has egwene done the nasty?

[Casco]

Forced to have sex against the will IS rape, no matter what the reason are for not wanting, or what sex the victim have. Plain and simple.

[Serenla]

Even were that true--and I believe the issues involved are far more complex than that one comment--the fact remains that he was uncomfortable and tried to stop her. No means no. Simple as that. The reasons are irrelevant.

Being uncomfotable with a relationship does not prove rape.  Neither do ridiculous lies that are sure to be ignored.  And where exactly did Mat say no?

 

That's actually completely false. Rape victims wanting to avoid people knowing is the reason long term rape situations occur. These situations are always based around a power system--a parent raping a child, a teacher raping a student--a queen raping a subject.

 

This is especially heightened amongst cases of male rape.

 

I'm guessing you don't have a background in psychology, but if you want i can provide you with a number of case studies on the subject. You could probably even wikipedia this though. Statistics on reports of male rape are not secret.

So there are sources available that indicate that a rape victim does not live in fear of being raped again?  Can you provide me with the infomation I need to find these? 

And no my degree is in professional chemisty.  I have taken 3 or 4 courses in psychology but I have a problem with it, if a person cannot admit their feelings to themselves how can the reseachers be aware of them?  I have a very hard time accepting these studies as accurate because all of the subjects involved would have to be completely honest.  People find it hard to be honest with themselves about things, why would they be any more honest with others?

 

Which of course ignores the complexity of the situation. Aside from fighting a woman, something Mat has shown himself to have problems with, she was Queen. Mat himself states the issues.

 

She laid a hand flat on his chest, back-heeled him into a high-backed chair, and plumped herself down on his lap. Between her and the chair arms, he was trapped. Oh, he could have picked her up and set her on her feet quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as acceptable to her as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise.'He could have picked her up easily, except....

 

He could have picked her up easily--except...

 

That he could have physically defeated her does not mean he had the power to stop her. And I'm sorry but no court in the western world would throw out a rape case involving a weapon just because the victim did not fight back. No matter the skills of the victim.

For starters this case would never make it to a court of law because Mat would have had to view it as rape, which never entered his mind, so what would happen in court is not relevant. 

And you are completely ignoring the fact that when Mat gets annoyed he doesn't care who he yells at. 

 

What? Tylin uses the servants from the first.

She told the kitchens not to let Mat have any food and that's it, until WH.  Mat bought his own food.  So while annoying it is not a big deal.

 

Mat also doesn't force women who don't want him. He doesn't even 'chase' them. Comparing Mat's method with Tylin's will leave you short every time.

Mat got his reputation from somewhere.  The only time we actually see Mat do more than give presents is his chasing of Tuon.  He held her prisoner and wouldn't even let her leave her stinky little wagon without him.  So whereas they never had sex, Mat's chasing of Tuon was more agressive than Tylin's chasing of him.  But that is neither here nor there, the problem is Tylin's method of catching.

 

Okay so, what do you say if you are with someone, fooling around, the door is unlocked and someone may walk in?  I've never been in this situation, but if I were, I believe I might make mention of someone walking in.  But I do tend toward being a private person...  

 

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking?

You said that "someone might walk in" is not something people say before sex.  I say it is if the door is unlocked and someone might walk in.  Having sex is one thing, having people see you have sex is entirely different...

 

Ok... what about these quotes...

 

They smiled and told him he must not spoil his appetite if he was to eat with the Queen. They knew. Every last one of them knew! His own blushes as much as anything else drove him back to his rooms, bitterly regretting that odorous fish at midday.

 

At first light, he sneaked out of his rooms arid found another of the palace servants he remembered, a balding fellow named Madic, with a smug, self-satisfied air and a shy twist to his mouth that said he was not satisfied at all. A man who could be bought. Though the startled look that flashed across his square face, and the smirk he barely bothered to hide, said he knew exactly why Mat was slipping gold into his hand. Blood and ashes! How many people knew what Tylin was up to?

 

 

He shows directly that peoples opinions matter to him--and he also shows directly that his concern is that people know that Tylin is using him--you may say that it is because she is using him other than him using her--and you may be right. Changes nothing. The point in this is that he can't make a big deal out of it because he fears other peole opinions of him.

Having sex is one thing, having the whole world know who you are having it with, who came onto who, and that your lover is keeping you and buying you stuff, is an entirely different thing. 

He says no--and cannot enforce that no because he cannot let people learn he is being victimized. Simple as that. And if you don't accept him saying no, here's the quotes.

 

He had seen fishmongers in the city selling peculiar creatures called squid and octopus—Ebou Dari actually ate the things!—but they had nothing on Tylin. The woman possessed ten hands. He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses, he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown, and she chortled. He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that.

 

Tell me thats not a man saying no. Tell me if it were a woman you would consider the man laughing at her attempts to fob him off as sex play.

