Equal yet not

[Jethro]

Guys, I think you are arguing about a very irrelevant point. I may be wrong of course, I am merely human so dont shoot me.

 

Did it ever occur to any of you that the skills the Watcher said Sammael scorned wasnt woodman skills? Look at the context of that paragraph, where the Watcher stands still, and THEN notes he has attained skills Sammael scorned.

 

It doesnt take a skilled woodsman to stand still. The Watcher wasnt referring to being a woodsman. I reckon he meant making fancloth. Sammael favors open warfare over stealth, and so the making of fancloth itself is something Sammael wouldn't be fond of.

[Majsju]

Fancloth is made by a ter'angreal, so I doubt it would take a lot of skill to out in the clothes and get it started.

[Jethro]

And how are those ter'angreal made? The Watcher, as Ishamael, could easily have retained the knowledge of creating a ter'angreal for fancloth production. As the Nae'blis ala Miks description, the same applies.

 

Its the context that made me think of it. Sammael and Graendal turn round, the Watcher froze in his silent steps, and then of all times the Watcher notes how good a woodsman he is, while wearing fancloth? I think not. Hes wearing fancloth for crying out loud! How can someone credit himself for not being seen when hes wearing fancloth? He can credit himself on his common sense, but not on his stealth ckills.

 

Thats what the Watcher was referring to if you ask me. The making of fancloth.

[Majsju]

Looking at Elayne, making ter'angreal seems way more like a Talent, rather than a skill anyone interested can learn.

 

And considering that Ishamael was the one who set up the Black Ajah to begin with, and have continued to interact with them, would it not be far, far easier for him to simply order random BA to fix a set of clothes for him, rather than to pull out a talent noone so far have heard of him having?

 

It might also be useful to look at how fancloth is described when warders wear their cloaks. Yes, it is hard to spot them, but they are not invisible, not unless they stand perfectly still. And even if they had been invisible, fancloth would not stop any sounds they might make.

[Jethro]

So standing still while wearing fancloth is the skill the Watcher has that Sammael scorns then?

[Thor]

yes why not.

 

sammual seems like the kind of guy who goes, i r super fit and strong and fast and imba, me no need protection, rawr.

 

So not a surprise that he shuns camouflage.

[Jethro]

I know he shuns camouflage, yet camouflage isnt a skill when youre wearing fancloth. Thats why I think the Watcher was on about making it being the skill Sammael scorns. Standing still while wearing a suit that makes you almost invisable is NOT a skill. Not by anyones standards

[Thor]

So army men wearing their clothes hiding in bushes, ninjas wearing black clothes hiding in the night doesn't count as skill either then?

[Jethro]

Wearing black at night isnt a skill, it is common sense. Do not try and tell me there is anyone who is unable to put fancloth on and stand still without being caught.

 

An army man wearing camouflage gear is well equipped but still needs skill. The Watcher wearing fancloth needs only to stop moving. There is a massive difference Thor and you know it.

[Mik]

For all his life before the Bore was drilled, he's been living in a care-free society with huge cities where the sky wasn't even the limit, with the One Power to do his dirty work. He scorns anything 'less'.

Care to provide a quote how him scorning "anything less" means he never spent any time outdoors?

I can’t, because it doesn’t exist. That’s not a point in your favour though, but in mine. As I already explained at least two times before in this thread, if nothing is there to even hint at Elan Morin/ Ishamael / Moridin having abilities coming close to anything related to having elite outdoor skills, it’s only common sense to believe he doesn't have skills not even hinted at anywhere in the books. There is no indication whatsoever for your assumption.

 

It’s like suggestions I used as a previous example;

Sammael could have three legs. I can’t show you a quote that specifically states he doesn’t have a third leg, but that’s irrelevant. Because nothing in the books even hints at Sammy having more then two!

You’re trying to say that if I can’t provide a quote specifically denying Sammy has three legs, that it is a point in favour of Sammy actually having three legs, which is absurd to begin with!

It’s the same with assigning elite outdoor woodsman skills to Elan Morin/ Ishamael / Moridin not supported in the least, anywhere in the books.

 

Of course, you’re free to believe a human being while ghosting effortless through trees -where two channelers in that same forest stumble around- can do so without making any sound, or making so little sound that two channelers we know are holding the Source don’t pick any of that up when that same human being can hear those two channelers word for word.

As long as you realise you have to invent & assume more then is healthy. A lot more.

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For all we know, Ishamael did his best thinking while walking out in the woods, far away from a society the titles of his books more than indicates that he had some major issues with.

Just looking at the physical descriptions we have of Ishamael shows us a man who clearly did not sit on his arse all day long.

”For all we know” (meaning, it’s totally unfounded, like your suggestion), Ishamael was a Master Blacksmith too. Or had the biggest stamp collection ever. Or had an apple orchard.

Never mind me, for sticking to the text. Something you unrightfully implied I didn’t do only a few pages ago. It appears you just shot yourself in the foot. You have to admire the irony;

<reply #73, page 7>

I rather look at the books and quotes from RJ, than at your posts if I want any kind if valid information.

 

And yes, stopping sound could probably be done with the True Power. The problem with this is, that it's totally unsuported by the chapter text, that we never saw it done before and that the text literally said sound wasn't produced by his movement. Not that it was silenced, stopped, etc.

RJ stated more than once that he thought he could expect the readers to figure things out for themselves, without him having to put every single little detail out there. Now, if we do know that Moridin used TP in that very chapter, and we do know that he managed to move without making a sound, should it really be necessary for RJ to add "He wove TP so and so", in order for us to connect the dots?

I think this quote is also going to come back to you one day, Maj. ;)

Maybe you should toy with the thought that RJ was referring to the dots I connected? You know, without every single detail put into words.

Fact remains; your version of connecting dots is unsupported by the text & it’s even literally stated the Watcher didn’t produce sound by moving –“ghosting without sound” even (how fitting!)- and not that any sounds produced were blocked. Suit yourself.

