How did Moghedien know who Birgitte was?

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm rereading "The Fires of Heaven" and I don't understand how she can possibly know that Birgitte was Teadra, the women who foiled her plan to bring down Lews Therin in the War of Power. Birgitte lived more than 2,000 years later and who knows how many lives during those two millenia. And she's been dead for a thousand years. How could she know? ???

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is something of a mystery.  The only thing I can think of is that Tel'aran'rhiod was much better understood in the Age of Legends, and Moghedien claims to understand it even better than Lanfear.  Since the Heroes are tied to the Wheel, and chill in Tel'aran'rhiod when they're out of the body, Moghedien might have been able to detect that connection somehow.

 

If I remember correctly (and I can't find it now so I'm not saying this for sure) Birgitte herself didn't know exactly how Moghedien had discovered her identity.

[Charlz Guybon]

That is something of a mystery.  The only thing I can think of is that Tel'aran'rhiod was much better understood in the Age of Legends, and Moghedien claims to understand it even better than Lanfear.  Since the Heroes are tied to the Wheel, and chill in Tel'aran'rhiod when they're out of the body, Moghedien might have been able to detect that connection somehow.

 

If I remember correctly (and I can't find it now so I'm not saying this for sure) Birgitte herself didn't know exactly how Moghedien had discovered her identity.

They didn't believe in the Horn of Valer though, how could they know about the heroes?

[Kaznen]

That is something of a mystery.  The only thing I can think of is that Tel'aran'rhiod was much better understood in the Age of Legends, and Moghedien claims to understand it even better than Lanfear.  Since the Heroes are tied to the Wheel, and chill in Tel'aran'rhiod when they're out of the body, Moghedien might have been able to detect that connection somehow.

 

If I remember correctly (and I can't find it now so I'm not saying this for sure) Birgitte herself didn't know exactly how Moghedien had discovered her identity.

They didn't believe in the Horn of Valer though, how could they know about the heroes?

RJ said at the beginning of the war they believe in the horn, but after a while they did but at that time it was lost.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They didn't believe in the Horn of Valer though, how could they know about the heroes?

 

Perhaps Moghedien simply detected a connection between Teadra's soul and Tel'aran'rhiod, and extrapolated from there.  She may have known more about the Horn than was commonly believed.  But, as I said, it is something of a mystery.

[Nasty Butler]

Well, The Forsaken didn't quite get to see the events separating the 3000 years they were sealed up, so, since Birgitte was one of her worst enemies before being sealed up, it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise that she recognizes her after being freed since Birgitte was one of the only people she actually knew at that time.  The only memories Moghedien has of the world are from the AoL, and it would be logical that she would recognize Birgitte on sight since she was there too.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Birgitte, in Tel'aran'rhiod, wouldn't look like Teadra, her incarnation in the Age of Legends.  A soul's different incarnations do not look the same, physically.  Take Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al'Thor, for example.  So, it isn't as simple as "recognizing on sight".

[ROB_88]

wait, is the question about how she recognised her now or how she recognised her back in AOL?

[AmbeRebmA]

Actually that's an interesting point, why does she want people to call her Birgitte? Has she ever mentioned that? And before she started losing her memories, what Teadra her oldest memory?

[Mik]

I'm rereading "The Fires of Heaven" and I don't understand how she can possibly know that Birgitte was Teadra, the women who foiled her plan to bring down Lews Therin in the War of Power. Birgitte lived more than 2,000 years later and who knows how many lives during those two millenia. And she's been dead for a thousand years. How could she know?

Like RobertAlexWillis mentioned, it's a mystery.

 

It becomes even more mysterious actually, because that text you are refering to heavily implies that Moghedien knew that Teadra was the hero Birgitte around the time when Teadra foiled Moghediens plans to imprison Lews Therin.

Moghedien didn't find out during her spying in TAR after she was released from the Bore.

She knew Teadra was Birgitte around the same time when her plan failed.

 

Maybe looking at the bigger picture helps a bit.

