Teaching....

[Samudor]

This may have been/more than likely was spoken about already-

 

What speculation/predictions can you guys offer on what exactly Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand and the Ashaman?

[mb]

Maybe it would be manners since that seems what she dwells on.

If it is something else, it could be almost anything.

 

[agaga]

As far as rand goes she's pledged to teach him to laugh and to cry again.

 

Not sure about the asha'man though maybe the same? their a hard bunch

[Roxinos]

Essentially what the previous two posters have said.

 

Rand and the Ashaman have forgotten how to be human. They've rejected their emotions, their humanity, thinking that they don't need it and that it is a hindrance.

[Samudor]

Thanks. I was thinking something like that myself- especially in Rand's case.

[Mercer]

While I agree with the commonly held belief that it's "Laughter and tears" and all that whatnot, I still hope it's held to a small chapter. First of all, because many of the "good" Asha'man seem to remember their humanity just fine. Logain's cronies were laughing, Narishma and co. seem to have their little flings going on...and who cares if Rand can't bloody well laugh?! Cadsuane annoys the hell out of me, and I know I'm not alone there.

 

"Hey guys, I know I'm showing up in the later books, I haven't really done anything significant, but I'm the answer to everyone's problems! Stop being arrogant, everyone, so I can be doubly so! I must teach the person who was just told he has to save the world -- using a bunch of meddling self-serving wanks -- to laugh again, because clearly that's important!"

 

Meh. She can do whatever she wants as long as she dies in AMOL.  :)

[Mr Ares]

I must teach the person who was just told he has to save the world to laugh again, because clearly that's important!"

Or else his victory may be darker than his defeat, he will save the world from the Shadow and I will try to make sure it doesn't need saving from him, etc., etc.

[Jethro]

I think teaching them to laugh and cry is a metaphor for showing them how to deal with their emotions again, to feel human again; to become strong, not hard, as Sorilea said. Rand loves Elayne, Min and Aviendha, yet he refuses to let it show. He never talks about his own problems, and as a side effect he has stopped showing emotion, almost stopped feeling altogether. The last time I remember Rand showing any real feelings was when he cried while reading Moiraines letter, and even then he didnt realise he was weeping until Aviendha pointed it out. A hard man doesnt feel much, and so if he did eventually break he wont recover. A strong man can feel, be broken, and recover perhaps stronger than he was. Thats what Rand needs the Ashaman to be like, what he needs to be like himself, in order for his victory to be better than the Shadows. I think half of Rands mental issues are his own doing, at least through the middle-ish of the series, yet if he was stronger mentally then he wouldnt have beaten himself up about his problems half as much.

[Mercer]

Or else his victory may be darker than his defeat, he will save the world from the Shadow and I will try to make sure it doesn't need saving from him, etc., etc.

Which sounds really nice and flowery...but really doesn't make a lot of sense. How in heck is his victory going to be darker than his defeat, hahaha?! Seriously: he's not demented. He knows what he's doing. I think I can safely say himdefeating the dark one would be better than NOT defeating the dark one. He knows the Asha'man need seeing to, he knows he's slowly deteriorating, he knows the nations need seeing to...and he's done some of these things. Boohoo, the man can't cry. It isn't and won't affect his ability to do what he has to: save the world, and as much of it's peoples as he can.

 

Did he not create centers of learning to this end? Set up good rulers and stewards? Make amends -- to a degree -- with the Rebel Aes Sedai? Cleanse Saidin? Guard/block the waygates? Destroy Shadar Logoth? So if he can't cry after the Last Battle, assuming he survives, he's suddenly going to become an evil unfeeling tyrant and destroy the world? Not likely.

 

Though these things are likely just a problem I have with the creation of Cadsuane as a character, so not really applicable. I just don't like a super-powered, immune-to-the-power, doesn't scare at all character being created 3 quarters of the way through the series. And to that end I don't buy, on a personal level, that Rand neeeeeeds to be in touch with his inner self blahblahblah in order to get the job done. To help himself? Sure. To help the world? BS. Might end up being how it turns out, but it's one of the only parts of the series I don't at all like.

