When does Lews Therin come to the Horn's call?

[MikeRiley]

We know Lews Therin is tied to the Horn of Valere due to Hawkwing's hesitation at seeing him in the flesh when Mat sounds the horn. He said since he was there in the flesh they would have to follow the Dragon Banner instead. We also know that between the Age of Legends and book 2 the Horn of Valere was not sounded and by the time it was, Rand was alive and kicking.

 

So sometime after the Last Battle and before the Age of Legends the Horn must get used. The only other alternative I can think of is that tied to the Horn, Rand dies in the Last Battle and once the Horn of Valere is sounded he rides out leading the Heroes. It would happen that way if Rand did die there and the people losing all hope sound the Horn in the big fight. Unless the Dark One revived him as his minion first but maybe him being killed with balefire could deal with that.

 

Another thought. When Lews Therin sees Rand is there in the flesh and so the Dragon Banner would have to be followed instead, it suggests the Horn was sounded at the wrong time and that the Dragon Banner is as old as the Horn of Valere. Wasn't the Dragon Banner Lews Therin's and a product of the Age of Legends? So the Dragon could be an ancient title from every cycle of the Wheel.

[Alghar Khan]

So sometime after the Last Battle and before the Age of Legends the Horn must get used. The only other alternative I can think of is that tied to the Horn, Rand dies in the Last Battle and once the Horn of Valere is sounded he rides out leading the Heroes. It would happen that way if Rand did die there and the people losing all hope sound the Horn in the big fight. Unless the Dark One revived him as his minion first but maybe him being killed with balefire could deal with that.

Maybe the Horn gets used every last battle (could be at some other time too). The Heroes in t'a'r could be talking about those other last battles in other turnings of thee Wheel. Rand could be dead at some last battles. He probably gets killed at some of them. And maybe he rides with the heroes then. I don't think Balefire could stop the Dragon, because then the Dark One would have ordered him balefired already.

 

 

 

[Alghar Khan]

Unless the Dark One revived him as his minion first but maybe him being killed with balefire could deal with that.

Oh, I forgot to mention that you'd have to be a follower of the DO for him to revive you.

[mb]

About balefire, we do not know if it affects whether a non-reborn Hero comes or not.

About the Dragon banner, I take that it was made during Lews Therin's lifetime.

 

I am not sure if there will be need to use the Horn in this cycle after Tarmon Gaidon since the land would be cleansed of the shadow.

 

[Charlz Fel]

I think the following is possible:

 

The other Heroes know that the Dragon is (in principle) tied to the Horn because he spends his "death" in TAR.  However, because of the way the Pattern is woven, the Horn is only ever sounded when the Dragon is alive in the flesh.

 

Concerning the need to follow the Dragon banner: We know that the Wheel takes a more direct hand at the end of the Great Hunt than at any other time in the series so far.  For instance, it causes the fight between Rand and Ba'alzamon to be visible in the sky, and at the moment when Rand is declared, it causes a vision to appear above the armies of the two False Dragons then declared, causing both of them to be captured.  There are a couple of other things concerning the Heroes directly that seem odd: the fact that they need to follow the Dragon banner, and the fact that their battle is tied to Rand's duel.  I am inclined to think that these are also the direct intervention of the Wheel, rather than some inherent property of the Horn of Valere.  If so, it suggests that Moiraine's worries about Darkfriends summoning the Heroes to fight for the Shadow are not well grounded.  If they tried, the Heroes would come, but whether they were able to fight would be determined by the Wheel.

 

Another thought that occurred to me as I wrote this.  The only direct intervention of the Wheel we have seen in the series comes right after the Horn of Valere is blown.  This is hardly likely to be coincidence.  Perhaps the Horn, in addition to summoning the Heroes, somehow gives the Wheel "license" to intervene directly for a little while.  It would be similar to the ta'veren effect, except that a ta'veren does not give the Wheel license for impossible effects, only extremely unlikely ones.  The effects that are allowed by the blowing of the Horn (like visions in the sky) would be otherwise impossible.

[Chel Vanin]

Question: Were Rand and Ishy actually floating in the sky and fighting at the end of TGH or were they on the ground but the Horn magnified the fight to be seen in the sky? How did rand end up in that courtyard where Min found him, and then dragged him to that room?

 

/end hijack

[Majsju]

Question: Were Rand and Ishy actually floating in the sky and fighting at the end of TGH or were they on the ground but the Horn magnified the fight to be seen in the sky? How did rand end up in that courtyard where Min found him, and then dragged him to that room?

 

/end hijack

 

They were on the ground. The Wheel caused the fight to be displayed in the sky.

 

And I notice that the old misconception has returned here...

