that you weren't talking to him you responding to something I said. Which makes perfect sense.

 

And then I responded repeating my initial question.

[Kaznen]

Okay, just making sure.

[Elgee]

In NS, tGH, tDR, tFoH, LoC, KoD, BWB.  Every book that talks about AS training.

 

Quotes would be helpful.  I don't seem to recall any classes on the Old Tongue being described.

 

Here we go, RAW  ;D

 

NS, Chapter 2, pg 32:

 

Moiraine, though, had received the education expected of a noblewoman, everything from history to the Old Tongue, which she spoke and read well enough that she had been excused classes in it. The daughter of a Tairen fisherman, Siuan arrived barely able to read or do more than the simplest arithmetic, but she had soaked her lessons in like sand soaking up water. She taught the Old Tongue to novices, now. At least the beginning classes.

[Roxinos]

Alright, that answers one of RAW's question. It still doesn't answer his other and mine.

 

We both would like to know where Kaz gets the idea that every Aes Sedai has read the Karaethon Cycle and that many rulers have read it as well.

[Elgee]

He extrac ... extrapu ... he thumb-sucked it.

[Roxinos]

...Extrapolate? Is that the word you were lookin' for?

 

Yeah, extrapolated it from his ass, maybe.

[water_seeker]

Actually,

 

Dragon, Prophecies of the:  Little known, and seldom spoken of, the Prophecies, given in The Karaethon Cycle...

Glossary, tGH

 

It would seem that very few people know of the Prophecies based on this.  Granted, in LoC it does say, "Little known except among the well-educated..."

 

Given what we see from them though, they don't know jack about what's going on.

[Elgee]

...Extrapolate? Is that the word you were lookin' for?

 

Yeah, extrapolated it from his ass, maybe.

 

Thank you, Roxinos ... *innocent face*

 

Mind you, I don't think Kaz is stretching the boundaries with that assumption. Given all the things AS study, the Karaethon Cycle seems quite a likely subject matter. They might not make an indepth study of it, but a basic Intro to KC 101 seems likely. Do YOU remember in detail all the stuff they forcefed you in primary/junior school?

[Roxinos]

It seems likely, yes. I will not deny that. However, he states it as a fact rather than as a likely assumption. Which is where my problem lies.

 

And then there is the implication that they are all pretty knowledgeable in it. But I wouldn't argue against that point because he never explicitly stated it.

[Eleint]

For the record, in The Great Hunt, Adeleas mentions she 'knows enough to know they can't still the Dragon Reborn, but have to hold him till the Last Battle', and so on.  The way it reads, the implication is it's not surprising that others might not know a lot about the Prophecies.

 

And Adeleas is 'almost part Brown'.  It really seems to imply the Average Aes Sedai doesn't study the Prophecies of the Dragon as a matter of course.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Elgee ... Moiraine recieved that education before she went to the Tower, as a nobleman.  Mat comments/thinks later, in TSR if I'm not mistaken, that most nobleman just get enough to fake their way along.

 

Moiraine, like Thom, is exceptional.

[Roxinos]

The part Elgee meant to highlight was "...she had been excused classes in it."

 

"It" being the Old Tongue. So yes, I'd say that definitively proves that learning the Old Tongue, even if it's just a basic understanding of it, is part of the Aes Sedai training.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm ... yes, I did miss that part.

 

Free chocolate for Elgee!

[Elgee]

*Gobbles chocolate and feels all spethul*  ;D

 

I also meant to underline the bit about Siuan teaching the Old Tongue to novices - just a bit of added confirmation.

[Majsju]

If we bring this back to where the thread started, and Verins knowledge.

 

We have an extremely intelligent Brown sister. Now, if she learned that the Dragon would be reborn, and that quite soon, what do you think her first instinct would be? Perhaps head to the library, pull out the best copy of the prophecies she could find, and start researching?

 

There is absolutely no need to try to toss some secret Ajah into the mix to find an answer to Verins actions and knowledge.

[Kaznen]

I never said every AS studies the KC, just read it.  

 

During the 16th century in England grammer schools taught latin by having the students read Roman plays.

 

The plays were the kind written for the Roman Patricians so they had proper grammer and sentence structure as well.

 

The KC is one of the best presevered documents written in the Old Tounge.  And it is safe to assume that it is written with proper grammer.  So when teaching the novices the old tounge it would be a good source to use.

