Real Life Myths and WoT

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I thought it’d be quite interesting to do a run down on a few of the links between WoT and existing legends.

 

You never know, there might be an interesting little nugget in there that could give us a clue about the plot of AoL.

 

And yes, this has been done before.

 

Rand and Arthur

There are numerous links, some tenuous others less so, between Rands story and the Arthurian legends.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur

While the easiest mythological link to Rands name is the Norse god of thunder, there is a striking similarity between the protagonists name and that of Arthur. Looking a little closer, you can find other links between character names and Arthurian legend.

 

Igerna / Igraine - Tigraine

Arthur’s mother, and a striking similarity between the names.

 

Uther Pendragon

Arthur’s father. No apparent similarities to Tam.

 

However, and I realize this might seem obvious … look at his surname. Again, yes, it’s an obvious point … but, studying Arthurian characters, the links are clear. Perhaps this is the most obvious reference.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur Uther Pendragon

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag? Uther Pendragon = Luthair Paendrag?

 

Thank you, Mr Ares.

 

Uther Pendragon

- A source of details?

Uthers forces apparently rode under banners showing dragons, some sort of prophetic sign is credited with inspiring the king to take the dragon as his sign.

 

Uhter’s wife, and Arthur’s mother was Igrane or Igraine.

 

--- In WoT, Tigraine is Rands mother.

 

He dies by poisioning.

 

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag

The use of Arthur’s name suggests a close tie to Hawkwing.

 

Arthur forged an empire consisting of the British Isles, Ireland, parts of Northern France, and possibly Norway.

 

Arthur planned to march on Rome, but returned to Britain upon news of the Mordred-led rebellion.

 

Historians have been unable to verify that Arthur ever existed.

 

Morgase - Morgause

Arthur’s half-sister, daughter of Arthur’s father, Uther Pendragon, and Igraine. She has a sister called Elaine.

 

Mother of Gawain and two other sons.

 

She is killed by one of her sons for sleeping with his enemy, for some reason the son lets his mothers lover go, and the other sons, believing the lover killed Moragause, swear vengeance and hunt him down.

 

- Does that last paragraph ring any bells?

 

Egwene al’Vere = Guinevere

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere. 

 

The only real connection I see is that Guinavere was a queen and Egwene is the Amyrllin which is a good as if not better than being queen.  I guess you could also argue that each was part of a rebel faction since Guinavere was the cause the Lancelot's rebellion against Arthur and Egwene is the leader of the rebel Aes Sedi. 

A more tenuous comparison between Guinavere and Egwene Al'Vere, both are originally the love interest of the hero (King Arthur and Rand Al'Thor, respectively) who somewhat innocently fall for a Knight.

Once again, thanks to Cuba and Leopoled B.

 

A little filler:

 

Guinevere was the wife of Arthur, famous from her affair with Lancelot. The affair is brought to Arthur’s attention by Mordred.

 

Guinevere is sentenced to death, and is due to be burnt on a pyre, until Lancelot and his allies rescue her from Arthur’s knights, starting the war.

 

It is noted that Gawain (a knight loyal to Arthur) does attempt to prevent the rescue of Guinevere, despite being ordered to by Arthur. Though, in some versions of the story, Gawain instigates the war and later fights Lancelot, suggesting that his decision to avoid the confrontation over Guinevere was not out of loyalty to Lancelot, but to the queen.

 

Darth Andrea has highlighted the possibility that Gawyn is modeled on Lancelot rather than Gawain, based upon the Lancelot – Guinevere connection:

Perhaps then that would make Gawyn, the Lancelot character. Seeing how he feels about Rand he could very well go into open rebellion against him. Until Morgase comes back out in the open and he see's her with his own eyes he may very well try and bring Rand down or at least try to kill him.

 

Following the end of the war, Lancelot and Guinevere see each other one last time before the widowed queen retires to a convent for the rest of her life.

 

Gawyn – Gawain

He’s often portrayed as the nephew of Arthur, through his sister Morgause. Gawain is killed in battle by the forces of Mordred.

Its been a while since I've read Morte de Arthur, but wasn't Gawain actually killed by Lancelot.  I remember Lancelot and Gwenevere having an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur.  During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death. Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some since into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

I didn’t add this part of the myth because it is one version of the story, there are a variety of accounts within the Arthurian legends revolving around Gawain. The main reasons why I left it out being:

 

1. I don’t see Lan as a Lancelot-type. Their characters are different … however, they are the “best of the best”.

2. There doesn’t appear to be a love interest involving Lan that could split the Light apart…. Not involving Gawyn anyway.

