Equal yet not

[benr]

It seems to me that the Wheel is the circular nature of this particular universe; the re-born heroes, the endless confrontation between the Dragon (Reborn!) and Shai'tan.  However, each age is significantly different from previous (or subsequent) ages - One Power usage is different; technologies are different; etc.  I have always thought that victory by Shai'tan meant an end to the Wheel; time would become linear, and free will would be restored (or created).  Neither the Creator or the D.O. would hold sway; man (and trolloc, et al) would be free to choose their own course.  I'll RAFO (or not), as the case may be.

[RAND AL THOR]

I asked because some posts suggested that the 'Wheel' was creation itself and that destroying it means undoing all and leaving nothing but a void. I'm unsure on the whole agenda, of course.

[Swigaro]

The Wheel is the representation of the circular time exhibited in the WoT Universe.  The DO breaking the Wheel, would, essentially stop the coming and going of the various ages, thus making time linear.  As it was said earlier in the thread, if this happens, there is no going back.  No Heroes of the Horn, no Dragon, no hope...  As the Creator does not interfere, if the DO ever wins it is game over for ever...

[Mr Ares]

Wow Dreadlord. Who made you Mr Ares?

I did.

 

Exactly. Darkness covers everything when there is no light' date=' and light MAKES shadows which is lesser darkness; darkness doesnt have to do anything to be there, and it cant be removed without light, and even that is only temporary. Darkness prevails![/quote']

Ah' date=' but total darkness cannot exist where there is light, because shadows only exist where light is blocked.  Darkness cannot snuff out light, but light cuts through darkness.  Balefire that.[/quote']And scissors cut paper! Beat that.

 

time would become linear, and free will would be restored

I disagree. RJ said Shai'tan was a control freak. Why would such a being allow the existence of free will? He is the denial of any will but His own. That the Wheel exists beyond His control is an affront to Him. That is why He seeks to control/destroy it. Destroying the Wheel doesn't just destroy cyclical time, it destroys time. No linearity. No time at all. There never was and there never will be. Unless Shai'tan gives it.

[Mik]

Wow Dreadlord. Who made you Mr Ares?

I did.

Poor fella.

 

Destroying the Wheel doesn't just destroy cyclical time, it destroys time. No linearity. No time at all. There never was and there never will be. Unless Shai'tan gives it.

Exactly. And we all know, that Shai'tan does not share. He does not give.

The only flaw Shai'tan has once everything is unmade, is that Shai'tan exists. His existance is also his downfall, because existing means Creation still has a tiny foothold.

 

And at one 'point' (sorta, there is no point, but we need the concept to immagine it, I guess), Creation will start from there again.

And Creation will lock away Shai'tan powerless for Creation cannot 'unmake' it's nemesis for it can only create. The only thing Creation can do is bind it's counterpart in itself. And there lies it's downfall, because where they touch, there Shai'tan has a tiny foothold; a 'thin spot' if you will. And Shai'tan will be bound untill (part of) creation decides to give him their power & free him.

And we do battle to the Last!

 

I don't know if that made sense to you, but it does to me.

[Luckers]

Exactly. And we all know, that Shai'tan does not share. He does not give.

 

Sure he does, we've seen that many times. Shai'tan can create when he chooses to.

 

 

[Mik]

Exactly. And we all know, that Shai'tan does not share. He does not give.

 

Sure he does, we've seen that many times.

Hrm. It's semantics. I guess you could call it giving. He only gives things that have a price more costly then what you recieve. What he gives come directly from the one he gives it to; he toiok it first. You always end up giving more back to Shai'tan.

And he only gives these things because he needs creation to do the work he cannot. Shai'tan is a hollow promise only.

I guess you're right though in the litteral sense.

 

Shai'tan can create when he chooses to.

Shai'tan manipulates creation. He changes what has already been created by removing parts. That's not creating; that's destroying.

 

That's why the Seals are falling apart. That patch won't hold Shai'tan, because he can touch the Seals. He's not using his so called True Power on them; he's sucking existence from them. That's why the indestructible seals (by creation standards) break eventually and the weave attached to it snaps. (and His touch uis gone)

 

The Blight is what it is, because the life-force is sucked from it and that twists the terrain.

What Shai'tan touches is twisted only, like the Myrddraal. They are literally half-way between reality & nothingness.

 

He's the evil counterpart of Creation; he uncreates.

Give me some examples of what Shai'tan himself created?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Shaidar Haran? Also I guess maybe he technically "Creates" the odd weather and color of the sky and things like that. Even some of the little things like the way he makes the cave opening close up on Moghedian. I guess he had to make the extra rock lol.

[Mik]

Shaidar Haran?

In essence is a Myrddraal. Myrddraal are creatures that are 'Neverborns'. They do not have a living mind, hence the fact they cannot channel. They are literally 'half-human'. The other part just isn't there, hence the reason why the wind (a metaphor for Time) cannot touch them. They are one of the best examples that show Shai'tan manipulates creation; he unmakes parts.

 

The funny part about Shaidar Haran is that he does have a living mind (of a sorts). It's one of my lovely little theories that Shaidar Haran is part of the creature that is Moridin. (there, I said it...)

 

Also I guess maybe he technically "Creates" the odd weather...

