Shadar Logoth

[Thor]

Ugh can't remember spelling.

Anyways.

 

Without SL, Saidin couldn't have been cleansed.  But it was the downfall of Aridhol that precipitated the end of the Ten Nations.

 

So.  Is SL good or bad?

[Ndshacker]

It is bad, but at the same time it is good that what happened did happen.

[ROB_88]

it's bad in a good way.

like a spanking ;D

[mb]

Shadar Logoth to me would be both good and bad.

Good because it hates/hated anything of the Dark.

Bad because it is/was also corrupt.

 

 

it's bad in a good way.

like a spanking ;D

 

According to some psychologists, spanking is actually good when used in the proper situations (like the discipline of young children).

 

[Luckers]

Which is why he said bad in a good way, i think.

 

Aridhol's fall did not precipitate the fall of the Ten Nations. The Trolloc Wars did that, and indeed Aridhol's fall was a reaction to the Trolloc Wars itself. If it had stood it would have been left in tatters by the end just as the rest were.

 

Shaidar Logoth is a nasty place. It served a purpose, but ultimately it was bad. Then again thats the problem of these unilateral descriptions of 'good' and 'bad', or 'evil'.

 

 

[Cockta]

Shadar Logoth to me would be both good and bad.

Good because it hates/hated anything of the Dark.

Bad because it is/was also corrupt.

 

 

it's bad in a good way.

like a spanking ;D

 

According to some psychologists, spanking is actually good when used in the proper situations (like the discipline of young children).

 

 

And it's good when you have sex, and spank that bitch ;)

[Thor]

Which is why he said bad in a good way, i think.

 

Aridhol's fall did not precipitate the fall of the Ten Nations. The Trolloc Wars did that, and indeed Aridhol's fall was a reaction to the Trolloc Wars itself. If it had stood it would have been left in tatters by the end just as the rest were.

 

Shaidar Logoth is a nasty place. It served a purpose, but ultimately it was bad. Then again thats the problem of these unilateral descriptions of 'good' and 'bad', or 'evil'.

 

Judging from how the Trollocs barely overrun Manatheren even while using a large portion of their forces, if Aridhol had sent any help to Manatheren trapping the trollocs from both sides, I'm sure they would have been victorious.  And that would have been a turning point in the war and the Ten Nations would not have fallen.

 

But ofcourse we will never know now.

 

 

[Jethro]

Without SL, Saidin couldn't have been cleansed

 

Can I ask where that thought came from? The location of the Cleansing wasnt important to its possibility. The location only meant that Rand could use the Taint to destroy Shadar Logoth and that he could defend easily; if Shadar Logoth didnt exist he would have found somewhere else

[Luckers]

Judging from how the Trollocs barely overrun Manatheren even while using a large portion of their forces, if Aridhol had sent any help to Manatheren trapping the trollocs from both sides, I'm sure they would have been victorious.  And that would have been a turning point in the war and the Ten Nations would not have fallen.

 

But ofcourse we will never know now.

 

Well, technically speaking the Trollocs did not 'barely' overrun Manetheren. They won decisively--yes, the armies of Manetheren under Aemon were able to resist far longer than they should have, something supported by the courage of the Manetheren pesentry in going to join that force. But nevertheless in the end the Trollocs won completely, and were not left weak after that. Eldrene then killed all the Dreadlords with them by drawing far too much of the One Power (supposedly with the aid of a sa'angreal according to the BWB, though that makes no sense since sa'angreal are supposed to be buffeted against drawing too much--unless it was flawed like Callandor), and that drove the Trolloc army into a panic and made them flee--supposedly to be later hunted down--yet nothing supports them attaining a 'bare' victroy.

 

Nor do we know for a fact that the Shadow was using a large portion of its forces in that attack. It's well stated that the Light was massively outnumbered at all stages throughout the Trolloc Wars.

 

Beyond which Aridhol was not alone in the betrayal of Manetheren. Tetsuan was specifically deposed because she stopped Aes Sedai riding to Manetheren's aid out of jealousy of Eldrene's strength in the power.

