"Need."

[GrandpaG]

The dreamwalking wise ones use "need" in Telanrhoid.

 

Finding the Green Man depended upon "need".

 

Are the two related?

[BeaconofMercy]

Yes, I think they are. Both the World of Dreams and the Green Man's sanctuary in the Blight are otherworldly places. I believe that each of them has something to do with one of the elements of the One Power, Spirit. I think Spirit and need is related when it comes to these places somehow, I don't know exactly how.

 

I think the Green Man's sanctuary blocks the Spirit of one who needs to find it. But people who can't channel have also found it, so I'm not sure I am correct.

[Hybrid]

The idea's been proposed before, I think.  Certainly the ability of the Green Man's sanctuary to change location based on the location of the one who is seeking it points to it not being in the real world at the least.  Given that we haven't encountered any other places besides Tel'aran'rhiod which exhibit these qualities, I'd say it's a reasonably logical theory.

[Jethro]

Maybe its like a vacuole, it has been said that they are places outside the Pattern that can be manipulated. Maybe the Green Man was able to sense the need of those who truly need him so he can appear when and where he must

[GrandpaG]

You know how Birgette and the others kinda hang out in TR until the wheel spins them out?  I'm wondering if the Green Man was in a similar situation.  He only left TR to go to the Blight when the wheel sent him there to meet a "need"?  And, the pattern "knew" that Moraine had need enough to see the Green Man twice?  I don't know.

[Jethro]

Its not that much of a stretch, is it? It falls well within the realistic boundaries.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

And, the pattern "knew" that Moraine had need enough to see the Green Man twice?  I don't know.

 

wasn't it rand's channeling that 'brought' the EoTW to them?

[Valinthros]

On the question of whether Rand's channeling brought the eye...  negative.  If it were channeling that had brought the eye, it would have been easy for the dark to get a hold of that gem.

 

On Moir, the 'rules' of the eye were that if you visited it once, you would not be able to do so again.  This was the exception, but no reason that I can remember was given.

 

On the theory of the two being related.  I'd buy it.  Not necessarily the TAR reference itself, but similar 'ways' of finding something sure.  Though... the need for TEOTW is a bit more specific.  It's tied to location, though not a specific spot, but a range of areas.  Which is why they had to travel to the blight to find it.  The references in TAR simply say need, and dont reference a location until you get closer to the destination.  So in that respect both are different.  Interesting topic.  ;)

[MystErikEry]

On the question of whether Rand's channeling brought the eye...  negative.  If it were channeling that had brought the eye, it would have been easy for the dark to get a hold of that gem.

 

On Moir, the 'rules' of the eye were that if you visited it once, you would not be able to do so again.  This was the exception, but no reason that I can remember was given.

 

On the theory of the two being related.  I'd buy it.  Not necessarily the TAR reference itself, but similar 'ways' of finding something sure.  Though... the need for TEOTW is a bit more specific.  It's tied to location, though not a specific spot, but a range of areas.  Which is why they had to travel to the blight to find it.  The references in TAR simply say need, and dont reference a location until you get closer to the destination.  So in that respect both are different.  Interesting topic.  ;)

 

Except that Rand was channeling when they found the Eye again; it's rather obvious.

However, just because channeling happened to bring the Eye, doesn't mean it would have been easy for the Dark to get ahold of it - they might not have known the weave, after all, and it's not as though Rand knew what he was doing when he brought it upon them.  :)

[Valinthros]

Except that Rand was channeling when they found the Eye again; it's rather obvious.

 

Just a friendly request:

 

Do you have quote's to back this up?  I.E.  Something stating specifically that his channeling brought the eye.  And I dont specifically remember him channeling until after they were in the eye.  I'll take a look when I get a chance to renew my memory on it.

[White_star]

On the question of whether Rand's channeling brought the eye...  negative.  If it were channeling that had brought the eye, it would have been easy for the dark to get a hold of that gem.

Except that Rand was channeling when they found the Eye again; it's rather obvious.