That's an example of manipulating what was already there. Manipulation by removal; Drought is

just an absence of water. Winter is an absence of warmth.

 

...and color of the sky and things like that. Even some of the little things like the way he makes the cave opening close up on Moghedian. I guess he had to make the extra rock lol.

Manipulation again. "reality was clay". He didn't make reality, he just messes it up.

[Luckers]

Hrm. It's semantics. I guess you could call it giving. He only gives things that have a price more costly then what you recieve. What he gives come directly from the one he gives it to; he toiok it first. You always end up giving more back to Shai'tan.

And he only gives these things because he needs creation to do the work he cannot. Shai'tan is a hollow promise only.

I guess you're right though in the litteral sense.

 

Semantics... he gives people powers and abilities that they didn't have before. The presense of side effects or downsides does not make that semantics.

 

Shai'tan manipulates creation. He changes what has already been created by removing parts. That's not creating; that's destroying.

 

Except he doesn't. The creation of the shadowspawn involved adding different species together. So did the creation of Slayer.

 

I'll concede it might be said that he manipulates and alters what is already there--but that is creation. With the exception of the big band every event in this universe involves transforming one things into something else. Or two things into something else. Either way adaption and evolution is creation--insofar as we the human race understand the concept. Nothing is created or destroyed, all things continue to exist, merely in new forms. It's one of the fundemental physical rules of existance.

 

In as such i see no reason to avoid the concept that the Dark One creates--or facilitates creation. He makes things that were not before--thats creating.

 

That's why the Seals won't hold Shai'tan; he's not using his so called True Power on them; he's sucking existence from them.

 

Perhaps. There's no evidence to support it, but its a viable theory.

 

The Blight is what it is, because the life-force is sucked from it and that twists the terrain.

 

Except the blight is a thriving ecosystem with perhaps the most diverse and plentiful life on the planet. Oh, its nasty and deadly, but i find it hard to support the idea that life has been sucked out of there.

 

You might do better with making that argument about the Blasted Lands.

 

What Shai'tan touches is twisted only, like the Myrddraal. They are literally half-way between reality & nothingness.

 

Certainly, they are twisted--but that doesn't mean he hasn't created. And there is nothing to support the second part of that comment--or suggest it.

 

He's the evil counterpart of Creation; he uncreates.

 

He seems inclined to destruction, but we have definately seen him create. He is not a polar reality, bound by the nature of his inclinations. He can create as readily as destroy, he just usually chooses not to.

 

Incidently, nothing in that directly indicates that he is evil--destruction is not evil, its a necassary part of existence. What makes the Dark One evil is if he gains pleasure from the destruction... which i suspect he probably does.

 

Give me some examples of what Shai'tan himself created?

 

Slayed, Shaidar Haren, the shadowspawn--his power was used, in any case. Even the recycled Forsaken can be said to be creation--he changed what was and made something that hadn't been before. That's creation.

 

In essence is a Myrddraal. Myrddraal are creatures that are 'Neverborns'. They do not have a living mind, hence the fact they cannot channel. They are literally 'half-human'. The other part just isn't there, hence the reason why the wind (a metaphor for Time) cannot touch them. They are one of the best examples that show Shai'tan manipulates creation; he unmakes parts.

 

Umm... you made that up. Myrrdraal are quite clearly sentient and intelligent. They have desires, and feelings. They know pain and fear.

 

That they can't channel is due to the genetic contemination (wow i wish there was a way to say that without sounding like a nazi) resulting from the animal genetics in them.

 

And we know for a fact that the reason the wind cannot touch them is because they are slightly out of phase with the rest of the world.

 

That's an example of manipulating what was already there. Manipulation by removal; Drought is

just an absence of water. Winter is an absence of warmth.

 

It's a little more complex than that--a lot more, really. Though i'd agree, neither really deserve the word creation--though THAT is truly semantics.

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Shaidar Haran?

In essence is a Myrddraal. Myrddraal are creatures that are 'Neverborns'. They do not have a living mind, hence the fact they cannot channel. They are literally 'half-human'. The other part just isn't there, hence the reason why the wind (a metaphor for Time) cannot touch them. They are one of the best examples that show Shai'tan manipulates creation; he unmakes parts.

 

The funny part about Shaidar Haran is that he does have a living mind (of a sorts). It's one of my lovely little theories that Shaidar Haran is part of the creature that is Moridin. (there, I said it...)

 

Also I guess maybe he technically "Creates" the odd weather...

That's an example of manipulating what was already there. Manipulation by removal; Drought is

just an absence of water. Winter is an absence of warmth.

 

...and color of the sky and things like that. Even some of the little things like the way he makes the cave opening close up on Moghedian. I guess he had to make the extra rock lol.

Manipulation again. "reality was clay". He didn't make reality, he just messes it up.

 

Yeah I think Luckers pretty much covered most of that, about SH and such, so I won't waste my time trying to make it sound better. I guess I could concede that the weather isn't really technically creation, but like Luckers also said, that really is semantics. But I have to say, you seem to have a few...Not entirely baseless theories that you voice as if they were fact. Good imagination and everything, but I don't really think you should assume too much. No offense. Unless you take some then uhhh, not really much I can do.  :-\

[Mik]

I understand what you're saying, guys.

If this level of manipulation & altering can't be called creating, what can?