 

First some facts:

1; Teadra herself didn't know she was the Hero Birgitte spun out by the Wheel. (LoC, Chapter 40)

2; This time (meaning this Third Age) is the first time ever that Birgitte wasn't spun out in the normal way. (LoC, Chapter 40)

3; The Horn of Valere was known in the AoL and was lost before the War of Shadows started. (Robert Jordan Q&A, Tor website)

4; The Horn's function was known in the AoL, although that function was considered "a sort of myth by most people". (Robert Jordan Q&A, Tor website)

 

Sidenote on point 4;

That whole Horn/AoL story is pretty wierd. Even if the function of the Horn was considered 'a sort of myth by most people', it wouldn't have hurt just to blow the Horn and bust the myth...right?

I mean... that is what horns are for: you blow them and they produce a sound!

RJ compared using the Horn to saccing a white bull to Jupiter, but the comparison is way, way off base IMO.

Second, 'most people not believing' leaves room for plenty and plenty of people do believing in the legend surounding the Horn. Ah well... like I said.. sidenote. Rj made it up, so we have to go with it.

 

5; Moghedien went over to the Shadow long before the War of Power began, but kept that a secret until the war had been raging for years. (TWoRJTWoT, Moghedien)

6; During that time Moghedien was a spy, having secured a medium-level position in Lews Therin’s command structure. (TWoRJTWoT, Moghedien)

7; It was said Moghedien could remember a slight until the Wheel of Time stopped turning. (TWoRJTWoT, Moghedien)

8; It is known that Moghedien headed a very effective intelligence and sabotage network, which was under her control before the War started. (TWoRJTWoT, Moghedien)

9; Moghedien's greatest asset was her ability within TAR. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear’s. (TWoRJTWoT, Moghedien)

 

Now let's speculate about how Moghedien found out.

 

Point 7 tells us Moghedien has an excellent memory and that she would never forget the smallest insult or something that would feel similar to her.. ever. One can immagine the time and energy she would put into getting back at the person who messed up (one of) her most important plans ever. (Capturing the Dragon would have surely set her above the other Chosen)

Moghedien managed to run a very effective and actively sabotaging spy network at the center of power of the enemy that went unnoticed for a long long time (point 5, 6 & 8 ). You can't pull that off unless you're very smart and cunning.

 

We know Teadra died before Moghy could punish her. (so her Soul went back to TAR)

We know from Egwene's PoV that she can single out the dreams of people she knows or has an interest in.

We know that in TAR 'need' is a powerful way of finding what you are looking for.

We also know that Moghedien was (and still is) top dog in TAR. If TAR holds secrets for Moghedien, no other human being knows about it.

 

So, she never forgets, she's smart and she knew most about the place where Heroes of the Horn dwell in-between lives. The Horn of Valere was a known legendary artifact and it's function was known as well, but few believed the stories surounding the Horn. Legends surrounding the Horn probably told of a woman with perfect aim.

 

Teadra foiled Moghediens well laid trap with a lot of courage and an uncanny aim perhaps? (yes, this is pure speculation)

 

Add all of the above up, and the ingredients (motive, means, etc) are there... however unlikely the recipe.

 

Also, let's not forget that Hawkwing (and even Birgitte herself + other heroes) recongnise Lews Therin in Rand in mere seconds without Rand doing a thing (except denying he is the Dragon)

 

It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close enough for a comparison mayhaps..?

 

Hope this helped & cheerio,

Mik

 

 

P.S:

They didn't believe in the Horn of Valer though, how could they know about the heroes?

 

Perhaps Moghedien simply detected a connection between Teadra's soul and Tel'aran'rhiod, and extrapolated from there.  She may have known more about the Horn than was commonly believed.  But, as I said, it is something of a mystery.

(posted when I was typing my reply)

See above; MOST didn't believe in the legends surounding the Horn. But the Horn was around. And the stories must have been around for most to believe the Horns function a myth maybe?

 

Ah well.. ???

