Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters?

[Jethro]

She also, with an angreal and ter'angreal directly designed to aid in a fight with the One Power, barely survived against a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal

 

Thats what I was referring to. You keep mentioning that Cyndane is weaker than she was, and that is of no importance in this debate at all. The fact that Cyndane still won despite the reduction is of no importance. Anything to do with Lanfear doesnt apply to this topic because she no longer exists.

 

Why would Rand say that? He's convinced he's going to die, that Alivia will help him do that. He has no intentions to 'come back'. That's why she's so focussed on Alivia to begin with

 

Rand has the intention of surviving the Last Battle. Since he knows he must die to live, and that Alivia will help him die, then he could easily use those facts to convince Nynaeve to give up the angreal.

 

EDIT for a question. Are Moghedien and Nynaeve on par with each other, power level wise? And does anyone know how Moghedien compares to Graendal?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You keep mentioning that Cyndane is weaker than she was, and that is of no importance in this debate at all. The fact that Cyndane still won despite the reduction is of no importance. Anything to do with Lanfear doesnt apply to this topic because she no longer exists.

 

You do know that Cyndane really is Lanfear, right?  She lost none of her skill, or any of her memories, and is still the strongest female Forsaken in terms of raw power.

 

Rand has the intention of surviving the Last Battle. Since he knows he must die to live, and that Alivia will help him die, then he could easily use those facts to convince Nynaeve to give up the angreal

 

Nynaeve already knows that Rand trusts Alivia, and that Alivia will "help" Rand die.  Her response to that was a sniff, followed by the thought, and I quote:

 

As if any man knew what was good for him.

 

KoD ch 20

 

Rand's intentions alone will not convince Nynaeve.  Cadsuane got her to give it up at the Cleansing.

 

Are Moghedien and Nynaeve on par with each other, power level wise? And does anyone know how Moghedien compares to Graendal?

 

Considering the results in Tanchico, and the fact that Nynaeve has increased in her strength in the Power since then, she is probably stronger than Moghedien now, in terms of raw power (which doesn't mean nearly as much as people think).

 

Graendal is the second strongest woman, so it is probably Graendal>Nynaeve>Moghedien, in terms of raw strength.  Which I again say, is less important than many other factors.

[Jethro]

You do know that Cyndane really is Lanfear, right?  She lost none of her skill, or any of her memories, and is still the strongest female Forsaken in terms of raw power.

 

You do know that Lanfear no longer exists as Lanfear, right? So whatever strength she had will never ever affect Cyndane in any battle. Why does the fact that Cyndane is weaker come into any possible discussion on Cyndane squaring up to someone?

 

Graendal is the second strongest woman, so it is probably Graendal>Nynaeve>Moghedien, in terms of raw strength.  Which I again say, is less important than many other factors

 

Okay lets look at something here. All the Chosen Rand has fought have all been "strong, perhaps as strong as Rand hismelf" while still having a difference between each other. The same goes for the women except for Lanfear in her original body. How much stronger than Moghedien would you say Graendal is? Moderately? Considerably? Going off your post saying Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien so late in the series, and the fact that so late on it is noted that Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, then I personally would say theres not much at all seperating Alivia and Graendal on power levels. Alivia has spent 400 years using the Power as a weapon; I dont think its much of a stretch in thinking Alivias has mastered using the Power as a weapon on the same level that Graendal might have.

[Hallow]

Going off your post saying Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien so late in the series, and the fact that so late on it is noted that Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, then I personally would say theres not much at all seperating Alivia and Graendal on power levels. Alivia has spent 400 years using the Power as a weapon; I dont think its much of a stretch in thinking Alivias has mastered using the Power as a weapon on the same level that Graendal might have.

 

Yes, she has significant experience of using the power as a weapon against armies and other damane, this is not like 1v1 duels with the power that a showdown between 2 channelers would come down to.w

[Shard]

I would say they are in different areas, Aliva used it as a direct weapon ie Explosions, fire, and the like. While Grendal's focus has always been on manipulating and controlling the mind. So there is a difference in skill sets.