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Not really. Carridin clearly thinks about what his personal body servant was supposed to be doing. He also thinks this was the only time Sharbon wasn't where he was supposed to be. RJ cut the sentence short, because he didn't want it to be obvious. He wanted to keep a surprise and still be able to show his audience the clues were always there. The only logical thing Sharbon could say was "your guest", given the whole scene.

No, it is not the only "logical thing". It is not even the most logical thing.

Why would SH send Sharbon running on a fools errand, instead of simply killing him for seeing what he should not have seen?

That is a point in my favour. SHv0,5 would be jeopardizing his important dog Carridin by killing his body servant in the Fortress of the Light. It would draw very unwanted attention by the Children. As you can see only moments before, Carridin get’s a verbal spanking by his Whitecloak boss, Niall. For messing up Whitecloak plans. SHv0,5 isn’t willing to risk any extra attention on this dog.

 

SHv0.5 needed Sharbon out of the room without Sharbon having any reason whatsoever to raise the alarm. SHv0.5 needed Sharbon away for a fair amount of time, so he’d have enough time to teach his dog Carridin, a lesson; buying fruit would take Sharbon out of the Fortress.

SHv0.5 couldn’t dispose of Sharbon by killing him; that would bring unwanted attention to his dog, who was already between a rock and a hard place.

 

The only logical thing for Sharbon to say, was “your guest”.  RJ made sure of that, without spelling it out (hey!,.. I could use your quote above here already. Connect the dots!)

But since you say it isn’t the only logical thing and not even the most logical thing, I’d love to read what you think is the most logical thing…and even all the other logical things you came up with. Do bear in mind that Sharbon was not supposed to be away and was ordered by his lord to ready his lords rooms and that this was the first time Carridin called for him and Sharbon wasn’t there. Good luck!

 

Especially given what happens in that scene, SH threatens to kill Carridins entire family, a threat we know became reality. What better way to illustrate the point than to demonstrate on a useless servant?

See above and my previous post to Mr Ares; SH doesn’t want to jeopardize this dog. He needs this one to do his bidding. That’s why he threatens to living daylights out of him.

A good thing you bring Carridins family up though; per Sammaels words, someone was making sure Ishamaels commands were still executed, even though Ishamael hasn’t been seen ‘on stage’ since the end of TDR! In the meanwhile, Carridin’s entire family is killed. Combine that with this weird hiatus in the killing that RJ brings to our attention per Carridins words.

Here’s the whole time-line with the key-events:

 

Day 340 / Saban-11; (0 days)

- Carridin is ordered by a SHv0.5 to kill Rand within a month.

 

Day 368 / Aine-11; (+28 days, 1 month after promise)

- Jaichim Carridin's sister, Dealda, is carried off from her bridal feast by a Myrddraal.

 

Day 396 / Adar-11; (+56 days, 2 months after promise)

- Jaichim Carridin's cousin is found skinned alive in his bedchamber.

 

Day 422 / Saven-9; (+82 days, almost 3 months after promise)

- Ishamael dies.

 

Day 452 / Amadaine-11; (+112 days, exactly 4 months after promise)

- Carridin thinks about two family members that died two and three months ago. No other family member has died yet for ‘2 whole months’. He should have heard of a third family death by now, because it should have happened 28 days earlier and there is still plenty of family left;

- Later that same day, he frantically tells Liandrin he still has ‘cousins, nephews, nieces and another sister’, so that’s at least 7 more months he can survive on ‘borrowed time’.

- It’s very odd that around the same time that Ishamael was killed, the killing of Carridins family members stops. If SHv0.5 was a completely separate being, why didn’t the killing of Carridins family continue? SHv0.5 made that promise to Carridin. What is the connection?

SHv0.5 made sure the first two family members were killed exactly as promised!

Connect the dots!? ;)

 

Day 652 / Taisham-14; (+312 days, little over 11 months after promise)

- Sammael tells Carridin his last family member (Vanora) died ‘recently’. Sammael says that someone is making sure at least some of Ishamaels commands are still carries out.

According to the Myrddraals promise, it should have happened 4 days earlier; exactly at the 11 month mark. We can conclude Carridin had a total of 10 family members that ‘shared his blood’.

- Apart from that weird hiatus in the murders of Carridins family around the time of Ishamaels dying, the murdering has taken place so that Vanora that died ‘recently’ was the last one to go.

 

Day 687 / Jumara-21; (+347 days, 12 months and one week have passed)

- Jaichim Carridin his time & family has ran out and he is killed as ordered by Moridin.

 

 

So first Ba’alzamon (a horribly burned man hovering above a Myrddraal) gives Carridin orders. SHv0.5 comes to threathen Carridin, fully aware of Ba’alzamons orders and SHv0.5 makes a promise to kill one of his blood-kin for every month that Rand lives. The promise is kept up until Ishamael dies and at the same time the killing stops for at least one month, perhaps two. Per Sammaels words halfway ACoS, we know that someone had been making sure that at least some of Ishamaels orders have been carries out up until then. (Sammael is referring to the killing of Carridins relatives, so Ishamael must have been fully aware of what SHv0.5 promised Carridin) Finally, it is Moridin that keeps SHv0.5 its promise and orders Carridins death.

Also take into consideration that none of the Chosen knew of SHv0.5’s existence, prior to LOC, whereas Ishamael has always known about it’s existence. Of course Ishamael did know; him and SHv0.5 were always linked, part of one and the same being.

Shai’tan deliberately kept it from all the other Chosen, because if that’s what it takes to become Nae’Blis, noone would want to be half a step below the Dark One.

 

Having SH send Sharbon to get some fruit is completely out of character, even without us knowing what SH actually is, a vessel for the DO.

Then please explain why Sharbon went out to buy fruit, against the order of his lord. Mind you, that Carridin even thinks this is the first time, Sharbon wasn’t where he was supposed to be. 

