What Have You Noticed on the Nth Read Through?

[Eleint]

It's in KoD.  I'm firing at low cylinders this morning but it's there.  Either Egwene thinks it'd be easier if Rand just swore to her or Elayne tells Rand he should swear to Egwene and ignore Elaida.  I'll look for it when I re-read.  I'm liable to re-read KoD soon for the Mat chapters.  I'll look for that too.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I honestly can't think of a time when anyone told him he should swear fealty to Egwene.  In fact, the girls wouldn't even tell him where Egwene was, at one point.  If you can find that reference though, I'd be interested in it.

 

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

I honestly can't think of a time when anyone told him he should swear fealty to Egwene.  In fact, the girls wouldn't even tell him where Egwene was, at one point.  If you can find that reference though, I'd be interested in it.

 

 

 

 

Nobody tells him, but Elayne thinks about it in WH, chapter 8 or 9 (before Rand shows up with Min in Caemlyn).  She remarks (to herself) that it would make things "easier" if Rand swore to Egwene, but that Rand would never swear to anybody. 

 

It happens after Norry informs Elayne about the attack in Cairhein and the rumor that Rand swore to Elaida.

[Nightstrike]

It will probably take a few hundred years for the ability to disappear.  The people already born with it will keep it through the end of their lives.  But the rate of people born with either the spark or the ability to learn will probably drop sharply after Tarmon Gai'don.

Why wouldn't it disappear for everybody at the same time? Why would channeling disappear the end of this Age, and not at some other time?

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why wouldn't it disappear for everybody at the same time?

 

Because Jordan has established a pattern of relatively slow introduction of new abilities and cessation of old abilities.  The ability would stop being born into people.  But people who already have it probably wouldn't lose it.

 

I freely admit that I'm speculating here though, so if you're spoiling for another fight, Nightstrike, you're likely to be disappointed.

 

Why would channeling disappear the end of this Age, and not at some other time?

 

Because it is already disappearing.  Jordan said that it has fallen from 2-3% of the population during the AoL to approximately one percent now.  The decreasing trend, combined with the knowledge that the end of an Age is coming and new abilities are being introduced, is indicative.

 

Not proof, and I'm not claiming it is proof.  But it is indicative.

[Nightstrike]

Because Jordan has established a pattern of relatively slow introduction of new abilities and cessation of old abilities.  The ability would stop being born into people.  But people who already have it probably wouldn't lose it.

 

I freely admit that I'm speculating here though, so if you're spoiling for another fight, Nightstrike, you're likely to be disappointed.

No, I don't want a fight. I thought you were more than just speculating. Seems like I was mistaken.

 

 

Why would channeling disappear the end of this Age, and not at some other time?

 

Because it is already disappearing.  Jordan said that it has fallen from 2-3% of the population during the AoL to approximately one percent now.  The decreasing trend, combined with the knowledge that the end of an Age is coming and new abilities are being introduced, is indicative.

 

Not proof, and I'm not claiming it is proof.  But it is indicative.

Yeah, but he also explained why channeling population has fallen from 3 percent to 1 percent. It was due to channelers not staying in the breeding pool (males being gentled, among other things).

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, but he also explained why channeling population has fallen from 3 percent to 1 percent. It was due to channelers not staying in the breeding pool (males being gentled, among other things).

 

No, that was the speculation of some Aes Sedai within the books.  Or at least, I haven't seen an RJ quote to that effect ... I would be interested to see it if you can find it.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I think Verin said something about it. Maybe someone else, too. But we have quotes from RJ saying that channeling is part genetic and part soul. And then there are the following quotes, that show that genetics (culling) can cause a decline in percentage of the population that can channel.

 

From Robert Jordan's blog:

For kcf, Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will.  The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say.  There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune.  This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on “this” side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul’dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean.  And also a higher percentage of many Talents.

 

 

Robert Jordan's blog, October 2:nd 2005:

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also.  In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.  For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool.  They have been very efficient at this.  As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

But we have quotes from RJ saying that channeling is part genetic and part soul.

 

Nothing I proposed denies that.  The Wheel would just start spinning out non-channeling souls for a new Age.  Which is why those who can already channel would keep the ability until they died.

[Nightstrike]

I don't know when or how channeling will end. Whether it will be gradual, or abrubt. Or whether the already born channelers will keep their ability, whenever that ability gets lost.

