questions regarding mat

[cauthon123]

first of all, shouldnt the link between mat and the horn be broken since he "died" in rhuidean? but i guess no one except the presumed good guys know about this... however, lanfear did mention breaking rands ward that guards his dreams in tSR. if this happens, there is a very very very feeble chance of someone knowing about the horn.

 

secondly, does "abandon half the light to save the world" mean that mat would actually become kind of a darkfriend, i mean, lanfear and rand could "supplant the great lord and challenge the creator"- as lanfear puts it - with the choedan kal (was that the proper spelling?). if that was a possibility, then such a chance might come to mat, true, he cant channel, but he can plan battles, and so could demandred, almost better than LTT himself, also, he has cause to team up with mat, as ive observed, he despises moridin and cyndane, but on the other hand, he worships DO with so much passion that he thinks DO is the creator himself, as i remember, in the prologue of LOC, when shaidar haran offers him the job of nae'blis, he falls to his knees and cries with joy, now, this shows us 2 things. one. he was too happy when DO offered him that job, so when moridin became nae'blis, he would've been plenty pissed off, this would give him grounds to betray the shadow. also, this tells us, rather, it almost proves, demendreds devotion to the dark one.

 

is he still a liability as far as the shadow is concerned? is the horn still linked to mat?

id love to know what you guys think

 

[Krakalakachkn]

My guess is that since Mat was revived and continues to live, his link with the horn survived too.  At the very least, if the link is broken, no one has any idea that it has been broken, so no one is going to attempt to use it except for Mat.

 

Also, in regards to abandoning half the light to save the world, that saying could very well be dealing with the Seanchan.  Since he will marry Tuon, Daughter of the 9 moons, he very well could enlist the help of the Seanchan to save the world.  They could be considered one half of the world since they live across the sea, and most people would consider them to not walk in the light.  So Mat might abandon his half of the world and fall in with the Seanchan, thereby abandoning half the light.

 

Well, there's my two cents.  I could easily be wrong on both counts, but thats what I think.  Hope that helps

[Mr Ares]

This really belongs in the sections of the site that discuss Wheel of Time, for future reference. But, to answer your questions: Mat didn't die in Rhuidean, he was hanging long enough to be almost dead. He died in Caemlyn, which was undone by the balefire. Giving up half the light of the world probably refers to him losing an eye - to back this up, there are also visions of him with some sort of wound on his face and mytholgical parallels with Odin, who lost an eye. Demandred doesn't think Shai'tan is the Creator, he knows the difference, and he wasn't offered the position of Nae'blis.

[cauthon123]

yeah, demandread was offered nae'blis : read the prologue to lord of chaos again, shaidar haran takes him to the pit of doom and offers him nae'blis. also, yeah i thought the same about mat at first :)....that makes more sense, and again, demandred literally knelt down and cried outta joy when he was offered the post of nae'blis, thus showing his devotion to DO and also ihs joy at achieving that feat, also he is probably the smartest of the chosen....and, if rand somehow gaons an advantage over DO, it would give him grounds to betray the shadow, just like how he betrayed the light in the age of legends...he was right in doing so, DO never died, only sealed, so u could say that he was really smart. although he was driven by the jealousy he had for LTT, being less charming, always being second to him and all that. this might happen again, thus nullyfying all that i have said above :P...lol

 

[cauthon123]

and yeah, he actually died in FoH, sorry for that mistake :P

[Mr Ares]

yeah, demandread was offered nae'blis : read the prologue to lord of chaos again

The title was waved around in front of him as a carrot, an incentive, but it wasn't actually offered to him. Graendal did something to get herself all but promised the title, but she wasn't offered it either. I suggest you re-read.

also he is probably the smartest of the chosen.

I really don't see that. Demandred seems just as blinded by his own ego and desires as the others. Ishamael is probably the smartest.

if rand somehow gaons an advantage over DO, it would give him grounds to betray the shadow

No. Demandred joined the Shadow through jealousy of his great rival, Lews Therin. As did Sammael and Be'lal. He would not turn his back on vengeance, on immortality, on power to join up with the man he despises. The Shadow kills those who desert. The Light has no love for him. He will not turn against the Shaodw, because he has nothing to gain and everything to lose from such an action. At best, he will run when he can no longer fight, and try to live long enough to pick up the fight another day.