And it would be weird if a Myrddraal asked for fruit; Sharbon would never ever have returned with fruit for a Fade. That meek docile servant would only return if a regular looking & sounding human guest would ask though!

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Ahaha. There's this Dutch saying that translates roughly as; "the exception defines the rule".

What's so hard about admitting philosophers aren't in any way, shape or form 'experienced woodsmen'..?

Sorry, but I do not tend to draw any conclusions based on Dutch sayings.

Good. Neither do I. You appear to tend to draw conclusion based on nothing though.

 

It is quite possible for a philosopher to have achieved skills other than sitting in a chair thinking all day. Especially when we are talking about a philosopher who has not only the OP, but the TP as well to his disposal, as well as experience from the War of Power.

Here we go again! Far fetched unsuported guesswork.

<reply #73, page 7>

I rather look at the books and quotes from RJ, than at your posts if I want any kind if valid information.

.. .. Pants on fire?

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Second; Excuse me, but a true woodsman wouldn't use fancloth, now would he? How is standing very still completely covered in a fabric that makes you blend in your surroundings by default an 'experienced woodsman' skill?

 

Like, Lan for example, wearing his Warder's Cloak, a garment made of Fancloath, while scouting in the blight?  An experienced woodsman, unless he was stupidly arrogant, or in no danger what so ever would use every tool he had at his disposal.  Granted, standing very still while covered in a fabric that makes you blend in is not inherently a skill of an experienced woodsman.  Shadowing someone, completely unnoticed through the woods is.

A fancloth cloak does not a Warder make, young padawan. ;)

They are tools to perform a trade, agreed.

Not necessary ones, but ones that make that trade easier. Any good archer would take the best bow available to him, but the best bow in the whole world wouldn’t make a philosopher an archer. Any master blacksmith would pick the best hammer available to him for working metal, but the best hammer in the world wouldn’t make a philosopher a master blacksmith.

Any experienced hunter would pick the best camouflage available to him, but the best camouflage in the world wouldn’t make a philosopher an experienced hunter.

 

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Wowowow. Slow down there, Swigaro.

Here you go wrong. What we know for a fact, is that Demandred thinks Moridin must be using TP exclusively. We also know for a fact, Demandred hardly ever even used the True Power when he was allowed (it's somewhere in WH). You're giving Demandreds thoughts, based on his own almost non-existant experiences with True Power way too much credit, if you take those as fact for what Moridin does or doesn't do. That's a dangerous asumption. One RJ would love everyone making though.

So, no. Moridin uses the True Power lots, but this isn't fact saying he isn't using the One Power when it suits his needs.

 

We have Demandread's comment, and the scene at Shadar Logoth where he clearly uses TP.  Because Demandread's comment is not the only evidence, I find it short sighted to discount it just because he is a bad guy.  We know its use can not be detected.  Why, then would Moridin, use anything else when stalking two powerful channelers?

The Watcher wouldn’t. Of course the Watcher would use the True Power. And we see from the Watchers PoV that he keeps it at the ready. But nowhere does it even hint at him using the True Power until he Travels.

 

Demandreds thoughts aren’t proof at all; they’re an opinion based on very little personal experience. In Moridin’s actions & PoV’s, we only see True Power usage, that’s true. All I meant to say was that it doesn’t proof that Moridin won’t use the One Power when he feels like it. It’s not fact he uses True Power solely, because Moridin doesn’t tell us or thinks it. It’s most likely though.

 

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On a side note, a thought occured to me, and Mik, this isn't directed solely at you (but I would be interested in your thoughts). RJ has stated that there is a genetic component and a soul based component to the ability to channel (or at least that is my hasty recollection of his statements).  This is why suitable replacement bodies must be found for the DO to Trasmigrate souls of fallen Forsaken.  As we have never seen any other Fade channeling, is it even possible that SH could provide a body for a transmigrated soul and maintain channeling ability, Saidin or TP?  We have examples of non-human beings in Rand Land (Ogier, various created shadowspawn), but channeling seems to be something exclusive to humans.  Granted, as there is, to my knowledge, no examples to support or deny this claim, but does anyone have any thoughts?

Shaidar Haran can channel because it’s the only Myrddraal to ever have a truly living mind; what’s left of Elan Morins mind. Moiraine once dropped that little tidbit of important info about needing a living mind to channel to Egwene in TEoTW.

 

(Sidenote; that’s very important for Rand/ LTT: LTT’s mind never died)

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

[Thor]

shaidar harnan doesn't channel, he is a part of the dark one himself, hence have more than enough access to true power.  his desire to break free from shayol goul is a remnant of the dark one's desire to break free of the prison.

 

and as i said before, that was a load to read and i cba.  the watcher is morridin, end of story.

[Darth_Andrea]

I look at it like this and this is just my opinion not based on the books at all.

 

In the beginning the creator built the wheel of time but didn't want to turn it or guard it himself so he could watch what happens. So He created Saidin and Saidar to turn the wheel. And he created Shai'tan to be like a guardian of the pattern so if there were any flaws he could fix it. I assume Shai'tan didn't like the job and like a jealous rebellious son he turned on his father and tried to undo his work. Hence the soul of the Dragon was created to fill this role after Shai'tan had been locked away, Shai'tan picked a soul of his own for his champion and hoped he could one day use that to be loosed on the pattern and the wheel to destroy them and Prove he was greater than his father.

 

 

just my 2 bits don't know if it makes sense to anyone be me but there it is :D

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea          

[Mr Ares]

Oh dear. I had hoped you would be willing to see reason, but apparently not yet. Still, nil desperandum, nihil sine labore and all that.

 

I’m going to say this in the nicest possible way; you are mixing up active channelling with holding the source. Again.

Rands channelling at the cleansing was felt for miles and miles, due to the enormous amounts of Saidar & Saidin. Check out Demandreds thoughts;

 

Without slowing, [Demandred] turned toward the access key. With the amount of saidin pouring through it, there might as well have been a fiery arrow in the sky pointing to al’Thor.