That's not a man saying no.  That is a man saying stupid ridiculous crap, while kissing a woman back.  Maybe you interpet this as a no, but I don't see it.  Why not gag and say he's gonna barf?  That would get her off of him, instead of making her laugh.

And if supposed woman was me, I already would have told the man that I wasn't having sex with him.  You can say I wouldn't all you want, but if you met me, I believe you would soon see that I'm just stupid enough to say whatever I want.  This is why I prefer to communicate with this method, I can make sure I am not saying things I will later regret.  Sometimes I even call my sister to make sure that I am saying what I mean...

Firstly, him not being socially driven to have sex is not the same as him being socially driven to own sex. The reason he didn't straight up say 'get off me you crazy bitch' is because she was queen. He did however say 'get off me' in every polite way he had availliable to him. She ignored him, and used power games to enforce that. He couldn't openly fight her because of the social stigma involved--hence she won.

Where in the books is there evidence of this social stigma to which you refer?  i have seen the Two Rivers, where the rule is sex after marriage.  Ebou Dar where woman are the ones who are defered to. And Sea Folk, where whoever defers in public is defered to in private.  And sexually agressive woman have become more and more prevalaint in the society that I live in.  I have never been far from home and am willing to accept that each community is different, but I have not seen evidence to something you refer to like common knowledge.

 

He squirms? That really how you want to phrase that? Refer to the quote above. Refer to this "He was safe now, anyway. Tylin would not batter down the door, after all. Would she? Not even most birds could get in through the wrought-iron arabesques screening the balconies. Besides, she would need a long ladder to reach that high. And men to carry it. Unless she climbed down from the roof on a rope. Or she could.... The night passed, his stomach rumbled, the sun rose, and he never closed his eyes or had a decent thought."

He cannot sleep from fear of her. Even when he knows she really can't reach him, the fear holds him. And you phrase it as squirming?

He stays awake trying to figure out why she is behaving so indecently, not from fear.  Unless you really expect for me to believe that he seriously thought that the Queen was going to rappel from the roof and squeeze through the balcony thing?

 

Yes, because people are completely rational when being raped. He threw out everything he could think of in a random splurge. That shows his utter desperation to escape the situation.

Except something that had a chance of working.  Like no or I have to go to the bathroom or I drank too much last night and I'm gonna throw up...  With the last two he wouldn't have lost face at all.  And if he is so desperate that he can't think straight, how is he thinking about social stigmas and the fact that she's the queen?  That's a bit selective for out and out hysteria.

 

If you re-read my statement, you'll find that i stated Mat never did THAT sort of chasing. You can call it chasing all you want. Presumably a rapist must chase their victim.

Mat thought of it as chasing.  That makes it chasing.  End of story.

 

All of those would openly admit his situation to the people around him, which, as i've said, wasn't an option. Bringing in Olver as a shield is the only viable option he had.

How about the serving men?  That would have been more effective than a child and socially acceptable.

 

1. Doesn't matter--he agreed, and his word bound him.

 

2. That promise combines with the promise Mat made to protect them. I'm sorry, the degree of prevarication you describe is not within Mat's character.

 

Him hiding within the palace is something i've already addressed--but your comment about the definition of rape. Please--rape is often facilitated through the rapist using the victims belief that they have no other options. Thats exactly what Mat experiences.

1.Why agree when he was trying to avoid the queen?  Did Mat get stupid?  You can't effectively avoid someone if you agree to live in their home.

2.Why do the promises combine? If they are safe with him across the street before, moving in and out of the palace isn't going to make them unsafe now.  He also gives no thoughts that support that he saw the promises as having combined.

 

Where does Mat show any belief that he has no other options?

 

We are not speaking of peer presure, we are speaking of social presure. It's the difference between the presure to smoke, and the presure to dress as a boy and play sports when you really want to wear a dress and play with dolls.

I see no evidence that Mat experienced said pressure. 

The fact is that social presures can be a threat to life. These are presures placed on the very things we use to define ourselves. And if you don't think that threat is viable go look at how many gay kids commit suicide.

 

We are not speaking of Mat standing up to people disaproving of him, we are speaking of his fear that people will disaprove of him. They are very different things. Standing up to bullies, and surviving them when you deep down agree with them are different things. You think people mocking you for liking books, or world of warcraft, or whatever compares to this? The very things that defined who he was were under attack.

There is no evidence that Mat felt this way.

Please do not make light of my experiences.  I was 25 before I could actually say I want to be alive, due to the constant mocking by peers and teachers, for everything from being overweight to not relatng well with others.  For years I would lay awake at night wishing I were dead, and whereas I didn't kill myself, I wanted to more often than not. 