 

I hope it doesn't happen anytime soon, though.

[Muad Cheade]

One thing I noticed re-reading Crossroads of Twilight was the scene where Perrin and others are heading to So Harbor to get grain and he notices that Neald is always smiling and grinning to himself. Perrin thinks he might be going mad, but I just realized that Neald is "overjoyed" that the taint is gone.

[Sylvia]

One thing I noticed re-reading Crossroads of Twilight was the scene where Perrin and others are heading to So Harbor to get grain and he notices that Neald is always smiling and grinning to himself. Perrin thinks he might be going mad, but I just realized that Neald is "overjoyed" that the taint is gone.

 

I thought that was obvious.....

[CUBAREY]

It will probably take a few hundred years for the ability to disappear.  The people already born with it will keep it through the end of their lives.  But the rate of people born with either the spark or the ability to learn will probably drop sharply after Tarmon Gai'don.

Why wouldn't it disappear for everybody at the same time? Why would channeling disappear the end of this Age, and not at some other time?

 

 

 

The only way that it would disapear all at once would be if in his last counterstroke before being resealed into his prison the DO would somehow severe the connection between the power and not only all present channelers but all future channelers. And I'm not realy sure that he could do the latter.

[Nightstrike]

The only way that it would disapear all at once would be if in his last counterstroke before being resealed into his prison the DO would somehow severe the connection between the power and not only all present channelers but all future channelers. And I'm not realy sure that he could do the latter.

Why would that be the only way? We don't even know if the DO will have anything to do with the loss of channeling ability.

 

[ROB_88]

The only way that it would disapear all at once would be if in his last counterstroke before being resealed into his prison the DO would somehow severe the connection between the power and not only all present channelers but all future channelers. And I'm not realy sure that he could do the latter.

Why would that be the only way? We don't even know if the DO will have anything to do with the loss of channeling ability.

 

 

that does seem like the only way. i fail to see any natural way for a universal shielding/severing to form up

[Nightstrike]

that does seem like the only way. i fail to see any natural way for a universal shielding/severing to form up

Yeah, and I fail to see any way that other abilities appears and disappears. Viewings, Wolfsiblings, maybe other things. That doesn't change the fact that they do appear and disappear. Something happens while the Wheel turns. I don't know what it is, though.

[Kelitor]

Ok, here's what I noticed on the thousandth read through of the Wheel of Time.

 

In Winter's Heart, when Elayne is in Caemlyn with Nynaeve, they're meeting Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Egwene says to Nynaeve that there's a grandmother Novice named Sharina Melloy.

 

As everyone will remember, this Sharina is also the old Novice who gives the Mistress of Novices, Tiana, all the ideas on how to organize the 1000+ novices the rebels have picked up.

 

Nynaeve, on hearing that Sharina Melloy is a Novice, goes pale and gasps, saying she heard the name in her Accepted testing. I was curious since I'd never really noticed this, so I went back to the Great Hunt and looked up Nynaeve's Accepted testing.

 

When Nynaeve went through the 3rd arch, and saw herself as the Queen of Malkier with Lan in a purified Malkier with children etc. etc. And she begins to cry knowing she'll have to leave Lan to go through the arch and all that, Lan says when Nynaeve apparently forgets she has children:

 

"Are you certain you're well? I think I had better take you to Sharina Sedai."

 

and then,

 

Elnore has already begun practicing how to turn boys' heads, when she is not pestering Sharina about when she'll be old enough to go to the White Tower."

 

Apparently, in a mirror world (or wherever Accepted testing happens) Sharina Melloy is the Aes Sedai advisor to King Lan and Queen Nynaeve of Malkier.

 

In the main time-line, Sharina Melloy is a grandmother Novice with the rebels, but now I can't wonder if in the end she'll become Aes Sedai and go to advise Lan and Nynaeve.

 

 

I found this fascinating. Oh, and I also wonder how peaches became poisonous. Something that happened in the breaking?

