Sangreal Multidraw.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I would assume it was some spirit based weave akin to Severing or a sort of Anti-Bonding to remove the link between Mat and the dagger.

 

As far as Nynaeve's statement, it was true - she really couldn't draw half that much power. If I saw someone lift a bus and I exclaim that I couldn't lift half of that weight it doesn't mean that I think I could in fact lift anywhere near half of that weight. It's just y'know an expression.

 

Well what if was someone lifting a bus that you knew to have some sort of super strength that just found out you had too? Sure right then you couldn't lift the bus but by the time your "muscles" were fully developed your previous strength probably wouldn't ever cross your mind, it's easier to judge someones strength than it is their weakness there isn't any such thing as "Feats of weakness"....As far as I know and of course by that time Nyneave had probably channeled so little of her potential that she didn't really have any idea of what she was comparing it to, I don't remember any of the girls mentioning the way they can judge a womans strength until TSR. So at the time before she'd had a chance to gain any real strength in the power she probably knew what she was talking about. But compared to how much Saidar she can draw unaided now..Well who knows really, we don't have any specific comparison of Nynaeves strength when they first got to the tower and what it is at the end of KoD. At least I don't think we do.

[Luckers]

I would assume it was some spirit based weave akin to Severing or a sort of Anti-Bonding to remove the link between Mat and the dagger.

 

Sounds about right.

 

As far as Nynaeve's statement, it was true

 

Yeah, no, i agree--i was speaking more to the implication that she could channel near to half that amount--which is indeed implied into the words. We know for a fact that she couldn't--or come anywhere near.

 

But yes, she did not directly lie.

 

I really don't think there would be a problem with drawing from multiple sa'angreal. I think that sa'angreal are really no different from angreal. They're simply the heavyweight version.  Probably took a lot longer to manufacture, but otherwise no different.

 

Even if that is true, though, they wouldn't work in concert. We know by description of the angreal incident that the angreal provided a seperate flow of the power to the Choedan Kal.

 

In effect i think it would be more effective for the choedan Kal and Callandor to be used in a circle than by one individual alone.

 

I know this can't be taken as cannon since we made it up for convenience, but this is how linking strength is calculated on the RP boards.  I think it works reasonably well.  This is based on a strength score system ranging from 1(Morgase)-50(Rand).  Decimals are rounded to the nearest whole number.

 

We actually have the basis for a more accurate strength system--in terms of male/female strength relation anyway. We know that RJ created a rough 21 level chart for female strength, and that the top male strength is a level or two above the top female strength (i.e. level 22 or 23). As such, if we put the female strength system on a scale of 1 to 100, with Morgase at 1 and Lanfear at 100, then Rand would sit at either 104 or 108 (depending on whether the top male strength is one level stronger, or two.) For convenience we should probably the halve the difference and say 106.

 

The reason this is more reliable is it provides us with the cut off strength of Aes Sedai--RJ stated seperately that 63.8% of women who can channel have the strength to reach the shawl, which places the Aes Sedai cut off strength at 36.2.

 

(Average Strength of the members of the circle) x (modifier)

 

The modifiers are set on a base 1.5 with 0.1 added for each channeler that is added to the circle. A circle of 2 channelers would have a modifier of 1.5, a circle of 3 channelers would have a modifier of 1.6, and so on.

 

For example, if Egwene (Strength 29), Logain (Strength 34) and Elayne (Strength 29) link, here is how to work out the overall strength of the circle:

 

Average Strength (92 / 3 = 31)

 

Multiply the result by the modifier for 3 channelers (31 x 1.6 = 50).

 

This doesn't work--it implies that stronger channelers contribute less than weaker ones, which we know directly to be untrue. For a simple reason too--imagine if Lanfear linked with Morgase. 101/2 equals 50.5 x 1.5 = 75.5

 

So, Lanfear's contributing 75% of her power, whilst Morgase is giving a full hundred percent. Or, they are giving equal and the amount Lanfear contributes is being dramatically lessened by her partner.

