Taint Cleansing

[Thor]

 

 

Yes moraine says it's extremely dangerous to ask any questions touching the shadow or any silly questions both are punished severely. That then begs the question how did rand get away with asking about the LB???

 

he waved around a sword made of fire.

[agaga]

 

 

Yes moraine says it's extremely dangerous to ask any questions touching the shadow or any silly questions both are punished severely. That then begs the question how did rand get away with asking about the LB???

 

he waved around a sword made of fire.

 

and if he was anyone other than the DR it's highly likely he wouldn't have returned from that door.

[Thor]

or perhaps the finns were lucky that he didn't have some iron and music with him as well.

[agaga]

or perhaps the finns were lucky that he didn't have some iron and music with him as well.

 

I'm pretty  sure the finns know well enough how to take care of themselves. Other wise they wouldn't be able to force people into only asking three questions the people would old them hostage and make them answer all the questions they had if it was possible. So it's highly likely the finns just had there hands full with two very potent ta'veren and the DR in finnland

[Jethro]

Rands question was specifically about him surviving the Last Battle though, so I can see how he got away with it. The question only looks at Rand surviving. If Rand had asked "How can I fight the Dark One?" then there would no doubt have been consequences, but because his words made it clear that it was just his survival he wanted an answer for, it was all good. No information about the Shadow was needed to give Rand his answer.

[mb]

Other possibilities::

-Use the cleansing as a form of execution.

-Create some other object/city that is equally vile and dispose the taint in it (or a series of objects/cities whose total vileness is equal and dispose the taint in them).

 

[Luckers]

My theory has always been that Meirin/Lanfear went through the doorway in the AoL and asked how to find a source of Power that wasn't divided by gender so men and women could use it equally. She directed her research based on their answer, drilled the Bore, found the DO's prison, found the True Power as promised, and released the Shadow on an unsuspecting world. Quite dire if that's the way it happened and is what Moiraine was referencing, even if the Aes Sedai no longer remember why they should avoid asking questions related to the Shadow. They seem to have forgotten why they do a lot of what they do.

 

Firstly, the Aes Sedai remember why they should avoid asking questions touching on the shadow--specifically those that have come out mad and have revealed they asked about the Shadow. Secondly, why would the Finn's lead Mierin to the Dark One... the Finn's are not of the Shadow, and we have seen that they have a sense of self preservation. Were the Dark One released they are in as much danger as anyone else. It's illogical.

 

and if he was anyone other than the DR it's highly likely he wouldn't have returned from that door.

 

I don't know if you can sustain that. The Finn's may not want the Shadow to win, but they are very alien in nature, and we've seen nothing to suggest they hold the Dragon soul in any particular reverence.

 

I'm pretty  sure the finns know well enough how to take care of themselves. Other wise they wouldn't be able to force people into only asking three questions the people would old them hostage and make them answer all the questions they had if it was possible. So it's highly likely the finns just had there hands full with two very potent ta'veren and the DR in finnland

 

Whilst yes, they can take care of themselves, they are also at risk from fire, iron and music. Just because a person can fight doesn't mean he could stand up to a fatal dose of arsenic. Weaknesses can be exploited.

[agaga]

and if he was anyone other than the DR it's highly likely he wouldn't have returned from that door.

 

I don't know if you can sustain that. The Finn's may not want the Shadow to win, but they are very alien in nature, and we've seen nothing to suggest they hold the Dragon soul in any particular reverence.

 

You're absolutely right I can't sustain it but it's my opinion that the wheel wouldn't spin the DR out just to have him die in finnland for waving a sword around and asking questions that might have touched the shadow.

 

I know the wheel takes no actual part in keeping the Dragon alive but it's my opinion that the finns are closer to the wheel then any other sentient beings and would be able to tell the wheel didn't want them to kill this guy if they could avoid it.

 

But again that's just personal opinion I have nothing to back it up with.

 

I'm pretty  sure the finns know well enough how to take care of themselves. Other wise they wouldn't be able to force people into only asking three questions the people would old them hostage and make them answer all the questions they had if it was possible. So it's highly likely the finns just had there hands full with two very potent ta'veren and the DR in finnland

 

Whilst yes, they can take care of themselves, they are also at risk from fire, iron and music. Just because a person can fight doesn't mean he could stand up to a fatal dose of arsenic. Weaknesses can be exploited.