That doesn't support your point. Demandred feels saidin, saidin would have to pour through in order for Rand to hold it. Also, you provide nothing to show how using the Source would affect the distance over which it could be felt. Nor have you provided anything to show that there is an unalterable maximum distance of 15/16 feet or so. It is entirely your invention. Here's a question: does the amount of saidin held affect the distance over which it can be detected? Will a little be felt as far away as Rand, for example, drawing his full strength?

 

No matter how long I look at this, I think this is really bad manners; first you refer to ‘examples seen in the books’ as an answer for my question.

I point out the books show it as possible. I never went into detail. I further clarified my argument as you apparently didn't grasp it in its entirety (and to be fair I could have gone on in greater detail). Yet when I clarify my point you accuse me of bad manners, and tell me that the answer I provided wasn't what I tell you it was? Arrogance.

What’s so hard about posting; “I stand corrected”?

Considering neither of us appears to be going overboard with saying it, it appears equally hard for the both of us. It should be noted, with regards to what it says in the book that despite your claim to it being the first use, we do not know how many times it was used before the POV started. Speculation is all we have to go on. We know the link was dissolved, we know the Watcher knows that, we do not know how he knows. We do know one other thing, though. About an hour and 10 minutes before you posted (so quite possibly while you were typing your own response, hence you missing it), I edited my post to add a quote which adds rather more strength to my argument, and blows yours out of the water:

“Least of all, my trust for you. I [sammael] will be part of the link, or it ends now.”

 

The golden haired woman [Graendal] threw back her head and laughed. “Poor man,” she said mockingly, waving a beringed finger at him. “Do you not think he would notice that you were linked? He has a teacher, remember. A poor one, but not a complete fool.”

 

-The Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow.

A clear, unambiguous statement that men can be expected to detect links. We still do not know the how, but we do know it is possible. This is thus resolved entirely in my favour.

 

Aiel are not experienced at moving through a forest.

And Ishamael/ Moridin is?!

We do not know. As he is able to move soundlessly in this instance' date=' he is thus capable of moving soundlessly through a forest. The mere fact of him doing it proves he can.

My point was that if you accept that ‘ghosting without sound’ is poetic liberty, thus accepting that the Watcher did make noise, does not mix with following two channelers holding on to the source while the Watcher is able to hear those channelers conversation word for word.

He made sufficiently little noise that he was still able to hear them. And if they heard any sound he made, they took no notice of it, perhaps thinking it only normal. Or perhaps he did make no sound, somehow. Doesn't imply it's a Fade. He can channel. It is perfectly possible for him to do it.

 

And your argument about different terrain totally missed the point I’m making;

It doesn't. Moving as quietly as possible will produce different levels of sound depending on terrain. And we don't know how well that sound would carry. How loud they would be to anyone any given distance away, holding the Source or not.

It’s magnified to the sounds of bones snapping (something very easy to hear).

I've had enough experience of broken bones to know they can snap at more than one volume.

I’m sure you agree that would take more then –say- 15 feet.

I might indeed. But I put no 15 ft limit on sensing the Source.

 

You didn’t “destroy” anything, kind sir. Please don’t come on so strong. It looks a tad silly.

I did. You haven't noticed yet.

 

Shaidar Haran has always been around

Unsubstantiated. We know v0.5 was around in TDR, we don't know when it first became active.

 

You are basing your argument on...

I am basing my argument on the fact we see a man you admit to being Ishamael resurrected moving quietly, thus proving that Ishamael has the ability to move quietly. Simple fact. We know he can do it because he did it. Simply saying over and over that he was a philosopher proves nothing. We know that he was a philosopher. We know he can move soundlessly. So he is a philospher who has learnt to move silently. That is all. Those are the facts, perfectly logical, perfectly accurate.

 

Also you are making the mistake again of thinking Shaidar Haran is a new piece on the board

He is. Even his "predecessor" seems to be a fairly recent creation.

Shaidar Haran has always been around since before the Breaking.

Evidence? Quotes? Anything, in fact, other than your words, your opinions, stated as facts? No. You made it up.

How else do you think Ishamael was only “half sealed” in the Bore?

I do not know. Nor do you. There is no stated or implied link to SH, or any version thereof, being involved in that. As pointed out, we know the Watcher relates himself not being detected to skills learned over years, but the gap between SH0.5 in TDR and the Watcher is less than one year, thus we have no real basis for an assessment of him being around years, and since the Breaking is utterly ridiculous.

 

I said a very good athlete city-boy would still have an easier time moving through that forest then a philosopher would.

You say it, but you do not justify it. We know Ishamael can move soundlessly, because he does. You state that he cannot, even though he does. Sammael is not used to this environment. We do not know how used to this environment Ishamael was, but apparently he has gained skills Sammael hasn't. Such as moving through a forest.

Taking everything we know about Elan Morin/ Ishamael/ Moridin into account, he was just as much a ‘city-boy’ as Sammael.

Including him learning expertise in areas scorned and favoured, including him being able to move soundlessly thorugh a forest? The mere fact of him doing it is proof he can. And you yourself admitted it was Ishamael. You can't have it both ways. The Watcher is Ishamael, the Watcher can do these things, therefore Ishamael can. The Watcher is Ishamael, Ishamael is Moridin, therefore the Watcher is Moridin. You can't say Ishamael was a desk bound philosopher, and thus incapable of moving soundelssly through a forest and then say this person moving thorugh a forest soundlessly is Ishamael.

 

You are a boy, next to me. I don't know of anyone on here who isn't young enough to be my grandchild.

It’s your arrogance and insolence like this that had me re-write this post twice, just to stay civil where you think age gives you more leeway. It’s the quality of the post that matters; not the colour of your hair or the length of the hair on your ears. I don’t really care if you’re older or younger. And if you’re an adult, neither should you.