 

Which seems to fly directly in the face of what we know. Nynaeve directly states that it acts like a buffer on an angreal, limiting your strength slightly from the full amount, not 25% from the full amount.

 

No, i think in a link each participant contributes a rough percentage of her own strength, not one relative to the numbers of strengths of the people involved.

 

Egwene (Strength 29), Logain (Strength 34) and Elayne (Strength 29)

 

Incidently, Logain is only slightly weaker than Rand. Probably around, or slightly beneath Lanfears strength of 100. And Egwene and Elayne being only one degree higher than the Aes Sedai average is redicuolous. Also--Egwene was forced, but Elayne wasn't. As things stand Egwene is stronger than Elayne.

 

my basis for this is the fact that rand said while he drew through it, I dont have an exact quote, so forgive me, but it went like, A hundred men could not draw this much. Even if it is an exageration i doubt it is 10x.

 

You mean during the time when he was exposed to a sa'angreal that induces wildness of the mind? Was this whilst he was attempting to bring the dead back to life, or whilst he was killing his own men? I'd like to see the quote anyway--i definately don't see it being more than 10x.

 

 

[Ndshacker]

If I come across it during my reread ill tell you.

[Blightmaster]

you're looking for numbers and facts that just arent there. just cause someone said this is 10 times mroe powerful than that doesnt mean it is, they just had an immmense fealing of power

 

this is most likely stuff we can only best guess at seeming none of its actualy real just a figment of a man imagination and we cant base what we think we know of reality to the rules of the saidar saidan world, considering those dont even come into play in our world of what we think has to be facts, where the power doesnt exist

 

 

[Ava]

its possible to use two sa'angreal or angreal at once.

Rand did tht in Rhudien while struggling wid Asmodean for the choden kal. also the choden kal wasn't tested so its buffer that protects chanelers from overdrawin may not work.. tht may be why rand had probs controllin the flows

 

[Pixiedragon]

Also--Egwene was forced, but Elayne wasn't. As things stand Egwene is stronger than Elayne.

As a matter of fact, she was.

Though I'm guessing the 'forcing' started later with her than with Egwene and Nynaeve, because she had been in the Tower for a few months.

A few months, not years.

 

Source:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-nynaeve.htm

Egwene, and El and Ny have also experienced forced training.

[Luckers]

Also--Egwene was forced, but Elayne wasn't. As things stand Egwene is stronger than Elayne.

As a matter of fact, she was.

Though I'm guessing the 'forcing' started later with her than with Egwene and Nynaeve, because she had been in the Tower for a few months.

A few months, not years.

 

Source:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-nynaeve.htm

Egwene, and El and Ny have also experienced forced training.

 

Thus spake the creator is an unsourced--and frequently inaccurate website.

 

There is no evidence to sustain that Elayne or Nynaeve were forced. Indeed we know that Egwene is stronger than Elayne currently despite their potential matching, and given Suian directly confessed to Egwene yet mentioned neither of the others we can doubt it.

[Pixiedragon]

Ah, that is something I didn't know about that website.

But as I thought she had been forced anyway I didn't look further than my nose. ;)

[ChronoCrosS]

I'm fairly certain he could use the Choedan Kal without the difficulties that were present at the Cleansing. At the Cleansing, not only did he have to channel every single drop of Saidin that it was possible to do with the powerful Sa'Angreal, but he had to deal with the taint too and force the whole heaving mass that was the surface of Saidin down his Saidar funnel and into Shadar Logoth.

 

This took hours.

 

I'm reasonably strong, I can lift quite a bit of weight. That doesn't mean that I'd care to hold something heavy above my head for hours on end, or that I'd even be able to do so. What Rand did at the cleansing was the equivelent of an iroman marathon event, compared to that any normal weaving, even with that amount of power, is nothing much. 

 

I agree with you here. But I think that Rand could draw from two sa'angreal, but not for long. It seems that channelers get worn out after drawing on the power for extended periods of time. I think that the degree that you get tired at depends on how much of the power you draw into yourself. So Rand could draw this power, it would just be a great risk since he would get worn out fast and risk losing control. After he loses control is when he burns himself out.