 

Its not that they should have sex with any attractive woman, but that they should own sex. But its still more complex--to mat men are the ones who do the chasing--within his mind once sex is initiated he SHOULD want it, but thats becuase in his mind sex is only initiated when he wants it. He has no preparation to deal with what happens when he isn't.

 

Doesn't change the fact that in his own fumbled way he made utterly clear to Tylin that he didn't want to have sex with her, and she continued--using force.

Again I see no evidence in the books to suppport that Mat should own sex.  And I don't see how he made a lack of desire utterly clear, if I did, why would I be having this discussion?

 

I'm sorry, but I doubt that. Oh, you might resist him, throw him off--we've already covered why Mat couldn't do that--but that you'd consider that the threat was over--that you'd go from resisting to accepting just because he shot the bedpost--no.

 

You'd fight him off.

 

But then, maybe your into that. Mat, however, was not.

Why would I lie?  No I wouldn't have sex with someone willingly if they pulled a gun on me.  I'd probably shove the thing down their throat at the first opportunity.  So if I was faster and could get it after he put it down, he'd be full of holes...

 

As for the rest--again, the quote i stated above shows mats thoughts. He could have stopped her, but she was queen.

And yet this is the only time where Mat encountered a noble and cared about their rank...

 

That was a part of his arc--have you seen him fighting his fate in recent books? He no longer struggles like he did in any of those situations. In fact he hasn't since tFoH.

His plot has sped up considerably since he agreed to lead the soldiers in Tear toward Illian.  It took him a while to make that decision.  Then Rand gives him hours to go to Elayne.  THe promise forced him to Ebou Dar, where he stayed at the inn because he didn't want to listen to Elayne.  He then tries to talk himself out of saving the Aes Sedai, but the time frame again is short.  After which he doesn't really have to fight anyone, he is making the choices, even if Leilwin thinks she is.  So when he has the time to fight what has to be done, he does, but being in charge for much of it gives him a lot less to fight.

 

Which is why I have spent weeks and a lot of time trying to get them to see why it wasn't a rape...

 

Like how a husband raping his wife wasn't rape? Like how a lord raping a peasant wasn't rape.

You do realize that that is insulting, don't you?

 

If people see rape as something that can be funny, I feel that they may be missing how truely awful it is.  

 

I agree. Utterly. Consider the full reality of that.

I have, people have the idea that rape is not that serious and then rapists are not kept in jail forever and they are put back on the streets to rape again.  It's terrifying.

 

 

[vainebekonnes]

Mat was sexually assaulted. That involved full penetration. By law that is rape.

Depends on the law.  Yes, penetration is rape, but for many rape laws, you have to be the one penetrated.  It's the way the laws work where I live, and it's how they work elsewhere as well.  It's a bunch of BS to be sure, but that's what it is.

[MikeRiley]

Being uncomfotable with a relationship does not prove rape.  Neither do ridiculous lies that are sure to be ignored.  And where exactly did Mat say no?

 

In those ridiculous lies you ignored. He didn't say the word "no" but that's what those lies amounted to. That wasn't Mat flirting, that was Mat in a panic.

 

So there are sources available that indicate that a rape victim does not live in fear of being raped again?  Can you provide me with the infomation I need to find these? 

 

When a person is raped, either by family or a boyfriend/girlfriend, they don't always want to tell on the rapist for fear of what will happen next. Maybe they don't want to admit to themselves that it is rape even when they know they have no control over what happens. So they try to ignore it and nothing changes, it goes from a single case to many. I don't have sources for this but I shouldn't need to (actually, I don't want to see the google results that accompany such a search). I thought this was almost as common knowledge as the fact that rape is real.

 

Mat got his reputation from somewhere.  The only time we actually see Mat do more than give presents is his chasing of Tuon.  He held her prisoner and wouldn't even let her leave her stinky little wagon without him.  So whereas they never had sex, Mat's chasing of Tuon was more agressive than Tylin's chasing of him.  But that is neither here nor there, the problem is Tylin's method of catching.

 

His reputation came from the girls gossiping. Flapping tongues without much real truth. The situation is different anyway. Tuon had control of her environment - the wagon. That was made very clear in the books the way Mat was not always allowed to come by and he had to leave when he was told to. He also couldn't even kiss her until she said he could in book 11. You could argue that the wagon was a prison and I would agree, because Mat did kidnap her. She was his hostage until a time when he could safely let her go. He didn't take her hostage so that he could chase her.

 

You said that "someone might walk in" is not something people say before sex.  I say it is if the door is unlocked and someone might walk in.  Having sex is one thing, having people see you have sex is entirely different...

 

Lawyer tricks. You split words and take it all out of context. That "someone might walk in" was in the middle of his protests that she can't do that. He was not saying "check the door, honey, somebody might walk in!" He was grasping at Asmodean's tuft of grass.

