One Power strength

[Meigo Vanday]

I have a question that may only be tangentially related to this topic, regarding the strength of the Forsaken.

 

Doesn't the Guide tell us how strong the Forsaken are in relation to each other? I always assumed that the order they were presented in corresponds to their strength. What leads me to this assumption is the fact that the first male Forsaken presented is Ishamael, who we know to be the strongest, while the last of them is Asmodean, whom we know to be the weakest. The same with Lanfear and Moghedien, respectively. Also, Aginor's entry comes right behind Ishamael's and mentions him to be the second strongest of the men.

I believe the order they are presented in the book is:

Men - Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Demandred, Asmodean

Women - Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien

 

This confuses me somewhat, as it seems that Demandred is often regarded as one of the strongest Forsaken, when according to my theory, he'd be rather weak. Am I mistaken about the significance of this order of presentation? ???

[Nightstrike]

Doesn't the Guide tell us how strong the Forsaken are in relation to each other? I always assumed that the order they were presented in corresponds to their strength. What leads me to this assumption is the fact that the first male Forsaken presented is Ishamael, who we know to be the strongest, while the last of them is Asmodean, whom we know to be the weakest. The same with Lanfear and Moghedien, respectively. Also, Aginor's entry comes right behind Ishamael's and mentions him to be the second strongest of the men.

I believe the order they are presented in the book is:

Men - Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Demandred, Asmodean

Women - Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien

 

This confuses me somewhat, as it seems that Demandred is often regarded as one of the strongest Forsaken, when according to my theory, he'd be rather weak. Am I mistaken about the significance of this order of presentation? ???

No, I think the order might well be "intended" to show some order of strength. But if you read the preface:..."Reliable sources are limited. Almost all documents from before the war of the hundred years survive only as copies, or copies of copies, etc, and thus may well include mistakes made by the scribes.". And the rest of the preface continues to explain why certain "facts" may be more or less incorrect. The Guide is a compilation that the present day Aes Sedai have to go on (they think those things are true, but they might not all be). The Guide is just a guide, and the rest of the WoT books are more reliable as a source of facts. But I do think that the vaste majority of the "facts" in the Guide really are correct. The occasional error certainly makes the whole thing more realistic.

[Gentled Ben]

I think that part of it may be that differences in strength at the level of the Forsaken may be very slight. In the previous example from the guide, for instance, Bel'al might only be .1% stronger than Demandred. After all, Rand judges Aginor (as Dashiva) and Rahvin, concluding that both are nearly as strong as he is, which may well be true. To just use numbers of convenience in order to illustrate (I am NOT referring to anyone's scale nor making one of my own here), perhaps Rand is 100, Aginor 99.95, Rahvin 99.92, etc. That allows for Asmodean to be the weakling among the Forsaken, yet still not one to be taken lightly--a formidable channeler by any standard, including the standards of the Age in which he rose to infamy.

 

Perhaps thinking of them as Olympic athletes would help. Consider the Forsaken to be the best channeling athletes on the Shadow's AoL Olympic team. Ishamael is the best, followed closely by Lanfear amohng the females and Aginor among the males. Then, bringing up the rear, here come Asmodean and Moghedien (assuming she's actualy the weakest female Forsaken). Throughout these books, we've read about how awesome Ishy and Lanfear are, and we've seen Asmo and Mogggy both get chumped by the heroes in the story, so we assume that Ishy and Lanfear are leaps and bounds beyond the two who managed to get themselves trapped by our heroes, but really, it is quite possible that hte differences among them are much like those among Olympic athletes...tenths of a second, so to speak. Michael Phelps (I'm an American, so I gotta go with the athletes I watched), set records swimming and was remarkable, but that did not make the last place swimmer in any of those races slow or incompetent. Phelps did not win by minutes.  :P

 

 

[Nightstrike]

There's a big gap between Lanfear and Graendal, and there's a big gap between Cyndane and Moghedien. Siuan became somewhere between 33% and 49% of her original strength after she was Healed. That corresponds to a loss of something like 13-17 strength units. It's very likely that Lanfear was 13-17 strength units (or more) stronger than Graendal. And Graendal thought (about Cyndane):..."Where had the Spider found a girl that much stronger than herself?".