[balefireruinssteaks]

there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that it is NOT possible to access the One Power through more than one angreal/sa'angreal.  The practicality of it seems to be the issue though. 

 

When Alivia comes to get Nyneave's ter'angreal/angreal she says "You won't really need them anyway, not if you're going to be using that [Choedan Kal]".  While she didn't say "you can't use those two at the same time" the practicality of using another angreal on top of the most powerful one seemed silly to Alivia, and rightfully so.  If it were a matter of power then Nynaeve would have gathered all the angreal she could in order to add as much as she could.  It just seemed silly to use anything else on top of it.

 

It also seems possible that two people can access the One Power through the same angreal/sa'angreal as with Asmodean and Rand fighting in Rhuidien.  Again, though, the practicality of that seems ridiculous.  Why would you both want to use the same angreal at the same time?

[Babalu]

Also--Egwene was forced, but Elayne wasn't. As things stand Egwene is stronger than Elayne.

As a matter of fact, she was.

Though I'm guessing the 'forcing' started later with her than with Egwene and Nynaeve, because she had been in the Tower for a few months.

A few months, not years.

 

Source:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-nynaeve.htm

Egwene, and El and Ny have also experienced forced training.

 

Thus spake the creator is an unsourced--and frequently inaccurate website.

 

There is no evidence to sustain that Elayne or Nynaeve were forced. Indeed we know that Egwene is stronger than Elayne currently despite their potential matching, and given Suian directly confessed to Egwene yet mentioned neither of the others we can doubt it.

 

I never really understood Siuan apologising about Egwene being forced. I may be recalling this wrongly, but wasn't Egwene forced because of spending time as a Damane? I can't see how that's Siuan's fault at all.

[D24g0n]

In a way it is Siuan's fault, she sent the trio on the hunt for the black ajah.  This led to her being captured and forced as a damane.

[ROB_88]

In a way it is Siuan's fault, she sent the trio on the hunt for the black ajah.  This led to her being captured and forced as a damane.

 

Siuan sent them on the hunt for the Black Ajah in Tear after they had come back from Falme, not before. it was Liandrin that sent them to Falme, it was Liandrins fault that she bacame damane, noone elses

[Thor]

there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that it is NOT possible to access the One Power through more than one angreal/sa'angreal.  The practicality of it seems to be the issue though. 

 

When Alivia comes to get Nyneave's ter'angreal/angreal she says "You won't really need them anyway, not if you're going to be using that [Choedan Kal]".  While she didn't say "you can't use those two at the same time" the practicality of using another angreal on top of the most powerful one seemed silly to Alivia, and rightfully so.  If it were a matter of power then Nynaeve would have gathered all the angreal she could in order to add as much as she could.  It just seemed silly to use anything else on top of it.

 

It also seems possible that two people can access the One Power through the same angreal/sa'angreal as with Asmodean and Rand fighting in Rhuidien.  Again, though, the practicality of that seems ridiculous.  Why would you both want to use the same angreal at the same time?

 

It is a fact that a channeler can draw through more than 1 (sa)angreal, if not, then Rand could not have defeated Asmodean.  Strength of the (sa)angreals might matter, but then it is always possible that the sa angreal coudl be very weak, allowing multidraw.  Now I suppose you are going to say that the access key is technically not a sa angreal, well take your pick then.

[D24g0n]

Siuan sent them on the hunt for the Black Ajah in Tear after they had come back from Falme, not before. it was Liandrin that sent them to Falme, it was Liandrins fault that she bacame damane, noone elses

 

Yes, but it all originated from Siuan's order to hunt the Black Ajah.  Without the order, the trio would have been in the tower, and would never have gone to Falme because of Liandrin.  So while it wasn't directly her fault, it still kinda was.

