Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters?

[42Bonzo88]

    I just thought of something that would totally kick ass. Rand and Co. figure out where Graendal is and Amys gets with Aviendah and tells her to get some Ca'dinsor, and they both lead a group of Maidens after Graendal. I would love to see Amys like she was before she 'gave up the spear'.

 

What do you think?

[Dark Justice]

Once you have given up the spear, you have given it up.

 

So if that happened, I think I would put the book down and cry.

 

Graendal would also eat them for lunch.

[42Bonzo88]

    Not necessarily. You sometimes have to do what's necessary instead of what's traditional. Also, I could see Amys doing something with the Dreamworld. I think it was either Moggy or Lanfear who were surprised at how much the "barbarians" knew about the dreamworld.

 

    I'll take your giving up and instead Amys still leads a group of Maidens with Aviendah and they will fight like Wise Ones covering the Maiden's tracks.

[Dark Justice]

You could send Alys, Avienda & all the maidens you want. Grendael would still eat them for lunch.

No matter Alys knowledge of TAR. Grendael would not fight Alys in TAR. Its not her element.

No matter how cool Avi and the maidens are. Grendael is one tough nut. She will not lose to a bunch of spear fighters.

 

[Serick Kerani]

What about Sharina? She's stronger than Nyn and if she had some traingin and linked with someone, even Morgase, i bet she could take on Grendael...just saying

*ducks under a rock to avoid any abusive screams*

[RobertAlexWillis]

Honestly, I'm not betting on any female, one on one vs. Graendal.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Personally I'm in favor of Graendal vs Mat.  Think about it, wouldn't she just love to have him as one of her pets.  Sure Mat can't channel but he does have the fox head medallion and alot of luck on his side.  I can just see it, Mat unwittingly stumbles onto Graendal.  After a legnthy cat and mouse type fight between the two Graendal attempts to use compulsion.  The fox head goes so cold that it temporarly stuns Mat and she thinks she has him.  Graendal walks forward to claim her new prize only to recoil with the Alashandre(SP) proturding from between her breasts.  This fight not only makes since but it couldn't help but make for a fun read.  Honestly, I was kind of hoping that Tylin would turn out to be Graendal.

 

I really think Nyneave vs Semirhage makes alot of since what with one of them being a master healer and the other the master of pain.  Nyn has kind of become Cadsuane's protoge so I could see a scenerio where Semi gets the drop on Cads and Nyn has to come to the rescue.  I'd much rather see this than Nyn vs Moggy round III, its been done to death.

 

I think Egwene vs Mesaana is definitly in the cards but I also hope that afterwards Mesaana gets collared and carted off by the Seanchan never to be heard from again.

 

Egwene vs Moggy also makes since with them both being masters of TAR.  In fact I think that is exactly where the fight should take place.

 

Elayne vs Cyndane just because its LTT's ex vs his current girlfriend.  Plus I have a sneaking suspision the Elayne is Ilyana reborn.  The latter fact, of couse, will never be explicitly stated but will be implied.

 

Rand vs Aran'gar because it would be interesting to see how his "I can't kill a woman" philosophy plays out in this situation.  I think at some point Moridin will reveal himself to Rand as Ishamael. Thus he will be aware of the reincarnated Forsaken phenomonon, and therefore will have a way of figuring out that the Saiden weilding woman is a reincarnated man.

 

These are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.  Let me know what you think. Oh and did I leave anybody out?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

    In light of people's responses (and thank you to all who have so far), I am going to change the instructions. Any woman wether they can channel or not can be included and groups also. I will allow men ONLY if the woman is controlling the circle (so they have to channel obviously). I am doing this because I am similar in view of women as Rand (and it will be the death of me) and sorry, but from my experiences in reading, and studying various accounts of fiction and nonfiction, women are much more viscious (sp?) and fight much more dirty. Face it, if we are going to have a forsaken go down, that is how I would want it. Sorry, for offending.

 

Oops, I didn't get around to reading this until after I posted my answer.  None the less, I will not be rescending my response.  Write my name on the chalkboard is you must.