[mnwhiterose]

how about we look at the power like knife skills.  A person can use a knife to heal (doctors), to hurt (knife fighters) or to cook (chefs).  Each person is skilled in their own separate use of knives. The same can be applied to Nynaeve (healing), Graendal (compulsion and finer uses for power) or Alivia (killing).  Yes, each of them has had experience in the other areas, but a knife fighter would be stonger in physical force in using a knife to thrust (well muscled in shoulders), whereas a doctor would be very dexterous as would a chef.  I'm not saying that a knife fighter wouldn't be able to filet a trout and debone it with ease, but a chef would have more experience.  A doctor could hurt or heal with a knife by shear knowledge of the human body (see Kim Bassinger's performance in Cellular as a biology teacher and being able to incapacitate one of her abductors by slicing through a major artery) but a knife fighter could probably kill better.

 

So, we can't dismiss Cyndane's knowledge in a battle. Yes, she isn't a strong as she once was, but I bet she could find some use her limited weaves for better uses than Alivia and her stronger weaves, who is used to blowing things up and using brute force. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

You do know that Lanfear no longer exists as Lanfear, right? So whatever strength she had will never ever affect Cyndane in any battle. Why does the fact that Cyndane is weaker come into any possible discussion on Cyndane squaring up to someone?

 

Because it is a way to measure her current strength?  Because her former strength was supposed to be the top strength possible for women?  Because information is important?

 

All the Chosen Rand has fought have all been "strong, perhaps as strong as Rand hismelf" while still having a difference between each other.

 

LOL ... that is you own assessment.  It might be true, but its not anywhere in the books.  But, most of the Forsaken Rand has fought were men, so they were probably all stronger than Lanfear, except for Asmodean.

 

How much stronger than Moghedien would you say Graendal is? Moderately? Considerably? Going off your post saying Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien so late in the series, and the fact that so late on it is noted that Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, then I personally would say theres not much at all seperating Alivia and Graendal on power levels. Alivia has spent 400 years using the Power as a weapon; I dont think its much of a stretch in thinking Alivias has mastered using the Power as a weapon on the same level that Graendal might have.

 

In raw strength there probably is not much difference between Alivia and Graendal.  Alivia wasn't anywhere in my assessment.  The problem with Alivia is that she has only really studied damane style fighting, which is generally throwing lightning and fireballs and earthquakes at non-channelers.  Fighting against channelers is far different, and Alivia, no matter her age, doesn't have either experience or training there.  As was demonstrated against Cyndane.  Cyndane was much weaker than Alivia in terms of raw power at the Cleansing, because Alivia had an angreal.  And Alivia had Nynaeve's whole battle kit, and it was still basically a draw.  Because of Cyndane's much greater experience, which she still has from when people called her Lanfear.  The type of experience that Graendal has as well.

 

Again, if this is a planned attack, then choosing to not use Asha'man and linked circles is absurd.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

She also, with an angreal and ter'angreal directly designed to aid in a fight with the One Power, barely survived against a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal

 

Thats what I was referring to. You keep mentioning that Cyndane is weaker than she was, and that is of no importance in this debate at all. The fact that Cyndane still won despite the reduction is of no importance. Anything to do with Lanfear doesnt apply to this topic because she no longer exists.

 

I think you've misconstrued the point.  Not to speak for Luckers, but I believe the point is that Cyndane is already weaker than Alivia straight up.  As such, this confrontation, between Cyndane with out any aid and Alivia with an Angreal demonstrates that Alivia may not be the greatest of One Power Combatants, despite her superior strength. 

 

I'd still like her in my link though! 

[luftstark]

Just to straight out some thoghts:

 

Graendal says that Cyndane is stronger then her, even if not as strong as Lanfear was.

 

Also Graendal says it's uncommon for men to be stronger then her, and rare for women.

 

So, we could build some sort of ranking of OP raw strentgh, with the Forsaken i can guess and the main character (i'm leaving Logain and Taim out coz... we know they are weaker then Rand, but we have no idea how they compare to the rest). I divided in tiers, coz we can't be certain about some ppl.