 

Let me put it differently then; what Shai'tan creates, he creates by removal solely.

 

Sure, he can put Slayer together, but that meant that the sum of what Slayer is, is much less then the individual parts.

Same can be said for all things Shai'tan; the less there is of creation, the more power he gets, simply by the fact that creation has less hold on it.

 

Shai'tan creates new things by uncreating parts of the old. By leaving stuff out.

 

Except the blight is a thriving ecosystem with perhaps the most diverse and plentiful life on the planet. Oh, its nasty and deadly, but i find it hard to support the idea that life has been sucked out of there.

 

You might do better with making that argument about the Blasted Lands.

I disagree that the BLight is a 'thriving ecosystem'; it's a zone where life manages to cling to what little is left of it, twisted by the life-sucking touch of the Dark One. The Blasted Lands is the Blight's future if Shai'tan manages to get a bigger grip on the Wheel. Reality & life grow less and less from the border of the Blight to the center of Shayol Ghul, because the tighter it's grip, the more Shai'tan removes from it.

That's just my take on it.

 

 

That's why the Seals won't hold Shai'tan; he's not using his so called True Power on them; he's sucking existence from them.

 

Perhaps. There's no evidence to support it, but its a viable theory.

That flake lying on the table was impossible. Those discs were made of cuendillar, heartstone, and nothing made of cuendillar could be broken, not even by the One Power. Whatever force was used against it only made it stronger. The making of heartstone had been lost in the Breaking of the World, but whatever had been made of it during the Age of Legends still existed, even the most fragile vase, even if the Breaking had sunk it to the bottom of the ocean or buried it beneath a mountain. Of course, three of the seven discs were broken already, but it had taken a good deal more than a knife. Come to think of it, though, he did not know how those three really had been broken. If no force short of the Creator could break heartstone, then that should be that.

I think the evidence is in the books. Nothing can destroy Heartstone. No power can harm it. Then perhaps the absence of power? The touch of the absence of anything?

Can you think of another way?

 

What Shai'tan touches is twisted only, like the Myrddraal. They are literally half-way between reality & nothingness.

Certainly, they are twisted--but that doesn't mean he hasn't created. And there is nothing to support the second part of that comment--or suggest it.

What do you mean there is nothing to support they are only half in reality?

They are not touched by wind. Wind is a metaphor for Time. The Wheel of Time is all of reality.

 

"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

 

“Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.”

 

Mirrors only show them as a blur. Why?

I think there's certainly more then enough to support it, let alone suggest it.

 

In essence is a Myrddraal. Myrddraal are creatures that are 'Neverborns'. They do not have a living mind, hence the fact they cannot channel. They are literally 'half-human'. The other part just isn't there, hence the reason why the wind (a metaphor for Time) cannot touch them. They are one of the best examples that show Shai'tan manipulates creation; he unmakes parts.

Umm... you made that up. Myrrdraal are quite clearly sentient and intelligent. They have desires, and feelings. They know pain and fear.

Maybe. I like to think it can be found in the books.

 

I like to think Myrddraal are 'only' the human part of what was to become a Trolloc. How? Because the human part of their soul allowed channeling and somehow that severs the link made by Aginor with the True Power between the animal & human parts of what was to become a Trolloc. It's quite clear the 'True' & One Power repel eachother, so that could snap the link somehow. If the Trolloc was to become a male, The Human throwback-part develops & the part that is lost develops as ..errr.. 'nothingness'; the domain of Shai'tan.

 

Yes, they have some Human traits; half of them (what Aginor selected) & twisted by Shai'tan. They have a mind..half of it, the other half belongs to the Dark One. I don't dare call that a living mind. Especially since it takes a 'living mind' to channel:

“I [Moiraine] have told you, child [Egwene], things do not have power. The One Power comes from the True Source, and only a living mind can wield it.

 

That they can't channel is due to the genetic contemination (wow i wish there was a way to say that without sounding like a nazi) resulting from the animal genetics in them.

I think it's because they are not alive..or alive enough. I think the animal part is totally gone and this too is supported by the books; all Myrddraal look as though cast from the same mold. If each Myrddraal was 'contaminated' by animal genetics, why don't they show. A feather here.. a talon there..?

The 'contamination' is from Shai'tan.

 

That's why vermin, ravens & Draghkar alike report to Myrddraal. (That's also straight from the books.)

That's more support that there is a direct link with Shai'tan.

 

You think the fear caused by their gaze comes from the animal contamination?

Or is it human? I never saw it in a Trolloc...

 

And we know for a fact that the reason the wind cannot touch them is because they are slightly out of phase with the rest of the world.

And why can't that mean that they are partly outside of reality?

The fact that they are "out of phase with the rest of the world" & wind cannot touch them, support my case, I think.

 

Edit;

I looked up exact quote:  "slightly out of phase with time and reality."

 

That's an example of manipulating what was already there. Manipulation by removal; Drought is just an absence of water. Winter is an absence of warmth.

It's a little more complex than that--a lot more, really. Though i'd agree, neither really deserve the word creation--though THAT is truly semantics.

I agree I oversimplified that, but maybe you can agree that twisting the system so that you remove moist, you heat things up pretty bad & prevent rain from falling?