[MikeRiley]

He's becoming colder and colder and is beginning to think he doesn't need people. If he wins the Last Battle but is as arrogant as he's becoming he will cause more damage than the battle could. He could find himself taking Illian to war over an insult, or crushing those who wouldn't help in the Last Battle. Or maybe he'd think (again) "I'm the Dragon Reborn!" and conquer all the known world? Yeah, he's doing good right now but you can tell he's getting pretty frustrated with the nations who haven't submitted to him. Heartless is the word for it. He even admits to himself multiple times that he sees pawns instead of people now, even his friends.

 

Cadsuane.. I've been thinking she's part of a secret order inside the White Tower. Not a secret Ajah but her thoughts in Crossroads of Twilight suggest the farm she was at was something more than a quiet retirement. She earned those ter'angreal one at a time there. From who and why? It wasn't for the hell of it, that's for sure. She shows up when the false dragons appeared and again when Rand did. It has to be a task passed down from one Aes Sedai to another in secret. I'd go as far as to say she might not even be bound by the oath rod anymore.

[Luckers]

Which sounds really nice and flowery...but really doesn't make a lot of sense. How in heck is his victory going to be darker than his defeat, hahaha?! Seriously: he's not demented. He knows what he's doing. I think I can safely say himdefeating the dark one would be better than NOT defeating the dark one. He knows the Asha'man need seeing to, he knows he's slowly deteriorating, he knows the nations need seeing to...and he's done some of these things. Boohoo, the man can't cry. It isn't and won't affect his ability to do what he has to: save the world, and as much of it's peoples as he can.

 

Did he not create centers of learning to this end? Set up good rulers and stewards? Make amends -- to a degree -- with the Rebel Aes Sedai? Cleanse Saidin? Guard/block the waygates? Destroy Shadar Logoth? So if he can't cry after the Last Battle, assuming he survives, he's suddenly going to become an evil unfeeling tyrant and destroy the world? Not likely.

 

But entirely possible--whats more significant though is would he win if he continues as he is--already he has gotten to the stage where he doesn't listen, where his pride blinds him to the right course for the good of the world--for instance in Tear when Bera brings him the agreement with the rebels and he goes balistic because she agreed to their titles being reinstated--why? Because it was important to the world that there is one more or one less selfish noble? No. Because they defied Rand Al'thor and them keeping their titles did so again.

 

He jeopradized what was important--unity in the light--for the sake of petty pride. And i raise this specifically as the incident that shows the success of Cadsuane's methods--none of the others could have pulled his head out of his ass, but she managed it--managed to get him to reign in his emotions and think about the situation objectively.

 

The reality is that Rand is beginning to mistake his desire with his motivation--he is fighting for the world, genuinely fighting, but he is beginning to mistake what he wants to have happen with what must be done. By which i mean he is placing increased significance on his own ideas, as a result of that when someone goes against him he cannot think objectively of what they might be trying to achieve or what their goals are--to go against him is to go against what needs to be done to save the world, therefore their actions are driving against whats good for the world... only its not so simple as that. People with good intentions can differ greatly on how those intentions are acted upon. And yes, Rand needs to be the decider, but he is becoming blind to what other people suggest, relying solely on his own methods and answers--but no one man has all the answers, and he NEEDS advice. He NEEDS the help and knowledge of others.

 

That spells disaster. He is very bright, and succeeds at what he does--but what of the one time when he doesn't? When the world hangs in the balance thats too great a risk.

 

Cadsuane, for the first time since Moiraine died, has managed to make him hear her. Her methods have been embarrassing, but there was no way around that. He wouldn't have listened otherwise. And lets not forget that her methods are not her personality. She models her address to fit the person, and has no patience with fools--so Alanna, who acts a fool gets treated as one, whilst Verin who controls herself gets treated with respect and spoken to as an adult. Rand in large part gets treated a fool because he has been acting a fool.

 

That's the answer to your worry about the Asha'men who are in control of themselves--she'll not do the same to them as she will to Rand or Logain--you can even see it, she never uses that tone with Flinn.

 

Thats what she's teaching them--not to laugh and cry, or even just be human. She's teaching them maturity. Emotional maturity. Which includes laughing and crying as much as it does controlling rage and temper tantrums.

