The New Novices

[Charlz Guybon]

The Salidar Aes Sedai have a thousand novices with them, some of them very strong. Once Egwene is raised do you think their promotion to Accepted and Aes Sedai will be rushed, or will they take their time? We don't have much time left but they'll be rather useless as novices with no autonomy.

[Elgee]

I've been wondering along the same lines. Would be a bit anticlimatic to have all those lovely strong novices, and they're stuck in the Tower doing chores whilst TG is happening  :P

[RobertAlexWillis]

On the contrary, they will be extraordinarily useful as novices after being taught just one skill: linking.

 

I doubt Egwene will want to make unusual promotions the norm; she'll be coalition building, which will include placating Sisters willing to follow her in the Tower, who will no doubt want Aes Sedai tradition upheld.  So those Novices will have to go through the time-honored process like everyone else.

[Kaznen]

When the Trollocs start pouring South the AS will start rushing novices and accepted into testing, like they did during the Trolloc Wars.  The OP doesn't make AS invincible and their numbers will be thinned and replacements needed.

[Lord Nik]

I think they will be linking with the full AS. So when TG comes around have 12 novices and have an AS leading the circle. Repeat. If they run out of AS to lead the "novice" circles start giving some accepted a shot.

 

I wonder how many circles will get lead by DF's? That could be troublesome.

 

Or will the Great Cleansing happen before TG

[RobertAlexWillis]

When the Trollocs start pouring South the AS will start rushing novices and accepted into testing, like they did during the Trolloc Wars.

 

The Trolloc Wars lasted for over three hundred years.  So, rushing the novices and Accepted along in those circumstances is far different than an instantaneous mass promotion.

 

Teach them to link, and thereby make the experienced Sisters much, much stronger, instantly.

 

The OP doesn't make AS invincible and their numbers will be thinned and replacements needed.

 

True ... but not terribly relevant.  Promoting someone doesn't make them instantly better able to fight.  If you just -poof- promote the novices to Accepted, they don't get new special abilities.

 

There is absolutely zero benefit to simply promoting them.

 

I wonder how many circles will get lead by DF's? That could be troublesome.

 

Or will the Great Cleansing happen before TG

 

That could be a real problem ... especially if it turns out that the Black Ajah gets exposed immediately prior to or in the very opening stages of Tarmon Gai'don.  Once the novices are locked in a circle, they can't get out unless the one leading it lets them out.

 

As a final note, the presence of bonded Asha'man in the Tower would allow the circles to be extended far beyond 13.  However, those Asha'man are likely to be heavy with Darkfriends, and there are more Black Ajah among the Red than any other Ajah.

 

That could get very messy.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

 

I doubt Egwene will want to make unusual promotions the norm; she'll be coalition building, which will include placating Sisters willing to follow her in the Tower, who will no doubt want Aes Sedai tradition upheld.  So those Novices will have to go through the time-honored process like everyone else.

I expect Egwene to be in a very strong position and to be violating custom right and left.

[Charlz Guybon]

When the Trollocs start pouring South the AS will start rushing novices and accepted into testing, like they did during the Trolloc Wars.

 

The Trolloc Wars lasted for over three hundred years.  So, rushing the novices and Accepted along in those circumstances is far different than an instantaneous mass promotion.

 

Teach them to link, and thereby make the experienced Sisters much, much stronger, instantly.

 

The OP doesn't make AS invincible and their numbers will be thinned and replacements needed.

 

True ... but not terribly relevant.  Promoting someone doesn't make them instantly better able to fight.  If you just -poof- promote the novices to Accepted, they don't get new special abilities.

 

There is absolutely zero benefit to simply promoting them.

 

 

Sharina and Bode, and maybe some other strong novices could be very useful on their own.

[Eleint]

I daresay eventually it'll end up with a medium between the Black Tower and the White Tower.  The Black Tower has lots of deaths due to forcing power growth, and so on while the White Tower doesn't.

 

However, the White Tower tends to keep characters back for flimsy reasons -- it seems to me that the length of Novice and Accepted-hood is more to instill the White Tower 'belief system' into the girls.  It's very similar to various historical methods used, actually.  Which makes sense as the WT is supposed to parallel various out-dated social institutions in history.