There is no built-in need for the Heroes to follow the Dragon banner. That was something unique for the particular moment at Falme. Even if it is not explicitly stated, I think we can safely assume that as well was a result of the Wheel taking an active role, in order to force Rands hand so that he would proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn, something we know the Wheel demanded.

[Jethro]

The other Heroes know that the Dragon is (in principle) tied to the Horn because he spends his "death" in TAR.

 

Just because someone waits in TAR between death and rebirth doesnt necessarily mean they are bound to the Horn. Is Hopper a Hero?

[Mr Ares]

The other Heroes know that the Dragon is (in principle) tied to the Horn because he spends his "death" in TAR.

Just because someone waits in TAR between death and rebirth doesnt necessarily mean they are bound to the Horn. Is Hopper a Hero?

No, Hopper is a wolf. But humans have an afterlife, Heroes wait in T'a'r. So, yes, he is bound to the Horn.

[CUBAREY]

No, Hopper is a wolf. But humans have an afterlife, Heroes wait in T'a'r. So, yes, he is bound to the Horn.

 

What proof do we have that the Dragon soul spends its time between lives in T'a'r. All we really know is that the heroes and the Dragon soul have interacted many times in previous lives. We do not even no if this interaction happens in the flesh or only when the heroes are brought into the world in spirit through the use of the Horn.

 

A second issue is the banner. We can pretty well assume that the particular banner hidden in the "eye of the world" was Lewis Therin's personnal banner made in the AOL. However, the fact that the Aides Sadie in the Age of Legends included it in the eye of the world indicates that the term Dragon is associated with the Rand/Therin soul throughout the ages.

 

What's most interesting about the particular details of the calling of the heroes we are discussing is the fact that they followed the Dragon (and the Dragon banner) and not Mat who sounded the horn. Is this because they will only follow the Dragon or that they will follow he who sounds the horn except when the Dragon is alive. This is important as the horn may have other uses not associated with the fighting of the last battle in which case a daerk friend could utilize the horn to give his side an advantage but just not in the last battle.

[Nightstrike]

 

What proof do we have that the Dragon soul spends its time between lives in T'a'r. All we really know is that the heroes and the Dragon soul have interacted many times in previous lives. We do not even no if this interaction happens in the flesh or only when the heroes are brought into the world in spirit through the use of the Horn.

From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

 

A second issue is the banner. We can pretty well assume that the particular banner hidden in the "eye of the world" was Lewis Therin's personnal banner made in the AOL. However, the fact that the Aides Sadie in the Age of Legends included it in the eye of the world indicates that the term Dragon is associated with the Rand/Therin soul throughout the ages.

Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004:

 

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

 

 

[Yllek]

So, all we have that tells us that the heros of the horn follow whomever sounds it is the conventional wisdom of the Aes Sedai, who we all know DON'T know all that there is to know.  Not to mention that even in the Age of Ledgends, the horn wasn't sounded.  My guess is that the Aes Sedai (and also darkfriends/forsaken) don't really know what the properties of the horn are.

 

What we KNOW is that the hearos follow the Dragon and the banner, if both are present.  We don't really know (with any degree of certainty) anything else about it. 

[Nightstrike]

So, all we have that tells us that the heros of the horn follow whomever sounds it is the conventional wisdom of the Aes Sedai, who we all know DON'T know all that there is to know.  Not to mention that even in the Age of Ledgends, the horn wasn't sounded.  My guess is that the Aes Sedai (and also darkfriends/forsaken) don't really know what the properties of the horn are.

 

What we KNOW is that the hearos follow the Dragon and the banner, if both are present.  We don't really know (with any degree of certainty) anything else about it. 

 

From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

A: *Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it.  (I took this to imply that Moir was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)  However, she *is* correct in that whoever sounds the horn "controls the Heroes."  [exact quote] (I started to get confused at this point.  Is Moir right or is she wrong?  What's he trying to tell me?)

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the horn?"

A:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."  [1] (This elicited a _pronounced_ Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me--"A *WHAT*?!?"--but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean

something entirely different.)

I don't know if he answered to quickly when he talked about the "rift". On the other hand, what is a "rift" and what effects would it have?

[Yllek]

I did not know that, thanks.  It would be interesting to know what word RJ used where the author here inserted "[rift]", wouldn't it?

 

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the horn?"

A:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."  [1] (This elicited a _pronounced_ Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me--"A *WHAT*?!?"--but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean

something entirely different.)

I don't know if he answered to quickly when he talked about the "rift". On the other hand, what is a "rift" and what effects would it have?

[jsbrads]

overcomplicating

 

Horn sounder directs spirit heros

 

Crazy Ishy/Ba'alzamon speaks with Rand in dreams book 1&2 and says we have fought this fight over and over (true) Sometimes Rand joins DO (false).

The only time Hawkwing could have fought Lew Therin was when the living person was good and the horn was in the hands of Dark.