 

I’ll add it to the “thoughts” section anyway, I'll also add the Lancelot-Lan connection.

 

Tam – Sir Ector

Ok, no link through the name.

 

However, Sir Ector was Arthur’s adopted father. Merlin spirited the boy away and handed him over to Sir Ector to be raised alongside his son, Sir Kay.

 

Sir Ector was never told of Arthur’s lineage. Sir Ector lived in an area called the “Wild Forest”.

 

Moiraine – Morgan le Fay

 

Another name for Morgan le Fay (among others) is Morgain.

 

She was a powerful enchantress, and became the nemesis of Arthur and Guinevere and is often stated to be the mother of Mordred. Before this occurs, she is represented as a figure with healing powers that she, occasionally, uses to aid Arthur.

 

She also turns up later on the Isle of Avalon and is one of the “Sisters” who heals Arthur after the battle of Caamlan.

 

Elayne – Elaine

Sister of Morgause.

 

Also another name for the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake fixes a broken Excalibur.

A second Elaine is Sir Galahad's mother, by Sir Launcelot.

Galad – Galahad

One of the three purest knights, he attained the Grail. He was the illegitimate son of an Knight of the Round Table (Lancelot). As a result, he was separated from his father at a young age. He was portrayed as being difficult to relate to due to his spartan, austere lifestyle and code of ethics.

 

- That’s got to be Galad.

 

Thom Mehrillin – Merlin

On Arthurian legends you forgot to mention Merlin the Magician and Thom Merlin the gleeman ( in one of the early books Thom while talking about remembered stories from past ages says that facts become jumbled so that in the future he could be seen as a hero who "breaths fire", etc.).

Thanks to Cuba for the above.

*Shakes his head at his own forgetfulness*

 

Scholars have stated that the most common Merlin myths are based on a travelling troubador called Myrddin Wyllt. He was some form of court bard, or entertainer, before the death of the lord he served.

 

Myrddin "died" three times. Firstly, he was beaten to death, later cast into a river, or the sea, and finally, was impaled.

 

Gareth - Gareth

A knight of the Round Table, usually portrayed as kind and unassuming.

 

Tenuous, I know.

 

Moridin – Mordred / Mordredus

Arthur’s nemesis, surprisingly few details about his life, he was often portrayed as the son of Morgase.

 

It is usually Mordred himself who fatally (?) wounds Arthur.

 

Damodred/Demandred – Mordred

Mordred? Mordred was Arthur's bastard son by his aunt Morgawse, and his slayer.

I immediately linked Moridin to Mordred, but, I guess it works either way.

 

The Lady of the Lake

The spirit-like figure that repairs Excalibur and, possibly, takes Arthur to Avalon.

 

Also known as Elaine and Nyneve and other names.

 

- Elaine is learning about all the various angreal types, and will be involved in the boat scene with Min and Avi.

 

Green Man: Green Knight or Green Man

Both in the Arthurian version, where Sir Gawain encounters the Green Man, and the much earlier Irish myths where Cuchulain encounters a nameless entity that by the description is obviously the Green Man, the story follows the same pattern: hero makes deal with Green Man to show how brave he is, hero cuts Green Man's head off, Green Man reappears three nights later to finish the deal by cutting hero's head off, hero goes honourably to his destiny, Green Man stays his hand at the last conceivable instant and compliments hero on bravery. [Emmet O'Brien]

Personally, I see this as a bit of a stretch.

The ent/treeman/treant/green man myth is a common one, found through many European cultures, and possibly further afield. I don’t see how the Green Man of Arthurian legend is linked to the Green Man / Green Knight of Arthur.

Surely it’s linked to the tree-man legends.

Elyas, Aram, Demandred, Bors: All the same as or similar to names of Arthurian knights.

 

Lan - Lancelot

There is a clear similarity between the names.

Here's an abridged version of some info. provided by Leopoled Boothe:

Gawain was actually killed by Lancelot. 

Lancelot and Gwenevere had an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur. 

During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

Lancelot is famous for the affair he had with Arthur's wife, Guinevere. This affair resulted in a civil war, and as pointed out by Leopoled, the death of Gawain in one version of the tales.