 

But I have to say, you seem to have a few...Not entirely baseless theories that you voice as if they were fact. Good imagination and everything, but I don't really think you should assume too much. No offense. Unless you take some then uhhh, not really much I can do.  :-\

None taken. I guess I can come on too strong.

About those 'not entirely baseless theories'; They aren't baseless at all.

I just don't explain them well, I guess.

People have a tendency to repeat the same ol' same ol' almost as a mantra.

If enough people say it, it becomes the truth.

 

But then, you could go re-read in a different light yourself.

 

And about that imagination, I consider that a compliment.

We wouldn't all be here if it wouldn't be for one man's incredible imagination.

 

“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination”

-- Albert Einstein

  :P

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Heres something to think about. People are debating whether or not the Dark One can create; well, look at the Gholam. It is a creation, not an amalgamation of two creatures. The fact that the Dark One didnt make it himself is irrelevant; anyone who thinks the Dark One can grant someone an ability that he cant use himself isnt thinking on the right lines. The Dark One CAN create no matter what people say. As already mentioned, there is also Shaidar Haran, who wasnt bred like other Fades-RJ made a comment about Shaidar Haran 0.5 confronting Jaichim Carridin and he said "the Dark One doesnt always get it right first time" or words to that effect.

 

As for earlier on as to the nature of the Wheel and the Dark One wanting to destroy it, this is how I see it. The Creator made the world, and made life, and then the Dark One decided he wanted it all to himself. So the Creator bound the Dark One within the tangled threads of life and made a Wheel which would guide the life threads to counter any move made by the Dark One. Effectively, in this theory, the Dark One is trapped within the Pattern, and every time he seeks to escape the Wheel directs the Pattern so that whatever needs to happen to stop the Dark One happens, ie Heroes rise and are reborn, people become Ta'veren, and so on. If the Dark One were to break free, he could use his power to destroy the Wheel-he is outside the Pattern now, so maybe the Wheel cant predict his next move at this point-so if he did destroy the Wheel, the Pattern would no longer be "the grand design" because nothing is controlling it-thus allowing any higher being in the vecinity to take the Wheels place and dictate history however he wants.

 

Its a bit of a stretch, but not that much compared to some theories on it Ive seen on here.

[vasu619]

I thought the shadowspawn were created by Aginor, and not directly by Shai'tan?

[Guest Dreadlord]

They were. Im saying that the creation of the Gholam specifically was created from nothing, as opposed to Trollocs, which is man and animal melded together. My point was that if Aginor can make a Gholam out of nothing, so can Shaitan-Aginor used the True Power to make the Shadowspawn, but Aginor didnt make Shaidar Haran. Obviously Shaitan can channel the True power, so Im guessing he used that himself to CREATE Shaidar Haran

[vasu619]

How do you know gholam were made out of nothing? They sound a lot like mutant humans to me. (Fantastic Four? :P)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Fair enough, I dont know they werent made out of nothing, but I cant believe they were made out of people like Trollocs. Saying that I havent read any of the none-main books so there may be more info I havent seen

[Hybrid]

It's one of my lovely little theories that Shaidar Haran is part of the creature that is Moridin. (there, I said it...)

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

[Mik]

It's one of my lovely little theories that Shaidar Haran is part of the creature that is Moridin. (there, I said it...)

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

Almost. Shaidar Haran & Moridin are one. He poses as Taim. :P

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Are people really starting to believe Shaidar is Moridin? I posted a theory on that a long time ago and nobody agreed with me

[Mik]

Are people really starting to believe Shaidar is Moridin? I posted a theory on that a long time ago and nobody agreed with me

I noticed it during my first re-read of the first. The whole deliberate myrddraal/Dark One/Ishy was confusing during my first read and I took the easy bait first time around. Second time everything fell into place, for me anyways. Got to love RJ; the master of red herrings & easy bait. ;)

 

I dunno how many years ago that is (I guess it was in '96/'97). But if you feel the same, heck, there is common ground between us! (Now, who would have thought!)

 

Post a link of that post of yours, please? I can't recall if I saw it or responded.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

[Luckers]

If this level of manipulation & altering can't be called creating, what can?

 

Let me put it differently then; what Shai'tan creates, he creates by removal solely.

 

Sure, he can put Slayer together, but that meant that the sum of what Slayer is, is much less then the individual parts.

Same can be said for all things Shai'tan; the less there is of creation, the more power he gets, simply by the fact that creation has less hold on it.

 

Shai'tan creates new things by uncreating parts of the old. By leaving stuff out.

 

No, i got what you were saying to begin with--sorry if it seemed i didn't.

 

But its not an accurate representation in any case. Yes, the Dark One seems to prefer destruction, but that does not limit his ability. Take Luc and Isam--both men seem to still be present in their entirety, and yet they are more than the sum of their parts. The Dark One joined them, yet also gave to them abilities beyond what either posessed prior to that moment. Or Fain--clearly he did some nasty destructive things to Fain, yet how can any of that explain Fain's ability to track Rand and the lads, or to resist Mordeth's attempt to dishouse his soul? Which particular part of Fain did the Dark One remove that created that specific ability?

 

And the meldings to create the shadowspawn do not represent removal only--irrespective, these creatures are more than the some of their parts. Neither humans nor bats have the ability to suck souls out through a kiss.