[flipfinger]

Found an few interesting little bits in Knife of Dreams, one of which where Elayne discovers that Aviendha can tell what a ter'angreal does;  she picks up one shaped like a hand and says that it grows 'holes' of some kind, and that it needs a song to make it work... perhaps the ter'angreal used to make the Ways?  Also when Alviarin sees Mesaana in the flesh her skirt is described as bronze, with her being a blonde woman... in chapter 22 Jordan describes an Aes Sedai called Amylia serving the sea folk (Zaida as blonde, with wide blue eyes in bronze skirts.  He mentions her specific appearance several times, and also that she seems shaken up, as if she'd recently been through a severe punishment... 

 

Points to ponder ! :)

[Luckers]

I found this fascinating. Oh, and I also wonder how peaches became poisonous. Something that happened in the breaking?

 

Presumably--the fact that the phrase 'as sure as peaches are poison' exists suggests a cultural history dating back to before history was recorded--essentially the breaking. It is possible that this came about during the Trolloc Wars or War of a Hundred Years, but one would think it would have been commented on.

 

We do know however that Peaches were not poison in the Age of Legends.

 

Found an few interesting little bits in Knife of Dreams, one of which where Elayne discovers that Aviendha can tell what a ter'angreal does;  she picks up one shaped like a hand and says that it grows 'holes' of some kind, and that it needs a song to make it work... perhaps the ter'angreal used to make the Ways?  Also when Alviarin sees Mesaana in the flesh her skirt is described as bronze, with her being a blonde woman... in chapter 22 Jordan describes an Aes Sedai called Amylia serving the sea folk (Zaida as blonde, with wide blue eyes in bronze skirts.  He mentions her specific appearance several times, and also that she seems shaken up, as if she'd recently been through a severe punishment... 

 

I doubt that Amylia is Mesaana--she's been hung up and strapped three times.

 

That same description fits Danelle, and she has alot of other stuff going for her.

[Kelitor]

Personally I don't think Mesaana is masquerading as Aes Sedai, because none of them are as strong as her, except Nynaeve, and the weave that hides her strength is all or nothing

[Luckers]

Thats actually incorrect. There is a weave that can hide partial strength, though according to RJ knowledge of it was rare in the Age of Legends.

[Kelitor]

Thats actually incorrect. There is a weave that can hide partial strength, though according to RJ knowledge of it was rare in the Age of Legends.

 

 

oops. there goes my theory.  :'(

 

 

 

Anyways, I have a number of more things I've noticed.

 

First, from the Cleansing of Saidin, with Cadsuane:

 

Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struck instead the inverted shield she had woven, erupting in a deafening roar fifty feet above her her head.

 

Does anyone remember Cadsuane learning to invert weaves? I certainly don't. I doubt she's a darkfriend, but it seems like she has a rather tidy store of things she keeps to herself, and inverting weaves is pretty significant.

 

Earlier, in Far Madding, when Verin is introduced to the Counsels:

 

"All of you may call me Eadwina." Verin said. Shalon barely supressed a start. Kumira did not so much as blink. "Do you consider history, First Counsel?" Verin continued without looking up. "Guaire Amalasan's siege of Far Madding lasted just three weeks. A savage business, at the end."

 

"I doubt they want to hear about him," Cadsuane said sharply.

 

We know that Verin is from Far Madding, but do we know any reason for her to conceal her identity? Even if Far Madding dislikes sisters from the city returning, Cadsuane Melaidhrin felt comfortable revealing herself, why not Verin Mathwin?

 

And why is Verin antagonizing the Counsels and going against Cadsuane's fairly obvious desires in doing so... I think its been fairly obvious all along that Verin is rather significant, since she worked out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn back in The Great Hunt.

 

 

And lastly, from Crossroads of Twilight, Yukiri is walking through the Tower listening to Meidani, one of the rebel spies when she comes across three Browns:

 

But no sooner had the other woman opened her mouth than three Browns rounded a corner from another hallway right in front of them, flaunting their shawls like Greens... Mild and absorbed in their studies was how she would have described them, if pressed. Elin Warrel was so newly raised to the shawl, she still should have been bobbing curtsies on instinct.

 

This is more amusing then anything. Elin Warrel was a Novice in A New Spring. She was several years older then Moiraine and Siuan, had already been a Novice quite a while (10 years or something, I forget). It looks like she FINALLY gained the shawl, 20 years later. And we know it was very recent, within a year or so, not 10 because in A Crown of Swords, Elayne and Nynaeve are talking about the slowing.

 

(Elayne speaking)

"Forget clothes for one moment, Nynaeve. Who is the oldest Accepted you can remember?"