 

1. Rand/Ishamael(Moradin) [As strong as it gets, for men]

2. Demandred [always second to LTT/Rand]

3. Lanfear [as strong as it gets, for women]

4. Sammael

5. Alivia/Cyndane

6. Graendal/Rhavin

7. Be'lal/Aran'gar/Osan'gar

8. Nynaeve/Semirhage/Mesaana

9. Moghdien/Asmodean

10. Egwene/Aviendha/Elayne/Cadsuane

 

Some are wild guesses, but as good as any... if anyone has any info i missed.. please correct me!!! ^^

 

So if we see an Alivia vs Graendal fight, in raw strenght, Alivia has the upper hand. But i doubt Alivia could counter Compulsion faster then Cyndane can. So Alivia would be a minor annuence to Greandal, unless someone teach her to hide her ability and invert flows so she can strike first at Graendal. Again, it rely on tatics and surroundings of the encounter.

 

I could see an Egwene vs Graendal, if egwene could find an strong angreal to match in power, only coz Egwene learned Compulsion from Mogh (something Nynaeve/Aviendha/Elayne didn't) and Egwene is one of the best trained Aes Sedai. (in KoD, when she starts jugglin 12 flows, she says that most Aes Sedai could not do it, and on one of her classes, the Aes Sedai states that there is virtualy nothing more she can learn in the Power). So Egwene would be the most prepared woman to defend itself agains Graendal.

 

I hope Semirhage does not goes free... it would be very frustrating to see another FS escape from the good guys. But if she does, i would expect a Cadsuane vs Semirhage showdown, with maybe Cadsuane loosing but crippling Semirhage somehow.

 

Mesaana i have just no guesses. Maybe Egwene, maybe Nynaeve, Maybe Elaida, maybe a circle of Tower Aes Sedai. Maybe some other FS.

 

Cyndane... well.. Just 2 guesses. Moiraine (ultimate revange) or Aviendha, coz... it was for Rand sleeping with her that Lanfear decided to kill Rand. It would be nice to see Aviendha stand up for it.

 

And Moghdien old nemesis, Nynaeve, should kick her ass ^^ Just my hope!!! =D

 

[Zaladane]

I always thought that a Graendal and Elayne matchup could happen.  Elayne is supposed to be quite beautiful not to mention a queen now.  So Graendal might actually come after her whether as a personal quest to make her a pretty or under orders to take her down.  I don't think Elayne could match her in strength of course, but that doesn't mean she can't win, especially if Birgitte is with her and possibly Avhienda. 

 

I also think Nyn will ultimately deal with Moghedien just because of their past encounters.

 

Egwene I think will end up dealing with Messana I think, or else Pevara and her group will find her and deal with it during their hund for black ajah.  But I always thought of Egwene and Nyn as being at least slightly Tavaren being from Emonds field and all, considering some the situations they've been dumped into (and Elayne too) so Egwene may end up dealing with Messana because of this (when she overthrows Elaida of course!!)

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

So if we see an Alivia vs Graendal fight, in raw strenght, Alivia has the upper hand. But i doubt Alivia could counter Compulsion faster then Cyndane can. So Alivia would be a minor annuence to Greandal, unless someone teach her to hide her ability and invert flows so she can strike first at Graendal. Again, it rely on tatics and surroundings of the encounter.

 

Yet another reason why I think it should be Mat vs Graendal.  One sure fire way to counter compulusion is a fox-head medalion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Escaping from Mat would be far, far too easy.  She may not be able to strike directly at him with the Power, but there is still plenty she could do.  Any Asha'man holding the Power has the same degree of immunity to Compulsion, and a lot more weapons to strike back with.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Escaping from Mat would be far, far too easy.  She may not be able to strike directly at him with the Power, but there is still plenty she could do.  Any Asha'man holding the Power has the same degree of immunity to Compulsion, and a lot more weapons to strike back with.

