Rands Survival?

[Durinax]

I believe that Rand will be killed at Shayol Ghul, but by this time Lews Therin Talamore will have taken control (cause honestly Rand doesn't know enough to fight a world war against the shadow whereas LTT has already done it and as such he will seize control when the conflict comes around). This also goes with Mins prediction "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it" but LTT is the one that actually dies, Rand is somehow resurrected on the funeral bier which is supported by ""I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

Any arguments?

[MikeRiley]

Possible spoilers..

 

 

I had it figured that the Last Battle would end somewhere halfway through the last book. The entire series is leading more up to a big fight with the Seanchan and to leave them on the continent would be leaving a giant cliffhanger if it was not completed. Their prophecies suggest they will play a role in the last battle as well so they will still be there.

 

It seemed more likely to me that Rand will be secreted away from the battle after the Dark One is destroyed, him wounded and possibly dying. It could very well be that he and some others will fake the world into thinking he was dead so he could return once he's recovered from the fight. Alivia would aid him in this. So the final last battle would be the conquest of the Seanchan.

[Jethro]

There is a popular theory that Moridin and Rand will switch bodies via the link.

[Tel Janin]

There is a popular theory that Moridin and Rand will switch bodies via the link.

 

For some reason, the thought of Ishy stuck in Rand's body with a ranting LTT just fills me with a sense of... rightness.  ;D

[Jethro]

Well you see, the viewing says Rand merges with someone and one dies. When Rand takes note of the link he thinks if either move a hairswidth they will touch; maybe they fight and during it Rand "touches" Moridin via the connection and ends up invading Moridins body. That'd be good but only if they had a cataclysmic fight beforehand, and I would want Rand to nearly lose.

 

Moridin is too good to fall as easily as the other Chosen

[Mr Ares]

For some reason, the thought of Ishy stuck in Rand's body with a ranting LTT just fills me with a sense of... rightness.   ;D

Of course, isn't it more likely that LTT would go with Rand?

 

(cause honestly Rand doesn't know enough to fight a world war against the shadow whereas LTT has already done it and as such he will seize control when the conflict comes around).

Because it turned out so well last time. "Alright, I think I figured out where I went wrong." Also, it would be a bit disappointing if we waited all this time only for Rand to be told, "move over, son, I'm saving the world." What would the point of following Rand's story have been?

LTT is the one that actually dies.

He is already dead. Also, if you're going to quote things, why not actually quote them rather than just saying something a bit like what Min said?

[Jethro]

Rand doesn't know enough to fight a world war

 

Thats why he keeps people like Bashere and Mat as close as he can. Rand acknowledges that he isnt a tactician, and he doesnt try to be; he just uses what is available to him for what he needs doing. Notice how when he has an army move, he doesnt command the army itself, he commands their leader.

[Sabio]

Possible spoilers..

 

 

I had it figured that the Last Battle would end somewhere halfway through the last book. The entire series is leading more up to a big fight with the Seanchan and to leave them on the continent would be leaving a giant cliffhanger if it was not completed. Their prophecies suggest they will play a role in the last battle as well so they will still be there.

 

It seemed more likely to me that Rand will be secreted away from the battle after the Dark One is destroyed, him wounded and possibly dying. It could very well be that he and some others will fake the world into thinking he was dead so he could return once he's recovered from the fight. Alivia would aid him in this. So the final last battle would be the conquest of the Seanchan.

 

Don't see Rand fighting the Seanchan now.  Its clear from his question in the doorway he must let them keep what they have to will the last battle.  Think if he goes all out on them he will lose the last battle. 

[Durinax]

he knows he can defeat them, but with TG looming on the horizon he decides neither side could afford that war. Which book is it in that Moridan and Rand are linked cause I cannot remember any evidence for that

[Cockta]

It's in the last books.

 

I favor the LTT taking over Rand so he can win the Last Battle. I also believe that the Last Battle (most probably near SG) will be over through half the book. After that, there is one big ass epilogue or something, and all those threads will be conncted and everything will be over with us having a good feeling in our tummy :)

[Sabio]

Problem is RJ said he wasn't a fan of tying up all lose ends.  So my guess we will be left hanging on some stuff.  Would he dare be evil enough as to never expalin who killed Asmo?  :'(  :'(

[Swigaro]

We may well not get answers to every question, but Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that we will find out who killed Asmodean, at least.

[the_Genghis_Khan]

We may well not get answers to every question, but Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that we will find out who killed Asmodean, at least.

 

You beat me to it.

[Cockta]

We may well not get answers to every question, but Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that we will find out who killed Asmodean, at least.

 

OMG Swigaro you just made my day :D

[Jethro]

So, we know that Alivia will help Rand die, and there is a hell of a lot of evidence that Rand will be alive after dying. Anyone with me on the idea that Nynaeve will resurrect him? I think maybe she will link with Flynn, with Flynn holding Callandor, and Nynaeve guiding the flows, to bring Rand back.

[Cockta]

I really don't know who will resurrect him however. I think we will have to RAFO.

[Mr Ares]

Which book is it in that Moridan and Rand are linked cause I cannot remember any evidence for that

At the end of ACoS, Rand meets a mysterious person wandering around Shadar Logoth, a person who uses TP. When they both use balefire on Mashadar, their streams cross and since then they have been linked. The wanderer is Moridin. We have seen Rand get sick when he touches saidin. In KoD he has saidin, and sees the face of the man he met in SL clearly, when previously it had appeared as a blur, and thinks the man about to throw up - his nausea mirroring Rand's. Rand also thinks that they are almost touching.