 

Rand matched Asmodean at a time where Rand was quite a bit weaker than his end-potential:... "He had thought that he was strong before, but Asmodean’s teachings were making him stronger." (TFoH, The Gift of a Blade). RJ said that Aginor was so much stronger than Balthamel in TEotW that Aginor was the one in charge on those merits alone. Can't have been only a tenth of a percent, could it?

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

What leads me to this assumption is the fact that the first male Forsaken presented is Ishamael, who we know to be the strongest, while the last of them is Asmodean, whom we know to be the weakest.

Do we? Can we have a quote to tha effect?

The same with Lanfear and Moghedien, respectively.

Again, while we know Lanfear to be the strongest, we do not know Moghedien to be the weakest, unless you know something the rest of us have missed?

 

RJ said that Aginor was so much stronger than Balthamel in TEotW that Aginor was the one in charge on those merits alone.

I wasn't aware of that, either. Quotes?

[Nightstrike]

Tor Questions - Aug. 04 to Jan 05

 

 

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Tor Questions - Aug. 04 to Jan 05

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

Oh, you were just making stuff up. Got it. Because that quote says nothing of the sort, not that Aginor was in charge, not that he was substantially stronger, least of all that he was in charge because he was substantially stronger, in fact it doesn't even say, nor does it imply, that Aginor was even the stronger of the two. We know he was, but from other sources. All that highlighted portion tells us is that Aginor would likely have tried to do away with his "accomplice" once he had the Eye secure. Given what we know of Balthamel, we know he would also have tried to kill Aginor.

[Nightstrike]

All that highlighted portion tells us is that Aginor would likely have tried to do away with his "accomplice" once he had the Eye secure. Given what we know of Balthamel, we know he would also have tried to kill Aginor.

What? Are you suggesting that "Administered by" means "killed by"? And wouldn't "for the long drop", in case of "killed by", also mean that Aginor is stronger than Balthamel (which I was saying all the time)?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The original 13 forsaken were the only ones left from a continuous secret war between the Chosen.  Moghedien survived because she had some strength, but mainly because of her secrecy and inability to be noticed.  But the rest survived mainly because they WERE THE STRONGEST OF THE CHOSEN.

 

So though I agree that Bathamael would be weaker than Aginor, he wouldn't have been that much weaker.

[Gentled Ben]

All that highlighted portion tells us is that Aginor would likely have tried to do away with his "accomplice" once he had the Eye secure. Given what we know of Balthamel, we know he would also have tried to kill Aginor.

What? Are you suggesting that "Administered by" means "killed by"? And wouldn't "for the long drop", in case of "killed by", also mean that Aginor is stronger than Balthamel (which I was saying all the time)?

 

Yes, he's suggesting that it means killed by, he is correct that your quote does not support your position, and no one disputes that Aginor was stronger; however, some are disputing the degree of that difference. A weaker channeler can kill a stronger one anyway, so Aginor does not have to be considerably stronger than Balthamel to kill him. Witness Moiraine and Be'lal...

 

And where do you come up with this idea of a large gap between Lanfear and Graendal? There is nothing to support large gaps between the Chosen. What they think is a big difference may well be only slight percentages.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, he's suggesting that it means killed by, he is correct that your quote does not support your position, and no one disputes that Aginor was stronger; however, some are disputing the degree of that difference. A weaker channeler can kill a stronger one anyway, so Aginor does not have to be considerably stronger than Balthamel to kill him. Witness Moiraine and Be'lal...

So, Gentled Ben, you don't believe that there's a long drop between Aginor and Balthamel? Read what RJ said once more, because he said that there was a long drop between them.

 

And where do you come up with this idea of a large gap between Lanfear and Graendal? There is nothing to support large gaps between the Chosen. What they think is a big difference may well be only slight percentages.

Oh, oh... Where ever did I come up with this idea that I've explained in so many posts - many of them quite recently? Where ever have I done that? It's really no mystery at all. Quite self-evident, actually. Are you suggesting only slight percentages between, for example, Lanfear and Moghedien? If you are, then you should better explain how that could be possible - because, as I have already explained (try looking further up this page), it is not possible. You can't explain the impossible, because the impossible has never happened and it never will. So, good luck with explaining that!