 

That's not a man saying no.  That is a man saying stupid ridiculous crap, while kissing a woman back.  Maybe you interpet this as a no, but I don't see it. 

 

That's a bunch of BS. That "stupid ridiculous crap" was him saying no. Just because you choose to ignore it so you can screw him doesn't make it right.

 

 

He squirms? That really how you want to phrase that? Refer to the quote above. Refer to this "He was safe now, anyway. Tylin would not batter down the door, after all. Would she? Not even most birds could get in through the wrought-iron arabesques screening the balconies. Besides, she would need a long ladder to reach that high. And men to carry it. Unless she climbed down from the roof on a rope. Or she could.... The night passed, his stomach rumbled, the sun rose, and he never closed his eyes or had a decent thought."

He cannot sleep from fear of her. Even when he knows she really can't reach him, the fear holds him. And you phrase it as squirming?

He stays awake trying to figure out why she is behaving so indecently, not from fear.  Unless you really expect for me to believe that he seriously thought that the Queen was going to rappel from the roof and squeeze through the balcony thing?

 

Panicked thoughts tend to wander and get more bizarre. He didn't stay awake to try and figure anything out, he was up the whole night with thoughts like that rappelling. He was worried she would actually come back. Of course if you want to take just those lines from the book, no he wasn't worried. Taken in context with the rest, with Olver being moved to the sitting room in an attempt to keep Tylin from him, locking his door, staying away from the palace as long as possible each day...

 

Yes, because people are completely rational when being raped. He threw out everything he could think of in a random splurge. That shows his utter desperation to escape the situation.

Except something that had a chance of working.  Like no or I have to go to the bathroom or I drank too much last night and I'm gonna throw up...  With the last two he wouldn't have lost face at all.  And if he is so desperate that he can't think straight, how is he thinking about social stigmas and the fact that she's the queen?  That's a bit selective for out and out hysteria.

 

Welcome to the mind of a guy. Something you'll never understand, just as we'll never understand a woman's. Something that is so deeply ingrained is always there, and that is so deeply ingrained.

 

 

Its not that they should have sex with any attractive woman, but that they should own sex. But its still more complex--to mat men are the ones who do the chasing--within his mind once sex is initiated he SHOULD want it, but thats becuase in his mind sex is only initiated when he wants it. He has no preparation to deal with what happens when he isn't.

 

Doesn't change the fact that in his own fumbled way he made utterly clear to Tylin that he didn't want to have sex with her, and she continued--using force.

Again I see no evidence in the books to suppport that Mat should own sex. 

 

His worry that everybody knows Tylin wears the pants in the relationship. Thom knuckling his mustache to keep from laughing.

 

Why would I lie?  No I wouldn't have sex with someone willingly if they pulled a gun on me.  I'd probably shove the thing down their throat at the first opportunity.  So if I was faster and could get it after he put it down, he'd be full of holes...

 

Well and good, and understandable.. but Mat couldn't take that knife to the queen of Ebou Dar right in the middle of her palace. Even if he was willing to do violence to a woman, which he was not. You say if you were faster you would get the gun, this suggests you did not believe the threat was over simply because he put the weapon down. Imagine if you couldn't use the gun if you did get it? Imagine if you couldn't streak through the halls of a well-populated palace and had to take time to get dressed.

 

As for the rest--again, the quote i stated above shows mats thoughts. He could have stopped her, but she was queen.

And yet this is the only time where Mat encountered a noble and cared about their rank...

 

This is the first time Mat was in that situation and he wasn't going to manhandle a queen in her own palace.

 

Just to clear something up with a previous post I made, I'm calling this rape based on law but in Ebou Dar in the books it might only be borderline. The arguments given that it was not a rape are mostly "well he really wanted it" and I find that line of thought on the subject to be both dangerous and offensive.

[Mr Ares]

The social norm in the books do not apply to him.

Except it does in some things, but not in others.

Had he refused her he would have offended and made an enemy of her

It is possible to turn someone down politely.

 

To run from it is to tell everybody you're weaker or not into women.

Or just not into that woman.

 

It's worked well enough for me. Plus, Mat is from a culture in which not having sex until you're married is the norm.

Really? You havn't felt presured at all to have sex? Resisting is all well and fine, but your really saying you've not felt the presure?

Not to any significant degree. Society seems not to object to my usual desire to abstain from sex outside of marriage - in fact it seems to prefer it.

 

He did refuse--we arn't speaking of that.

Whether or not he refused is precisely what is at issue.

 

The expectation of male sexual dominance is as rampant in that world as it is now--indeed, if anything it is more of an issue then than it is now.

How so?

 

He had seen fishmongers in the city selling peculiar creatures called squid and octopus—Ebou Dari actually ate the things!—but they had nothing on Tylin. The woman possessed ten hands. He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses, he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown, and she chortled. He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that.