[Mercer]

^ As far as the embarassment to Rand bit (and the situation in Tear), I get that; I haven't said anything about her not being a good addition to Rand's little power squad. In fact, she more directly helps him when cleansing Saidin and the encounter with Semirhage (though I wonder how Min would react if she knew it was her fault he couldn't simply jump out of the way?  ;D)

 

Nor do I really worry about the Asha'man. She has detected (as everyone else does) on several occasions that many of the Asha'man are actually unstable/ridiculously on edge, and she obviously has no need to do anything about them.

 

My beef is with that last bit, teaching maturity?! Thats a bit rich. Seriously. She can help him not be a proud jerk when he may make bad decisions, but this one "Laughter and tears" bit is waaaay over the top. Can we honestly see him suddenly going nuts with pride and killing everyone? He's in control. Making some bad decisions without someone there, maybe, but I seriously doubt urging Rand to stop bottling things up will do anything on a large scale. My problem is, Min never said the world is doomed if Rand doesn't learn what Cadsuane has to teach him. She said Rand "needs to learn it". I don't like the assumption that Tarmon Gaidon is in trouble if Rand doesn't have a good cry. Or learn maturity.

 

Not to mention Cadsuane is dead wrong about some things. Never use balefire, eh? Alright, we'll just let the Forsaken come back each and every time they are killed. But, no, Cadsuane knows better than the person who rediscovered more weaves than any channeler living. Perhaps it should occur to someone that Rand probably is getting some guidance on these things.

[Cockta]

It's a possibility that if Rand learns to cry and laugh that he will have better chances of winning TG.

[Jethro]

Yet Rand is turning into a tyrant. The man vital to the worlds survival is turning into a villain; he forces nations to do what he needs. Like the Chosen have said (I cant remember which) Rand thinks once he has seized a nation, he thinks he can simply move on and expect no problems. Each nation, after taken, stays barely under control and this is only because it was the Dragon Reborn who took it. Imagine how many nations could potentially go into civil war once the man who seized those nations by force is no longer needed for the worlds survival. I mean, even though the world knows the Dragon Reborn intended Elayne to be Queen of Andor-he has said so many times-civil war is already on the table despite the Dragon Reborn making it clear what he intended, even before Elayne told him she would get the Throne on her own. Remember what Elayne said to Rand; If she is put on the Throne the normal way, the nation will truly be hers, but if Rand simply seized it and handed it to her on a plate, the people of Andor wouldnt look at her in the same light.

[Mr Ares]

Not to mention Cadsuane is dead wrong about some things. Never use balefire, eh? Alright, we'll just let the Forsaken come back each and every time they are killed. But, no, Cadsuane knows better than the person who rediscovered more weaves than any channeler living.

Rand doesn't use balefire to prevent the Chosen being brought back. He doesn't know a damn thing about that. Neither does Cadsuane. Given the evidence available to the both of them, Cadsuane has a bloody good point. Rand is using a weapon that, by its very nature, harms the Pattern, and he uses it with far less care than he should. So when else is she wrong?

 

he's suddenly going to become an evil unfeeling tyrant and destroy the world? Not likely.

He is already a tyrant, and he is increasingly shutting himself off from his feelings. Of course, he's probably going to be the good sort of unfeeling tyrant, that type that is so common...So actually, it is quite likely. Which is why he needs to be reconnected to his humanity.

[Luckers]

My beef is with that last bit, teaching maturity?! Thats a bit rich. Seriously. She can help him not be a proud jerk when he may make bad decisions, but this one "Laughter and tears" bit is waaaay over the top. Can we honestly see him suddenly going nuts with pride and killing everyone? He's in control. Making some bad decisions without someone there, maybe, but I seriously doubt urging Rand to stop bottling things up will do anything on a large scale. My problem is, Min never said the world is doomed if Rand doesn't learn what Cadsuane has to teach him. She said Rand "needs to learn it". I don't like the assumption that Tarmon Gaidon is in trouble if Rand doesn't have a good cry. Or learn maturity.

 

I was not speaking of him going over the top and killing people, i was talking of his effectiveness as a leader in a time of dire trouble. We arn't even speaking just of him 'having a good cry', we are speaking of him being emotionally stable enough to deal with what is going on. If all this was was him having a cry then it would be ok, but his emotional issues go more towards meglomania then they do towards apathy.