 

Lancelot is also heavily involved in finding the Holy Grail (which is linked by some DM members to angreal via the Holy Grail = Sang Real = Blood of Jesus route.) Lancelot fails to find the grail to his sin committed with Guinevere.

 

Lancelot is also commonly noted to be the father of Galahad.

 

Personally, I don't see more than a superficial link between Lan and Lancelot.

 

They are seen as the best of the best, (warders and knights respectively), so that's a tenuous link.

 

One could suggest that Lan's relationship with Nynaeve (while Moiraine is actually live and kicking) could be a link to Lancelot's adultery. Personally I don't see it, the killer blow (for me) is that Moiriane knew, and kinda approved, of Lan and Nynaeve by the time she went through the door.

 

Maybe, Lan is based on Lancelot maybe. Certainly, the name could well have been inspired. But I think his character is a stretch.

 

Amyrlin: Merlin/Myrddin

Arthur's chief advisor/magician, etc.

 

Places

Camelyn - Camlaan – Camelot

There’s a clear similarity between the names of these three. I can’t recall how the glossaries indicate Camelyn is to be pronounced, but, as a Brit, there’s not too much of difference in the pronunciation of “Camlaan” and “Camelyn” in my opinion.

 

Camlaan is the scene of the climax of the Arthurian legend. Mordreds forces, often Mordred himself, fatally (?) wound Arthur during the battle.

 

Camelot was the city Arthur founded, it became his capital and seat of power.

 

Tar Valon – Avalon

Avalon is the island to which Arthur is taken by the three women on a boat after the battle of Camlaan. There, he is healed and supposedly rests until his return. The island is inhabited by nine sisters.

 

- There’s a clear link to Mins prophecy re. the boat and the women, as would being healed by “sisters”.

 

Excalibur was also supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

 

- Callandor was made by Aes Sedai.

 

Others

Excalibur

The sword in the stone, maybe. There are accounts that the sword and the stone are in fact related to Galahad, however, many versions of the tale equate Excalibur to the sword in the stone. Excalibur had been placed in the stone to be removed by one who was worthy of the kingship of the island and was seen a symbol of that kingship. The sword was supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

One source of the name “Excalibur” is thought to be from ancient Gaelic (Welsh and Irish) mythology. Two famous swords are often mentioned in this respect, Caledfwlch and Caladbolg.

 

The sword is broken at one point and repaired by the Lady of the Lake.

 

Lady of the Lake a.k.a Elaine. – Elayne fixing Callandor?

The Fisher King: a king in the legend of Perceval who had an unhealable wound corresponding to the woes of his land. cf Rand's side wound which is not Healable, the ACOS Header Prophecy, and the "Fisher" figure in Moridin's favorite game.

Again, not truly Aurthurian, but a Grail Romance.

Sa’angreal

Sa'angreal: San Greal (Holy Grail). An alternate spelling, Sang Real, translates to "holy or royal blood"

This is quite a common link. It becomes relevant when the Romance traditions are added in.

The Return of Arthur

The myth of Arthur includes his miraculous return to the world.

 

Arthur was not killed at Camlann, but was transported by three women on a small barge to Avalon where he was healed.

 

When Arthur returns, he will come from Avalon.

 

Arthur’s return is normally associated with the return of the land to its rightful inhabitants and the expulsion of invaders.

 

- The die and live again prophecy would fit in here.

 

************************

 

So that’s my effort at a little light amusement.

 

Obviously, not all of the points above directly fit into WoT, and some of them have been adapted, but there are parallels, as we know.

 

I was interested to see that Gawain’s mother was killed and the brothers (not necessarily including Gawain) believed someone else had killed her.

 

Also, the implication that Galahad was one of the only knights to find the grail was interesting.

 

So......

 

My new thoughts (and yes, I know they aren’t likely to happen as I write them out):

 

1. The site of the climatic battle between Moridin and Rand will be at Camelyn. Moridin will “kill” Rand.

 

2. Rand will recover in Tar Valon.

 

3. Galad will find something important something to do with an angreal of some sort.

 

4. Gawyn will die at the hands of Moridin, or at least take a good beating.

 

5.      OR ....

Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some sense into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

This is in reference to Lan being linked to Lancelot.

 

Cheers Leopoled.

 

6. Callandor will break and will be fixed by Elayne. Alternatively, and probably more likely, Elayne will remove the buffer flaw from Callandor.

 

Any thoughts on the above?

 

********

EDITS/ADDITIONS

 

Merlin - Thom

Lan - Lancelot

Gawain and Lancelot connection.