[cauthon123]

if ishamael was really smart, he wouldn't have channeled his way to being half insane. He is certainly not as smart as demendred, who knows enough to channel only when necessary as he is quoted to think so during the cleansing of saidin, was it?(although he nearly got killed by Jahar, i think :P, lol) dont quite remember, but he definitely says so, or rather thinks so, as far as i can remember also, with the power through DO, which is described to be much more addictive, this decision is probably one of the most wise ones any guy who is with the shadow can make. but yeah, his incentives are very less when it comes to betraying the dark one, what you say there is a 100% right, so that idea went to hell huh :P. but i really would like to see demandred as a good guy, i really like his character. and he is in no way blinded by ego, he isn't insane, or dead once like Ba'lzamon/Moridin. he is a general, and he has proved that he is wise time and again in the past, ie, before the breaking

 

1) he made the right choice in betraying the light, as he wouldve eventually ended up dead or insane. Also, need i remind you, DO was never killed, only sealed. If not for this fact, the shadow would have won

2) He won countless battles for the light before turning to the shadow because he wasn't made commander of the forces of light. to be honest, i wouldve done the same :P

3)He also acted as governor over conquered territory several times.

 

i guess the only bad thing was that he gambled way too much and took risks he souldn;t have taken, also, yeah, i get the jealousy thing. ;)

 

also, he hates sammael, well, close to hating him, because he wanted to kill LTT too.

not to mention, he has an alliance with semirhage and mesaana. this ensures that while all the other chosen might turn on each other, the 3 , well, 2 of them will wait as they kill themselves, at least, i would imagine that they would hope so,  so in my opinion, demandred is truly amazing

[Chel Vanin]

and he is in no way blinded by ego

 

You serious?

 

and he has proved that he is wise time and again in the past, ie, before the breaking

 

1) he made the right choice in betraying the light, as he wouldve eventually ended up dead or insane. Also, need i remind you, DO was never killed, only sealed. If not for this fact, the shadow would have won

2) He won countless battles for the light before turning to the shadow because he wasn't made commander of the forces of light. to be honest, i wouldve done the same :P

3)He also acted as governor over conquered territory several times.

 

Wise? Pragmatic maybe, but wise? Thats a stretch.

 

1. To say he made the "right" choice in betraying the Light is certainly debatable, considering if the DO does win he breaks time and remakes the world in his image. My personal belief here is that if the DO does this there is no world to rule over in immortality. I think if the DO wins, the world ends, but thats just my speculation.

 

2. Well I guess thats just your view... but I'm inclined to say that Demandred should quit being such a little person and just accept that maybe LTT is a bit better than him at some things. Too late for that I suppose but still, 2nd best general in the world isn't enough?

 

3. And fed all occupants to the Trollocs.

 

 

demandred is truly amazing

 

I simply disagree.

[Cillian]

if ishamael was really smart, he wouldn't have channeled his way to being half insane.

 

The male forsaken were all given protection from the Taint by the DO

and if I remember correctly, the True Power doesn't corrode the mind, it's just highly addictive.

Ishy's unhinged, but not from channeling..... or is he even unhinged?? Maybe he's just.... ahead of the curve  :)

 

He is certainly not as smart as demendred, who knows enough to channel only when necessary as he is quoted to think so during the cleansing of saidin, was it?

 

The force he was up against was targeting places where they felt someone channeling, he would have been incinerated if he was any bit careless. That doesn't make him smarter than Ishy, just means he has some common sense.

 

as far as i can remember also, with the power through DO, which is described to be much more addictive, this decision is probably one of the most wise ones any guy who is with the shadow can make.

 

Which is a decision he doesn't have to make because the DO only allows Ishy to channel the True Power.

 

but i really would like to see demandred as a good guy, i really like his character.

 

He'd be executed on sight for the crimes of his past.

 

and he is in no way blinded by ego,

 

His reason for turning to the dark in the first were totally ruled by ego. His ego was hurt that LTT was that bit better than him and flipped sides out jealousy.

[Casco]

I would say that they are folish all of them, the forsakens. If they even have tryed to work together, they would have won allredy. Their ego and desires makes them loose every singel try to kill Rand, Mat or Perrin (at least so far) The same goes with the faliure to kill Egy, Elain and Ny.