 

True but I doubt if one person with a little music or an iron weapon or a torch could take all of the finns there and get out alive.

[Mr Ares]

-Use the cleansing as a form of execution.

What a good idea. They didn't plan extensively for the battle, but it would have been a good idea to go back, get some prisoners, drag them into the middle of a deserted city, leave them without guards for several hours, and hope that they get killed.

-Create some other object/city that is equally vile and dispose the taint in it (or a series of objects/cities whose total vileness is equal and dispose the taint in them).

So Shadar Logoth, the city that believed the victory of the Light is all, turned its back on the Light, killed everyone inside it, and is still left in the middle of nowhere should not be where they do it - instead, they should go out of their way, waste a lot of time and effort creating similar evils, then use those evils to desroy the taint, while still leaving SL lying around. Why not just kill two birds with one stone? Why bother with these needlessly complicated solutions? Is your plan here to prove that the way Rand used was the best by virtue of every other suggestion you put forward being either essentially the same, but with a slight change (what if Rand did it wearing a dress?), or utterly bloody stupid (they could put it inside a dimensionally transcendental police box!)?

[Luckers]

True but I doubt if one person with a little music or an iron weapon or a torch could take all of the finns there and get out alive.

 

Channeling provides more than a 'torch'. That being said, why would they bind in such strong manners--making it a part of the very treaty, reiforcing it with each meeting--unless it were a very powerful tool against them.

[Gentled Ben]

I agree with Luckers. We don't know what the effects of it are, or how vulnerable to it they are. It might be like us telling another race not to bring the anthrax virus, nerve gas, or radioactive waste to any meetings with us.

[mb]

One more possibility:

-Dispose the taint in various people (preferably people who agree to the treament).

 

[Mr Ares]

-Dispose the taint in various people (preferably people who agree to the treament).

Like with the Eye of the World? Everyone died trying to clean that, and the whole of saidin is a bit bigger. So, you'd need an army of people willing to sacrifice themselves for your cause, and then waste them by dumping the taint on them, rather than using the non-fatal method which also results in destroying SL.

 

Some other possibilities:

-Ask it nicely to go away,

-Say please,

-Tell it it has one two free all expenses paid holidays in Spain,

-Threaten to show them what a Scotsman keeps under his kilt,

-The same, but while wearing high heels,

-The same, but while doing the Macarena.

[agaga]

[quote author=Mr

-Threaten to show them what a Scotsman keeps under his kilt,

 

 

I think we've finally found something that would work better than the SL cleansing if Rand only knew what a scotsmen was... Dang. :D

[mb]

No more methods come to my mind right now.

This thread may talk about the actual event.  Though if anybody thinks of other methods that could have been used, they may mention them.

 

Some thoughts about the actual event:

-The big black thing might have been caused by the combination of Mashadar and the Taint.  (Mashadar might have came out early.)

-There might have been no deaths on Rand's side if more saidar channelers were involved in the protecting circles.

-With more saidar channelers, all of the Forsaken might have been either killed or captured.

 

[MikeRiley]

I thought the big black ball was the taint itself. The taint and Shadar Logoth's evil don't mix, it'd be like water and oil. If that funnel of Saidar was open on the end inside the city and the evil of the city pumped the taint through, it could have swelled up like that.

[mb]

Some questions about the event::

-Who thought of the method?  Rand, Nynaeve, Lan, or someone else?

-Was the method used the first thought of?

-Would Rand's wound been different if one or two more channelers were in his circle?

 

[MikeRiley]

After getting cut by the Shadar Logoth dagger, Rand noticed how the two wounds throbbed seeming to pulse against each other. Later, he notices the same effect with the power in Shadar Logoth and started thinking of a way to use that. Nynaeve probably made a few improvements to the original idea.

[Mr Ares]

-Who thought of the method?

Rand

-Was the method used the first thought of?

Yes

-Would Rand's wound been different if one or two more channelers were in his circle?

No

[lkpippins]

On 2/5/2009 at 1:10 PM, mb said:

We know Rand used Mashadar to cleanse the taint.  This thread is to discuss other methods Rand might have used.