[Charlz Guybon]

Yeah .... thats not exactly what I meant.  Its more of what Graendal didn't do than what Verin did do.  We have Verin's PoV for that fight.

Verin and co were already holding the power weren't they? Were Cyndane and Moghedien holding it when Graendal got the drop on them?

[Jethro]

The fox head goes so cold that it temporarly stuns Mat and she thinks she has him.

 

Or maybe when it goes cold Mat uses guile and pretends to be stunned, then sticks her when she thinks she has him. Oooh

[Mr Ares]

people drew inference from sammuel's comment that 'in the fury of saidin, safe from graendal's compulsion' or something in those lines. personally i've always seen it more as a metaphoric way of saying he can fend her off since he is already holding the power.

anyways, this is another point that is ambiguous and i'd rather not speculate about it.

He says it won't work on a man holding saidin. Which is really ambiguous.

 

Narishma/Callandor' date=' anyone? Although he would need a female in control of the circle then ...[/quote']Why? The taint is gone, so no wildness of the mind, and any link will prevent him overdrawing.

[sillyman]

Also (and I am not sure if i am making this up or a actually remember it) is it not possible to fight off compulsion.

 

No, the weaves can be countered.  Graendal was just faster than Moghedien and Cyndane.

 

How then do males avoid it. Personally i believe they are only immune while holding the source and thats because of the constant battle they are conducting to maintain control.  So a female or a male not holding the source should be able to fight it of if they are ready.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why? The taint is gone, so no wildness of the mind, and any link will prevent him overdrawing.

 

The flaw in Callandor isn't related to the taint, and it is more than the lack of a buffer.  Its just that in combination with the taint, it was much worse.

 

Really, though, we need to know more about how linking works.  Can a male in control of a mixed circle sense and see female weaves from others?  We know he can sense and see the weaves that he is making with saidar, but can he see weaves from another female channeler?  Is the immunity from holding saidin shared within a circle?  Etc etc.

 

So a female or a male not holding the source should be able to fight it of if they are ready.

 

If you mean "fight it off" just by willpower, then you're completely wrong.  You can't fight off Compulsion by willpower, at least not in the short term.  You may be able to break loose over time, without renewed contact, like Morgase was able to break away from Rahvin, but it takes a long time.  Any battle would be over long before then.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

The fox head goes so cold that it temporarly stuns Mat and she thinks she has him.

 

Or maybe when it goes cold Mat uses guile and pretends to be stunned, then sticks her when she thinks she has him. Oooh

 

Only problem with that is that Mat would have no way of knowing what Graendal was trying to do.  Besides Mat's fighting style tends to involve quick thinking on his feet more so than guile.  I see this whole fight taking place in Graendal's POV up until Mat is stunned and then it switches to Mat's POV.  Can you imagine what Mat might be thinking as he sits there stunned watching Graenadal comming for him.  It would be hallarious.

 

[Sab]

Well she did beat Moggy and Cyndane with the use of that an'grael ring, and neither seemed to actually do much but put the lights out.

 

I can't see anyone fighting Moggy but Ny or Briggete.

[Jethro]

The taint is gone, so no wildness of the mind

 

But the Taints damage to a persons mind remains. Meaning Rand or any other Ashaman who suffered from the wildness of the mind would still be at greater risk using Callandor. Callandor is still flawed

[Luckers]

Involving Callandor would defeat and and maybe even all Chosen if were being as black and white as it seems.

 

What? I'm not commenting on your point here--im confused as to what you were saying at all.

 

So you're saying if Rand said to Nynaeve that Alivia needed them to help Rand sacrifice himself in a way that allows him to come back, she would still be stubborn about it and not give them?

 

1. Why would Rand say that? He's convinced he's going to die, that Alivia will help him do that. He has no intentions to 'come back'. That's why she's so focussed on Alivia to begin with.