Look at this from Tylin's point of view: Mat, the guy who chases after every girl he sees is claiming he is betrothed to a girl at home? Of course she would laugh. It's an incredibly weak excuse. "Yeah, I fancy this girl back at home, but not enough to stop me trying it on with every tavern wench from here to the Blightborder, and not enough to stop me ogling you." If that's a refusal, it's not a polite one, it is an utterly transparent lie. Respect for her crown? No-one respects that crown, and why should it be disrepectful to sleep with her? It isn't. As for someone might walk in, that's not an objection to the act, that's an objection to anyone seeing it. If you were Tylin, pursuing Mat, and that is what he came up with, would you think that indicated disinterest? They could be taken that way, but they don't necessarily have to be, which is the problem people have with this. Some people see a refusal on Mat's part, others see Mat making rather weak excuses rather than just refusing. And if you don't see it as refusing, then how could it be rape? If he didn't want it, why didn't he refuse?

 

Mat was sexually assaulted. That involved full penetration. By law that is rape.

Funny thing about laws. They vary a bit from time to time and place to place. Whether or not what happens to Mat legally constitutes rape would depend not only interpretation of events, but also on whose laws we go by. Is it rape according to Altaran law?

 

The arguments given that it was not a rape are mostly "well he really wanted it" and I find that line of thought on the subject to be both dangerous and offensive.

What the arguments come down to is whether or not Mat consented to sex. He certainly objected to some of Tylin's treatment of him, he certainly didn't want that. But whether or not he was actually alright with having sex with her, and thus whether or not this constitutes rape, is a different question. Because Mat didn't clearly say no, he said some things which might be taken as a no, and might not be taken as a no. "That wasn't Mat flirting", you say, but how is Tylin supposed to know?

[benr]

 

 

 

 

Mat got his reputation from somewhere.  The only time we actually see Mat do more than give presents is his chasing of Tuon.  He held her prisoner and wouldn't even let her leave her stinky little wagon without him.  So whereas they never had sex, Mat's chasing of Tuon was more agressive than Tylin's chasing of him.  But that is neither here nor there, the problem is Tylin's method of catching.

 

His reputation came from the girls gossiping. Flapping tongues without much real truth. The situation is different anyway. Tuon had control of her environment - the wagon. That was made very clear in the books the way Mat was not always allowed to come by and he had to leave when he was told to. He also couldn't even kiss her until she said he could in book 11. You could argue that the wagon was a prison and I would agree, because Mat did kidnap her. She was his hostage until a time when he could safely let her go. He didn't take her hostage so that he could chase her.

 

 

 

The situation with Tuon is very different.  It is not sexual, at least at the start.  Mat knows he is to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Tuon recognizes quickly that Mat is the man she is fated to be with.  She spends lots of time "stalking" Mat.  She puts herself into position to be kidnapped by Mat.  She is looking to see if he is worthy of her.  When she sees the lion on the hill, she concludes that he is.  Still, this is a "Wheel" arranged marriage - and a political one.  As to Mat holding her prisoner, she is being hunted for death as well as rescue; Mat feels a need to protect her from all sides, and if she were out and recognized, she would be in danger. He is certainly courting her, but that is all it is.

[Serenla]

In those ridiculous lies you ignored. He didn't say the word "no" but that's what those lies amounted to. That wasn't Mat flirting, that was Mat in a panic.

Lawyer tricks. You split words and take it all out of context. That "someone might walk in" was in the middle of his protests that she can't do that. He was not saying "check the door, honey, somebody might walk in!" He was grasping at Asmodean's tuft of grass.

Welcome to the mind of a guy. Something you'll never understand, just as we'll never understand a woman's. Something that is so deeply ingrained is always there, and that is so deeply ingrained.

Mat's point of view refers to three things in this paticular instance.  Three things that were absurb enough to make Tylin laugh, three things that I didn't read as a refusal, and that many other people, men included, didn't read as a refusal.  How can this be considered a no or a clear refusal when many people have read it and didn't see it that way?  If I was the only person in the world who took it the same way I did, I would have to go back to school and relearn how to read, but I am not the only one.  This means that it was not clear. 

I have been offered no proof that Mat could not have just said no in a firm but polite manner.  You say that it is deeply ingrained in a male's mind, but the only thing that I see ingrained in Mat's mind is that woman are not allowed to chase men.

 

And there is really no standard way that men think and women think.  People all have different minds.  There are similarities in thought processes based on similar experiences and culture, there are a few unique experiences to a male or female, but this by no means indicates that all men think the same and all women think the same, without some level of understanding between the two.

 

 

That's a bunch of BS. That "stupid ridiculous crap" was him saying no. Just because you choose to ignore it so you can screw him doesn't make it right.