 

As for the LB, I think the linking thing is most likely.

[Elgee]

I don't see much of a difference between sending them out onto a dangerous battlefield as AS, or just as "linkers". During the Aiel War, the novices and Accepted were kept closely guarded.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those who are stronger in the OP get raised faster than those who are weaker? If one looks at the Wonder Girls, Siuan and Moiraine, etc - they all seemed to get raised much faster than the weaker ones.

 

Maybe the same will hold true for those very strong novices in the Rebel camp, once the Tower is reunited?

[Gentled Ben]

The wonder girls were exceptions, and while Siuan, Moiraine, and Elaida set records for how fast they were raised, there are stronger AS, like Cadsuane, who were not raised as quickly, so it may not be a general rule that stronger women are raised faster.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I expect Egwene to be in a very strong position and to be violating custom right and left.

 

On matters of importance, yes.

 

On matters of title?  No.  It would unnecessarily ruffle feathers when there is already a lot of very necessary ruffling to do.

 

Sharina and Bode, and maybe some other strong novices could be very useful on their own.

 

Quite possibly, but that usefulness would not be enhanced one whit by simply calling them Accepted.  If the situation is bad enough that random farmers have to beat their plowshares into swords (yes, I know it was a scythe in the prologue, I was indulging some symbolism) then it is much simpler to send novices into battle than to give unnecessary and pointless promotions.

 

Holding those titles back will provide a means of returning things to "normal" in a post Tarmon Gai'don world, without diminishing in any way the effectiveness of those called upon to fight.

 

I don't see much of a difference between sending them out onto a dangerous battlefield as AS, or just as "linkers".

 

The difference is that 1) linking provides protection from overdrawing (as novices would be more likely to do in a panicky battle) through creating a buffer, and 2) ensures that the person actually weaving is the most capable for battle in the group (the Green Ajah's chance to shine).  It will also reduce the number of "friendly fire" incidents ... even the Wondergirls nearly toasted themselves a couple of times with accidents, and they've been so lucky its hard to believe they aren't ta'veren.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those who are stronger in the OP get raised faster than those who are weaker? If one looks at the Wonder Girls, Siuan and Moiraine, etc - they all seemed to get raised much faster than the weaker ones.

 

Comparing this mass of novices to the Wondergirls, or even Moiraine and Siuan, is not really a good idea.  Those are exceptional people, even by Aes Sedai standards.

 

Maybe the same will hold true for those very strong novices in the Rebel camp, once the Tower is reunited?

 

Of course, they will likely be allowed to advance as fast as they can safely.  But they will still have to go through the rings to become Accepted, and pass the test and take the Oaths to become Aes Sedai.

 

There isn't likely to be time for that before Tarmon Gai'don.

[Charlz Guybon]

I expect Egwene to be in a very strong position and to be violating custom right and left.

 

On matters of importance, yes.

 

On matters of title?  No.  It would unnecessarily ruffle feathers when there is already a lot of very necessary ruffling to do.

 

I think it's quite important, look how quickly the Ashaman and the Damane become useful compared to the Aes Sedai. Their training and subsequent promotion should be greatly accelerated.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The training is important, not the title.  And Egwene would never accept the Asha'man's rate of losses, or employ damane training methods.

[Kaznen]

During the Trolloc Wars deciding when to test a girl to be raised was based more on strength of OP rather then strength of character, as the deciding factor has been since.

 

I'm not saying the novices won't be tested, I'm saying deciding if and when a novice is tested will be determined skill with the OP instead of if she knows the trade relations between Shiota and Fergansea and their impacts leading to the Second War of the Dragon.

 

I don't see them going out into the field as OP batteries.  It is one thing when there are preparations in place if the Forsaken attack them at home but out in the field is to dangerous if their AS gets killed, and AS will get killed.  

[Luckers]

In large part I agree with Robert--it's possible that some, like Sharina or Bode would have their own tasks, achieve their own things, but I doubt they will be fast-tracked to sisterhood.

 

During the Trolloc Wars deciding when to test a girl to be raised was based more on strength of OP rather then strength of character, as the deciding factor has been since

 

What basis do you have for that?