[General Cauthon]

Quote from: Gentled Ben on Today at 16:49:25

Yes, he's suggesting that it means killed by, he is correct that your quote does not support your position, and no one disputes that Aginor was stronger; however, some are disputing the degree of that difference. A weaker channeler can kill a stronger one anyway, so Aginor does not have to be considerably stronger than Balthamel to kill him. Witness Moiraine and Be'lal...

So, Gentled Ben, you don't believe that there's a long drop between Aginor and Balthamel? Read what RJ said once more, because he said that there was a long drop between them.

 

Have YOU read the quote? You must be the only one who doesn't understand the meaning of that metafor.... Let me try to explain it for you:

 

Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently

 

Meaning: "Balthamel might well have been killed by Aginor, if Aginor gained control of the Eye"

[Gentled Ben]

Yes, he's suggesting that it means killed by, he is correct that your quote does not support your position, and no one disputes that Aginor was stronger; however, some are disputing the degree of that difference. A weaker channeler can kill a stronger one anyway, so Aginor does not have to be considerably stronger than Balthamel to kill him. Witness Moiraine and Be'lal...

So, Gentled Ben, you don't believe that there's a long drop between Aginor and Balthamel? Read what RJ said once more, because he said that there was a long drop between them.

 

No, he said that Balthamel was in for the long drop, meaning, as many have already pointed out to you, that Aginor would have killed him if he'd gained control of the eye.

 

 

 

And where do you come up with this idea of a large gap between Lanfear and Graendal? There is nothing to support large gaps between the Chosen. What they think is a big difference may well be only slight percentages.

Oh, oh... Where ever did I come up with this idea that I've explained in so many posts - many of them quite recently? Where ever have I done that? It's really no mystery at all. Quite self-evident, actually. Are you suggesting only slight percentages between, for example, Lanfear and Moghedien? If you are, then you should better explain how that could be possible - because, as I have already explained (try looking further up this page), it is not possible. You can't explain the impossible, because the impossible has never happened and it never will. So, good luck with explaining that!

 

Oh, oh...you mean your made-up chart that has been taken apart. Right...how silly of me...

 

And yes, I am suggesting only slight percentages between Lanfear and Moghedien. That is exactly what I am suggesting. There is no chart for strength, dude. We have a few placements that we can be sure of because RJ told us where those individuals stood in relation to others, and that's it; we don't even know the degree of difference between them, so you've proven nothing, and I can prove nothing, which has been Mr Ares' (winning) argument for some time now, though you fail to see it...

[Nightstrike]

No, he said that Balthamel was in for the long drop, meaning, as many have already pointed out to you, that Aginor would have killed him if he'd gained control of the eye.

He didn't say "in for the long drop". And even if he meant that Balthamel were toast, that would mean that Aginor is that much stronger than Balthamel. Exactly my point. If you're correct, then my point is even stronger than I initially thought. The difference between them must be greater than I initially thought, especially if Mr Ares suggestions of cuttable weaves also would be correct (which I don't believe for a second).

 

 

And where do you come up with this idea of a large gap between Lanfear and Graendal? There is nothing to support large gaps between the Chosen. What they think is a big difference may well be only slight percentages.

Oh, oh... Where ever did I come up with this idea that I've explained in so many posts - many of them quite recently? Where ever have I done that? It's really no mystery at all. Quite self-evident, actually. Are you suggesting only slight percentages between, for example, Lanfear and Moghedien? If you are, then you should better explain how that could be possible - because, as I have already explained (try looking further up this page), it is not possible. You can't explain the impossible, because the impossible has never happened and it never will. So, good luck with explaining that!

 

Oh, oh...you mean your made-up chart that has been taken apart. Right...how silly of me...

 

And yes, I am suggesting only slight percentages between Lanfear and Moghedien. That is exactly what I am suggesting. There is no chart for strength, dude. We have a few placements that we can be sure of because RJ told us where those individuals stood in relation to others, and that's it; we don't even know the degree of difference between them, so you've proven nothing, and I can prove nothing, which has been Mr Ares' (winning) argument for some time now, though you fail to see it...