Huh? When did I do any of that?

 

So there are sources available that indicate that a rape victim does not live in fear of being raped again?  Can you provide me with the infomation I need to find these? 

 

When a person is raped, either by family or a boyfriend/girlfriend, they don't always want to tell on the rapist for fear of what will happen next. Maybe they don't want to admit to themselves that it is rape even when they know they have no control over what happens. So they try to ignore it and nothing changes, it goes from a single case to many. I don't have sources for this but I shouldn't need to (actually, I don't want to see the google results that accompany such a search). I thought this was almost as common knowledge as the fact that rape is real.

They may not admit to others outloud that they fear a repeat of the experience, but even if they don't want to think about it, it will enter their thoughts. If we couldn't see Mat's thoughts, it would change the discussion.  We do however see his thoughts, and he is embarrassed by people knowing.  Same as if he had chosen to have sex with someone embarassing.

 

His reputation came from the girls gossiping. Flapping tongues without much real truth. The situation is different anyway. Tuon had control of her environment - the wagon. That was made very clear in the books the way Mat was not always allowed to come by and he had to leave when he was told to. He also couldn't even kiss her until she said he could in book 11. You could argue that the wagon was a prison and I would agree, because Mat did kidnap her. She was his hostage until a time when he could safely let her go. He didn't take her hostage so that he could chase her.

Chase her, make her fall in love with him.  That was his reasoning, along with the fact that he didn't see how he could marry a woman if they weren't at the same place.

And control of her environment?  Because she liked living there in a tiny wagon, being known as a faithless servant, not allowed to leave and having Mat barge in whenever he chose?

He stays awake trying to figure out why she is behaving so indecently, not from fear.  Unless you really expect for me to believe that he seriously thought that the Queen was going to rappel from the roof and squeeze through the balcony thing?

 

Panicked thoughts tend to wander and get more bizarre. He didn't stay awake to try and figure anything out, he was up the whole night with thoughts like that rappelling. He was worried she would actually come back. Of course if you want to take just those lines from the book, no he wasn't worried. Taken in context with the rest, with Olver being moved to the sitting room in an attempt to keep Tylin from him, locking his door, staying away from the palace as long as possible each day...

I am not ignoring it and taking it out of context, you are choosing to ignore that he was in fact wondering why she was chasing him and behaving indecently.  The thoughts about breaking down the door and what not are not fear, he is trying to decide how indecently she will behave.  He brought Olver not to protect him, but because he figured that Tylin would pursue him less openly and "indecently" with a child present.

 

 

His worry that everybody knows Tylin wears the pants in the relationship. Thom knuckling his mustache to keep from laughing.

That only shows that he thinks he should be the one who gets to inititate it.  Not that he can't refuse it.  In fact, it shows that he could have refused it on the grounds that men get to be the dominate party not women.

 

Well and good, and understandable.. but Mat couldn't take that knife to the queen of Ebou Dar right in the middle of her palace. Even if he was willing to do violence to a woman, which he was not. You say if you were faster you would get the gun, this suggests you did not believe the threat was over simply because he put the weapon down. Imagine if you couldn't use the gun if you did get it? Imagine if you couldn't streak through the halls of a well-populated palace and had to take time to get dressed.

Why can't Mat streak to the halls?  It would be better than being raped.  And without the knife, how is Tylin a threat to Mat?  She may be indecent, but I bet a queen has enough pride not to tell the whole city that a man refused to have sex with her.

 

This is the first time Mat was in that situation and he wasn't going to manhandle a queen in her own palace.

He would if she as going to kill him, and since rape is the death of your security and self image, he would have manhandled her if he felt she was raping him.

 

Just to clear something up with a previous post I made, I'm calling this rape based on law but in Ebou Dar in the books it might only be borderline. The arguments given that it was not a rape are mostly "well he really wanted it" and I find that line of thought on the subject to be both dangerous and offensive.

My arguments are that he did not clearly refuse.

 

The idea that bothers me about this debate, is that people think someone who is being raped has any pride left.

[Casco]

Serenla, no offence, but i dont think you think about Mat´s whole situation. It was not just a Tylin vs Mat situation there. It was the knowlege about what will happen to him, his friends, his promise, the bowl of the wind "quest", and alot of other stuff like.. help Rand save the world?

He couldn´t have stopped Tylin with force without risking it all. Tylin did know this (not all of it but enough)and used the knowlege to force Mat to be her "toy". She even used a weapon the first time so he couldn´t refuse. Mat was forced to stay in the palace to, not only by Tylin, but he did promise Rand to guard the girls and help them out.

In easy words, he was trapped and did get raped. In the end he stopped fighting it and he did begin to understand Tylin and the laws in Ebu Dar but he never WANTED to have sex with her. He even did get to like her a little...at least he was a little sad when she did get killed.