 

Methods I thought of::

-Open the Tower of Ghenjei then dispose the Taint into the world of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn.

-Do a Gateway to another world or to another dimension then dispose the Taint there.

-If the Eelfinn doorway still existed, he might have entered it and wished for the Taint to be cleansed.

-Turn the Taint into some kind of object then balefire the object.

-Same method he used but after having the rest of the captured Aes Sedia come along.

The last 3 would probably have the least problems with them, and the doorway method requiring the least effort.

 

That absurd, wrong on so many levels.

[Jsbrads2]

So I have a unique perspective.

Shadar Logoth is the only place that could work.

The connection created between SL and Saidin allowed the the two forms of evil to touch. Rand did not have a colander, he had a pipe.

The two forms of evil consumed each other, but the boundary between the two evils where they were annihilating each other created a sort of evil vacuum causing them to rush towards each other.

Rand could not wring out Saidin, he could not channel all of it thru a filter. He created a pipe of saidar, and pushed Saidin thru it. When the firehose of Saidin touched Shadar Logoth, the outer surface of that flow was covered in the Taint just like Saidin is covered in the Taint. Once the connection was made, the Taint slid down the surface of Saidin into Shadar Logoth. Once all of the Taint’s evil was destroyed by all of Shadar Logoth’s evil, the matter in that area had no more energy left and it ceased to exist.

The Eye of the World was different. I don’t know what method was used, but the Eye was not a traditional well which can be reused, but a well made by non physical matter only, perhaps purified Saidin threads of spirit, or purified elemental Saidin which collapsed or dissolved once all the Saidin was consumed. They may have used a form of Centrifuge separation, filtering thru another weave, but the weave they used really doesn’t matter. What we do know is that that weave drove them mad faster than any other channeler during the breaking, even if only due to the volume of Saidin they used to created a smaller quantity for Rand to have a pure source.  
Nynaeve’s Choden Kal failed because she was closer to her maximum when it was being used. The weakest angreal isn’t stressed by being used by the most powerful channeler. If an angreal is designed to provide a 10% increase, it provides that extra 10% to the weakest or the strongest. Stressing an angreal occurs when someone tries to channel more than they can safely use, Morgase can destroy an angreal by pulling too hard on it just like Nynaeve can. Morgase might have a separate problem using the Choden Kal.

The Forsaken would not have died if Rand brought a hundred channelers. They were too skilled, too cautious. If Rand brought more channelers, more channelers might have died, as the Forsaken would have had more targets. Sometimes a small team of your best is better than everyone at your disposal. They may have gotten in each other’s way more too. The only person who died was when Halima shocked everyone and started channeling Saidin while looking like a woman.

Rand in the Doorway, the aelfin had no reason to attack him. Technically Rand was abiding by the Agreement. The only reason they chased Rand to the door was because they were afraid their precious doorway would break. That’s why despite throwing Mat out of the door, they still answered his questions. Rand thought his sword before they could grab him, but they only intended to throw Rand out the door as soon as humanly possible. If they wanted to harm Rand, they could have let him wander out of the meeting room and he would never find his way back to the doorway. It seems the doorway in Tear had a smaller reward and no price. They enjoyed feeling emotions, reading the pattern of people’s lives.

Rhuidean’s Doorway was not used by the Aiel. And while the award was that you get what you ask for or need, the cost is higher too and you have to give something in return. Access to Mat’s memories is presumed, they may have enjoyed hanging Mat in the Tree of Life and felt his life slowly drain away over the course of a number of days, or something else.

        Perhaps the doorway from Tear lead into a more civilized population because the Aelfin were civilized by contact with people. They desired more contact so they behaved better to purchase more visitors. The Elfin in the doorway at Rhuidean are clearly more feral, and perhaps after not seeing people for over 3000 yrs, they did not know how to negotiate in a way that everyone could win.

         As to why their doorway failed when two people fell in, when the other didn’t with three people... I don’t understand.

The Pattern protected Rand many times. Rand happens to turn his head, bend down, etc. more than once as an arrow passes where his heart was. Similar with Perrin too. Mat might do it the most, taking chances. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Jsbrads2

[Harldin]

On 7/7/2020 at 5:23 PM, lkpippins said:

That absurd, wrong on so many levels.

11 years 3 months. Probably replying a touch late