Gawain theory

"Fixing" of Callandor

Morgan le Fay - Moiraine

Tam - Sir Ector

02/12/08 – Linux Mafia Sources

[Mystica]

wow... that's quite an eye opener. Nyneve would then obvioulsy also refer to Nynaeve, I suppose. If not in meaning or background, then in name certainly.

[Jethro]

4.  Gawyn will die at the hands of Moridin, or at least take a good beating.

 

Oooooh that sounds good! I need Moridin to kick some ass. I hate the idea of him falling as easily as the other Chosen have so far. I want Moridin to encounter a group of Ashaman and Aes Sedai-three or four each, none of which are Darkfriends-and it turn into a fight. And I need Moridin to win it easily.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

wow... that's quite an eye opener. Nyneve would then obvioulsy also refer to Nynaeve, I suppose. If not in meaning or background, then in name certainly.

Quite possibly. Nyneve or Nynaeve is a common enough Gaelic name and probably features elsewhere in Gaelic mythology too. Your guess is as good as mine. But, it looks like she was the source of the name given the links to Arthurian legend.

 

Along with Morgase, Elayne, Gawyn, Galad, maybe Moridin, etc., etc. ... it's clever. (Or not if that kind of thing annoys you.)

 

- Before I started reading about all this I knew there were links, but it seems to me like Rands whole "family" on the Andoran side is Arthurian. Which makes sense, given that Andor is essentially British (actually English) in inspiration.

[Majsju]

To (possibly) add to the Tar Valon - Avalon connection, in LOC we get one of these tidbits from the 4th Age, where it mentions a city named Great Aravalon. Of course we do not know if that is a new name for Tar Valon, but the name is somewhat inbetween the two.

 

As for Norse religion, I would need to hit the books for a more thorough examination, but some things from the top of my head...

 

Tyr. Supposedly mainly a source for Rand.

Lost a hand when the Gods decided to bind the giant wolf Fenrisulf. The wold haf earlier broken all kinds of chains they had tried, but finally they had the dwarfes make a magical ribbon. The reason Tyr lost his hand here was that Fenrisulf was suspicious about the Gods intentions, and demanded one of them to put a hand in its mouth, Tyr being the only one stepping up.

Incidently, Rand lost a hand when Semirhage was captured, and I do not think it is that much of a stretch to think Semirhage will be bound by a magical "ribbon" (a'dam). Question is, will Semirhage, like Fenrisulf break free during TG (Ragnarök in Norse religion)?

 

Tyr is the God of (organised) warfare. During Ragnarök he is killed by the guarddog of Hel (The Norse version of Hades).

 

 

Odin. The oldest of the Gods, and ruler of Asgard. Associated with wisdom, war, battle and death, but also trickery and cunning. Often pictured with a (eight-legged)horse and a spear. He had a number of magical artifacts, a spear that never missed its target, the ravens Hugin and Munin who flew around the world and reported back to him, a golden ring (which I do not remember what it was for), and a pair of wolves, Geri and Freki.

 

He is further associated with the Wild hunt, where he leads a group of slain warriors across the sky. Other dead warriors under his command are the Valkyries, woman warrior fallen in battle and then given the task of gatheing other souls of brave warriors.

Like Tyr, Odin is a God of war, but he acts more as the bringer of victory.

 

Odin was hung from Yggdrasil, the world tree, and pierced with his own spear, in order to gain wisdom that would give him power in the nine known worlds. He also sacrificed an eye in order to be allowed to drink from imers Well, and thus gain knowledge of the past, present and future.

 

Thor. Associated with strength and thunder. Main attriubtes are his hammer Mjölnir, a great beard, a belt that increases his already impressive strength, and a chariot pulled by two goats.

Thors strength is much due to him being the son of Odin and a giant.

Most stories are variations of him using his strength to defeat his main enemies, the giants.

 

[Jethro]

Odin was known as the Father of Battles as well, and Mat is called Son of Battles by the Finns.

 

Check this out as well, although only a miniscule thing compared to some of these. Demandred is a general and known as a gambler. Mat is a general and also known as a gambler, but he gambled way before becoming a general. Maybe Mat and Demandred will lead armies against each other in Tarmon Gaidon.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

To (possibly) add to the Tar Valon - Avalon connection, in LOC we get one of these tidbits from the 4th Age, where it mentions a city named Great Aravalon. Of course we do not know if that is a new name for Tar Valon, but the name is somewhat inbetween the two.