 

Can you honestly say that the emotional wellbeing of the person responsible for saving the world would not be an issue to you, were you living in the world of the Wheel?

 

Yes, what Cadsuane is dealing with is abstract, and subtle. That's why no one else has dealt with them. But you want to know their significance, look at Elaida. Strong, intelligent, willful--certain her opinion is what is good for the world because of who she is and the role she plays. Unwilling to listen to others, like Tarna. Can you not see the parallels? Yes, Elaida is way way worse than Rand--at this stage. Yet, remember in the fist book, in Caemlyn, she actually is pretty impressive, and insightful.

 

The fact is that this aspect of Rand mental ability is significant. And Cadsuane is attending to that.

 

Not to mention Cadsuane is dead wrong about some things. Never use balefire, eh? Alright, we'll just let the Forsaken come back each and every time they are killed. But, no, Cadsuane knows better than the person who rediscovered more weaves than any channeler living. Perhaps it should occur to someone that Rand probably is getting some guidance on these things.

 

Well in this she did. To use balefire is to risk the destruction of the world--of the universe--to tell someone not to use it is not to be 'dead wrong' however useful it may be. As for guidence--you really think people realised Rand was getting guidance from a man who killed his whole family will make them respect Rand's ability to save the world?

 

Knowledge of weaves, and knowing when to employ them are two very different things. And yes, i definately trust Cadsuane over Lews Therin when it comes to the latter.

[Sab]

Not to mention the more you use balefire the more you risk the secret of it getting out.  Imagine Taim knowing that weave.

[Jethro]

I think Taim already does.

[MikeRiley]

To Taim it would be just another weapon to kill with, and one even the forsaken are hesitant to use. I don't think he has much fear of the Dark One bringing the good guys back to life so he could use any other weave he wanted to.

[Sab]

Unlikely he knows it, Forsaken aren't likely to teach him and he doesn't have an insane dead guy in his head letting him make weaves he has no idea how to make till he suddenly does it.  Course he could of read the same book Moraine did.  ;D

[Gentled Ben]

Unlikely he knows it, Forsaken aren't likely to teach him and he doesn't have an insane dead guy in his head letting him make weaves he has no idea how to make till he suddenly does it.  Course he could of read the same book Moraine did.   ;D

 

I don't think Moiraine learned it in a book; I think Vandene taught it to her because of Moiraine likely having to face Sammael and Bel'al. I believe that Balefire is one of the Greeh Ajah's "secret" weaves, much like the insect plague that Moiraine brings down on Lan in New Spring is a Blue Ajah weave. It is after her stay in Altara with Vandene and Adeleas that Moiraine shows off this new weave of hers, and with her and the party in great danger, and Vandene in retirement, perhaps she decided to break with tradition and teach the weave to a woman outside of her Ajah.

 

If Greens do not know how to weave balefire, then how else would Cadsuane know that Rand wove balefire unless she herself had seen the weave? She would have said, "What the hell was that?" rather than slapping him for risking the Pattern with a forbidden weave. At best, she would have said, "That better not have been balefire, boy," but she did not, as she was certain of what it was. Why, if it is forbidden and hence, not known (like Compulsion)? I think the best explanation is that the Greens know it.

 

Also, when the BA take the ter'angreal that weaves Balefire from the Tower, it is only Jeane Caide and Asne Zeramene, the two "Greens," whom we see wield it. It would make sense that the Battle Ajah would retain knowledge of a weave as destructive as Balefire, and it would make sense that a ter'angreal that created an Ajah's weave would be commandeered by members of that Ajah if at all possible,. It is not a stretch that Jeane and Asne might have aid, "Hey, Liandrin, that's one bad, battling weave that thing makes. Maybe you better let us Greens handle that one..."

[Luckers]

I think Taim already does.

 

Not unless he learnt it by himself. I really don't see the Forsaken teaching him that.

