How does Ba'alzamon know what goes on?

[demeroe]

Hi,

 

I am doing a re-read and recently read chapter 15 of TGH, titled "Kinslayer".

During the section where Rand has his dream in which Ba'alzamon appears. Ba'alazamon says the following to Rand.

 

"Do I, Lews Therin? You know what you are, who you are. I have told you. And so have those women of Tar Valon." Rand shifted, and Ba'alzamon gave a laugh, like a small thunderclap. "They think themselves safe in their White Tower, but my followers number even some of their own. The Aes Sedai called Moiraine told you who you are, did she not? Did she lie? Or is she one of mine? The White Tower means to use you like a hound on a leash..."

 

I know 'Ishy is a lying liar who lies' and taunts Rand suggesting perhaps Moraine is loyal to himself. But I wondered how Ba'alzamon specifically and accurately knew Rand had been told by Moraine that he is the Dragon Reborn and also infers others of the Aes Sedai confirmed it (Siuan & Verin ?).

 

There are several reasons I can think of, but none seem definite, as follows-

He is guessing. (seems unlikely due to the way it is stated)

He can read Rand's mind through his dreams.

He was personally spying on the audience with the Amyrlin (Is he the unseen watcher in Fal-Dara?).

Some other darkfriend/black ajah was spying on the audience (Liandrin?).

Someone in the room reported directly to him, i.e. Verin (suggesting she is in fact a darkfriend).

 

I don't think it was Verin, as I don't belive she is dark, but am still intrigued with the theories.

I cannot believe Siuan would allow spying/listening by a darkfriend during that audience. However I am leaning towards this being the most likely reason.

I cannot recall whether the identity of the unseen watcher was confirmed, but don't think Ba'alzamon would have physically been in Fal-Dara. Can anyone confirm?

 

Am I missing something obvious or am I reading too much in to it?

[mb]

There might have been a chance that Ishamael got through the wards.

 

[Tel Janin]

Remember the Friends of the Dark Tea Party at the beginning of the TGH.

 

IMHO, there are a ton of clues in that prologue.  There were two Aes Sedai there, maybe answering to Ba'alzamon.  It's also possible (not probable, but possible) Ba'alzamon was getting info from Mesaana.

 

As far as Fal Dara, we know, based on 'Bors' POV that one of the Darkfriends was a Shienaran Lord (Ingtar perhaps?).  Entirely possible that he was informing Ba'alzamon.

 

I don't recall if eavesdropping wards were put up.  I would like to think so, based on the topic of conversation and the danger it placed Siuan, Moiraine and Verin in.

 

Anyway, my point is that there were a few folk who could have spied on him/them.

[demeroe]

There is no mention of wards being put up, so I suppose we will have to assume that any Black Ajah or darkfriend could have spied on them...somehow.

However it seems extremely short-sighted by Siuan not to ward the meeting, when they were so desperate to keep it a secret.

 

BTW, I should know this, but who was the unseen watcher in Fal-Dara that Rand seems aware of during that part of the story?

[MsDanya]

Tehre's always the rats and crows.... I'm pretty sure they have access alot of places.

[demonspawn]

The unseen watcher was the man that Ingtar allowed to enter fal Dara on the insistence of a Myyrddrahl (Sp?) or something like that. It was definately the one who fired the arrow at Rand before their departure.

[Yllek]

As it happens, I'm rereading the series and just read the beginning of TGH over the past several days. 

 

After the prologue where they had the darkfriend tea party and the book began, it mentioned Lord Integar being out of the keep 'hunting' AND Moiraine was off by herself somewhere.  Lan tells Rand that sometimes she needs to be off by herself. 

 

I LOVE Moiraine, but there are a lot of clues that maybe she does have dual loyalties.  I'm suspicious of her to say the least.  I fully expect that a character we know and love will be revealed as a darkfriend.  I'm kind of hoping that IF it's Moiraine, she is freed from the DO as a result of her captivity later in the series.

[Tyrell]

I can't believe that, given everything that Moiraine has done to fight the shadow; the events of New Spring and her actions in the main series make it pretty clear that she isn't a darkfriend or Black Ajah.

[Yllek]

Hey, I don't WANT to believe it!  I'm just saying.  New Spring described events from 20 years ago - there's been plenty of time and opportynity for her to go over to the dark side since then too.   

 

She could have been helping Rand to help the Shadow though.  The DO has always wanted to convert him, so she could have been sent on a mission to 'save' him and his friends(thus making him trust her). 

 

All I can say is that I'm re-reading the story for the nth time; only this time with the perspective that I'm trying to catch her and ... well, you try.  You'll see.  There's no definitive evidence either way (so far, remember that I'm only one chapter into TGH), but there's nothing disproving it either if you keep an open mind.

[lordofsoup]

there was one point in one of the books where verin was doing some shady things but I cant remember what

[demonspawn]

Actually.... I'm onto The Dragon reborn in my annual re-read of the series and there is something not quite right.

 

Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Loial and Faile have just left Illian. What I want to know is how does Moiraine know for certain that it is Sammael that is Lord Brend? How could she possibly get that information? It never struck me as odd until I read through this time.

 

I'm not insinuating that Moiraine is BA... I don't think she is any member of the A-Team... But I just can't get my head around this.

[Mr Ares]

What I want to know is how does Moiraine know for certain that it is Sammael that is Lord Brend?

Descriptions of Lord Brend tally with descriptions of Sammael, perhaps? If he didn't ward his dreams, that would probably help.

[Sabio]

Figured she knew from him not warding his dreams and talking to her spies.  Lord Brend someone few people know, suddenly appears, king goes missing and now this Lord Brend seems to be in charge.  Would show most likely he is Forsaken.

[sheaff28]

There is no way Moiraine is Black Ajah because we have seen her point of view a few times since New Spring, and from what I remember of that there were a few things she said/thought that mean she couldn't be a darkfriend. Also, something would probably happen in the bond that Lan would know about and there's no way he's a darkfriend.

[Ortham.Vega.]

interesting topic ,

not shure how exactly the devil does his thing really. id say most likley is that there was a spy or many spies .

as for moraine being a DF i have to say that alot of people in the books most likley believe she is , but if she was darkfriend would she not just capture rand a first book and hand him to the DO?

[DemandredFO]

Remember too that at some point between New Spring and Eye of the World she visited the Green Man so who know what odd things she learned.  She cannot be black, she killed Belal and sort of killed Lanfear.  Hypothetically, if she were BA she might have been told to assassinate Lanfear, who played both sides, but Belal was a military expert and he was free for a short time not enough to piss of the DO.  Moiraine is not a darkfriend, neither is Verin.

[demonspawn]

Descriptions of Lord Brend tally with descriptions of Sammael, perhaps? If he didn't ward his dreams, that would probably help.

 

The only thing with the theory that it was his dreams not being warded, is that it only passes on to other people, and the description people had of a man in dreams was of a "Tall slim man". Sammael was self conscious of his height as he is quite short, and often imagined himself taller in dreams... I think this was referenced in one of the books, possibly a disdainful quote from Lanfear or one of the other female forsaken.

 

True there could have been documents describing some of the Forsaken, and to me this is the most logical explanation,

[Mr Ares]

Sammael was self conscious of his height as he is quite short, and often imagined himself taller in dreams...

But his most noticeable feature is his scar.