[MikeRiley]

 

Don't see Rand fighting the Seanchan now.  Its clear from his question in the doorway he must let them keep what they have to will the last battle.  Think if he goes all out on them he will lose the last battle. 

 

Yes, but my suggestion was that the Last Battle will not be the climax of the book. It will happen and then the Seanchan battle will happen in the second half.

[Jethro]

I cant see that being the case myself. Maybe at the end, after Tarmon Gaidon, there would be signs of an immediate war with the Seanchan, but I very much doubt-and will be very much dissapointed-if a Seanchan war was to steal even a shread of Tarmon Gaidons thunder. And it would.

[Sabio]

Honestly don't see alot of fighting afterwards, think the last battle will leave most armies and nations spent and in bad shape.  IMO very few after the last fight will be capable of any large fights.  There will after all be fighting everywhere as those loyal to the DO rise up and with the DO gone, those loyal to him will need to be finished off.

 

Seanchan most likely will try to hold on to what they have and get things back in order in their land.  Don't forget Mat will be their king, so would be interesting to see what changes they will under go.  Its a shame RJ never got to make the series about Mat and Tuon.  Or was that just a rumor?

[Mr Ares]

Its a shame RJ never got to make the series about Mat and Tuon. Or was that just a rumor?

He said he planned on writing something about Mat and Tuon 10 years after TG, so not a rumour.

 

Yes, but my suggestion was that the Last Battle will not be the climax of the book. It will happen and then the Seanchan battle will happen in the second half.

I've considered that myself, and I do like the idea.

[Luckers]

So, we know that Alivia will help Rand die, and there is a hell of a lot of evidence that Rand will be alive after dying. Anyone with me on the idea that Nynaeve will resurrect him? I think maybe she will link with Flynn, with Flynn holding Callandor, and Nynaeve guiding the flows, to bring Rand back.

 

Yet prohpecy also states that he will be dead, yet alive at the same time, which stands against him dying and being revived/resurrected.

 

The major difficulty with th prophecies about Rand's death is that they contradict each other. Some suggest one thing, others stand against it. Theories can be developed about one, but they are not sustained by the other.

 

To my knowledge the only theory that addresses all is my own--the bodyswap. I dont even really like it--but it fits everything.

 

Here it is, by the way--quoted from my other thread.

 

I've encountered some confusion over the nature of what the bodyswap theory is in a couple of threads and figured I'd repost it... sorry for those of you who have read it, just ignore this thread, lol.

 

The body swap theory is based on my attempt to address the issue of confliction of prophecy. People had come up with any number of explanations that addressed and answered individual prophecies, but the problem was that there were numerous prophecies that addressed the death of Rand. Together, they established a sequence of requirements for that incident. The complete list of those prophecies that are relevent are as follows.

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

 

Which possibly connects to...

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

 

And maybe this too...

 

 

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it. [tEotW]

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't. [ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

 

Quote

NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255]

 

 

Which ties to...

 

 

Quote

WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.

 

 

Quote

AELFINN ANSWER: He [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

 

 

Quote

PERRIN DREAMING: Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

Which ties to...

 

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: a beggar's staff. [tEotW]

 

 

 

In any case, individually there are answers to all. My attempt was to look at what, as a whole, they established. Too me, this sequence layed down a certain set of requirements.

 

ON RANDS DEATH.

 

1. Rand must actually die. Or, at least, some aspect of him (this ties into the definition of death in this world, which i will address later). In any case the language is fairly clear, too clear for it to be a faked death, or just people assuming he's dead in the event that he disapears. He must die.

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive that death... and i mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resusitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. The language is concurrent. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives. That forbids balefire too, by the way.

 

Now, death in this world is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. This has been shown many times, both in the nature of the Wheel itself, and specifically in the deaths and recycling of the Forsaken. Death=the death of the body.

 

ON THE BODY-SWAP

 

So, with those requirements in mind, lets look at some of the other prophecies, specifically those deal with Rand blending with another man, Rand putting on masks and becoming them, Rand being a beggar, and so on.

 

Now, Rand assumes that Min's viewing regarding him blending with another man refers to Lews Therin, yet at the time Min reacts with disbelief, as if something about that did not sit right with her. I suggest the possibility that it is in fact Mordin that this refers to.

 

The actual facilitating factor of the body-swap is the mental link that Rand forms with Moridin during the incident in which their balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth in book 7. Since then, we have seen that link grow increasingly stronger. Moreover, we have seen that the link is apparent when Rand siezes the power. Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Would Min's visions be tied to the person or the person's body, though? Min saw more visions around Birgitte than she could possible have in a lifetime. Birgitte doesn't keep her body when she dies. It might not say much against your theory but if there's a beggar's staff I'd say it's Rand's and not Moridin's.

[Tyrell]

That's a good point Mike, things in Min's visions are just associated with the person rather than being directly tied to them though.

 

I agree that the bodyswap is certainly plausable, but I too don't really like it. For a start I'd like to knbow why streams of Balefire can create a link at the soul level between two people.

 

I'd prefer something relating to The Dragon being one of the Heroes Of The Horn and/or their existence in T'A'R, but it doesn't entirely fit all of the prophecies :(

 

And I wish Min didn't have that ability of hers, she'd be much more interesting as a totally ordinary person rather than a walking plot device, but I'm really not a fan of prophecy in fantasy-fiction.

 

[lordofsoup]

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

 

and then Elayme will have a hissy fit