I see you didn't argue for your case now either. You really got nothing, right? Just what I thought! My point still stands. Last time you posted, it was obvious that you hadn't read anything I'd written. Yet you had opinions that you thought you were ready to share with the rest of us. So, please, let me quote myself from earlier:

There's a big gap between Lanfear and Graendal, and there's a big gap between Cyndane and Moghedien. Siuan became somewhere between 33% and 49% of her original strength after she was Healed. That corresponds to a loss of something like 13-17 strength units. It's very likely that Lanfear was 13-17 strength units (or more) stronger than Graendal. And Graendal thought (about Cyndane):..."Where had the Spider found a girl that much stronger than herself?".

 

Rand matched Asmodean at a time where Rand was quite a bit weaker than his end-potential:... "He had thought that he was strong before, but Asmodean’s teachings were making him stronger." (TFoH, The Gift of a Blade).

 

 

 

[Meigo Vanday]

What leads me to this assumption is the fact that the first male Forsaken presented is Ishamael, who we know to be the strongest, while the last of them is Asmodean, whom we know to be the weakest.

Do we? Can we have a quote to tha effect?

The same with Lanfear and Moghedien, respectively.

Again, while we know Lanfear to be the strongest, we do not know Moghedien to be the weakest, unless you know something the rest of us have missed?

Actually, and to my shame, I must admit that I cannot defend these assertions with quotes. Moghedien and Asmodean being the weakest woman and man respectively is just the gist I got from reading the books. It is, of course, very possible that I am talking out of my ass. I shouldn't have said we know those things without having quotes to back them up. My Apologies. Still, may I ask your opinion on what the presentation order in the Guide erflects (if anything)?

 

ETA: Frankly, Nightstrike, I don't see how this quote can be read as anything else than what Mr Ares, Gentled Ben and General Cauthon have said. Namely that Aginor would have killed Balthamel given the opportunity.

[Nightstrike]

ETA: Frankly, Nightstrike, I don't see how this quote can be read as anything else than what Mr Ares, Gentled Ben and General Cauthon have said. Namely that Aginor would have killed Balthamel given the opportunity.

OK, sorry! English isn't my mother language, so "for the long drop" or "in for the long drop" were expressions I wasn't familiar with. Still, I think that might cause me to reassess my little chart. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

 

I still say there's a big strength difference between Lanfear and Moghedien, though.

[Nightstrike]

... , in fact it doesn't even say, nor does it imply, that Aginor was even the stronger of the two. We know he was, but from other sources.

I wonder what sources you're thinking of?

 

[Thor]

someone made the reference to olympic atheletes and this is true.  there is an absolutely huge difference between 9 seconds and 10 seconds, and that is only 10% difference.

 

10% difference is huge. anymore than that, and it wouldn't even be a contest.

[Mr Ares]

... , in fact it doesn't even say, nor does it imply, that Aginor was even the stronger of the two. We know he was, but from other sources.

I wonder what sources you're thinking of?

The Guide for one. That Aginor is the second strongest man amongst the Chosen has already been covered at length in this thread.

 

Moghedien and Asmodean being the weakest woman and man respectively is just the gist I got from reading the books.

The problem is that people seem to confuse the weaknesses of their characters - Moghedien's cowardice, for example, and Asmo being unwilling to accept pain in order to break his shield - with weakness in the Power.

Still, may I ask your opinion on what the presentation order in the Guide erflects (if anything)?

You may indeed. I don't think it is representative of anything in particular.

 

The original 13 forsaken were the only ones left from a continuous secret war between the Chosen. Moghedien survived because she had some strength, but mainly because of her secrecy and inability to be noticed. But the rest survived mainly because they WERE THE STRONGEST OF THE CHOSEN.