Arrogance and isolence? I thought we had already established that you do not understand me, nor are you ever likely to, and you wish to remain ignorant of what my character is like, yet you still make slights against my character. And Mik, it is neither. It is fact. Next to me, you are a child. So you are upset when I call you that. Even though it is fact.

 

But the Fade still has the memories of the man - you admitted the Watcher had to be Ishamael. So Ishamael is both man and Myrddraal, but only one at a time. So Ishy v2 has been split in 2. Two bodies, one mind.

No, two bodies & two minds.

And the one uppermost at the time was Ishamael's. Thus however you look at it, the Watcher must be Ishamael, and thus Moridin. Slayer is either Luc or Isam, correct? If "the Nae'blis" is either Ishamel's new body and mind or SH body and mind (Luc never has Isam's mind, nor the reverse), then as it was the Moridin mind uppermost it must have been Moridin. Thus the skills and abilities were those of Moridin. If it were the Fade body, it would also be the Fade mind uppermost, and the memories would be those of SH, and any of Ishy's that floated across would be noted as belonging to him. Thus your theory cannot work. Either it is Moridin or it is SH. You can't have it both ways. It is either one mind in two bodies, like I said, or two minds in two, in which case as it was the human one in control, it was the human body.

 

You must be reading different books…

Just the ones RJ wrote.

What’s with you and “destroying” anyway, Conan? Aren’t we just having a discussion here? The word you were looking for is “refute”. Destroy…sounds so full of anger and frustration.

Full of anger? I'm Mr Ares, I thought we'd met. Anyway, I do destroy your arguments Mik. I refute them as well, but you are left without any credible argument to fall back on. And I've spent my life destroying things. Homes, lives, tanks, why should an argument be any different?

 

Even when I spell it out, you refuse to see logic.

Because your spelling is bad and your logic is worse (metaphorical spelling. Your literal spelling is fine).

If it was a reference to male Chosen only, then the sentence is wrong.

It isn't. That is simply a limited understanding of the english language talking. It was referring to the Chosen. You see this: "Aginor was the second strongest man [in the world]...". Whereas this is what everyone else sees, which is entirely possible, and borne out by Ishamael being a man: "Aginor was the second strongest man [among the Chosen]...". You see? Adding LTT doesn't really change that. It is still entirely possible, and indeed is by far the most probable, not to mention the only possible, interpretation. To say that including LTT changes it from meaning amongst the Chosen to amongst the entire channeling population is wrong.

<this bit is irrelevant grammar-wise but it keeps fooling just about everyone>

Stop and think about that for a moment. I am always wary when people put forward interpretations that contradict everything we know, and which are unsupported, and then claim that only they can see them without stopping to think why nobody else can see them. You see a pattern within a pattern even when there isn't one, exactly like I said. This is the reason it fools everyone apart from you - it is correct, and the only person being fooled is you.

 

The man’s [Luc’s] smell stood out among the others, cold and separate, too, almost as if he had nothing in common with the men around him, not even humanity. (TSR, Chapter 40)

 

A vagrant puff of air brought him a cold smell, human yet not, and he smiled. [Perrin smelling Slayer in TAR] (TSR, Chapter 53)

 

The two men [slayer and Luc] could not have been more dissimilar. And yet . . . That cold smell. They did not smell the same, but both had an icy, hardly human scent. [Perrin comparing Slayers smell to Luc’s] (TSR, Chapter 53)

That he seems like a a man to you, is pretty irrelevant when RJ’s words tell us Slayer has nothing in common ‘with the men around him, not even humanity. How can you hold up that Slayer is a man, when -at the very best-, he can be called “hardly human”, is beyond me.

Look at the language. Almost as if..., hardly human..., human yet not... Each time, Slayer is still human, and yet is different.

 

Servants don’t go wandering off when they are supposed to ready the rooms as requested by the Inquisitor of the Hand of the Light.

The fact that he did puts the lie to that. He did go. We do not know if he was sent, or if he went of his own volition, nor when he went.

We know that Sharbon went to buy fruits because of Carridins guest

You are correct up to the word because. We know he went. That is all.

 

It wasn’t stated flat out, but again that’s just called common sense, Mr Ares.

No, it's called making stuff up. Nothing says the guy was one of the Children, therefore it is only common sense that he is one of the Children?

In the very Heart of the Children of the Light’s Fortress, the personal body servant of the Inquisitor of the Hand of the Light wouldn’t just be someone who could like Aes Sedai, now could it?

That hardly proves your point. There is nothing to state that this servant is a Whitecloak, as opposed to a servant of the Whitecloaks. We know Aes Sedai hire servants, and they even have servants who are not *gasp*shock*horror* Novices or Accepted, so it is not without precedent in the books. He need not be dedicated to anything beyond his job as a servant. And maybe his master as well. Also, Balwer is not, so far as we know, a Whitecloak, yet is still the spymaster for them. Why should someone lower down than the LCC not be able to work with a non-Whitecloak?

When nothing’s there to indicate it, it’s a bullshit argument to begin with.

Glad you admit that that is what your original point was. There was aboslutely nothing to indicate it.

 

The prickling vanished from the watcher’s skin as she released saidar as well.

At first glance, the prickling vanishes from the Watchers skin because Graendal releases Saidar. But this is not the case. We can see this, because in that sentence, RJ sneakily added the seemingly unimportant words 'as well'. Had those two words not been there, then the vanishing of the prickling skin would have ben a result of the release of Saidar by Grandeal.

Not so, Mik. She releases the weave, and she releases saidar, as indicated by the prickiling sensation vanishing, as well as releasing the weave. She releases saidar as well as the weave, and releasing saidar is what the absence of the prickling sensation indicates. It is clear in the words.

Don’t make me teach you English again; the words “as well” clearly indicate no direct relationship between the two, but that they happened simultaneously.

You teach me english? I think you are in greater need of lessons. It is quite clear. The prickling goes because she releases saidar. What does the as well refer to then? I covered it: she releases saidar as well as releasing the weave. She releases the weave, and then she releases saidar as well. The prickling vanishes when she releases saidar. All perfectly in line with the usual way of men sensing women holding the Source.