 

I get the ideal--many fantasy stories involve gods who are embodiements of ideals, and are bound by that ideal. The God of Destruction can only destroy. But the Dark One is no God of Destruction--he likes destruction, enjoys it, but he is not bound by that.

 

I disagree that the BLight is a 'thriving ecosystem'; it's a zone where life manages to cling to what little is left of it, twisted by the life-sucking touch of the Dark One. The Blasted Lands is the Blight's future if Shai'tan manages to get a bigger grip on the Wheel. Reality & life grow less and less from the border of the Blight to the center of Shayol Ghul, because the tighter it's grip, the more Shai'tan removes from it.

That's just my take on it.

 

I don't see how you can sustain that--by direct exposition in the books the blight has the most diverse and thriving range of species on the planet. It is described in tropical detail. Indeed--it is so invasive that it literally encroaches on other ecosystems in spite of vast ecological differences.

 

It may be filled with nasty, evil creatures--but its thriving nontheless. Direct from the books, my friend.

 

As for the Blasted Lands, i agree they are desolate of life--and yes, i'd say thats because the Dark One sucked the life out of those lands. They may even be the future of the Blight, though you have no evidence to suggest that, no comments that indicate they are encoaching on the Blight... but i still see no way you can claim that the Blight is what it is because its had the life sucked out of it. It's thriving with life.

 

I think the evidence is in the books. Nothing can destroy Heartstone. No power can harm it. Then perhaps the absence of power? The touch of the absence of anything?

Can you think of another way?

 

Sure, the Dark One literally has the strength to break the unbreakable. He's godlike, they can do stuff like that.

 

As I said, the idea that the Dark One is sucking the energy out of the seals is viable, but there is nothing that specifically supports it. The fact that the seals are breaking shows only that the seals are breaking. Myself I'd even say yours is the more likely reason--but don't confuse yourself as to what the books say. That you have a theory you think explains an event does not suggest that the event suggests your theory.

 

What do you mean there is nothing to support they are only half in reality?

They are not touched by wind. Wind is a metaphor for Time. The Wheel of Time is all of reality.

 

"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

 

“Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.”

 

Mirrors only show them as a blur. Why?

I think there's certainly more then enough to support it, let alone suggest it.

 

I mean it in the specific literal sense. There is nothing to suggest that they are half way between existence and non-existence--that wind does not touch them, and mirrors show them as a blur are all explained by the fact that they exist slightly out of phase with the rest of the world. A specific scientific reality, resulting from their genetics.

 

Your metaphor is innaccurate too--those winds were physically real--we even see them cause harm in KoD. That RJ used them as a hyperbolic lead in to the metaphysical reality of his world is clever writing, but proof of nothing.

 

Maybe. I like to think it can be found in the books.

 

I like to think Myrddraal are 'only' the human part of what was to become a Trolloc. How? Because the human part of their soul allowed channeling and somehow that severs the link made by Aginor with the True Power between the animal & human parts of what was to become a Trolloc. It's quite clear the 'True' & One Power repel eachother, so that could snap the link somehow. If the Trolloc was to become a male, The Human throwback-part develops & the part that is lost develops as ..errr.. 'nothingness'; the domain of Shai'tan.

 

Yes, they have some Human traits; half of them (what Aginor selected) & twisted by Shai'tan. They have a mind..half of it, the other half belongs to the Dark One. I don't dare call that a living mind. Especially since it takes a 'living mind' to channel:

 

That you like to think all that is by the very definition making it up. Nothing in the books sustains what you've said. You take a base point--the nature of myrdraal and trollocs--and wax lyrical about the causes, but none of those causes are actually suggested by anything.

 

Theorising is fine, I do it myself alot. But recognise it for what it is, don't state is as fact.

 

I mean, i feel bad, really because it was snappish of me to say what i said--but your claims which you so blithely stated as absolutes are completely unsupported. Oh, they cleave to most known facts in most senses, but nothing in those facts suggests what you've stated. It's like people going "Oh, that vulcano exploded. It looks angry. We must have angered it some how". All viable based on appearence, but that doesn't mean the initial incident suggests the answer which people gave it.

 

They have a mind..half of it, the other half belongs to the Dark One. I don't dare call that a living mind.

 

We know as a fact that Myrdraal have a specific sense of personality, including emotions, desires and a sense of self-preservation. By all methods of analysing intelligence, that provides it. They are distinct, if unpleasent, individuals.

 

And this is precisely why i make a point of it--you have no basis to say half their mind is the Dark One's, yet you use that as a basis to make comments about their state as a living mind--moreover, you use this theory of yours to contradict directly written facts about their personalities.

 

I think it's because they are not alive..or alive enough. I think the animal part is totally gone and this too is supported by the books; all Myrddraal look as though cast from the same mold. If each Myrddraal was 'contaminated' by animal genetics, why don't they show. A feather here.. a talon there..?

 

I agree that the books suggests that Myrdraal completely lack the animal genetics, for the same reasons as you've stated--that is indeed suported within the books. What isn't is the idea that they arn't alive because of it. I mean they are clearly twisted by the gentic reality, but again we've see direct examples of personality, emotion and self-preservation. Whatever else they are, they are living distinct individuals.

 

That's why vermin, ravens & Draghkar alike report to Myrddraal. (That's also straight from the books.)