 

"The idea that bothers me about this debate, is that people think someone who is being raped has any pride left."

The idea that´s bothers me is that people think someone needs to be a totaly nervwreak and want to suicide after a rape. There is alot of examples in the books of people who did get raped and didnt loose the pride. Moghedien is one example.

[Elgee]

Serenla, no offence, but i dont think you think about Mat´s whole situation. It was not just a Tylin vs Mat situation there. It was the knowlege about what will happen to him, his friends, his promise, the bowl of the wind "quest", and alot of other stuff like.. help Rand save the world?

He couldn´t have stopped Tylin with force without risking it all. Tylin did know this (not all of it but enough)and used the knowlege to force Mat to be her "toy". She even used a weapon the first time so he couldn´t refuse. Mat was forced to stay in the palace to, not only by Tylin, but he did promise Rand to guard the girls and help them out.

In easy words, he was trapped and did get raped. In the end he stopped fighting it and he did begin to understand Tylin and the laws in Ebu Dar but he never WANTED to have sex with her. He even did get to like her a little...at least he was a little sad when she did get killed.

 

"The idea that bothers me about this debate, is that people think someone who is being raped has any pride left."

The idea that´s bothers me is that people think someone needs to be a totaly nervwreak and want to suicide after a rape. There is alot of examples in the books of people who did get raped and didnt loose the pride. Moghedien is one example.

 

Casco, do you perhaps mean Morgaese? Because if so, she actually DID contemplate suicide. In fact, she almost did it, but Lini prevented her.

 

It's clear to me, and I think to Serenla too, that you do not have the vaguest idea how people who have been raped feel and react. Maybe you should have the courtesy of accepting the point of view of those people who have been there / dealt with people who have? It show's in Morgaese's POV - it does NOT show in Mat's.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

I just wrote an entire reply and lost it all. im giving up for the night.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

My arguments are that he did not clearly refuse.

He didn't clearly consent either.  Where is the consent?  Is there a way to look at the relevant passages, extrapolate what Tylin is thinking, and arrive at the conclusion that she though Mat was saying "yes"?  I can't do it.  Mats reaction to the knife is genuine fear.  Tylin is not dumb and I think she knew that Mat was unwilling.

 

Why would Mat fall into the role of the "chased" the way he did?  He definitely didn't like it.  He didn't want to be chased by Tylin.  I think that the evidence shows that Mat didn't want to chase Tylin, either.  Mat didn't want to chase Tylin, and he didn't want to be chased by her.  What else is there?

 

 

 

 

Casco, do you perhaps mean Morgaese? Because if so, she actually DID contemplate suicide. In fact, she almost did it, but Lini prevented her.

Moggy was raped by the superfade.

 

It's clear to me, and I think to Serenla too, that you do not have the vaguest idea how people who have been raped feel and react. Maybe you should have the courtesy of accepting the point of view of those people who have been there / dealt with people who have?

It is easy to find out how rape victims react by doing a little research: it's called rape trauma syndrome.  Seeing RTS up close or suffering it directly is not required to understand the idea.  It is arrogant and dumb to accuse someone of discourtesy for not agreeing with your opinion, just because you have more experience.

 

It show's in Morgaese's POV - it does NOT show in Mat's.

Mat doesn't suffer much, but he has some seriously good coping mechanisms to help him with that.  He does suffer:

disorganized thoughts

hysteria

confusion

crying (almost)

sensitivity to the reaction of other people

anxiety

paranoia

insomnia

 

[Casco]

Im sorry if i offended you in any way there :( but i do know 2 girls who have been raped, one of them a very good friend of mine. I wanted to point out that not ALL who get raped want to do suicide and loose their pride. Thats all.

Feels like i got my head shopped off there....interesting reaction however.

 

EDIT: No, not Morgase, Moghedien.

 

 

[Serenla]

Serenla, no offence, but i dont think you think about Mat´s whole situation. It was not just a Tylin vs Mat situation there. It was the knowlege about what will happen to him, his friends, his promise, the bowl of the wind "quest", and alot of other stuff like.. help Rand save the world? He couldn´t have stopped Tylin with force without risking it all. Tylin did know this (not all of it but enough)and used the knowlege to force Mat to be her "toy". She even used a weapon the first time so he couldn´t refuse. Mat was forced to stay in the palace to, not only by Tylin, but he did promise Rand to guard the girls and help them out.

I don't take offense, but I have to counter with the fact that all of Mat's thoughts and actions and his personality in general are being disregarded, when they do not support the rape arguement.  And there is no proof in the story that gives evidence that Mat politely refusing Tylin in a clear manner was impossible or would result in any failure to complete said tasks or repercussions to his friends.  Tylin even said herself that she was a weak queen and couldn't refuse the darkfriend whitecloaks presence in her palace.  She would be even less able to interfere with Aes Sedai.  And nothing in this book or any other book gives any impression that Tylin is dumb enough to anger Aes Sedai to play bed the ta'veren.  Had she made some huge fuss over Mat's rejection, the Aes Sedai would have found out and interfered, if only to keep some hold over Mat.