 

She gave Elayne a very level look. The woman made it sounds as if she never thought of anything else! And she had too listened. Sometimes. "Elin Warrel, I think. She's about my age, I think." Of course the seamstress' own dress... (blah blah blah, pretty dresses, Lan likes blue. Skip)

 

Elayne barked such a laugh that Nynaeve wondered whether she had spoken aloud. Coloring fiercly, she tried to explain-- she was sure she could; by Bel Tine-- but the other woman gave her no opportunity for a word. "Elin's sister came to visit her just before you first arrived at the Tower, Nynaeve. Her younger sister. The woman had gray hair. Well, some of it was. She must have been over forty, Nynaeve."

 

I just wanted to emphasize how old the Tower will keep ya. I never put Elin the old Accepted, Elin the newly raised Aes Sedai, and Elin the Novice that Moiraine talks to in New Spring all together before.  ;D

[dholm]

First, from the Cleansing of Saidin, with Cadsuane:

 

Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struck instead the inverted shield she had woven, erupting in a deafening roar fifty feet above her her head.

 

Does anyone remember Cadsuane learning to invert weaves? I certainly don't. I doubt she's a darkfriend, but it seems like she has a rather tidy store of things she keeps to herself, and inverting weaves is pretty significant.

We've had PoVs from her, so we know she is not a Darkfriend.

 

Earlier, in Far Madding, when Verin is introduced to the Counsels:

 

"All of you may call me Eadwina." Verin said. Shalon barely supressed a start. Kumira did not so much as blink. "Do you consider history, First Counsel?" Verin continued without looking up. "Guaire Amalasan's siege of Far Madding lasted just three weeks. A savage business, at the end."

 

"I doubt they want to hear about him," Cadsuane said sharply.

 

We know that Verin is from Far Madding, but do we know any reason for her to conceal her identity? Even if Far Madding dislikes sisters from the city returning, Cadsuane Melaidhrin felt comfortable revealing herself, why not Verin Mathwin?

 

And why is Verin antagonizing the Counsels and going against Cadsuane's fairly obvious desires in doing so... I think its been fairly obvious all along that Verin is rather significant, since she worked out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn back in The Great Hunt.

Verin hides her identity because she was exiled from Far Madding. This is mentioned in Winter's Heart, Chapter 25.

 

She's also not going against Cadsuane here; she's attempting to scare the Council with tales of the Dragon Reborn. Cadsuane disagrees to make it seem as if she is not doing so.

 

And lastly, from Crossroads of Twilight, Yukiri is walking through the Tower listening to Meidani, one of the rebel spies when she comes across three Browns:

 

But no sooner had the other woman opened her mouth than three Browns rounded a corner from another hallway right in front of them, flaunting their shawls like Greens... Mild and absorbed in their studies was how she would have described them, if pressed. Elin Warrel was so newly raised to the shawl, she still should have been bobbing curtsies on instinct.

 

This is more amusing then anything. Elin Warrel was a Novice in A New Spring. She was several years older then Moiraine and Siuan, had already been a Novice quite a while (10 years or something, I forget). It looks like she FINALLY gained the shawl, 20 years later. And we know it was very recent, within a year or so, not 10 because in A Crown of Swords, Elayne and Nynaeve are talking about the slowing.

 

(Elayne speaking)

"Forget clothes for one moment, Nynaeve. Who is the oldest Accepted you can remember?"

 

She gave Elayne a very level look. The woman made it sounds as if she never thought of anything else! And she had too listened. Sometimes. "Elin Warrel, I think. She's about my age, I think." Of course the seamstress' own dress... (blah blah blah, pretty dresses, Lan likes blue. Skip)

 

Elayne barked such a laugh that Nynaeve wondered whether she had spoken aloud. Coloring fiercly, she tried to explain-- she was sure she could; by Bel Tine-- but the other woman gave her no opportunity for a word. "Elin's sister came to visit her just before you first arrived at the Tower, Nynaeve. Her younger sister. The woman had gray hair. Well, some of it was. She must have been over forty, Nynaeve."

 

I just wanted to emphasize how old the Tower will keep ya. I never put Elin the old Accepted, Elin the newly raised Aes Sedai, and Elin the Novice that Moiraine talks to in New Spring all together before.  ;D

Heh. I never noticed that before. It's obvious now that you mention it, of course.