 

No, it isn't. That vermin, ravens and (at times) draghkar report to Myrdraal is straight from the books, that your reason is the reason this happens is not. Nor is it suggested by any of that.

 

You think the fear caused by their gaze comes from the animal contamination?

Or is it human? I never saw it in a Trolloc...

 

No, my guess is that the fear effect comes from the presense of the True Power in their makeup--but thats a guess. And true or not, none of this makes any sort of suggestion about their nature, which is the point. You make huge leaps in your reasoning. It's unsustainable.

 

And why can't that mean that they are partly outside of reality?

The fact that they are "out of phase with the rest of the world" & wind cannot touch them, support my case, I think.

 

It can mean that they are partly outside of reality--likely does, in truth--but nothing in that supports your argument. Myrdraal are not entirely present in the world--wind, the movement of gasous molecules doesn't touch them, refracted electromagnetic waves are distorted by them. These are all functional realities of their existence--and we know that there are things that exist in the same time and space as the real world, yet beyond the perceptions of those that inhabit it--this is what the parallel worlds are.

 

That Myrdraal exist slightly outside the reality of the real world does not mean they are partially unreal--it means only that they exist slightly outside the reality of the real world.

 

I agree I oversimplified that, but maybe you can agree that twisting the system so that you remove moist, you heat things up pretty bad & prevent rain from falling?

 

Not really--i don't see the need to twist words with all that about the Dark One removing moisture to cause the drought. He might achieve the same end by simply manipulating the air currents to ensure the moisture went elsewhere--indeed we know this is what he did, since whilst Randland was in drought Seanchan was gripped by winter.

 

I was merely saying that i agree such action cannot be termed 'creating'. It was manipulating what was. But by that mark, nor was it 'removing' or 'destroying'.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Are people really starting to believe Shaidar is Moridin? I posted a theory on that a long time ago and nobody agreed with me

I noticed it during my first re-read of the first. The whole deliberate myrddraal/Dark One/Ishy was confusing during my first read and I took the easy bait first time around. Second time everything fell into place, for me anyways. Got to love RJ; the master of red herrings & easy bait. ;)

 

I dunno how many years ago that is (I guess it was in '96/'97). But if you feel the same, heck, there is common ground between us! (Now, who would have thought!)

 

Post a link of that post of yours, please? I can't recall if I saw it or responded.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,24249.msg751372.html#msg751372

 

I started a thread a while ago on Moridin being Shaidar. Looking back I remember some of my points didnt look as good written down as they did in my head but the idea is still there. Ishamael thought he was Ba'alzamon; why cant Moridin think he's a Superfade? There is evidence for it although it is sketchy, but NOTHING to prove it wrong.

[Mik]

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,24249.msg751372.html#msg751372

 

I started a thread a while ago on Moridin being Shaidar. Looking back I remember some of my points didnt look as good written down as they did in my head but the idea is still there. Ishamael thought he was Ba'alzamon; why cant Moridin think he's a Superfade? There is evidence for it although it is sketchy, but NOTHING to prove it wrong.

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,21833.msg566670.html#msg566670

My take in a nuttshell.

 

And no, it doesn't explain how it works well, but it's much nicer to find out by yourself..even if someone else gave a hint.

 

[Mik]

Christ Luckers!

You cost me the better part of my life in responces to your posts if you keep this up!  :D

En garde!  ;D

 

If this level of manipulation & altering can't be called creating, what can?

 

Let me put it differently then; what Shai'tan creates, he creates by removal solely.

 

Sure, he can put Slayer together, but that meant that the sum of what Slayer is, is much less then the individual parts.

Same can be said for all things Shai'tan; the less there is of creation, the more power he gets, simply by the fact that creation has less hold on it.

 

Shai'tan creates new things by uncreating parts of the old. By leaving stuff out.

No, i got what you were saying to begin with--sorry if it seemed i didn't.

 

But its not an accurate representation in any case. Yes, the Dark One seems to prefer destruction, but that does not limit his ability. Take Luc and Isam--both men seem to still be present in their entirety, and yet they are more than the sum of their parts. The Dark One joined them, yet also gave to them abilities beyond what either posessed prior to that moment.

I think the mistake you are making here is assuming Isam & Luc both are joined in Slayer 100%. From what I can see, they share one mind. Even though I also never saw that on-line the Mind is a very distinct part of a Thread. I usually only read stuff about Souls & Bodies... but the Mind is the third factor. Basically, if we could assume that Slayer was made up of just Isam and Luc, you could say Slayer is 5 (2 bodies, 2 souls ,1 mind) where Luc and Isam seperately were 6. Slayer has to choose which of the two he feels like being; He's not the two of them at the same time. They share eachother memories, because 'those never fade', but only one actually 'is' Slayer at any given time.

 

Also, Slayers connection to Perrin, Darkhounds/ wolves.. his TAR abilities..the reference to hunting and hounds in the dark prophesy.

I can't shake the feeling there could be more to Slayer then Luc & Isam in 'his' making. In the sense that somehow also a (part of a) wolf was used?

 

Or Fain--clearly he did some nasty destructive things to Fain, yet how can any of that explain Fain's ability to track Rand and the lads, or to resist Mordeth's attempt to dishouse his soul? Which particular part of Fain did the Dark One remove that created that specific ability?