This isnt smart behaviour imo, ok they want to be the only one to rule besides the DO, But wouldnt it be smarter to fix that after TG? Now they die one after one...and dont get it.

 

Mat did die, but got revived from Rands balefire. If anyone get revived by balefire, the death did not happen, the bound to the horn was never broken.

Giving up half the light to the save the world, my guess is that Mat will "Pay" one eye to get Moorain free. My guess is that the woman, dead and gone and back again must be Moorain, and she must support Rand in TG. Mat will "pay" one eye to free Moorain, she will get back to Rand (ooohhh i will love to read about that part) and they will fight in TG.

[Tumeric]

if ishamael was really smart, he wouldn't have channeled his way to being half insane.

He has demonstrated that he is fully aware of the cost involved in using the True Power, and his POV has shown that he considers it fair trade.

 

The former Betrayer of Hope takes a philosophical stance on the battle between the Light and the Shadow, but has also shown no compunction in making personal sacrifice in service of the Dark One, taking wounds and ultimately dying fighting Rand al'Thor.  Only partially trapped in the seals apparently, he used his partial freedom to further the Dark One's cause; his tainting on some of the post-Breaking world's greatest heroes and icons - Hawkwing, and Farstrider for a couple of quick examples - and the Trolloc wars, his hand in the Black Ajah all point to a clever unit, who is finding his satisfaction in, and limiting his ambition to, the rewards of service to the Shadow.

 

Could it be that he's smart enough to realise and exploit that death is no impediment to service to his master?  Certainly, he is Nae'blis, despite having  failed in his attempts to kill Rand... the others among his peers seem preoccupied with their own agendas...

 

Anyway, closer to the topic... it's not been expressly stated anywhere I've seen, whether or not Mat's death at Rahvin's hand, and his subsequent "reinstatement" via Rand's Balefiring of Rahvin had any effect on his bond with the Horn... indeed, the Horn's place in the story has seemingly paled into insignificance, save for its discovery being another sign of the imminence of Tarmon Gaidon.  In Asmodean's POV in FoH, he was aware of what had happened (not through memory, but by piecing it together with his knowledge of balefire and other Forsaken-ish stuff from Ages ago), and personally considered it a rebirth of sorts, although as a concept balefire is less of a restoration than a rewinding if I have the right of it.

 

I guess we'll find out if someone tries to have a toot on the Horn, and gets nothing but bad music...

[mb]

About Mat's link to the Horn, it is likely still intact based on how balefire works.

 

About "half the light of the world to save the world", like others told that refers to loosing one of his eyes.  There are several prophecies about it besides the Aelfinn; here they are.

-Min's viewing of eye on a balance scale.  (Eye of the World Chapter 15)

-Egwene's dream of Mat placing his left eye on a balance scale.  (Dragon Reborn Chapter 25)

Mat becoming a sort of darkfriend, that would be improbable; the only way would be by Compulsion from a Forsaken or some other darkfriend channeler, and his medallion would protect him from it.

 

 

About Nae'blis, it to me seems not based on being the smartest but on being the most loyal to the Dark One.

 

[cauthon123]

mb, yeah, ure probably as right as any on the eye and darkfriend thing. it does seem a bit out there for mat to become a half dark friend, so to speak. and ishmael really did go mad, or atleast, lanfear says so wwhen she talks with sammeal and co. at the starting of fires of heaven, although lanfear's statement may be a bit unreliable, the fact that the true power is addictive is pointed out over and over by the forsaken. also, ba'lzamon pretended like two people :P so i still stand firm on saying that "ishy" is/was half mad. But, in regard to the true source thing, can it be used to cure insanity because of the taint? because in the beginning of tEoTW, ishamael "heals" lews therin

[cauthon123]

if it can be used to cure insanity, then ba'lzamon could have just "ordered" one of the male forsaken to cure him.

[cauthon123]

and yes, chel vanin, i AM serious.

 

also, yeah, he would be executed because of his crimes. and what mb says about mats link to the horn is certainly true as far as i know.

[Dmitri]

if it can be used to cure insanity, then ba'lzamon could have just "ordered" one of the male forsaken to cure him.

