Twisted Doorway Fight

[mb]

Near the end of Fires of Heaven, Moiraine and Lanfear fall through the Eelfinn doorway.

 

Moiraine I think we can not be certain of until she returns.  Her letter to Thom to me is not proof, the statement of her living I think is merely what she believes/believed not necessarily the truth.

From what I read in the books (and from what I found out), the only possibilities of what happened to her would be these:

-her being killed then resurrected

-her being severed/stilled (with or without being Healed).

 

Lanfear, her 3 wishes might have been these:

-A different body

-A different name

-A different strength in the One Power

Those are mere speculation.  The price probably was to be held by them; and to be rescued, the Dark Lord probably ordered for her to be mindtrapped by Moridin.

 

[lordofsoup]

Near the end of Fires of Heaven, Moiraine and Lanfear fall through the Eelfinn doorway.

 

Moiraine I think we can not be certain of until she returns.  Her letter to Thom to me is not proof, the statement of her living I think is merely what she believes/believed not necessarily the truth.

From what I read in the books (and from what I found out), the only possibilities of what happened to her would be these:

-her being killed then resurrected

-her being severed/stilled (with or without being Healed).

 

Lanfear, her 3 wishes might have been these:

-A different body

-A different name

-A different strength in the One Power

Those are mere speculation.  The price probably was to be held by them; and to be rescued, the Dark Lord probably ordered for her to be mindtrapped by Moridin.

 

 

why would she want to have a different strength in the OP it would likely make her weaker, because she is as strong as a woman can be. 

[trakand_01]

Personally, I think Lanfear asked for things which didnt mention her strength... she probably didn think to cover that base. I can't see her asking for a different appearance, because as Lanfear, Mierin was pretty much the most beautiful woman imaginable - both Rand and Mat comment on her beauty.

 

IMO, Lanfear asked for more selfish things, and her weakness in the power (if indeed she genuinely is weaker, which we are still to see truly), was a 'compromise' of sorts. Perhaps it's something she hadnt considered, which is why she's so sullen... perhaps?

[Yllek]

I believe that Lanfere asked for something that came too close to the shadow and she was killed as a result; thus her new body and being under the control of Mordin(? - it's been awhile since I read that part).  I have no idea why she's stronger in the power now.  Maybe the new body she was given was that of a channeler and somehow her strength was combined with the doner body?

With Moiraine, I have no idea what she might have asked but I believe that whatever happened to her has something to do with the rhyme... you know, music to dazzle, iron to bind, ect...  Her voice is always remarked as being very musical; perhaps she dazzles the fins and they don't want to let her go because of it. 

[trakand_01]

She cant channel more now, she's weaker... which is why Graendal, when she first thinks 'could it be Lanfear?' dismisses the thought - because Lanfear was substantially stronger... or have i got it all back to front!?

 

I think being under the control of Moridin was either a nasty surprise, or a condition of her re-incarnation.

[berk]

I think Moiraine killed Lanfear in their battle. Then then the DO "caught" Lanfear. That is why Moiraine is still stuck.

[Cillian]

I think Moiraine killed Lanfear in their battle. Then then the DO "caught" Lanfear. That is why Moiraine is still stuck.

 

I think so too, or else the Finns killed Lanfear when they caught them there.

[Majsju]

What makes you believe that Lanfear was granted any "wishes", considering what she had just done, as well as her connection to the DO?

[Kevin89]

As far as Lanfears resurrection goes I can only assume that the Do ressurected her.  Why else give her the name Cyndane which means last chance in the old tongue if I am not mistaken.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Moiraine I think we can not be certain of until she returns.  Her letter to Thom to me is not proof, the statement of her living I think is merely what she believes/believed not necessarily the truth.

I disagree.

 

1. She has somehow managed to get information on the future. Reference her letter, and her repeated claims that she knew the face of the man she would marry.

 

2. Mins viewing of Rand and that he'd need a woman dead and gone. - If he really does need a woman dead and gone, well, the DO wins, no outriggers etc., therefore he needs someone who Min believes to be dead and gone, i.e. Moiraine.