[tnsabregirl]

 

This is more amusing then anything. Elin Warrel was a Novice in A New Spring. She was several years older then Moiraine and Siuan, had already been a Novice quite a while (10 years or something, I forget). It looks like she FINALLY gained the shawl, 20 years later. And we know it was very recent, within a year or so, not 10 because in A Crown of Swords, Elayne and Nynaeve are talking about the slowing.

 

I just wanted to emphasize how old the Tower will keep ya. I never put Elin the old Accepted, Elin the newly raised Aes Sedai, and Elin the Novice that Moiraine talks to in New Spring all together before.  ;D

 

That was a good catch, Kelitor! :-) Never noticed that one.

[Luckers]

Does anyone remember Cadsuane learning to invert weaves? I certainly don't. I doubt she's a darkfriend, but it seems like she has a rather tidy store of things she keeps to herself, and inverting weaves is pretty significant.

 

Cadsuane and Nynaeve went on a training trip together in Far Madding--Cadsuane trained Nynaeve in the use of her ter'angreal and presumably Nynaeve returned the favour.

 

Quote from: Kelitor on July 10, 2009, 11:04:16 AM

Earlier, in Far Madding, when Verin is introduced to the Counsels:

 

 

Quote

"All of you may call me Eadwina." Verin said. Shalon barely supressed a start. Kumira did not so much as blink. "Do you consider history, First Counsel?" Verin continued without looking up. "Guaire Amalasan's siege of Far Madding lasted just three weeks. A savage business, at the end."

 

"I doubt they want to hear about him," Cadsuane said sharply.

 

We know that Verin is from Far Madding, but do we know any reason for her to conceal her identity? Even if Far Madding dislikes sisters from the city returning, Cadsuane Melaidhrin felt comfortable revealing herself, why not Verin Mathwin?

 

And why is Verin antagonizing the Counsels and going against Cadsuane's fairly obvious desires in doing so... I think its been fairly obvious all along that Verin is rather significant, since she worked out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn back in The Great Hunt.

 

To the first question--Verin was exiled from Far Madding for unstated reasons. "[Verin]

suspected the warrants for Verin Mathwin's exile had never been suspended." WH--25--Bonds.

 

To the second question she was trying to scare the Counsels in preperation for the event that Rand fell afoul of the law. Cadsuane knew she was doing so--Jahar Narishma was the one who stayed behind and channelers, which lead to Verin's comments when Far Madding's Sentinals reacted to it. It essentially allowed Verin to rase the point that whilst Far Madding didn't have to fear channelers, they should fear Rand's followers and my guess is that it was done at Cadsuance command--though you never know, Verin is very wily, and may have suggested it herself--either way Cadsuane knew of it. ""So you will try to conceal that you hold the Dragon Reborn," Cadsuane said quietly. She

had hoped—hoped fervently!—that Verin's spadework would make them back away from this." WH--34--The Humingbird's Secret.

 

 

 

 

You know what I noticed during researching that answer? That it was Verin who figured out where Rand was in Winter's Heart. Alanna states...

 

"Rand, she wanted to know where you were every day," Alanna said dismissively, "but I doubt there's a shepherd in Seleisin who doesn't wonder where you are. The whole world wants to know that. I knew you were far to the south, that you hadn't moved for days. No more. When I found out she and Verin were coming here, I had to beg her—beg on my knees!—before she would let me come along. But I didn't know myself that you were here until I came out of the gateway in the hills above the city. Before that, I thought I might have to Travel halfway to Tear to find you. Cadsuane taught me that, when we came here, so don't think you can evade me so easily in the future."

 

And then Verin says...

 

Taking her time, Verin tipped the teapot to pour into a thin blue porcelain cup. Not Sea Folk porcelain, but very fine. "Do you have any idea why he came to Far Madding, of all places? I nearly swallowed my tongue when it came to me that the reason he had stopped leaping about might be because he was here. If it's something dangerous, perhaps we should try to stop him."

 

I always assumed Cadsuane guessed--but it was clearly Verin.

 

The question remains of why she guessed Far Madding--my guess is that with Alanna's knowledge she realised that the false directions were a trap and guessed Far Madding to be the cage--though the other idea i have is that she knows Ishamael's trick of finding ta'veren.