[Babalu]

Siuan sent them on the hunt for the Black Ajah in Tear after they had come back from Falme, not before. it was Liandrin that sent them to Falme, it was Liandrins fault that she bacame damane, noone elses

 

Yes, but it all originated from Siuan's order to hunt the Black Ajah.  Without the order, the trio would have been in the tower, and would never have gone to Falme because of Liandrin.  So while it wasn't directly her fault, it still kinda was.

 

Rob is definately right on this. Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne walking into the most obvious trap in history had nothing to do with Siuan.

[D24g0n]

You are right, I had my sequence of events mixed up.

 

Maybe Siuan felt it was part of her responsibility as the Amrylin to keep them safe since they were untrained novices.  So she apologized because she felt that she failed in that responsibility.

[Luckers]

I never really understood Siuan apologising about Egwene being forced. I may be recalling this wrongly, but wasn't Egwene forced because of spending time as a Damane? I can't see how that's Siuan's fault at all.

 

I doubt her comment has anything to do with the Seanchan. It seems to specific for that. Seemingly some other incident in Egwene's training must have specifically been influence by Siuan to cause her to be forced.

 

And we know that Elayne and Nynaeve were not put under the same stressors.

[ROB_88]

maybe it has to do with the constant testibg to see if she is a dreamer?

[Hybrid]

Siuan sent them on the hunt for the Black Ajah in Tear after they had come back from Falme, not before. it was Liandrin that sent them to Falme, it was Liandrins fault that she bacame damane, noone elses

 

Yes, but it all originated from Siuan's order to hunt the Black Ajah.  Without the order, the trio would have been in the tower, and would never have gone to Falme because of Liandrin.  So while it wasn't directly her fault, it still kinda was.

 

Rob is definately right on this. Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne walking into the most obvious trap in history had nothing to do with Siuan.

The Wondergirls certainly have a talent for walking into traps...

[Babalu]

I never really understood Siuan apologising about Egwene being forced. I may be recalling this wrongly, but wasn't Egwene forced because of spending time as a Damane? I can't see how that's Siuan's fault at all.

 

I doubt her comment has anything to do with the Seanchan. It seems to specific for that. Seemingly some other incident in Egwene's training must have specifically been influence by Siuan to cause her to be forced.

 

And we know that Elayne and Nynaeve were not put under the same stressors.

 

Egwene didn't spend much time in the tower, and we've seen nothing to suggest that her training while she was there was any different from anyone elses. Unless Rob is correct about her being tested to see if she was a dreamer, but Siuan had very little, if anything, to do with those tests and I can't imagine Anaiya ever agreeing to force someone. The only time Siuan could possibly have done soemthing different with Egwene was when they were on the way to Tar Valon from Shienar.

 

It just seems a bit odd, and possibly was included to show how dangerous the training at the Black Tower was.

 

I don't actually know why I'm even thinking about this. I can't stand Egwene and try to think about her as little as possible.

[Luckers]

Actually there is a period of nearly four months during which we see next to nothing of any of the girls training during tGH.

 

The fact is though that Siuan directly apologises for having Egwene forced--and we know Elayne and Nynaeve did not recieve the same forcing. It must have happened somewhere during that four months.

[Babalu]

I always confuse myself about how much time passes in tGH.

 

I'm not disputing that Egwene was forced (being how it's stated outright in the books that she was, I'd seriously worry about myself if I were), it just seems odd to me that Siuna was doing this off screen forcing that was never mentioned until over half way through the series.

 

It's a very small detail, and it really doesn't matter. Sometimes I just can't stop myself from nitpicking.

[Pixiedragon]

Can anyone tell me what "forcing" actually means?

Because I can't remember reading a good description of it anywhere, though it does seem to be quite important.

[Arath Faringal]

Forcing is the form of training that the Asha'man and the Seanchan use.  It basically involves constantly pushing a student to the limit of thier abilities in order to 'force' their growth.  It is a much faster way to get a student to realize his/her full potential, but the risk of over channeling and burning yourself out is much greater.  Which is partialy why the Aes Sedai don't do it.