 

[water_seeker]

I believe it'd be easier to use BWB (big white book) rather than TWoRJTWoT  >.<... 

 

Anyway, Moggy's ability to recognize Birgitte would be similar to Artur Hawkwing recognizing LTT when he See's Rand towards the end of tGH.  Actually, THAT recognition poses more of a problem for me than the original problem of this post.  At least with Moggy/Birgitte we know something of their history together.  Of course with LTT/hawkwing there is the tied to the horn connection...

 

Actually, it is very possible that just as in the prologue to tEotW where Ishy tells LTT that their struggle hasn't gone on for ten years but since time began, Moggy has some understanding of her relationship with Birgitte over the course of history.  Tie that in with the fact that the forsaken were trapped at Shayul Ghul in various degrees* and it wouldn't be too difficult to see how Moggy could make the connection between the incarnation of Birgitte she knows and the incarnation that goes by the name Birgitte. 

 

*The seal on the bore trapped the Dark One completely and the forsaken to degrees.  Ishy was able to slip out at times and manipulate the world directly, it wouldn't be much of a stretch at all to think that Moggy at least had some realization of what was going on during history even if she couldn't interact with events.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Anyway, Moggy's ability to recognize Birgitte would be similar to Artur Hawkwing recognizing LTT when he See's Rand towards the end of tGH.  Actually, THAT recognition poses more of a problem for me than the original problem of this post.  At least with Moggy/Birgitte we know something of their history together.  Of course with LTT/hawkwing there is the tied to the horn connection...

 

Yes, you kind of refuted your own point by the end of that paragraph.  Hawkwing recognized Rand as the Dragon because of their shared connection to the Wheel.  Moghedien and Birgitte do not share that.

 

Actually, it is very possible that just as in the prologue to tEotW where Ishy tells LTT that their struggle hasn't gone on for ten years but since time began, Moggy has some understanding of her relationship with Birgitte over the course of history.  Tie that in with the fact that the forsaken were trapped at Shayul Ghul in various degrees* and it wouldn't be too difficult to see how Moggy could make the connection between the incarnation of Birgitte she knows and the incarnation that goes by the name Birgitte. 

 

*The seal on the bore trapped the Dark One completely and the forsaken to degrees.  Ishy was able to slip out at times and manipulate the world directly, it wouldn't be much of a stretch at all to think that Moggy at least had some realization of what was going on during history even if she couldn't interact with events.

 

Ishy was the only one who could slip in and out.  Aginor and Balthamel could percieve the world, but all three of them suffered from the ravages of time.  Moghedien, like Lanfear and the rest, was bound too deeply to touch or even see the Pattern, but also was unaffected by time (hence, her appearance is unchanged).

[Mik]

I believe it'd be easier to use BWB (big white book) rather than TWoRJTWoT  >.<... 

You didn't have to type it and you understood what I meant. What's your point? BWB... fine.. big whoop.

 

Actually, it is very possible that just as in the prologue to tEotW where Ishy tells LTT that their struggle hasn't gone on for ten years but since time began, Moggy has some understanding of her relationship with Birgitte over the course of history.  Tie that in with the fact that the forsaken were trapped at Shayul Ghul in various degrees* and it wouldn't be too difficult to see how Moggy could make the connection between the incarnation of Birgitte she knows and the incarnation that goes by the name Birgitte.

 

*The seal on the bore trapped the Dark One completely and the forsaken to degrees.  Ishy was able to slip out at times and manipulate the world directly, it wouldn't be much of a stretch at all to think that Moggy at least had some realization of what was going on during history even if she couldn't interact with events.

Reread the section Charlz means;

 

She [Nyn] and Elayne were scheming with Birgitte, were they? That was another she had reason to punish. Birgitte[as Teadra] had not even known who Moghedien was, so long ago, in the Age of Legends, when she foiled Moghedien’s finely wrought plan to lay Lews Therin by his heels. But Moghedien had known her. Only, Birgitte—Teadra, she had been then—had died before she could deal with her. Death was no punishment, no end, not when it meant living on here [in TAR].