However, just because channeling happened to bring the Eye, doesn't mean it would have been easy for the Dark to get a hold of it - they might not have known the weave, after all, and it's not as though Rand knew what he was doing when he brought it upon them.  Smiley

 

I don't recall Rand channeling at all until he was faced with the Forsaken.  He DID try to form The Flame and the Void, which shattered in a way it had never done before, while they were all being pursued by the Worms.  It was HIS need (not channeling) that brought the Green Man.  Moiraine thought it was their need as a group that brought the Green Man but it was Rand who was about to turn back to face the Worms.  Had he done that he would have surely died which would have doomed the world.

[MystErikEry]

The previous times that Rand channeled in the book read extremely similar to the time at the end when his "flame and void" was shattering in a strange way.

 

I don't have the actual book on me, so I don't have any quotes on it, but I know it's been discussed here before and that the conclusion was that Rand did channel in some way, there.  Consider how he feels when his Flame and Void shatters... from what I remember, he feels all chill and on fire at the same time, and other such descriptions --- just the same feelings as holding Saidin (burning ice and freezing fire and all that).

 

It doesn't flat-out say "he channeled to make it appear" but it was supposed to keep you guessing about whether Rand could channel or not until the very end, after all :) Consider that it was Rand's "need" to make Bela run well and true that caused him to channel some Healing into the horse, I'd think a similar need to find the Eye could spark a similar channeling experience for him.

 

 

Also, Rand had channeled numerous other times throughout the book :) So I think you're misremembering if you think he didn't channel at all until he was faced with the Forsaken.

[Ndshacker]

I think she meant, Consciously channeling

[White_star]

The previous times that Rand channeled in the book read extremely similar to the time at the end when his "flame and void" was shattering in a strange way.

 

I don't have the actual book on me, so I don't have any quotes on it, but I know it's been discussed here before and that the conclusion was that Rand did channel in some way, there.  Consider how he feels when his Flame and Void shatters... from what I remember, he feels all chill and on fire at the same time, and other such descriptions --- just the same feelings as holding Saidin (burning ice and freezing fire and all that).

 

It doesn't flat-out say "he channeled to make it appear" but it was supposed to keep you guessing about whether Rand could channel or not until the very end, after all Smiley Consider that it was Rand's "need" to make Bela run well and true that caused him to channel some Healing into the horse, I'd think a similar need to find the Eye could spark a similar channeling experience for him.

 

 

Also, Rand had channeled numerous other times throughout the book Smiley So I think you're misremembering if you think he didn't channel at all until he was faced with the Forsaken.

 

I know he unknowingly channeled before in the book, I meant since the lightning at that inn in The Four Kings :). 

 

Here are some quote from the Starscape edition of TEOTW. The first three are the channeling events mentioned and the last is the incident in question.

 

1.  "If Bela fell back, he would fall back, too, whatever Moiraine and Lan had to say about it.  Back where the Fade and the Trollics were.  Back where the Draghkar was.  With all his heart and desperation he silently shouted at Bela to run like the wind, silently tried to will strength into her.  Run! His skin pricked, and his bones felt as if they were freezing, ready to split open. The Light help her, run!  And Bela ran."

(TEOTW part 1, Ch.11, pg.149, par.2)

 

2.  "Painfully Rand managed to look over his shoulder, and knew his luck had run out.  A wolf-muzzled Trollic stood balanced on the railing, staring down at him and holding a splintered end of the catchpole that had knocked the wind out of him.  Rand struggled to reach the sword, to move, to get away, but his arms and legs moved jerkily, and only half as he wanted.  They wobbled and went in odd directions.  His chest felt as if it were strapped with iron bands; silver spots swarm in his eyes.  Frantically he hunted for some way to escape.  Time seemed to slow as the Trollic raised the jagged pole as if to spear him with it.  To Rand the creature appeared to moving as if in a dream.  He watched the thick arm go back; he could already feel the broken haft ripping through his spine, feel the pain of it tearing him open.  He thought his lungs would burst.  I'm going to die!  Light help me!  I'm going to ...!  The Trollic's arm started forward, driving the splintered shaft, and Rand found the breath for one yell.  "No!"

 

  Suddenly the ship lurched, and the boom swung out of the shadows to catch the Trollic across the chest with a crunch of breaking bones, sweeping it over the side."

(TEOTW part 1, Ch.20, pg.307, par.1-2)

 

3.  "The words seemed to drift to Rand through wool stuffed in his ears.  No way out.  Thunder muttered overhead, and was drowned in a splash of light.  Have to find a way out.  Gode called to them, demanding appealing; the door slid another inch toward being open.  A way out!