Why not?

 

It could also be possible, and this totally without any form of backup, that "Tar" meant something in The Old Tongue. Similar to "Fal," which clearly has something to do with castles/fortresses e.g. Fal Dara, Fal Moran etc.. I'm thinking along the lines of the Old English word "tor" which means "hill" or more specifically, "fortified hill".

Incidently, Rand lost a hand when Semirhage was captured, and I do not think it is that much of a stretch to think Semirhage will be bound by a magical "ribbon" (a'dam). Question is, will Semirhage, like Fenrisulf break free during TG (Ragnarök in Norse religion)?

Sounds very likely. Her escape has been foreshadowed by the whole "once she was so damn scary that all her guards killed themselves and she legged it" routine.

Tyr is the God of (organised) warfare. During Ragnarök he is killed by the guarddog of Hel (The Norse version of Hades).

Shadar Haran with a big ass Darkhound?  ;D

Odin. The oldest of the Gods, and ruler of Asgard. Associated with wisdom, war, battle and death, but also trickery and cunning. Often pictured with a (eight-legged)horse and a spear. He had a number of magical artifacts, a spear that never missed its target, the ravens Hugin and Munin who flew around the world and reported back to him, a golden ring (which I do not remember what it was for), and a pair of wolves, Geri and Freki.

This one's easy. Mat.

 

Spear, Prince of the Ravens.

He is further associated with the Wild hunt, where he leads a group of slain warriors across the sky. Other dead warriors under his command are the Valkyries, woman warrior fallen in battle and then given the task of gatheing other souls of brave warriors.

Like Tyr, Odin is a God of war, but he acts more as the bringer of victory.

The Hornsounder.

Odin was hung from Yggdrasil, the world tree, and pierced with his own spear, in order to gain wisdom that would give him power in the nine known worlds. He also sacrificed an eye in order to be allowed to drink from imers Well, and thus gain knowledge of the past, present and future.

Awesome.

Thor. Associated with strength and thunder. Main attriubtes are his hammer Mjölnir, a great beard, a belt that increases his already impressive strength, and a chariot pulled by two goats.

Thors strength is much due to him being the son of Odin and a giant.

Most stories are variations of him using his strength to defeat his main enemies, the giants.

Right, if Mat and Rand are represented, this has to be Pezza.

 

Would Faile count as a goat?  ;D

Odin was known as the Father of Battles as well, and Mat is called Son of Battles by the Finns.

It's clear as day, isn't it?

 

I'm pretty sure that RJ came out and flat out stated that the Nordic gods were a major inspiration.

 

He was a clever old sod, wasn't he?  :)

[Jethro]

Would Faile count as a goat?

 

No, she'd count as two

[Majsju]

Shadar Haran with a big ass Darkhound?

 

Or, since Moridin has been named Nae'blis, he is top dog of the forsaken. Since the DO happens to also be lord of the grave, Moridin could with a bit of a stretch be said to be the DOs guarddog here, which would make it tie in nicely with the Arthurian "prediction".

 

I'm pretty sure that RJ came out and flat out stated that the Nordic gods were a major inspiration.

 

Indeed, though way less direct than the Arthurian legends.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

No, she'd count as two

*Sniggers*

Or, since Moridin has been named Nae'blis, he is top dog of the forsaken. Since the DO happens to also be lord of the grave, Moridin could with a bit of a stretch be said to be the DOs guarddog here, which would make it tie in nicely with the Arthurian "prediction".

Yes ...

 

However, I much prefer my version.

 

Shadar Haran and his minature poodle, Lucifer. It's been dyed pink and wears a leather collar with spikes on.

[sleddog116]

I might be just slightly off-base, but isn't the whole idea of the Wheel and the Pattern sort of based on a Hindu concept?  (Any Hindus on this board?)  The idea of being a single thread woven into a "universal fabric" and the idea of being reincarnated is one of the bases of Hindu belief, if I'm not mistaken (which I may very well be).

[bg.vince.earl@gmail.com]

Callandor will break and will be fixed by Elayne.

 

Isn't Callandor already flawed in some way? Someone help me out with the specifics here. But if it is already flawed, then no need for it to break for Elayne to fix it, right?

[Jambo]

Callandor will break and will be fixed by Elayne.

 

Isn't Callandor already flawed in some way? Someone help me out with the specifics here. But if it is already flawed, then no need for it to break for Elayne to fix it, right?