 

Yes, but in the way in envision this escape would the furthest thing from Graendal's mind because Mat would be on the defensive for the majority of the fight.  Also Graendal would be somewhat limited in what she is willing to do to him with the power because I'm sure she'd want to keep him alive and make him one of her pretties.  And of couse Mat's legendary luck would play a huge role in her defeat.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm ... nah, still not buying it.  Graendal's quickness of mind is one of her most prominent characteristics; she would switch from direct to indirect attacks quickly, or flee.  Plus, Mat just "lucking" into killing her would be ... tacky.  To me, anyway.

 

Why doesn't anyone want to have her taken down by Asha'man?  Does it just make too much sense?  :P

[Thor]

I don't think alivia is the same strength as graendal, i think graendal is still stronger in raw power.

 

I also disagree about people who say Nynaeve being stronger than Moghedien.  Remember that moghedien being a coward, she has always fought with inhibition and thus were never able to unleash her full power.  That one time when she broke nynaeve's block when she acted on pure instinct (balefiring the boat), she certainly didn't seem like a pushover.

[Charlz Guybon]

a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal.

 

we don't know that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane. She's only described as considerably stronger than Nynaeve, not as much stronger. Alivia is probably only as strong as Graendal.

[Charlz Guybon]

Aviendha, however, has had training in Forsaken level knowledge.

 

I kind of have to take a small issue with this ... Aviendha has learned the weaves that Elayne and Nynaeve extorted from Moghedien, but she hasn't had anything like formal training in fighting duels with the Power.  Taking on Graendal would be far, far different than chucking fireballs into a mass of soldiers.

 

She does have a warrior's mindset and reaction time/decision making ability, which is an advantage.  But even well equipped, I don't think she could take Graendal, especially in any kind of one on one situation.

 

I still say the best bet is to go in with the guys, assuming you get to plan an assault.

 

Moghedien isn't really a warrior either. Her AoL skill didn't help her overcome Nynaeve and she was a complete amateur. I don't see how Aviendha is better prepared than Alivia.

 

The problem with Alivia is that she has only really studied damane style fighting, which is generally throwing lightning and fireballs and earthquakes at non-channelers.  Fighting against channelers is far different, and Alivia, no matter her age, doesn't have either experience or training there.

 

One of the Seanchan general references a battle during one of their civil wars that had 400 damane on both sides. Alivia's old enough to have fought in that, hell, she's old enough to have fought in the tail end of the Consolidation. Are you really arguing she's never fought other women with the power during that time?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Here is a quote from an earlier post of mine that gives a very generalized synopsis of how I'd see a fight between Graendal and Mat playing out:

 

Personally I'm in favor of Graendal vs Mat.  Think about it, wouldn't she just love to have him as one of her pets.  Sure Mat can't channel but he does have the fox head medallion and alot of luck on his side.  I can just see it, Mat unwittingly stumbles onto Graendal.  After a legnthy cat and mouse type fight between the two Graendal attempts to use compulsion.  The fox head goes so cold that it temporarly stuns Mat and she thinks she has him.  Graendal walks forward to claim her new prize only to recoil with the Alashandre(SP) proturding from between her breasts.  This fight not only makes since but it couldn't help but make for a fun read.  Honestly, I was kind of hoping that Tylin would turn out to be Graendal.

 

 

The only problem is that I'm not sure if the stregnth of a weave is proprotional to the coldness of the medallion.  Feel free to pick it apart.  I posted this mostly for RAW but everyone else should feel free to comment as well.

 

 

I don't think having an Asha'Man take out Graendal would be a bad idea at all.  I just think that with Mat being a heartthrob and Graendal's fondness of posessing pretty men it would make for an interesting dynamic if the two were to interact.

[RobertAlexWillis]

One of the Seanchan general references a battle during one of their civil wars that had 400 damane on both sides. Alivia's old enough to have fought in that, hell, she's old enough to have fought in the tail end of the Consolidation. Are you really arguing she's never fought other women with the power during that time?

 

She probably has fought against other damane in battle, but that is far different than one on one duels with the power.  Its sort of like comparing the skills necessary in dueling artillery commanders, versus the skill necessary in dueling fencers.  Graendal would be far less useful on a battlefield.  But Alivia probably isn't good at countering weaves directed at her personally.  She'd be bloody good at blowing stuff up, including other damane from across the field, since they would have the same holes in training that she does.  Graendal doesn't.