 

I'm not saying the novices won't be tested, I'm saying deciding if and when a novice is tested will be determined skill with the OP instead of if she knows the trade relations between Shiota and Fergansea and their impacts leading to the Second War of the Dragon.

 

Neither factors matter--even Accepted won't be acting on their own. If the Aes Sedai feel the need to use the strength of their novices it will be as OP batteries being controlled by experienced Aes Sedai, not as individuals. There are, as i stated above, a few possible exceptions, but they are just that--exceptions.

 

I don't see them going out into the field as OP batteries.  It is one thing when there are preparations in place if the Forsaken attack them at home but out in the field is to dangerous if their AS gets killed, and AS will get killed. 

 

Aes Sedai might as easily be killed in a Forsaken attack--fighting this war is fighting this war. They will use what they need to.

 

And I don't see how your point make sense--they would be unwilling to place these unexperienced women as OP batteries in case the Aes Sedai guiding the circle was killed and they'd be forced to fight on their own--but they'd be willing to raise these unexperienced women so they can fight on their own (without any new experiences).

 

 

[live.fast]

I wonder how many circles will get lead by DF's? That could be troublesome.

 

Or will the Great Cleansing happen before TG

 

That could be a real problem ... especially if it turns out that the Black Ajah gets exposed immediately prior to or in the very opening stages of Tarmon Gai'don.  Once the novices are locked in a circle, they can't get out unless the one leading it lets them out.

 

As a final note, the presence of bonded Asha'man in the Tower would allow the circles to be extended far beyond 13.  However, those Asha'man are likely to be heavy with Darkfriends, and there are more Black Ajah among the Red than any other Ajah.

 

That could get very messy.

 

 

I think Taim's Asha'man with the Dragons are the DFs only, and he said the Aes Sedai couldn't bond/link with them, at the end of last book, right?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think Taim's Asha'man with the Dragons are the DFs only, and he said the Aes Sedai couldn't bond/link with them, at the end of last book, right?

 

Nope.  You are correct that the Darkfriends in the Black Tower (or at least, the vast majority of them) are likely to be found within Taim's special cabal.  But Taim did not exempt them from being bonded.  He said, "Accept 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them."

 

He gave the Aes Sedai permission to bond any Asha'man who would agree to be bonded, up to 51 of them.  I imagine that several of Taim's cabal, some of those he is surest of, will be instructed to be agreeable.

[Kaznen]

In large part I agree with Robert--it's possible that some, like Sharina or Bode would have their own tasks, achieve their own things, but I doubt they will be fast-tracked to sisterhood.

 

During the Trolloc Wars deciding when to test a girl to be raised was based more on strength of OP rather then strength of character, as the deciding factor has been since

 

What basis do you have for that?

 

I CoS, at Elayne's "trial" after her and Nyneave find the Kin.  In tFoH When Brigdette(?) was telling Elayne about the last accepted who bonded a warder.  In the BWB when it talked about AS and the Trolloc Wars.  And in tDR when Egwene was being tested, I believe Sheriam comment about training during the Trolloc Wars.  And I think there may have been a few comments in NS, tSR, and PoD.  The jist is even though they were fast tracking girls to sisterhood they still had standards that needed to be met.

 

I don't see them going out into the field as OP batteries.  It is one thing when there are preparations in place if the Forsaken attack them at home but out in the field is to dangerous if their AS gets killed, and AS will get killed.   

 

Aes Sedai might as easily be killed in a Forsaken attack--fighting this war is fighting this war. They will use what they need to.

 

And I don't see how your point make sense--they would be unwilling to place these unexperienced women as OP batteries in case the Aes Sedai guiding the circle was killed and they'd be forced to fight on their own--but they'd be willing to raise these unexperienced women so they can fight on their own (without any new experiences).

 

You mentioned Bode, good because she has faced trollocs.  And when she face the trollocs she was screaming in a panic while she hacked at its face while it dangled her by her braid.  If she was being tested for the shawl she would have failed because she panicced.  If the AS controling the novices and accepted in the field dies the non-sisters become a lethal liablity because they weren't hardened through training to face battle.  So now you have these scared women tossing the power everywhere in a panic.