Not so. At the time of the Strike, there were many Chosen, but only 13 were caught in the Bore. The War continued for many years, decades even, after the Sealing, until the Breaking made continuing impossible and survival a more immediate imperative. Their survival and rise to power amongst other Chosen before the Sealing was due to a variety of factors. Not falling foul of Shai'tan was a big one - His mistrust means your death. Politics, assassinations of rivals, their own successes against the enemy. Strength is not that big a deal in and of itself, unless you are a Third Age Aes Sedai. Aginor was a scientist, he created the Shadowspawn. You can see how that might have raised him up above many others. Demandred, like Sammael and Be'lal, was a skilled general - great successes on the battlefield would be to his credit. Strength in the Power would be only a minor factor. Without other abilities, they would have failed and died, and no doubt many very strong channelers did not rise to the same heights, or did so only to later come crashing down.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

In the glossary of some of the books it says that there were many more Chosen, but that the rest had DIED before the end of the War.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Demandred also mentioned that as many Chosen died from the Dark One's suspicions of loyalty as any other way of dying.  I just always assumed that the 13 Forsaken who were caught in the Bore were the last remaining Chosen.  The big white book says that when Lews Therin showed up "the 13 most powerful Chosen" happened to be there at a meeting.

 

If there were remaining Chosen I don't know...it seems like if there were any Chosen worth mentioning they would have taken over after the 13 were trapped.  I guess the protection against the taint of saidin didn't come until later so perhaps they all died out by madness (the male ones) and the female Chosen who were not trapped were just not worth mentioning after their big leaders were gone.

[Mr Ares]

In the glossary of some of the books it says that there were many more Chosen, but that the rest had DIED before the end of the War.

In a Question fo the Week, RJ said:

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

The Strike At Shayol Ghul also contains the following footnote:

Before her death during the Breaking (which cannot be specified from the evidence of the manuscript, unfortunately either as to time or place), Latra Posae apparently rose to a prominence which rivaled that of Lews Therin before her. During the fighting aginst the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor, best translated as "Cutter of the Shadow" or perhaps "Slicer of the Shadow" (the difficulties of precise translation from the Old Tongue, with all its multiple meanings, will always remain with us). It is thus ironic that no other document yet discovered so much as mentions her name or acomplishments. Perhaps this will serve to restore Latra Posae Decume to her proper place in history.

So, even though the war was supposedly over, fighting carried on, there were still Chosen around, and Latra Posae rose to prominence rivalling LTT fighting them during the early parts of the Breaking. Part of the problem for the Shadow was that they were more divided than the Light, with Shai'tan encouraging infighting. After the Strike, they turned on each other. Also, at the time of the Strike, the Shadow was winning. All the channelers they had were Chosen. So do you really think they were reduced to just 13, but were still crushing the Light, which still had hundreds, probably thousands of channlers still?

[tuesdae666]

Of course I'm wrong!

I'm glad you can finally see it.

 

Really, what is there left to say?

I stated as much as that in my first post and I've done so later on also. Only YOU, who call others "idiots", would be STUPID enough not to see it. That is, if we're not counting the other marks of stupidity that Mr Ares have presented in this thread. It was ludicruos to consider average Aes Sedai at 50% of Lanfear's strength (which was Luckers' argument, but Mr Ares did not object that "we can't know"), it was idiotic to suggest that the Forsaken can cut any flow, it was brain-dead to suggest lifting things were determined by something enterily different from OP strength, and so on. Mr Ares, in addition to your other failings as a person, you're the biggest idiot on these forums. And surely that's why you keep calling others "idiot"! You have got to take it out on someone else, don't you? Well, I for one, can see right through you. I hope others do too.