 

That's what I was thinking too. Callandor is already flawed so maybe Elayne will fix it.

 

I might be just slightly off-base, but isn't the whole idea of the Wheel and the Pattern sort of based on a Hindu concept?  (Any Hindus on this board?)  The idea of being a single thread woven into a "universal fabric" and the idea of being reincarnated is one of the bases of Hindu belief, if I'm not mistaken (which I may very well be).

 

I don't think your off base here at all. I studied that in school and the a major part of hindu belief is a continuously turning wheel type thing that churns out reincarnated souls.

 

I think the reason RJ was able to create such a complex story was becasue he used a lot of myths and ideas from various religions. Without those starting blocks it's doubtful that not only this series, but a lot of other stories, could not have been created.

 

I also find it interesting that the different religions have so many similarities in their stories. Even with the religions that still exist today there are numberous similarities (i.e. look at christianity, judaism, and islam).

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Isn't Callandor already flawed in some way? Someone help me out with the specifics here. But if it is already flawed, then no need for it to break for Elayne to fix it, right?

It is indeed.

 

That's what I was thinking of initially. Now, I'm hoping for a real kind of putting the pieces back together after it shatters scene.

 

Plus, in terms of dramatic impact, fixing the flaw is a bit limp. Fixing a broken Callandor (from loads of bits) is a little more impressive.

[Jethro]

Hmm I dont know. I think it'd be better if Elayne managed to remove the flaws on it rather than it be broken and repaired.

 

bg.vince.earl@gmail.com, the flaw on Callandor is that it lacks the buffer that stops you drawing more of the Power than is safe. The buffer usually makes it impossible to draw more than you and the angreal/sa'angreal can normally use, but Callandor doesnt. It also magnifies the effects of the Taint-and that means even though Saidin is clean the channeler is still likely to lose control or whatever if the Taint has already affected them enough.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Its been a while since I've read Morte de Arthur, but wasn't Gawain actually killed by Lancelot.  I remember Lancelot and Gwenevere having an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur.  During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death.  Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some since into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

[CUBAREY]

Just to throw out the most obvious links:

 

I in christian beliefs (mythalogies) the "savior" is born of a virgin (maiden). In both ancient egyptian and christian mythalogies the hero comes back to life after being killed. In ancient Egyptian mythalogy is wife (Isis) gathers his parts and resurrocts him.

 

 

On Arthurian legends you forgot to mention Merlin the Magician and Thom Merlin the gleeman ( in one of the early books Thom while talking about remembered stories from past ages says that facts becomce jumbled so that in the future he could be seen as a hero who "breaths fire", etc.).

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Its been a while since I've read Morte de Arthur, but wasn't Gawain actually killed by Lancelot.   I remember Lancelot and Gwenevere having an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur.  During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death.

It depends on the version of the Arthur legend, there are French, Welsh, and German tales as well.

 

I see the Arthurian legends as being similar to those surrounding Achilles. The "official" version of the Achilles legend is retold in the Illiad. The opening line "Sing furies of the wrath of Achilles" clearly sets out the tale. But, the main issue that dominates the Illiad, the seizing of Brazias, isn't included in much detail. You then get sources like Aeschylus' Ajax, or the tales of Achilles' son, Neoptolomus. All these add additional information to the story of Achilles. It's that body of text, with all the contradictory, or ambiguous statements that form the body of the myth. This is probably as a result of the time periods and the intent of the authors.

 

The Arthurian legends are the same deal. The story of Arthur, in its basic form, isn't a Grail Romance. If you think of Paganism when reading the legend of Arthur several things leap from the page. The Gaelic names, the Lady of the Lake, and Avalon are all paganistic in nature. Avalon itself is often seen as a reference to Angelsea (sp?) the home of teh druids, etc.. The details of the knights, their back stories and lives, are often later, or earlier, side-stories. The Grail Romance traditions add an awful lot of information, some of it contradictory, some not. The issue of Gwaine's death is one that's open.

 

- And I'm aware, there are sections of the original post that are widely up for debate. I picked the aspects that I believed had a bearing. I'm going to add your comment to the original post (and Cubareys) for the sake of it.  :)

Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some since into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

I hope not.

 

That depends on if you view Lan as Lancelot. I'm not sure.... I'm going to have a think about that. --- But I'll add it to the original post.  :)

On Arthurian legends you forgot to mention Merlin the Magician and Thom Merlin the gleeman ( in one of the early books Thom while talking about remembered stories from past ages says that facts becomce jumbled so that in the future he could be seen as a hero who "breaths fire", etc.).