 

Wearing black at night isnt a skill, it is common sense.

Not if you're crossing a road.

 

That is a point in my favour. SHv0,5 would be jeopardizing his important dog Carridin by killing his body servant in the Fortress of the Light. It would draw very unwanted attention by the Children. As you can see only moments before, Carridin get’s a verbal spanking by his Whitecloak boss, Niall. For messing up Whitecloak plans. SHv0,5 isn’t willing to risk any extra attention on this dog.

No. SH.05 tells Carridin that he forswore his vows to the Light and should only be obeying orders from the Shadow, criticises him for returning to the FotL even though he was ordered back there and says Niall's orders are dung. If you

do not want someone jeopardised or gaining unwanted attention, ordering him to disobey any orders his superiors in the Whitecloaks give him is hardly the best way of remaining inconspicuous. Saying disobeying the LCC is the best way to avoid unwanted attention is lunacy.

 

That meek docile servant would only return if a regular looking & sounding human guest would ask though!

Regular looking? Rules out Ba'alzamon, he of the flaming body cavities.

 

Shaidar Haran can channel because it’s the only Myrddraal to ever have a truly living mind

Yet more made up rubbish. Living mind indeed. Meaningless crap.

(Sidenote; that’s very important for Rand/ LTT: LTT’s mind never died)

Not even when he killed himself? His mind was still alive even though he was dead?

 

And he created Shai'tan to be like a guardian of the pattern so if there were any flaws he could fix it.

How does this tally with RJ imagining them as yin and yang, Shai'tan being the dark balance to the Creator, a "somewhat Manichean" concept?

[Majsju]

Wearing black at night isnt a skill, it is common sense. Do not try and tell me there is anyone who is unable to put fancloth on and stand still without being caught.

 

An army man wearing camouflage gear is well equipped but still needs skill. The Watcher wearing fancloth needs only to stop moving. There is a massive difference Thor and you know it.

 

It is a wee bit more complicated than you seem to want to think. Moridin not making any noise, wearing fancloth, and not making any movement that would make him somewhat visible despite the fancloth does not workindependent from eachother, they are all part of the same skills he is refering to.

 

And if you think it is piece of cake for anyone to stop dead and not make a sound, you can not have spent many minutes of your life in a forest.

 

 

 

 

[Jethro]

Standing still is a skill then it seems. Well, I can definitely say I have also persued skills that Sammael scorns then. I am pretty sure that if I was stood still in a forest in a suit that makes me invisable unless I move, nobody would see me. Not sure about everyone else.

 

Anyway, if Im honest I am starting to believe Shaidar very well be connected to Moridin/Ishamael like Mik says. The majority of Miks arguements for the idea dont seem to want to be proven wrong. I also think RJ almost slipped up on something regarding this but I will have to post the quote later.

[Tel Janin]

As a career military man and a former special operator, I can tell you that standing still is very much a trained skill for those who typically operate forward.  It's not as easy as you might think, stealthily standing still.  There's a lot more to it than just motion, and the longer you're stuck in one position, the harder it gets. 

 

And, I imagine it would be slightly more difficult with fancloth; my reasoning for this is based on the descriptions of Warder cloaks.  It strikes me to be more like the reflective armor of the Predators (from the movies) than something that just makes you invisible (like Harry Potter's cloak, also from the movies), meaning that movement of any kind would show as some sort of reflective ripple.  Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  ;D

[Majsju]

Again, it is not only a matter of standing still. You must be able to stop dead in the middle of a step at the first hint of the person you are shadowing starting to look behind him, without making a noise, and then remain frozen.

 

Tel Janin, that interpretation of how fancloth works is pretty much the one I gave a page ago or so.

 

As for Miks arguements wanting to be proved wrong, I would say that all of them has been thoroughly shot down. If anything, he has provided further evidence that Moridin is not the same as SH.

[Mr Ares]

I am pretty sure that if I was stood still in a forest in a suit that makes me invisable unless I move, nobody would see me.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Anyway, if Im honest I am starting to believe Shaidar very well be connected to Moridin/Ishamael like Mik says. The majority of Miks arguements for the idea dont seem to want to be proven wrong. I also think RJ almost slipped up on something regarding this but I will have to post the quote later.

Whether they want to be or not, Mik's arguements are disproven. And there is still nothing to indicate the Moridin/Shaidar Haran link Mik suggests.

 

Now, the issue of assumptions has come up before, so why don't we stop and list the assumptions needed to make each theory viable. That way, we will at least know who William of Ockham supports.

 

For Moridin to be the Watcher we must assume that Moridin is capable of moving through a forest with relative ease and without being detected. Just that. The Watcher sensed saidin, and that there was no link, but men can do both. That seems to be it. One assumption.

 

For it to be Shaidar Haran we must assume that SH sometimes thinks of itself as it and sometimes as it. We must assume Ishamael's mind found its way into SH. We must assume a Slayer like link, to allow Ishamael to be sometimes Moridin, and sometimes Shaidar, we must assume that Ishamael's mind is combined with a non-living Myrddraal mind, that Myrddraal have non-living minds, that this is the reason for SH being different to other Fades, that it has been around years, and almost certainly more, many more. At least 7. Considerably more assumptions being made by Mik in order for him to get his theory off the ground. So how could any reasonable person consider this theory more likely? It is almost entirely made up. A pretty story, but not RJ's story. William of Ockham is spinning in his grave (not an assumption, he actually is). So, how about we wield that famous razor, slice away the unnecessary bells and whistles needed to make this thing fly? How about we do that, and find ourselves with the theory that is closest to the evidence in the books? How about we go with Moridin as the Watcher?

 

Veni. Vidi. Vici.

[Dmitri]

Because, like I said before; we've seen twice in TEotW, Myrddraal can move absolutely soundlesly, literally.

And is this a learned skill?