 

I don't think Moiraine learned it in a book; I think Vandene taught it to her because of Moiraine likely having to face Sammael and Bel'al. I believe that Balefire is one of the Greeh Ajah's "secret" weaves, much like the insect plague that Moiraine brings down on Lan in New Spring is a Blue Ajah weave. It is after her stay in Altara with Vandene and Adeleas that Moiraine shows off this new weave of hers, and with her and the party in great danger, and Vandene in retirement, perhaps she decided to break with tradition and teach the weave to a woman outside of her Ajah.

 

And yet we see Jeaine Caide and Asne Zeramene--the two Green's amongst Liandrin's crew--use the balefire ter'angreal which is dangerous. It can't even be because they wanted to keep the weave secret--Jeaine used the rod against Nynaeve when no other Black Sisters were nearby, and nearly died for it. Why would she risk her life so needlessly?

 

Besides, Moiraine didn't even know Sammael or Be'lal were in Tear and Illian--and she was quite clear about not letting Vandene in on the fact that she was standing with the Dragon, so why would Vandene have suddenly offered up this deeply forbidden weave that would see her stilled just for knowing it?

 

Her learning it from a book makes more sense. We even have another moment of a person learning a weave from a simple description--Egwene figures out how to make Cuendillar from the simple description Moghedian gave her.

 

If Greens do not know how to weave balefire, then how else would Cadsuane know that Rand wove balefire unless she herself had seen the weave? She would have said, "What the hell was that?" rather than slapping him for risking the Pattern with a forbidden weave. At best, she would have said, "That better not have been balefire, boy," but she did not, as she was certain of what it was. Why, if it is forbidden and hence, not known (like Compulsion)? I think the best explanation is that the Greens know it.

 

Cadsuane could have read descriptions of it. It makes sense that if the Aes Sedai outlaw it they retain enough information to recognise it when they see it.

 

Also, when the BA take the ter'angreal that weaves Balefire from the Tower, it is only Jeane Caide and Asne Zeramene, the two "Greens," whom we see wield it. It would make sense that the Battle Ajah would retain knowledge of a weave as destructive as Balefire, and it would make sense that a ter'angreal that created an Ajah's weave would be commandeered by members of that Ajah if at all possible,. It is not a stretch that Jeane and Asne might have aid, "Hey, Liandrin, that's one bad, battling weave that thing makes. Maybe you better let us Greens handle that one..."

 

I stand by that being a point against, not for.

 

 

[Dunderdan]

LLT was also in control until he lost it. Would be good if Cadsuane could help preventing Rand from blowing up himself and the world. Not impossible if lets say Min dies.

[Babalu]

But entirely possible--whats more significant though is would he win if he continues as he is--already he has gotten to the stage where he doesn't listen, where his pride blinds him to the right course for the good of the world--for instance in Tear when Bera brings him the agreement with the rebels and he goes balistic because she agreed to their titles being reinstated--why? Because it was important to the world that there is one more or one less selfish noble? No. Because they defied Rand Al'thor and them keeping their titles did so again.

 

He jeopradized what was important--unity in the light--for the sake of petty pride. And i raise this specifically as the incident that shows the success of Cadsuane's methods--none of the others could have pulled his head out of his ass, but she managed it--managed to get him to reign in his emotions and think about the situation objectively.

 

I'm not sure that Cadsuane is the only one who can stop Rand in the middle of a tanrum and pull his head out of his arse. Merana did it well enough when Rand was having a hissy fit over the bargain she and Rafela made for him with the Sea Folk. Cadsuane may have been  the only one willing to speak up at the time, but I wouldn't say she's the only one who can make him listen.

 

That's the answer to your worry about the Asha'men who are in control of themselves--she'll not do the same to them as she will to Rand or Logain--you can even see it, she never uses that tone with Flinn.

 

Thats what she's teaching them--not to laugh and cry, or even just be human. She's teaching them maturity. Emotional maturity. Which includes laughing and crying as much as it does controlling rage and temper tantrums.

 

I'd say that of all the Asha'men we've seen, only Rand and Narishma have any kind of mental instability (not counting Morr anyhow). Logain only lost control (if you can call it that) when Rand was ignoring his concerns about Taim and the Black Tower, everything else we've seen of him since he went to the Black Tower has shown him to be very much in control of himself. On the whole the Asha'men seem to at least as emotionally mature as Aes Sedai. Probably more so.