 

3. RJs inclusion of the Tower of Ghenji, the snakes and foxes game, and the continous references to it. Simply, why bother if not for Moiraine?

Lanfear, her 3 wishes might have been these:

-A different body

-A different name

-A different strength in the One Power

Those are mere speculation.  The price probably was to be held by them; and to be rescued, the Dark Lord probably ordered for her to be mindtrapped by Moridin.

Why would we she get any?

 

The finns can read her memories. They know who she is. Plus, she falls through the door while channeling/fighting a channeler.

 

Those two alone link her to the Shadow, which could well be enough for the Finns to seize her, if not try to kill her - ref. Moiraines warning to Rand re. Shadow related questions. I doubt she'd automatically get her requests in those circumstances.

 

And besides, the 3 changes you've listed, they were done by the DO, not the finns. I'm fairly sure SH states this when he first appears to the two recycled Forsaken.

 

And, why wish to be less powerful, less beautiful, and why would she be clearly irritated by her new name if she asked for it? - I'm positive she gets irritated when Moridin uses her name.

 

Makes no sense at all.

As far as Lanfears resurrection goes I can only assume that the Do ressurected her.  Why else give her the name Cyndane which means last chance in the old tongue if I am not mistaken.

Exactly.

 

Why is it her "last chance" if she wished for the name change / didn't have to be rescued by someone/thing?

I think Moiraine killed Lanfear in their battle. Then then the DO "caught" Lanfear. That is why Moiraine is still stuck.

I think so too, or else the Finns killed Lanfear when they caught them there.

That's what I think too.

 

If she had survived, i.e. all her changes were the result of her wishes .... why was she recycled? There'd have been no need. It's not as if she'd have signed up for the process if she had a choice.

 

She was killed, either by Moiraine, or by the Finns.

[Jethro]

I think it could have gone two ways.

 

Both women were captured by the Finns. Moiraine was interogated first, and in return for being stilled by the Finns she "wished" for Lanfears death, knowledge that would aid Rand in the Last Battle, and to be held in the Tower of Ghenji.

 

OR

 

As a Cairheinin Aes Sedai, armed to the teeth in misleadings and manipulations, Moiraine convinced the Finns to give her knowledge to help Rand, to be held in the Tower of Ghenji and be freed of her bond to Lan, the price being Lanfears death.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I think it could have gone two ways.

 

Both women were captured by the Finns. Moiraine was interogated first, and in return for being stilled by the Finns she "wished" for Lanfears death, knowledge that would aid Rand in the Last Battle, and to be held in the Tower of Ghenji.

 

OR

 

As a Cairheinin Aes Sedai, armed to the teeth in misleadings and manipulations, Moiraine convinced the Finns to give her knowledge to help Rand, to be held in the Tower of Ghenji and be freed of her bond to Lan, the price being Lanfears death.

But both of those suppose Moiraine had something to do with it.

 

Why can't the Finns have just killed Lanfear of their own accord? Surely, if they could still her, they could kill her?

[Jethro]

Why would they kill her? Yes she is Forsaken but that doesnt necessarily mean anything to the Finns. They wont answer questions too closely relating to the Dark One or whatever, but nothing says they will kill a Forsaken like any human would. They may not even know who Lanfear was.

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Why would they kill her? Yes she is Forsaken but that doesnt necessarily mean anything to the Finns. They wont answer questions too closely relating to the Dark One or whatever, but nothing says they will kill a Forsaken like any human would. They may not even know who Lanfear was.

Given that they held Lanfear for sometime, they would have had the chance to off her. Given their aversion to the Shadow, that's not out of the realms of possibility.

 

I'm also fairly sure that they ID'd Rand when he went. So why not Lanfear? She's pretty central to WoT ... I mean, she was one of those who drilled the Bore...

 

Why did the doorframe melt? What caused that? Given that the thing melted afterward, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that it had something to do with who went through it, i.e. one of the Forsaken, and we know the Finns have some sort of aversion to the Shadow.