Nightstrike, why do you continue doing this to yourself? You must surely know by now that it is only going to end badly for you. You did not say you were wrong in your first post. You said you were making your best guesses, which is not the same thing at all. A best guess may, after all, end up being correct. Your original plan was to put forward a list with all the channelers on, showing, with lots of nice numbers, things like how strong they are in relation to one another. Problems arise, however, when you take into account that there is no basis for any of those numbers. Furthermore, there is no basis for most of those placements, and little enough for the rest. But even when there was evidence to the contrary, you chose to ignore it in favour of whatever took your fancy. Even when your "best guess" was shown to directly contradict the facts, you still held to it. You can't just brush that under the carpet by saying you were just making a best guess, or by saying you were bound to be wrong on some things. This is you refusing to have your mind changed by the evidence, and now trying to claim what? That the plan was always to be wrong? That that was your intention? So why all this argument? It can't be for the purpose of reasoned debate, as your refusal to listen to reason shows. So why? Just to troll? And what marks of "stupidity" have Mr Ares shown in this thread? You say it is ludicrous to say that Aes Sedai strength is 50% of Lanfear's (which Aes Sedai strength? Average? Minimum? Maximum? All?), but you cannot say why it is ludicrous. Furthermore, it was not even my argument. I do not have to support it, nor do I have to object to it. If you want Luckers to show you his working, I'm sure he can. In fact, I've seen this argued many times before. If you want him to support his point, ask him. But it is not my point, and me neither supporting nor contradicting it cannot be taken as idiocy by any reasonable person. You say it is idiotic to suggest the Chosen can cut any flow, but why is it idiotic? We've been over this several times, and you can put forward any reason why they shouldn't be able to, nor can you put forward any reasonable place to put the line, if it does exist, that is not just randomly stuck wherever you fancied sticking it. The only reason you can put forward for it being idiotic amounts to it being idiotic because you say it is, which is no reason at all. All the evidence you put forward to support was shown to not support you at all. So, not idiotic, so much as fairly reasonable. We have no reason to believe in the existence of a limit beyond which it is impossible to cut flows. Not idiotic in the slightest, so much as completely correct in every particular. As for brain-dead to suggest lifting is determined by something other than OP strength, was that my argument? Or was my argument that we do not know if ability to lift increases in a linear or exponential, or something else, fashion? In which case, lifting would indeed be determined by OP strength. And you do not say why either what I said or what you said I said could even be considered brain-dead. As with everything else you have said, you cannot justify it. Empty words. A voice and nothing more. Every argument you have put forward has been dealt with, proven wrong. There is nothing to support you. And this idiocy is apparent only to you. No-one else can see it. What does that tell you? That everyone else on the board is to dumb to see it, or maybe that you need to take a good long look in the mirror and work out who the idiot really is. Now, your choices at the moment appear to be as follows: Put forward an argument. Give up and go. Carry on talking irrelevant rubbish. All your arguments have been disproven, so unless you have something new there is little point. Talking irrelvant rubbish like you have been in recent post is a good way to piss off the mods, which is a little unfair on them. Or go away, which is easy on them, easy on me, easy on you, and allows you to escape with at least some dignity intact. Now, can we consider this at an end?

 

Actually, it is mentioned in the books quite distinctly that lifting is based on OP strength.

 

I don't have the book title, chapter and page number, but I can point out the instance when it was mentioned.

 

1)It was mentioned that no one can use the one power to lift themselves, no matter how strong they are in the One Power.

 

2)Siuan trying to raise Gareth Bryne up after being stilled and healed; then she couldn't and was shocked. She said she had always been strong in the OP and she was able to move at least twice Gareth's weight before she was healed.

[norse]

I know this thread is starting to get old. I just thought I should pop in a post this link.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

there you have a lot of quotes at least a few of which speaks against some of the discussions happening in the earlier pages(only bothered to read about 10-12 of them before posting this). I especially reacted towards the post about Siuan and here apparent strength loss which is way of its mark unless I just missunderstood the post or the quote from the book for that matter. I'm new to the forum so at the moment I don't know how to quote although it was "Luckers" who said it. Ill just paste the quote for those of you here that don't have the time, or patience, to read through the link.

 

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way"

 

All in all I think his level system makes a lot of sense, of course most of it is assumptions and I have to agree with luckers on the point of moghedien being very hard do position in a scale so I think she is of the mark.

 

This list is only female channelers though, although that seemed to be one of the main issues, where to place the AS against the forsaken.

 

Interesting discussion though and I have to say that all of you have some good points. Even though I think that lucker is a bit to harsh on people trying to have their on opinions and trying to build a rakning system. After all it is just a book, and if I would like for Cyndane to be stronger than Alivia there is really nothing stoping that for being true for me since there is no evidence either way really, at least no clear evidence.

[Nightstrike]

To quote something, you need to mark the text you want to have in the "quote" area, then you press the next-to-last button above the emoticons. The button in question has a yellow "speaking bubble" in it. When you place the pointer on it, you see "Insert Quote" next to the pointer.