 

It goes back to when Egwene was talking about doing away with the tests.  Elayne said they have nothing to do with channeling but test the meddle of the channeler.  If a channler failed the test in the Trolloc Wars she was still thrown out from the tower on her butt.  She wasn't sent to a "wilder corps." to help the war effort.

 

Without the testing their is no way to know how the non-sisters will act without an AS.  Just look at when the accepted went to take the rolls in NS.  One of the AS told Moraine and Suiane that half of them forgot stuff they needed.  No think of what would happen if those accpeted had been marched to war.

[ROB_88]

i'm reviving this thread by asking about Nynaeve.

i've never understood why she was rushed to Accepted in just a day or two.

she was very strong but she can't use the Power except when she's mad, that block is alone enough to set her back a few years before she should go through the rings.

[Elgee]

Plus, she was woefully ignorant and untamed.

[CUBAREY]

i'm reviving this thread by asking about Nynaeve.

i've never understood why she was rushed to Accepted in just a day or two.

she was very strong but she can't use the Power except when she's mad, that block is alone enough to set her back a few years before she should go through the rings.

 

Her Age and position. Novices tend to come in at age 14 and raised in about 10 years (or younger). Nyneave was already in her midtwenties and a village wisdom to boot. Novice training seems to be premised on forcing nieve and impressionable teenagers into roles by fear and discipline. This simply would not have worked with a 20 something woman not only used to thinking for herself but ordering others about. To the extent that her potential powers necessitated breaking the rules and admitting her into the White Tower at her advanced aged it also necessitated that she be put in a position where she had some chance of succeeding.

 

 

You mentioned Bode, good because she has faced trollocs.  And when she face the trollocs she was screaming in a panic while she hacked at its face while it dangled her by her braid.  If she was being tested for the shawl she would have failed because she panicced.

 

A small point but Bode did not panic, she showed fear, extreme fear but she did not panic. She continued hacking at the trollic even though she was dangling from her braid and was screaming. You make the same mistake that Elayne and Nyneave made when they considered themselves cowards for feeling fear while fighting the black sisters and/or Moggy. Frankly, fear, even extreme fear at the sight of impossible odds is not cowardice or panic it is intelligence. If Bode or the wondergirls had stopped fighting and tried to run away then they could be said to have paniced but continuing to fight in the face of reasonable fear is the definition of courage.

[a5m]

I think Taim's Asha'man with the Dragons are the DFs only, and he said the Aes Sedai couldn't bond/link with them, at the end of last book, right?

 

Nope.  You are correct that the Darkfriends in the Black Tower (or at least, the vast majority of them) are likely to be found within Taim's special cabal.  But Taim did not exempt them from being bonded.  He said, "Accept 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them."

 

I believe he also said "No one with a Dragon on his collar". I also believe Logan said "Everyone with a Dragon is part of Taim's club except for me". (Or something like that...)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I believe he also said "No one with a Dragon on his collar". I also believe Logan said "Everyone with a Dragon is part of Taim's club except for me". (Or something like that...)

 

I believe you are wrong.  I believe that I quoted what he said.  Read the book.

[luftstark]

I believe he also said "No one with a Dragon on his collar". I also believe Logan said "Everyone with a Dragon is part of Taim's club except for me". (Or something like that...)

 

I believe you are wrong.  I believe that I quoted what he said.  Read the book.

 

RAW is right. There are 2 different situations:

 

1- Rand allowed the Salidar AS to bound 47 Asha'man. He felt that he needed to repay them for the 51 AS bounded by Taim, Logan and the others. He sent a Bounded Asha'man to their camp and it was him who voiced the permission, with the condition that no one with the dragon in the collar. (don't have the quote here, but it's on chapter 23 of KoD)

 

2- At the epilogue of KoD Pevara and Tarna went to the Black Tower in order to negotiate the bounding of Asha'man as Warders. Taim, supposelly by not knowing that there were already 4 bounded Asha'man with Rand, let them bound 51 Asha'man, with consent. But in that scene there was nothing about havin' the Dragon in the Collar.