 

2. In refernce to 'she would still...'. Yes, I'm saying that.

 

Also Luckers, you add that Cyndane is reduced in strength as if that makes a difference. Since its unlikely that she will obtain her original strength again, then the reduction doesnt help your side of the debate stand. Alivias angreal made her stronger than Lanfear was, which in itself is a decent difference.

 

What? What does her not obtaining her original strength again have to do with anything--Alivia's angreal would have made her considerably stronger than Lanfear, who was stronger than Cyndane. Yet Alivia barely survives her fight with Cyndane.

 

That reduction adds to how much weaker Cyndane was than Alivia during that fight. That seems to sit pretty heavily in my side of the debate. Since, you know, Alivia being the only one strong enough to make up for the difference in skill was the point.

 

She is in fact not strong enough. Not even with an angreal against someone who has no angreal, and was not even her strength to begin with.

 

Graendal has an angreal. Alivia does not. She also doesn't have the training. Aviendha does on both counts.

 

 

 

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Not to intercede at such a late juncture, but...

 

There have been many references to training and how little training Alivia has received.  Some thoughts:

 

1)  Alivia is 400 some odd years old

2)  Alivia was collared at a very young age (early teens?)

3)  Damane are constantly being trained on ways to do battle / kill

4)  I believe the books say she is cosiderably stronger than Nynaeve (in sheer stength in the power anyway)

 

Makes me think that Alivia would be quite formidable.  Not saying she's on Graendal's level, but formiddable none the less.  Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha have been at it what... 3 years or less, with some tutoring from Moghedian. 

[Luckers]

She also, with an angreal and ter'angreal directly designed to aid in a fight with the One Power, barely survived against a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal.

 

And RJ stated this was directly due to Cyndane's superior knowledge of the Power.

 

Alivia is well trained in what she does, and very experienced. But she is not well trained in general. Her knowledge of the Power is military uses against armier--not against fighting other channelers. The only channeler damane fight are uneducated marath'damane and other armies with damane. The one on one duel is something very different. Especially with a Forsaken.

 

The fact is that Alivia, in such a confrontation, is not formidable. Which has been proven in effect. Had she not had Nynaeves ter'angreal and angreal she would have been swatted aside like a fly by Cyndane.

 

Aviendha, however, has had training in Forsaken level knowledge.

[Shard]

I think it would be totally awesome if Briggite could get one with her bow, yes they could wrap air flows around it but they have to know it's there in the first place. All it takes is one shot.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aviendha, however, has had training in Forsaken level knowledge.

 

I kind of have to take a small issue with this ... Aviendha has learned the weaves that Elayne and Nynaeve extorted from Moghedien, but she hasn't had anything like formal training in fighting duels with the Power.  Taking on Graendal would be far, far different than chucking fireballs into a mass of soldiers.

 

She does have a warrior's mindset and reaction time/decision making ability, which is an advantage.  But even well equipped, I don't think she could take Graendal, especially in any kind of one on one situation.

 

I still say the best bet is to go in with the guys, assuming you get to plan an assault.

[Carteeg_Struve]

The one thing I'm hoping for is that a few Forsaken actually survive a defeat. I could imagine Mesaana seeing everything falling apart around her, the DO defeated, and come to the conclusion that remaining in her guise in the White Tower and never revealing herself being the smarted course of action.

 

[Shard]

That's if Alvaren doesn't rat her out first.

[Sab]

The one thing I'm hoping for is that a few Forsaken actually survive a defeat. I could imagine Mesaana seeing everything falling apart around her, the DO defeated, and come to the conclusion that remaining in her guise in the White Tower and never revealing herself being the smarted course of action.

 

 

Problem is come the last battle, I'm sure the Forsaken are going to have to go running to the DO to stop Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I could imagine Mesaana seeing everything falling apart around her, the DO defeated, and come to the conclusion that remaining in her guise in the White Tower and never revealing herself being the smarted course of action.

 

With Egwene in the Tower, that won't happen.  Even if (and I don't think its likely) Mesaana sidesteps the Last battle, she won't give up trying to control the Tower.  Eventually there would be a confrontation.