  Light filled the room, flooding vision; the air roared and burned.  Rand felt himself picked up and dashed against the wall.  He slid down in a heap, ears ringing and every hair on his body trying to stand on end.  Dazed, he staggered to his feet.  His knees wobbled, and he put his hand against the wall to steady himself.  He looked  around in amazement."

(TEOTW part 2, Ch.32, pg.137 par.8 - pg.138 par.1)

 

4.  "Clinging to his saddle with a deathgrip, Rand shrugged, trying to loosen the tightness in his shoulders.  His whole chest felt tight, until he could hardly breathe, and his skin stung in hot pinpricks.  The Blight had turned to foothills.  He could see the route they must climb once they reached the mountains, the twisting path and the high pass beyond, like an axe blow cleaving into the black stone.    Light, what's up ahead that can scare what's behind?  Light help me, I've never been so afraid.  I don't to go any further. No further! Seeking the flame and the void, he railed himself.  Fool!  You frightened, cowardly fool!  You can't stay here, and you can't go back.  Are you going to leave Egwene to face it alone?  The void eluded him, forming, then shivering into a thousand points of light, re-forming and shattering again, each point burning into his bones until he quivered with pain and thought he must burst open.  Light help me, I can't go on.  Light help me!

  He was gathering his reins to turn back, to face the Worms or anything rather than what lay ahead, when the nature of the land changed.  Between one one slop of a hill and the next, between crest and peak, the Blight was gone."

(TEOTW part 2, pg.394 par.11 - pg.395 par.1")

 

Granted, there are similarities, and perhaps Rand was starting to channel or maybe draw in saidin (?sp). I just don't think it was the act of channeling that brought The Green Man. He said himself, "This place is always where it is.  All that changes is where those who need it are." And, Rand was just about to kill himself by trying to face the Worms. 

 

Well, that's my three cents for today :).  Sorry for such a lengthy post.

[GrandpaG]

Lengthy is not always bad (voice of experience).  ;)

[LordoftheMorning]

I always thought it was Rand's need that helped them find the Green Man. I didn't think the One Power had anything to do with it. Always thought Moraine was mistaken about it being her need.

[Kevin89]

What I want to know is how did Balthamel and Aginor get there?

[Swigaro]

If memory serves, they followed the then Shadar Logoth Dagger tainted Mat.  Doesn't Aginor point at him and say "We followed him," when asked that very question?

[Kevin89]

I know they followed the dagger but how did they get to the greenmans place?

[Arath Faringal]

Travelling.  They didn't need to know the place they were travelling to, only the starting location.  And if they could feel the dagger from a great distance, then they would know where to go.

[Kevin89]

Travelling.  They didn't need to know the place they were travelling to, only the starting location.  And if they could feel the dagger from a great distance, then they would know where to go.

 

Thanks Arath Faringal I was never too sure about the whole thing.  What really confuses me about that though is that one of them either Balthamel or Aginor(don't have my books handy) says that they havn't touched the one power in a very long time.

[Arath Faringal]

"So long without," Aginor said softly.  "So long."

 

Balthamel didn't do any talking at all seeing as he was even more decomposed than Aginor. :P

 

I'm actually not sure what it was he was refering to.  It could have been the OP, but I doubt it.  They had just traveled to reach the Eye, and obviously the Eye hadn't been their first stop.  Unless Balthamel wore a leather mask as a fashion statement during the Age of Legends.  And moments later Aginor flung Lan around like a rag doll, and Balthamel did something to Nynaeve.

 

My guess would be that he was talking about the pattern, but it seems like an odd way to say it.  So long outside would have been better if that were the case.

[GrandpaG]

He was probably drooling while staring at the women.  ;)

[Tel Janin]

Which one (drooling, I mean) GrandpaG?  ;D

 

I think the Need key for the Green Man was more the pattern's need than anything else, which was why Moiraine was able to go again.

 

My two coppers.

[Mr Ares]

Unless Balthamel wore a leather mask as a fashion statement during the Age of Legends.

I believe he did. I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere.

My guess would be that he was talking about the pattern, but it seems like an odd way to say it. So long outside would have been better if that were the case.

Odd, but not incorrect.