I think Fain is a case in my favor;

Like you said, all we know of what Ba'alzamon did to Fain was distill his mind and feed him back a section that was 'relevant to the cause' more condensed.

Compare it to removing your ability to smell anything, but leave and gift-wrap the smell of manure. I'm betting you'd smell it really fast and develop a nose for it. ;)

Nothing was added to Fain. Parts that the Dark One figured irrelevant to Fains task (*sniff* out the Dragon) were removed. Condensing other parts of Fain is not creating, it's packing 'what is left behind' tightly together.

 

Mordeth is a 'creature' of creation. Mordeth needs 'things of creation' to replace with his evil. Mordeth cannot remove what is partly unmade & twisted by Shai'tan already. The part of Fain mind that Shai'tan distilled and fed back is beyond Mordeths reach thus preventing 'Fain' from completely being removed. That's why Fain can still feel where Rand is after all this time.

In essence, Mordeth his evil works by replacement (of what can be replaced; creation), while Shai'tans evil works by removal (of creation itself).

 

And the medlings to create the shadowspawn do not represent removal only--irrespective, these creatures are more than the some of their parts. Neither humans nor bats have the ability to suck souls out through a kiss.

Are you trying to tell me that the ability from a creature of the Dark One to remove someones soul & life is a case in your favour?

 

I don't know how a Draghkar is created exactly, anymore then you do, so don't ask me to explain the impossible please.  :)

You can't explain how a Draghkar is made either. I figure it's part human, part bat.. that could be all, but who knows.. there might be more creatures involved? Your guess is as good (or bad) as mine. There's just not enough to go by, while there is a lot more info on Slayer & Fain.

 

We do know they are constructed by 'twisting human stock' (now there's a nazi-term for ya!). But the very nature of what the effects of it's singing and the kissing, are the essence of what Shai'tan represents! Namely; removal of free will, surpressing thought & the removal of the soul and life.

The soul and then life itself are consumed. Removed. Poof.

 

And since I think Shai'tan is actually the absence of anything, how is it such a big leap to think that these creatures are (partly) humans carrying 'absence' in certain parts of their very being? They just carry it in different places then -say- the Myrddraal, for instance. That has different results.

 

I disagree that the BLight is a 'thriving ecosystem'; it's a zone where life manages to cling to what little is left of it, twisted by the life-sucking touch of the Dark One. The Blasted Lands is the Blight's future if Shai'tan manages to get a bigger grip on the Wheel. Reality & life grow less and less from the border of the Blight to the center of Shayol Ghul, because the tighter it's grip, the more Shai'tan removes from it.

That's just my take on it.

I don't see how you can sustain that--by direct exposition in the books the blight has the most diverse and thriving range of species on the planet. It is described in tropical detail. Indeed--it is so invasive that it literally encroaches on other ecosystems in spite of vast ecological differences.

 

It may be filled with nasty, evil creatures--but its thriving nonetheless. Direct from the books, my friend.

Sorry, my friend, but 'no'.

 

First off; tropical??

It's warm and damp alright, but a swamp was what it was compared to by characters in the book.

 

Straight from the books;

It was damp, Rand realized. It felt like the Mire in the depths of summer, back in the Two Rivers. In that boggy swamp every breath came as if through a wool blanket soaked in hot water. There was no soggy ground here—only a few ponds and streams, trickles to someone used to the Waterwood—but the air was like that in the Mire.

 

Second; thriving?

Come ON man. I can't believe I have to invest time in showing you -of all people- that the Blight is DYING.

"The Blight"... the name Jordan decided to give it, is like a clue you can not walk around, in and by itself. Don't make me quote a dictionairy please.

 

Straight from the books;

There were a few leaves now, on trees that were not evergreen. Rand reached out to touch a branch, and stopped with his hand short of the leaves. Sickly yellow [leaves] mottled the red of the new growth, and black flecks like disease....

 

...“Then we’re in the Blight?” Perrin said. Strangely, he did not sound frightened.

“Just the fringe,” Lan said grimly.

 

Straight from the books;

Mile by mile the corruption of the Blight became more apparent. Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion, but stained and spotted with yellow and black, with livid red streaks like blood poisoning. Every leaf and creeper seemed bloated, ready to burst at a touch. Flowers hung on trees and weeds in a parody of spring, sickly pale and pulpy, waxen things that appeared to be rotting while Rand watched. When he breathed through his nose, the sweet stench of decay, heavy and thick, sickened him; when he tried breathing through his mouth, he almost gagged. The air tasted like a mouthful of spoiled meat.

 

Straight from the books;

As the mountains drew closer, so did the true Blight. Where a leaf had been spotted black and mottled yellow before, now foliage fell wetly while he watched, breaking apart from the weight of its own corruption. The trees themselves were tortured, crippled things, twisted branches clawing at the sky as if begging mercy from some power that refused to hear. Ooze slid like pus from bark cracked and split. As if nothing truly solid was left to them [wow.. absence anyone??? another strong RJ hint], the trees seemed to tremble from the passage of the horses over the ground.

 

Straight from the books;

The Green Man had held back the Blight, but already the Blight was killing what he had made.

 

Thriving ..woot woot.

It's like saying Chernobyl is a thriving ecosystem because of the diversity of the mutations.