Moghedien knew it was Birgitte before she was trapped in the Bore. Even if Moghedien was somehow aware of the world during her time trapped in the Bore, she already knew Teadra was the Hero Birgitte.

 

Besides, I think the reason that Ishamael was only partly trapped is because he was (and is) only partly human. A part of Ishamael was free because that part wasn't part of Creation anymore, but had more 'affiliation' with the essence of Shai'tan; The so called True Power of wich a portion -that we lovingly call the Taint- was on Creations side of the patch. (it's a long story, but I've sorta given up trying to make the willingly blind see what RJ has kept up his sleeve)

 

Aginor & Balthamel were near the surface of the patch on the Bore so they had some awareness of the world. But didn't time affect them somewhat..? (understatement) Yet, even those two were trapped for 3k years (where Ishy was not...wierd huh)

 

Moghedien is all woman like Aginor & Balthamel were all man. (TwtouoRJTWobakkasmoT - Forsaken section...or simply BWB)

All woman = All creation = All trapped.

Nowhere has Moghedien hinted at being able to see events unfold during her imprisonment. And nowhere do we get told of her getting new flesh or something similar.

 

Anyway, Moggy's ability to recognize Birgitte would be similar to Artur Hawkwing recognizing LTT when he See's Rand towards the end of tGH.  Actually, THAT recognition poses more of a problem for me than the original problem of this post.  At least with Moggy/Birgitte we know something of their history together.  Of course with LTT/hawkwing there is the tied to the horn connection...

What RAW said.

 

It's just one other instance where we can't really put our finger on why one character recognises another charcter. The Heroes recongnise Rand as Lews Therin (reborn) without us knowing exactly how.

 

The comparison is thin at best, but they share that.

 

Oh well,

Mik

[water_seeker]

believe it'd be easier to use BWB (big white book) rather than TWoRJTWoT  >.<... 

You didn't have to type it and you understood what I meant. What's your point? BWB... fine.. big whoop.

It took me a bit to figure it out though...and I was just trying to be nice and save you time on typing later...if i knew you'd cry about it, I would have kept quiet.

 

Besides, I think the reason that Ishamael was only partly trapped is because he was (and is) only partly human. A part of Ishamael was free because that part wasn't part of Creation anymore, but had more 'affiliation' with the essence of Shai'tan; The so called True Power of wich a portion -that we lovingly call the Taint- was on Creations side of the patch. (it's a long story, but I've sorta given up trying to make the willingly blind see what RJ has kept up his sleeve)

 

Were that the case, then the seal wouldn't have worked on the DO.

 

She [Nyn] and Elayne were scheming with Birgitte, were they? That was another she had reason to punish. Birgitte[as Teadra] had not even known who Moghedien was, so long ago, in the Age of Legends, when she foiled Moghedien’s finely wrought plan to lay Lews Therin by his heels. But Moghedien had known her. Only, Birgitte—Teadra, she had been then—had died before she could deal with her. Death was no punishment, no end, not when it meant living on here [in TAR].

 

OMG...you're absolutely right, and thank you for posting that quote, I should have read the section.  Of course Moggy knew the incarnation of Birgitte in AoL and the incarnation of Birgitte didn't know Moggy.  Moggy kept to the shadows, she worked in secret, but Birgitte/Teadra was a hero and well known.

 

Fast forward to after Moggy gets out of the Bore.  She must know the lore of the Horn whether she believes it or not, and she must be HOPING that it's true.  She knows TAR better than anyone.  She makes it her personal mission to search for and destroy the one who ruined her plans in the AoL no matter what incarnation that person is in.  Conversely, Birgitte is currently a creature of TAR till she is spun out so she can avoid Moggy, which she does till the wonder-girls get involved.

 

But no matter how she does it, Moggy recognizes the Birgitte in TAR as the one who messed up her plans...where is the mystery?

[Gentled Ben]

In the fact that Teadra and Birgitte probably look nothing alike.