In easy words, he was trapped and did get raped. In the end he stopped fighting it and he did begin to understand Tylin and the laws in Ebu Dar but he never WANTED to have sex with her. He even did get to like her a little...at least he was a little sad when she did get killed.

Can you provide a direct passage from the book that shows this?  The only thing that even borders on it is when he yells at Elayne and most of what he says is exageration because Elayne ticked him off, by being her usual judgemental self.

 

"The idea that bothers me about this debate, is that people think someone who is being raped has any pride left."

The idea that´s bothers me is that people think someone needs to be a totaly nervwreak and want to suicide after a rape. There is alot of examples in the books of people who did get raped and didnt loose the pride. Moghedien is one example.

aCoS Chapter 25 paragraph 32 Moghedien's thoughts "Whatever is necessary to survive"  That is the opposite of pride. 

 

My arguments are that he did not clearly refuse.

He didn't clearly consent either.  Where is the consent?  Is there a way to look at the relevant passages, extrapolate what Tylin is thinking, and arrive at the conclusion that she though Mat was saying "yes"?  I can't do it.  Mats reaction to the knife is genuine fear.  Tylin is not dumb and I think she knew that Mat was unwilling.

If both parties are willing, consent is not necessary. It's implied.  If one party is unwilling, he or she will make it clear that they are unwilling.  If the person does not take the first comment as a refusal the person will continue refusing, not just go along with it.  People do not just go along with being raped, they have no pride about it, they will beg and plead and anything to stop it from happening.  It's not an inconvience, it's completely and totally unwanted. 

And if Mat thought his life was in danger, he would have tried to keep his life.  He wouldn't have asked her what she was going to do.  Everyone says Mat keeps his promises no matter what, how can he keep them if he lets someone kill him?

 

Why would Mat fall into the role of the "chased" the way he did?  He definitely didn't like it.  He didn't want to be chased by Tylin.  I think that the evidence shows that Mat didn't want to chase Tylin, either.  Mat didn't want to chase Tylin, and he didn't want to be chased by her.  What else is there?

Mat might have chased Tylin, he just hadn't been given the chance.  He didn't mind staring at her.  And no mat thought chasing was his job, he doesn't say how he feels about being caught, except that he liked some of it, when she wasn't treating him like a doll.  And he went along with it because men do strange things when they are with women.  He not only continued to have a sexual relationship with her, he let her chose his clothes and tell him what to do.  Exactly what I have seen men do at the start of a new relationship.

 

It is easy to find out how rape victims react by doing a little research: it's called rape trauma syndrome.  Seeing RTS up close or suffering it directly is not required to understand the idea.  It is arrogant and dumb to accuse someone of discourtesy for not agreeing with your opinion, just because you have more experience.

Now you are insulting someone because they don't agree with you.  Is it necessary to make this a personal and insulting discussion?  It won't make anyone's points any stronger and is less likely to be resolved or abandoned if we stop being rational and start being mean.

It show's in Morgaese's POV - it does NOT show in Mat's.

Mat doesn't suffer much, but he has some seriously good coping mechanisms to help him with that.  He does suffer:

disorganized thoughts

hysteria

confusion

crying (almost)

sensitivity to the reaction of other people

anxiety

paranoia

insomnia

 

These are completely out of context, so do not prove anything.  Everyone suffers from these on occasion, it's when and why that makes it signs of rape, not feeling them for other valid reasons.

 

Im sorry if i offended you in any way there :( but i do know 2 girls who have been raped, one of them a very good friend of mine. I wanted to point out that not ALL who get raped want to do suicide and loose their pride. Thats all.

Feels like i got my head shopped off there....interesting reaction however.

 

EDIT: No, not Morgase, Moghedien.

 

 

People are very good at hiding their feelings when you can't see what they think.  To show vunerability even to those closest to you is not easy and invites pity and judgement.  Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, but just the idea of being raped makes everyone I know say they'd do anything to stop it.  Doing anything means there is no pride involved.  As for suicide, people don't usually tell anyone that they want to die. 

Lack of signs in Mat's thoughts is not proof that there was no rape, but it is a good indicator.  Take all of the points that I have mentioned into account and there is, in my opinion, a very reasonable arguement against this having been rape. 

 

In Elgee's defense, having seen how devestating rape can be, any statement that seems to minimize the trauma a rape victim feels is going to provoke anger. 

[WWWwombat]

Mat was raped and it was funny.  Bumped.

[JenniferL]

Locked. Don't troll here.