 

Damane aren't encouraged to think of themselves as people.  They wouldn't fight in the field as individuals, they would fight almost like artillery pieces, aimed by their sul'dam.  Its a fundamental difference that puts her at a disadvantage against someone like Graendal.

 

The only problem is that I'm not sure if the stregnth of a weave is proprotional to the coldness of the medallion.  Feel free to pick it apart.  I posted this mostly for RAW but everyone else should feel free to comment as well.

 

The coldness of the medallion is in proportion to the strength of the weave, but I doubt it would ever get cold enough to physically stun him ...

 

... and I don't think Mat meets Graendal's prettiness standards, anyway.

 

Plus ... its not very likely that he would "unwittingly stumble onto Graendal".  Even ta'veren has limits ... and Rand is much closer.

[Mr Ares]

1. Rand/Ishamael(Moradin) [As strong as it gets, for men]

2. Demandred [always second to LTT/Rand]

3. Lanfear [as strong as it gets, for women]

4. Sammael

5. Alivia/Cyndane

6. Graendal/Rhavin

7. Be'lal/Aran'gar/Osan'gar

8. Nynaeve/Semirhage/Mesaana

9. Moghdien/Asmodean

10. Egwene/Aviendha/Elayne/Cadsuane

 

Some are wild guesses, but as good as any... if anyone has any info i missed.. please correct me!!! ^^

Lanfear is stated to be the second strongest Chosen, and Aginor is the second strongest man. Therefore:

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

3. Aginor

4. Demandred (at best)

etc.

 

After a legnthy cat and mouse type fight between the two Graendal attempts to use compulsion. The fox head goes so cold that it temporarly stuns Mat and she thinks she has him. This fight not only makes since but it couldn't help but make for a fun read.

After a lengthy fight in which she never tries any direct weaves? Wouldn't that be the first thing she would try? Wouldn't she see and feel her weaves dissolving? No, this fight doesn't make sense.

[Sab]

More likely the Gholam would jump in and kill anyone who tries to rob it of its chance for revenge on Mat.  Sorry can't see Mat going one on one with a Forsaken.  Plus seeing Mat has that I can't kill a woman thing to, him fighting a female forsaken wouldn't be good.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

More likely the Gholam would jump in and kill anyone who tries to rob it of its chance for revenge on Mat.  Sorry can't see Mat going one on one with a Forsaken.  Plus seeing Mat has that I can't kill a woman thing to, him fighting a female forsaken wouldn't be good.

 

He didn't seem to have much trouble killing that Aiel woman that he was sleeping with.  He seems to be able to get past it if the woman is trying to kill him first.  I'd like to see at least one Frosaken taken down by a non-channeler just to show that channeling isn't everything.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'd like to see at least one Frosaken taken down by a non-channeler just to show that channeling isn't everything.

 

The problem is, against a really experienced channeler, channeling is often the only weapon that will be successful.

[Sab]

More likely the Gholam would jump in and kill anyone who tries to rob it of its chance for revenge on Mat.  Sorry can't see Mat going one on one with a Forsaken.  Plus seeing Mat has that I can't kill a woman thing to, him fighting a female forsaken wouldn't be good.

 

He didn't seem to have much trouble killing that Aiel woman that he was sleeping with.  He seems to be able to get past it if the woman is trying to kill him first.  I'd like to see at least one Frosaken taken down by a non-channeler just to show that channeling isn't everything.

 

He acted before he thought about what he was doing and tried to stop it when he realized what he had done.  Don't forget the fight outside the "hell" where Tuon had to kill the woman.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I'd like to see at least one Frosaken taken down by a non-channeler just to show that channeling isn't everything.

 

The problem is, against a really experienced channeler, channeling is often the only weapon that will be successful.

 

Often is not always, the Green Man killed Balthamal without channeling.  It would be difficult for a non-channeler to kill an experienced channeler but not impossible.  I think a ta'veren with an anti-one power terangreal, the memories of many experienced warriors and lots luck on his side just might be the one who could pull it off.