 

Plus, how likely is that Moirane would actually have been able to kill Lanfear anyway? Lanfear, the strongest female channeler? She did in Ravin because he totally underestimated her. I'd have though that Lanfear would drop the bomb on an annoying Aes Sedai who'd just dropped her through the doorway.

 

Plus, I wasn't aware that one was allowed to bargain about what the Finns took in return for your wishes.

 

Mat certainly didn't reckon on being hung from a tree, after all.

 

So they appear to have the means. They might have the motive. And it doesn't seem to me that you can clearly state that Moiraine asked to be held in return for Lanfear's life.

 

So you can't discount them.

[Jethro]

Johannes Rydh reports that RJ answered this question in a post-WH Dromen & Demonen chat:

 

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

In the bit I highlighted, RJs own words state that, as opposed to what Mat thought about simply asking questions and being given an answer, in this incedent it was about striking a bargain.

 

Mat did no such thing, because he didnt know he needed to. So rather than saying "If you give me back my own memories, I will give you [whatever] in return," Mat just yelled at them to fill the wholes in his memory. He didnt state his own memories which is why he got random mens memories, and he made a demand, not a proposal, and so they chose a price themselves and hung him.

 

Regarding Lanfear, while the Finns may very well have recognised her the fact that she was Forsaken doesnt necessarily mean anything to the Finns. I see them as a neutral party, because they dont answer anything too close to the Shadow. Lanfear would have been treat the same as Lanfear I think; my guess is that Moiraine tricked the Finns.

[Luckers]

The fact of the matter is that the Finn are, in the end, merchants. They offer a skill for a price. They are not magical fairies bound to aiding humanity, they are a people who have an ability which they offer to humans in exchange for something they want--specifically emotions and experience in the case of the snakes, and emotions, experience and trinkits in the case of the foxes.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear arived in a fight that destroyed the doorway ter'angreal--and if what occured this side of the doorway is any judge they also created a verocious fire--essentially they in one blow cut off a valued source of trade, and created light, specifically forbidden.

 

Both are reasons for any merchant to not offer a person trade--after all, what merchant offers their product to someone who has kicked down their door and stopped any further trade from coming.

 

Beyond that, what merchant offers trade to someone whom they could take everything they wanted from anyway. both Moiraine and Lanfear were severed when they fell through the door--they couldn't protect themselves. Their memories and experiences were already on the plate, anything they had with them could simply have been taken--and we know this as fact, Cyndane directly states that the Finn held her, yet we see that the Power works against the finn. Lanfear certainly would have known of the prescripts, of the power of light on the Finn--and besides we have her reduction in strength, and the severing of Moiraine's bond.

 

The fact is that Moiraine and Lanfear were made prisoners. They were not offered wishes--or answers. At some stage during their imprisonment Lanfear was killed--possibly by the Finns, their unwillingness to touch on issues if the shadow shows a degree of aversion, though thats hardly proof. Perhaps Moiraine managed to kill her, or perhaps she killed herself, looking for the Dark One to recycle her. Either way she died--without wishes.

[Jethro]

Moiraine got em though. She'd be dead by now otherwise

[Reiver]

What I took away from the books was that Lanfear had already been through the gate once before. Can't remember why though. I thought the actual act of going through again had killed her and destroyed the gate thus trapping Moiraine.

I'm afraid i can't really remember passages that led me to this so no evidence for it i'm afraid. 

[Jethro]

I cant see it being the case that Lanfear died upon passing through a second time, otherwise Mat should have died and also Moiraine IIRC. Ditto about it being Lanfears second time though, Im not sure why but I seem to remember hearing that she'd been through once before.

[Reiver]

Mat didn't pass through a second time though. The one in the stone of Tear was a different gate.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I don't see the finns holding prisoners in the traditional sense.  I think it would be more like being stuck in that big maze, with the finns all over the place constantly rummaging, perhaps trying to make more leather straps.