I don’t know. Is walking a learned skill? It could very well be, for what once was just a human adult male.

Ask RJ how Myrddraal develop their skills; not me. Is channelling a learned skill to sparkers? Not the act itself, but using it effectively is. Your point is moot to start with.

We know for a fact Myrddraal can move soundlessly. That’s very important, considering what the Watcher shows us. That’s logic for you. Pure and simple.

 

Mik, for all we know from the books, each and every Myrddraal mentioned had the ability of soundless movement. Not that some are more or less successful in it, no.

It is their "inborn", so to say, skill, rather that learned.

Of course, you can provide us a quote where there is shown a Myrddraal that hasn't mastered that skill. That would be satisfying.

And, on contrary,  it's different with channellers - because it's a skill that can be trained, and we constantly see difference in channelling, don't we?  ;) And also in walking, by the way  :)

 

I have a feeling, that you take too much into RJ's "poetic wording" - you know, a dream in sometimes just a dream :D  We can't expect that behind every phrase stands a new, completely unknown theory which only you have found. Occam's razor still works perfect enough, as Mr.Ares said.

[Mr Ares]

Mik, for all we know from the books, each and every Myrddraal mentioned had the ability of soundless movement. Not that some are more or less successful in it, no.

It is their "inborn", so to say, skill, rather that learned.

One the one hand, it could be a learned skill, in which case we assume SH learned it. On the other, it is not learned, so what did SH learn over years? We have to assume SH has been around years. A couple more assumptions there to add to the list, so thanks Dmitri. If Mik wishes to talk about other people making assumptions, he is just a guy in a glass house who hasn't learned not to throw stones. If he wishes to talk about logic, the most logical answer is:

If Ishamel is the Watcher

And Ishamael is Moridin

Then Moridin is the Watcher.

Mik agrees with the first two, but disputes the third, in favour of:

If Ishamel is the Watcher

And Ishamael is both Moridin and SH

Then the Watcher is either Moridin or SH.

And then needs to go on to show that Moridin and SH are both Ishamael, and then that it was SH that was in the forest. However you look at it, this is not the easiest way from a to b, this is not the most logical conclusion. The Watcher is Moridin.

[Mik]

You didn't honestly think I'd forget about this thread, now did you?

 

On "moving soundlesly (on a forest floor)":

 

 

Wearing black at night isnt a skill, it is common sense. Do not try and tell me there is anyone who is unable to put fancloth on and stand still without being caught.

 

An army man wearing camouflage gear is well equipped but still needs skill. The Watcher wearing fancloth needs only to stop moving. There is a massive difference Thor and you know it.

It is a wee bit more complicated than you seem to want to think. Moridin not making any noise, wearing fancloth, and not making any movement that would make him somewhat visible despite the fancloth does not workindependent from eachother, they are all part of the same skills he is refering to.

It's actually hilarious that those points you're mentioning are all in my favour!

Because when you consider the Watcher to be a skilled Myrddraal, like Shaidar Haran is, it actually makes a lot of sense that the Watcher moves without sound (as we have seen happening for a fact by Myrdraal in TEotW twice). It also makes perfect sense that a Myrddraal can stop dead in it's tracks with unnatural speed because we've seen Myrddraal move (flow rather) with unnatural speed on multiple occasions thoughout the books and we've also seen it stand unnaturally still as well.

Heck, I only need a small quote to simply proove Shaidar Haran can do all that:

 

Shaidar Haran stood in front of that door, black-clad and wreathed in dimness like smoke, so still that it was almost a shock when it spoke, a sound of bone dust being ground.

...//...

It flowed across the hallway in that eye-wrenching way, ebon cloak hanging in denial of motion. One moment it was a statue ten paces away, the next it loomed over her so she had the choice of backing away or craning her neck to look up at that deadwhite, eyeless face

.

 

 

And if you think it is piece of cake for anyone to stop dead and not make a sound, you can not have spent many minutes of your life in a forest.

Common sense (and the books) actually agree with you here that it's not a piece of cake at all to move soundlesly through a forest. Or to stop dead in your tracks. We can see how impossible that is from how Sammael & Graendal stumble through the same forest, for instance.

Calling it 'not a piece of cake' is an understatement.

But as seen in the quote I posted above, we know for a fact Shaidar Haran actually is skilled enough to do just that.

 

As a career military man and a former special operator, I can tell you that standing still is very much a trained skill for those who typically operate forward.  It's not as easy as you might think, stealthily standing still.  There's a lot more to it than just motion, and the longer you're stuck in one position, the harder it gets. 

 

And, I imagine it would be slightly more difficult with fancloth; my reasoning for this is based on the descriptions of Warder cloaks.  It strikes me to be more like the reflective armor of the Predators (from the movies) than something that just makes you invisible (like Harry Potter's cloak, also from the movies), meaning that movement of any kind would show as some sort of reflective ripple.  Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  ;D

Again, it is not only a matter of standing still. You must be able to stop dead in the middle of a step at the first hint of the person you are shadowing starting to look behind him, without making a noise, and then remain frozen.

 

Tel Janin, that interpretation of how fancloth works is pretty much the one I gave a page ago or so.

 

As for Miks arguements wanting to be proved wrong, I would say that all of them has been thoroughly shot down. If anything, he has provided further evidence that Moridin is not the same as SH.

Well, again you both make a good point in favour of my position. Because -again- your point of worry only applies for when the Watcher is human. You might recall that Myrddraal not only move with unnatural speed and can move without producing any sound but that their cloaks hang unnaturally still and they can actually 'stop as if they had never moved'!

 

And again, I can simply proove Shaidar Haran has that 'myrdraal-skill' as far back as LoC:

“I will take you to the Great Lord,” the Myrddraal said. “I am Shaidar Haran.” It turned away and began climbing the mountain, like a serpent in its fluid motion. Its inky cloak hung unnaturally still, without even a ripple.