 

Ba'alzamon = Ishamael. It is a Trollock name for Ishy.

 

His madness has nothing to do with Taint. Read the books properly...

 

And why should any male Forsaken obey him? They know who Ba'alzamon is.

 

[Mr Ares]

demandred literally knelt down and cried outta joy when he was offered the post of nae'blis

He was kneeling before that. And the crying might have a little something to do with being in the presence of his god.

 

if ishamael was really smart, he wouldn't have channeled his way to being half insane.

Why not? There is, as the saying goes, a thin line between genius and insanity. Apparently Ishay prefers to keep a foot on either side. But it is quite clear that he is fully aware of the associated costs of using TP and considers it worth it. Also, he owns his madness, it doesn't own him. One could also point out the likelihood of Shai'tan destroying the world on his release, which Ishamael believes. If He does, then Demandred is just another fool, and will die because of it.

He is certainly not as smart as demendred

Enough with the blind worship of Demandred.

who knows enough to channel only when necessary

They are both aware of the risks. It is a matter of different priorities.

and he is in no way blinded by ego

He is. They all are.

he has proved that he is wise

Hardly.

 

1) he made the right choice in betraying the light, as he wouldve eventually ended up dead or insane. Also, need i remind you, DO was never killed, only sealed. If not for this fact, the shadow would have won

Well, that's a pretty big fact. "If it wasn't for losing, they'd have been victorious." Also, made the right choice? If him and others like him hadn't turned to the Shadow there would be no War, there would, in all probability, be no tainting of the Source, and no Breaking. It was him and his associates that brought that destruction on the world. And what is his driving force now? Jealousy, for a man dead the best part of four millennia, an obsessive desire to kill a man he has never met, who is the reincarnation of his real foe. What a hollow, empty existence. He brought himself time, but he will lose, and die anyway. He has gained nothing. How is it the right choice? I'd rather be dead.

2) He won countless battles for the light before turning to the shadow because he wasn't made commander of the forces of light. to be honest, i wouldve done the same :P

Traitor. He won battles? That is his job. He won a lot of them? Good, but so did a lot of guys. Like LTT. There can only be one guy at the top, why should it be him? And by turning his back on the Light, he still didn't get the top job, so far as we know. He gained nothing. What if other commanders throughout history had done that? What if Monty had decided that if he couldn't be in charge of the Allies, he would see if Hitler had any vacancies. What if Slim had decided that he was sick of not being given the respect he deserved, leading Britain's "Forgotten Army", and so handed Burma to the Japs on a silver platter? What if Konev, Rokossovsky, and so on, decided that Zhukov was a git and the Wehrmacht was preferable? Or Haig decided that he was buggered if he would take orders from Foch and left the doorway to France wide open. What if Washington's subordinates thought that he was unfit to lead, and sold America out to the British (a man can dream), or Grant, pissed off at not getting the top job right off the bat, turned on Lincoln and assured Southern Independence, or any number of other instances throughout history? Demandred sold the world down the river because the top job was offered to a guy who was better than him and he couldn't stomach that fact. He should have acted like a man, not a child, and swallowed his pride and done his duty.

3)He also acted as governor over conquered territory several times.

And resigned, because it didn't give him the opportunity he wanted to kill LTT. And what atrocities did he commit in the meantime? How many men, women and children were fed to the Trollocs on his watch, how many were dragged off for Aginor's experiments, Semi's pleasure? How much blood does he have on his hands? Because his ego couldn't accept him only being second best. What do you see to admire in this man? He was a skilled soldier, and a piss poor excuse for a human being.

 

If they even have tried to work together, they would have won allredy.

RJ specifically mentioned their failure at the Cleansing was due to them acting as individuals, and that if they had linked they would have won.

 

I guess we'll find out if someone tries to have a toot on the Horn, and gets nothing but bad music...

Given what we know of balefire, his death was undone, it never happened. So, most likely the Horn is still linked. However, even if it is not, most probably believe it is, so will act accordingly - they will give it to Mat to sound, as he can use it and they can't.

 

About Nae'blis, it to me seems not based on being the smartest but on being the most loyal to the Dark One.

When disloyalty=death, being as loyal as possible is a fairly smart move.

[Krakalakachkn]

well said Ares