 

The finns are not quite merchants, because they trade their abilities for the sake of the trade.  What I mean is, their purpose is not to make money or unload their "product", but to participate in the "memory rummaging" itself.  That isn't the behavior a merchant, it's more like a symbiont.  Further, their rules are clearly for self-protection, and they set unreasonable conditions for the trade, forcing the humans into a compromising situation at the start.  This makes me think the finns are not as powerful as humans.  Maybe they can't even use their powers unless they are on those pedestals in the middle of that maze.

 

I think of the finns more like intelligent animals, hiding in their den, having the basic instinct/desire to get at those memories and knowing that the humans won't come back if they don't give something back.

 

I don't think the doorframe melted because of the OP being used around it.  It would be cool if it melted because Lanfear had already been in once - the door tried to pass Moiraine and block Lanfear, and broke (melting because it had a huge amount of stored energy).  If they did not go through together, only Moiraine would have gone anywhere.

[Marin]

I'm not sure of this (I'm at work and can't reference the books) but if memory serves me right...  Lanfear was channelling when Moiraine pushed her through the gateway, but Moiraine was not.  Moiraine just made a flying leap at Lanfear that sent them both falling through the doorway.  If that's the case, perhaps Lanfear was killed (or perhaps simply died) because she passed through the doorway while channelling, the was subsequently recycled by the DO.  Moiraine, on the other hand, could have been just another person passing through the gateway and may have been granted the same rules as anyone else.  She may have "wished" to stay there until rescued and offered information or allowed rummaging through her experiences as payment.  Or she may have made another "wish" based on information she received from the doorway in Tear.

[Swigaro]

In her POV, right before tackeling Lanfear, Moiraine embraces the source.  I remember putting forth a theory years ago that Moiraine wasn't necessarily stilled, only to be swiftly put down by Roka Smrti.  She may not have been actively channeling, but she was holding the source.  I tend to agree with Luckers on this one.  She would likely suffer the same wrath as Lanfear, being, proveriably in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The big difference is that she knew what was about to happen, and that she had a chance at rescue.  I find it much more likely that once through the doorway, Moiraine simply dropped to the floor for cover and let Lanfear get herself in trouble, than attempting any wheeling and dealing.  Remember, she was basicly using the Finns to despose of their enemy, a fact that would not have been lost on them.  I doubt highly that she got any wishes out of the deal.  They may have even treated her more harshly, for her clear manipulation.  Lanfear gets put out of her misery, while they keep Moirane alive to toy with.

[mb]

Moiraine I think we can not be certain of until she returns.  Her letter to Thom to me is not proof, the statement of her living I think is merely what she believes/believed not necessarily the truth.

I disagree.

 

1. She has somehow managed to get information on the future. Reference her letter, and her repeated claims that she knew the face of the man she would marry.

 

2. Mins viewing of Rand and that he'd need a woman dead and gone. - If he really does need a woman dead and gone, well, the DO wins, no outriggers etc., therefore he needs someone who Min believes to be dead and gone, i.e. Moiraine.

 

3. RJs inclusion of the Tower of Ghenji, the snakes and foxes game, and the continous references to it. Simply, why bother if not for Moiraine?

 

I still think that her statement of living is/was merely her belief.

 

Even with her prior knowledge of the future, even she could not be entirely certain of if she would live or not.

 

Min's viewings are not necessarily about what Min believes, just about what she sees.  For Moiraine to fulfill the one mentioned, Moiraine would have needed to die at some point and afterwards be resurrected.

 

The references to the tower do not prove whether Moiraine lives or not.

 

[BKVMC]

for awhile i  thought  like others have that  Lanfear  was  killed  by  the  finns or  by  moiraine somehow.  However  im now leaning towards that in  her  rage  and  desire for  retribution she  drew to  much of the  one  power  into  herself and was  recycled  by her boss.

 

I have no doubts that  Moiraine is alive  and  will be rescued  by  Thom  Mat and Noal to  many  things  hint at this  eventuality.