 

Whaddayaknow! Shaidar Haran wouldn't have the problem you describe here as a big worry for humans, so it actually makes more sense that the Watcher is a Myrddraal.

Because -like you yourself say- a human being would hardly benefit as much from being 'swathed in fancloth' as a Myrddraal would.

 

 

Because, like I said before; we've seen twice in TEotW, Myrddraal can move absolutely soundlesly, literally.

And is this a learned skill?

I don’t know. Is walking a learned skill? It could very well be, for what once was just a human adult male.

Ask RJ how Myrddraal develop their skills; not me. Is channelling a learned skill to sparkers? Not the act itself, but using it effectively is. Your point is moot to start with.

We know for a fact Myrddraal can move soundlessly. That’s very important, considering what the Watcher shows us. That’s logic for you. Pure and simple.

Mik, for all we know from the books, each and every Myrddraal mentioned had the ability of soundless movement. Not that some are more or less successful in it, no.

It is their "inborn", so to say, skill, rather that learned.

Of course, you can provide us a quote where there is shown a Myrddraal that hasn't mastered that skill. That would be satisfying.

And, on contrary,  it's different with channellers - because it's a skill that can be trained, and we constantly see difference in channelling, don't we?  ;) And also in walking, by the way  :)

Like I said previous to your reply, it's a moot point. I'm pretty sure that either Isam or Luc (or probably both) had to get used to their new abilities/ powers given by Shai'tan when they became Slayer.

Since I advocate that Moridin had his Myrdraal-link perfected in a "Slayer-like" way when he was Transmigrated (and got linked to a Myrddraal more closely), it doesn't matter wether regular Myrddraal have these powers -that stem from shai'tan- inborn or not. The "24/7 creature" that is Shaidar Haran/ Moridin had to get used to them and learn how to use them properly.

 

I have a feeling, that you take too much into RJ's "poetic wording" - you know, a dream in sometimes just a dream :D  We can't expect that behind every phrase stands a new, completely unknown theory which only you have found. Occam's razor still works perfect enough, as Mr.Ares said.

*shrug* Perhaps.

 

About Occam's Razor you and Mr Ares keep waving about, let me say that it's a non-argument for more then one reason;

 

1) Let me quote Einstein who said something along the lines of that there is GREAT beauty in making everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, but *I* didn't write these books so I'm not the one who decided how simple (or complex if you will) this story is. Than there's the fact that "simple" (or "complex") is all in the eye of the beholder. Meaning that what is simple for one person, might be less simple for others. Or vice versa.

And the most important part of Einsteins statement is the end: "do not make the explanation more simple then it can be".

You have to take all parts of the whole into acount first and then come up with the simplest -most elegant- solution. You shouldn't be trying to come up with the simplest answer for parts of the whole, because you'll end up with a wrong conclusion.

 

In other words;

When a bigger theory is needed to explain all the parts of the whole, it's still better then a smaller explanation that cannot explain the whole. I'm not overcomplicating anything but I'm giving the simplest answer -given what we know up untill now- that I can come up with given all the factors involved.

 

2) It's folly to wave Ockham's razor about because it's "rules" don't apply to a still developing story! For stories (you know, figments of a writers immagination), Ockham's razor actually works only in hindsight of the whole story to evaluate how good the (sub-)plot was. How can you wave Ockham's razor around like it's actually supposed to mean a damn thing when the explanation I have is for a still developing plot? *shrugs*

 

 

I'll tackle other stuff posted in later posts, because the current forum doesn't allow for a lot of quotes (and because I'm out of time)

Cheers,

Mik

[Mr Ares]

I don't really see why you felt the need to dredge up an argument that's been dead for more than two years.

2) It's folly to wave Ockham's razor about because it's "rules" don't apply to a still developing story! For stories (you know, figments of a writers immagination), Ockham's razor actually works only in hindsight of the whole story to evaluate how good the (sub-)plot was. How can you wave Ockham's razor around like it's actually supposed to mean a damn thing when the explanation I have is for a still developing plot? *shrugs*

Because Occam's Razor is for theories, not literary criticism. It says nothing about how good the sub-plot was, it's just a tool to help with theorising. The simplest answer is that the Watcher is Moridin. The Watcher being Shaidar Haran is insanely overcomplicated, completely unsupported, and solves nothing that wasn't already solved by the Watcher being Moridin. That the story is still developing is irrelevant to Occam's Razor - if we had all the answers, we wouldn't need a theory. That it's the product of a writer's imagination is irrelevant, because the principle works just as well. True, RJ could have had a needlessly complex solution in mind that he never provided any evidence for. That doesn't much help with coming up with a theory. In hindsight, Occam's Razor is useless, because we already have the answer. Because this is a still developing plot, one for which not all the answers have been provided, we are trying to guess at the answers. Occam's Razor tells us not to overcomplicate those answers. We won't necessarily be right, but it'll help a bit. Ignoring it to come up with whatever crackpot theory we fancy might be fun, but it doesn't really help us come to a solution that is likely to be correct.

[Terez]

Mik is arguing that the Watcher is Shaidar Haran? Really?

[Mik]

I don't really see why you felt the need to dredge up an argument that's been dead for more than two years.

Dead? I'd say "dormant".

 

 

Mik is arguing that the Watcher is Shaidar Haran? Really?

Hey Ter.

I'm arguing the Nae'blis is "Slayer-like" amalgamation of what's left of Elan Morin & a Fade. And since Luckers once posted in this thread it was a fact that the Watcher is Moridin, I'm trying to show that's not the case. I think the Watcher is the Nae'bliss in Shaidar Haran form.

 

Really?

Really really.

[yoniy0]

Ok Mik, let me put it this way: do you have new evidence to support your hypothesis? I mean, a whole new book came out since our last go at it, featuring both Moridin and Shaidar Haran. Otherwise, I fear most of us simply don't interpret the clues the way that you do, and after debating the issue for some time now, I'm doubtful we'll change our minds based on the same ol' arguments