 

Aside from which the 8 other nations were just as completely wiped out without the specific betrayals involved in Manetheren's fall. If they could achieve that i don't see how Aridhol's continued survival can be stated to have turned the Trolloc Wars.

 

Can I ask where that thought came from? The location of the Cleansing wasnt important to its possibility. The location only meant that Rand could use the Taint to destroy Shadar Logoth and that he could defend easily; if Shadar Logoth didnt exist he would have found somewhere else

 

He needed somewhere to dispose of the taint. Shaidar Logoth's evil was opposite to the taint, using it, making the two evils fight each other, he destroyed both. Without Shaidar Logoth he could have rid saidin of the taint--yet were would he put it? That black dome we saw would have continued to grow to consume the world without Shadar Logoth's opposing evil, exactly as Moghedian suggested was possible.

 

 

[Jethro]

Ah, I dont personally remember Moggys comment on that. I must admit I like the idea of the two evils working against each other, both in Rands wounds as well as at Shadar Logoth, although I think it would have been good if the Taint had some other effect once being removed-it would have been great if the Taint turned out to be the True Power mixed into Saidin, and after the Cleansing a pool being created out of the True Power? Like an Eye of the World being made of the True Power...that would have been good.

[Tel Janin]

Without SL, Saidin couldn't have been cleansed

 

Can I ask where that thought came from? The location of the Cleansing wasnt important to its possibility. The location only meant that Rand could use the Taint to destroy Shadar Logoth and that he could defend easily; if Shadar Logoth didnt exist he would have found somewhere else

 

This is awesome.  Do you think the pattern spun out Mordeth just so he could corrupt SL, just so Rand could use the evil of SL to cleanse the Taint from saidin?  :o

 

Man, I love this series...  ;D

[Jethro]

Well, sometimes good and evil are both necessary. There are several reasons why SL might have become the way it was; the party in EotW needed somewhere they could run to that even Shadowspawn feared, Mat needed to find that dagger-which I still think is the cause of his luck, but thats a different topic for a different thread-and as mentioned, Rand needed another force to dump the Taint onto.

 

Sometimes evil is necessary. I have seen on here people saying a Darkfriend Ta'veren is an impossibility-people state it as if it is black and white and that it crosses boundaries. Check this out, from RJs blog.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

 

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.

 

The Pattern allowed Mordeth to be the way he is, just like it allows a Ta'veren to be the way it is. If two Ta'veren conflicting can be a corrective manuever, why cant one of those Ta'veren be a Darkfriend? Its unlikely, but it is possible.

[Thor]

To Luckers:

I think it was in emond's field when Moiraine was telling Manatheren's story.  That Manatheren was a thorn to the shadow, but when at last the shadow focused their forces at Manatheren, there was no help.  Something along those lines.

 

To other people:

Moiraine has stated that though the Creator is good, the Pattern is not necessarily so.  Hence there is no reason why there can't be evil Ta varens.

[Jethro]

Exactly, so we have an in-book quote as well as an RJ comment proving that a Darkfriend could become Ta'veren.

 

One thing that annoys me about Shadar Logoth is the description of its source of power. Mordeth is a very patchy entity in comparison to everything else in Wheel of Time, there is no "realistic" explanation for its abilites. The Dark One is a God figure and so has great power, he can alter reality and grant powers and such like. But Mordeth aparantly came about by the corruption of the city of Aridhol... do you see what I mean? At some random point it became more than a man, by being...corrupt. It isn't as "Wheel of Time realistic" as everything else. So in other words, if anyone decides to become as dark as the Shadow and begin corrupting everything in one location, you get powers. Nice powers at that, yet there isnt anything else that even resembles another entity being created in such a manner. Why isnt there any other individuals who have evolved like this?

[Luckers]

To Luckers:

I think it was in emond's field when Moiraine was telling Manatheren's story.  That Manatheren was a thorn to the shadow, but when at last the shadow focused their forces at Manatheren, there was no help.  Something along those lines.

 

She never said that specifically--she stated a huge army was sent, but we have no knowledge of what percentage of the Shadow's forces it represented--indeed we know the Shadow vastly outnumbered the light.