 

But as for studying it, I already said that at most some AS may have made a hobby of it, but they had other stuff that was more important.  It was the hidden ajah that studied and discussed the KC, but they didn't exactly meet every Monday evening but maybe once or twice a year, if that.

[Roxinos]

I never said every AS studies the KC, just read it. 

 

And I still ask you where you got that idea. You can assume they have all you want. That seems to be what you're doing after all, just assuming that they all have because it makes sense that it would be included in their teachings for learning the Old Tongue. Just try not to use it even as implicit support for the idea that Aes Sedai even have implicit knowledge of the Karaethon Cycle.

 

I'm not even going to respond to your hidden Ajah point. I'll let someone like RAW do that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I already did, and it is silly.

[Roxinos]

I bet. Which is why I didn't bother to read the first post of this thread. Which is why I didn't bother to respond in my previous post.

[Kaznen]

One of the purposes of the AS is to remind the world that the DO is still there and the Dragon will be reborn.  Moraine told Rand that in tFoH.  During Rand's testing in Rhudien when the Aiel walked in on the AS argument they were trying to figure out when the Dragon would be reborn.  The latter was happening right when the Breaking of the World had started.

 

Because this has been a major focus for Aes Sedai since the breaking, before the White Tower even it would be stupid to think that not all of the AS have read the Document that describes what will happen after the Dragon is reborn.

 

Which is why I didn't bother to read the first post of this thread.

So reading and responding to all your post was a waste of time.  A mistake I will not repeat.

[Roxinos]

Because this has been a major focus for Aes Sedai since the breaking, before the White Tower even it would be stupid to think that not all of the AS have read the Document that describes what will happen after the Dragon is reborn.

 

Aes Sedai are notorious for being completely useless in actually accomplishing their missions. See the thread titled "Your favourite ajah?" for the perfect explanation for how useless Aes Sedai are.

 

And there is a large difference between what would be smart to do, and actually having evidence for the assertion that all Aes Sedai have read the Karaethon Cycle. And this post of yours tells me that you have no evidence within the books to suggest that all Aes Sedai have read the Karaethon Cycle.

 

So reading and responding to all your post was a waste of time.  A mistake I will not repeat.

 

Nope. Because these posts are not referring to your initial post. If they were, I'd just dismiss them as quickly as I dismissed your initial post.

[Dark Justice]

 

Nope. Because these posts are not referring to your initial post. If they were, I'd just dismiss them as quickly as I dismissed your initial post.

 

;D

[luftstark]

I think that not all AS read the KC coz... it's prob not tought to novices or accepted (at least we have no hint of such classes). And AS do as they pleased ... so just the ones who are really interested in the subject would go grab a copy and read it.

 

Back to the secret Ajah.

 

Great idea man.. it would be nice if it was what RJ had made up. If there was only one hint of it in Verin's POV... hehe

 

I still think that Verin has some sort of Corelen (sp?) Dream Diary and some of the dreams are about the DR or the KC or the Horn of Valere.

[zanotam]

It seems to me that the hidden ajah theory may be on the right track, but not necessarily right. The existence of secret groups of Aes Sedai, potentially even across ajahs, throughout history should be thought of as a given. The tower is massive, it holds many secrets, and occasionally a group of people find something interesting, but it would seem inevitable they would die out and eventually someone else would find the thing, plus possibly notes left behind, and restart it. There are no doubt many groups relating to this, you've got the knitting circle which the Aes Sedai knew about, but didn't understand the extent of presumably, but it does seem likely some of them would, you have the occasional Sea Folk Aes Sedai who obviously would work together to hide certain secrets, and the various hidden techniques and weaves among the Aes Sedai by the time Rand is born probably amount to more than the known ones. Also, my understanding is the that the KC is simply a compilation of a bunch of ancient foretellings and as evidenced by the lack of knowledge about the Aiel prophecies, the Seafolk ones, etc. they are not necessarily related. They are apparently well known and common enough that worldwide (Based on evidence from the Seanchan and the lands beyond the Aiel Waste) basically everyone knows what the Dragon Reborn will do and who he will be, but it would also make sense that people would continue to foretell things and so in different lands different version of the prophecies would exist and grow, possibly even replacing the KC entirely (if it existed there in the first place).