Horn sealed in Saidin since AoL, so the only logical inference is that Hawkwing in end of Hunt Horn is refering to a life before he was reborn as Hawkwing, that means being reborn updates your soul profile on Facebook, oops I meant world of dreams.

 

Balefire a hero? can't happen! When you earn a permanent place as a Hero "tied to the wheel" the pattern will weave the world such that a contract Forsaken balefirer will never reach a hero target. Some ppl trip on a grassy patch and break their neck in the fall. "The pattern weaves out the heros for its purpose."

Birgitte will eventually get back on track, probably heroically die next book, so she can meet GC in near future when she is reborn soon after. The pattern knew that all along and that is why it allowed Moggie to yank Birgitte out of world of dreams.

 

Trust the Pattern 

[MikeRiley]

Mat was the Horn sounder and he was just about ignored after Perrin brought out the Dragon Banner.

 

The only time I can see Hawkwing fighting with (meaning alongside, not against) Lews Therin would be at the Last Battles. Hawkwing recognizes Lews Therin, but they didn't meet once in the Age of Legends when Lews Therin was alive. They didn't meet once while the Horn went unsounded through that age and the next (until Mat of course, but Rand was already alive then). They could have met in TAR, but if that was all it was then there's no reason why they would have to follow the Dragon Banner instead of the Dragon when the Horn is sounded at Falme.

 

It seems to me the Horn wasn't meant to be sounded at Falme and Rand wasn't meant to be alive when it was. Since Rand was alive, it bugged the pattern and they had to follow his banner instead.

[Majsju]

Hawkwing recognizes Lews Therin, but they didn't meet once in the Age of Legends when Lews Therin was alive. They didn't meet once while the Horn went unsounded through that age and the next (until Mat of course, but Rand was already alive then). They could have met in TAR, but if that was all it was then there's no reason why they would have to follow the Dragon Banner instead of the Dragon when the Horn is sounded at Falme.

 

It seems to me the Horn wasn't meant to be sounded at Falme and Rand wasn't meant to be alive when it was. Since Rand was alive, it bugged the pattern and they had to follow his banner instead.

 

Where did you get the idea that Hawkwing and LTT never met during the AOL? We know nothing about Hawkwings incarnations before the one that gave him his current name.

 

As for why the Heroes must follow the banner at Falme, that has been covered in depth oh so many times. It is a result of the unique circumstances at Falme, same as the Wheel displaying Rands fight with Ishy in the sky.

[nnokwoodeye]

We don't really know how the previews third ages looked. As far as we know mat wasn't in them at all. Maybe Hawkwing fought the dragon because he was the son of nine moons and was destined to marry Birgitte, rand childhood friend (she didn't like it, of course, because she was in love with the aged gleeman Gaidal Cain :D)

 

The way I see it, people are not always reborn in the same situation. The range of the roles they could play grows over time. They start as little Extras (dead farmer number 2) and if the wheel find them useful they get "speaking roles" the next time around (instead of someone who got demoted), and if they won't screw up they might one cycle become important enough to blow the horn and become A-list stars.

So mat using the horn in falme wasn't a mistake it was just natural evolution of the pattern.

 

I got this idea from Ewin Finnegar, who was there when the boys got their coins from Moiraine. I was sure that he was also supposed to be a part of it, only nothing happened. At first it seemed weird to me that he was "marked" for no reason, but then I thought that maybe he wasn't marked for this round. maybe the wheel was just preparing an "understudy" for the next cycle in case one of the new actors wouldn't live up for its expectation.

Imagine that Elaida was the original "Moiraine", but because she was too "red" she got recast to a different role, and Moiraine, who could have been the original Egwene (assuming there was an "Egwene" back then), got her gig.

 

[nnokwoodeye]

By the way, if LTT and Hawkwing hanged together in tar, what did they talk about?

 

LTT: "nice empire arty. to bad you became paranoid and ruined it."

Hawkwing: "at least I didn't went insane and killed all my family"

LTT: "nice comeback. Want to go spy on some aes sedai dreams?"

 

[nnokwoodeye]

By the way, if LTT and Hawkwing hanged together in tar, what did they talk about?

 

LTT: "nice empire arty. to bad you became paranoid and ruined it."

Hawkwing: "at least I didn't went insane and killed all my family"

LTT: "nice comeback. Want to go spy on some farm girls dreams?"

 

[Mr Ares]

The only time Hawkwing could have fought Lew Therin was when the living person was good and the horn was in the hands of Dark.

How do you come to that conclusion? It could happen when both are alive.

 

By the way, if LTT and Hawkwing hanged together in tar, what did they talk about?

Well, they exist in the World of Dreams, a world where you can make things real simply by imagining them, and thus have access to an unlimited supply of alcohol and marijuana. You really think they'd be that coherent?

LTT: Dude, you totally conquered that country!