 

As for no help, there wasn't any--Aridhol was being selfish, Tetsuan was specifically forestalling the Aes Sedai, and likely other nations too, and the Ogier tried, but did not get there in time.

 

One thing that annoys me about Shadar Logoth is the description of its source of power. Mordeth is a very patchy entity in comparison to everything else in Wheel of Time, there is no "realistic" explanation for its abilites. The Dark One is a God figure and so has great power, he can alter reality and grant powers and such like. But Mordeth aparantly came about by the corruption of the city of Aridhol... do you see what I mean? At some random point it became more than a man, by being...corrupt. It isn't as "Wheel of Time realistic" as everything else. So in other words, if anyone decides to become as dark as the Shadow and begin corrupting everything in one location, you get powers. Nice powers at that, yet there isnt anything else that even resembles another entity being created in such a manner. Why isnt there any other individuals who have evolved like this?

 

A soul related ability seems likely. Channelers souls reach out to touch the source, dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies to enter the dream, Wolves and Wolfbrother's souls extend out of their bodies to communicate....

 

Perhaps he had a specific unique ability--the ability to pull parts of peoples souls out to power his effort. Perhaps that is what Mashadar is--what remains of their souls acting as a force. That seems to be what Machin Shin is, so there is some precedent.

[Jethro]

Machin Sin was created by the Taint if I remember right.

[Luckers]

It began with the taint on the ways that came from the taint on saidin which made them, yet in itself seems to be made up of the souls its consumed.

[Telzen]

Well I remember reading a theory in the past that the dagger was a ter'angreal from the Age of Legends. Having the dagger for so long corrupted Mordeth and led to his spiritness. The taint from the dagger was also the original source that tainted the rest of the city. It was always one of my favorite theories, but I guess we won't ever find out in detail unless it goes into it in AMOL.

[Fjong]

Telzen how does that theory explain the fact that EVERYTHING from SL is dangerous?

[ROB_88]

i posted this in another topic but here it is once again.

 

how much do we really know about the individual Mordeth before SL fell?

in order to do all that he must have had some special power, i do not believe he destroyed SL just by normal everyday corruption and suspicion so there must be something special about him.

 

we know that Ishmael was out at the time of the trolloc wars, maybe it was him doing something to create the feeling off "the light can be bad too" to instil mistrust and hesitation among the forces of the light. remember that SL used almost the same tactics as the Shadow.

 

now i'm not saying that Ishmael and Mordeth are the same person. maybe Ishy just did something to a random character, twisted and gave him powers like he did to Fain.

maybe even because of that Mordeth alreday was like Fain, and saw him as some sort of kindred spirit, another one who has gone through the same thing and thereby mixed so well with him.

[Jethro]

Well I remember reading a theory in the past that the dagger was a ter'angreal from the Age of Legends. Having the dagger for so long corrupted Mordeth and led to his spiritness. The taint from the dagger was also the original source that tainted the rest of the city. It was always one of my favorite theories, but I guess we won't ever find out in detail unless it goes into it in AMOL.

 

Not only does that contradict everything Moiraine has told us-and theres not much reason to not believe her-it has an unhealthy likeness to Lord of the Rings. I know RJ began the series in a LotR-type area deliberately, but that theory sounds too much like Gollum and the One Ring. I cant see it being the case. Moiraines explanation of the Shadar Logoth made it sound like a new evil was born due to Mordeths actions, all the deciet and hatred and such; Im sure the Aes Sedai of old would have figured out if there was some ter'angreal that was responsible.

[Telzen]

This is the theory I was thinking of.

http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=762&Category=Fain

 

Otherwise what could Mordeth have meant when he said "Panting shook his head as if he could not decide. 'Take what you want. Except... Except..."?

 

And how can Mordeth still be alive after 2000 years? Maybe its prolonged exposer to the dagger? And how could Mashadar have come about just from how the people in the city acted? There has to be some kind of object of power behind all this.

[mb]

About Mordeth, Mashadar, and Machin Shin; this page I think is fairly reliable:

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.7_sl-fain/1.7.2_mshin-mashadar.html