*Introduces his palm to his forehead*

 

Uuurrrgggghhhhh.... that's so obvious, it's something I noticed when I first read the series, immediately after the drawing of Callandor and the obvious Arthur link ....

 

Cheers Cuba. I'm an idiot and that's getting added to the first post.  :)

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Updated the first post.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Thin Inn Keeper, I agree that the connection between Lan and Lancelot is rather superficial.  The only real connection is that each is arguably the world greatest warrior in his respective story.    The Knights of the Round Table are the world's best fighters and Lancelot is the best among them( though I believe in some stories Gawain is actually given that honor).  Similarly Warders are Randland's best fighters and Lan is the best among them.

 

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere.  This is forgivable since the connection is just as superficial as that between Lancelot and Lan.  The only real connection I see is that Guinavere was a queen and Egwene is the Amyrllin which is a good as if not better than being queen.  I guess you could also argue that each was part of a rebel faction since Guinavere was the cause the Lancelot's rebellion against Arthur and Egwene is the leader of the rebel Aes Sedi. 

 

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

Thin Inn Keeper, I agree that the connection between Lan and Lancelot is rather superficial.   The only real connection is that each is arguably the world greatest warrior in his respective story.    The Knights of the Round Table are the world's best fighters and Lancelot is the best among them( though I believe in some stories Gawain is actually given that honor).  Similarly Warders are Randland's best fighters and Lan is the best among them.

 

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere.  This is forgivable since the connection is just as superficial as that between Lancelot and Lan.  The only real connection I see is that Guinavere was a queen and Egwene is the Amyrllin which is a good as if not better than being queen.  I guess you could also argue that each was part of a rebel faction since Guinavere was the cause the Lancelot's rebellion against Arthur and Egwene is the leader of the rebel Aes Sedi.

 

 

Perhaps then that would make Gawyn, the Lancelot character. Seeing how he feels about Rand he could very well go into open rebellion against him. Until Morgase comes back out in the open and he see's her with his own eyes he may very well try and bring Rand down or at least try to kill him.  And given the previous relationship between Thom and Morgase then wouldn't that make her the Morganan (sp!) reference who if I remember my Arthur correctly was Merlin's lover and student at one point?

 

 

Darth_Andrea          

 

[Mr Ares]

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur

Uther Pendragon

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag? Uther Pendragon = Luthair Paendrag?

[Tyrell]

Yeah I always figured Artur Paendrag / Hawkwing was King Arthur.

[CUBAREY]

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere. 

 

A more tenuous comparison between Guinavere and Egwene Al'Vere, both are originally the love interest of the hero (King Arthur and Rand Al'Thor, respectively) who somewhat innocently fall for a Knight.

[Pixiedragon]

In some versions of the story it's indeed Morgan le Fay that's Merlins student/lover.

But in other versions it's Nimue who takes that role.

Personally, I have no idea which version RJ preferred. :p

 

Next to that, the name Morgase is more similar to Morgause.

Morgause is the mother of Gawain (and Mordred, though in some modern versions where Morgause doesn't exist Morgan is his mother)

 

To be honest, I don't think we'd see the Arthur-WoT connections as prominent in the books as to be able to predict what will happen in the last books.

I can't really see the connection between Morgan le Fay and Morgase, apart from a slight similarity in name.

Whatever the version, if it contains Morgan le Fay (or Morgana, Morgaine, Morgane, Morgain, whatever you wish), she's a powerful witch or sorceress and pretty damn scary as well.

So if there is any Morgan le Fay in the books I'd say it's Moiraine, since she is considered rather powerful and pretty damn scary at some times.

Next to that, though I haven't read it in years so I'm not absolutely certain, Morgaine in "Mists of Avalon" by Marion Zimmer Bradley has a reputation quite similar to the reputation Moraine has in Eye of the World.

I'm not saying RJ read Mists of Avalon as wel or something, but he might have taken the same conclusion as to Morgan's reputation as Bradley has.

Another reason to connect Morgan to Moiraine instead of Morgase would be that Morgan was important at Arthur's healing when he is taken to Avalon, like Moiraine is seemingly important to keep Rand alive.

Unfortunately, there are so many different stories featuring the many different versions of Morgan le Fay, it's hard to say which is which.