 

That the Blight contains twisted parodies of what life manages to produce, is not a manifestation of Shai'tans creative power. They are a result of Shai'tan removing life. It is creation clinging to this twilight-zone between nothingness & creation, that provides what strange life there is in the Blight mostly (shadowspawn aside). Else this place would be the Blasted Lands. And that would be Shai'tans direct work.

 

As for the Blasted Lands, i agree they are desolate of life--and yes, i'd say thats because the Dark One sucked the life out of those lands. They may even be the future of the Blight,...

Thats exactly what I'm saying...

 

... though you have no evidence to suggest that, no comments that indicate they are encoaching on the Blight... but i still see no way you can claim that the Blight is what it is because its had the life sucked out of it. It's thriving with life.

See quotes above. The life that IS present are what creation comes up with, twisted by the absence of elements needed for normal life. Not Shai'tan directly.

 

I think the evidence is in the books. Nothing can destroy Heartstone. No power can harm it. Then perhaps the absence of power? The touch of the absence of anything?

Can you think of another way?

 

Sure, the Dark One literally has the strength to break the unbreakable. He's godlike, they can do stuff like that.

Yeeeeaaaah riiight.

So, he needs humans to do the rest, right? I'f he so 'god-like' he can just break the strongest material around that creation can conjure up, then why is he still on the 'other side' of creation?

 

He can break it, because humans put it just in reach of his touch and that allows that he is unmaking them, tiny bit by tiny bit.

Over thet past three-thousand years. If he's so god-like, why not snap them in half when the Dragon placed them, instead of pumping all the power Shai'tan could pump through the minds connected to the focal points?

Because he -couldn't-.

 

As I said, the idea that the Dark One is sucking the energy out of the seals is viable, but there is nothing that specifically supports it.

What part about Heartstone (and thus the seals) being 'unbreakable by any power' is not a very specific clue.

That by itself is the biggest clue.

 

And the only and in fact easiest explanation is:

If no power can destroy Heartstone, it's only logic that the absence of any power can.

 

The fact that the seals are breaking shows only that the seals are breaking. Myself I'd even say yours is the more likely reason--but don't confuse yourself as to what the books say. That you have a theory you think explains an event does not suggest that the event suggests your theory.

This is trying to overcomplicate a very simple answer.

 

In this case, the exact opposite of Matter is Anti-Matter.

Power versus absence of that very phenominum.

 

As an essentially flawed analogy, but the concept might be easier to grasp;

If nothing opens a door by pushing, try pulling?

 

What do you mean there is nothing to support they are only half in reality?

They are not touched by wind. Wind is a metaphor for Time. The Wheel of Time is all of reality.

 

"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

 

“Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.”

 

Mirrors only show them as a blur. Why?

I think there's certainly more then enough to support it, let alone suggest it.

I mean it in the specific literal sense. There is nothing to suggest that they are half way between existence and non-existence--that wind does not touch them, and mirrors show them as a blur are all explained by the fact that they exist slightly out of phase with the rest of the world. A specific scientific reality, resulting from their genetics.

 

Your metaphor is innaccurate too--those winds were physically real--we even see them cause harm in KoD. That RJ used them as a hyperbolic lead in to the metaphysical reality of his world is clever writing, but proof of nothing.

I thought you were a writer..?

Since when could clever writing not be proof in fiction?

RJ tried very hard to keep some key cards up his sleeve to the very last, Luckers.

He doesn't want his readers to reach the peek of his mountain before he wrote about the view up there.

He wants his Tarmon Gai'don to be a series of "Gasp, WOW" moments.

The bad part is, that I feel that I'm them up for him by posting all this stuff.

Ah well, I've been silent for very very long.

I figured, "What better time then right before AMoL"?

 

With all those nasty long complicated words you used, you're really loosing me here and I don't have the time right now to try and figure out what you are trying to say.

 

Whatever else they are, they are living distinct individuals.

I removed a lot of text, because of the time I have left, but with this quote on Myrddraal is where I believe you go wrong.

 

Distinct individuals?

Myrddraal? You know, the creatures as if comming from the same mold over and over? The creatures where the word for one or a thousand is still the same; Myrddraal. There is no plural. Just singular.

You thought that was just for fun?

 

The [three] Myrddraal’s black swords rose as one; Trollocs boiled down the slope, thick, triumphant cries rising, catchpoles bobbing above as they ran.

…/ /…

Yet as if the ground were not rearing all around them, the Myrddraal moved forward in a line, their dead-black horses never missing a step, every hoof in unison. Trollocs rolled on the ground all about the black steeds, howling and grabbing at the hillside that heaved them up, but the Myrddraal came slowly on.

 

Alive?

Is that why they are Neverborn? Is that why they thrash around after they.. erm.. 'die'..?

 

Luckers. Seriously. Myrddraal are far from living individuals.

You thinking they are is where the rest of your arguments go wrong.

If memory serves me right, the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught the three damsels act in a way that suggests they aren't individuals at all.

 

Maybe the Borg share a resemblance somewhat; would you want to call a drone a distinct individual?

 

Myrddraal remind me of the demon Legion; 

(Mark 5:9:)

"And he asked him, What is thy name?

And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many"

 

You think the fear caused by their gaze comes from the animal contamination?

Or is it human? I never saw it in a Trolloc...

 

No, my guess is that the fear effect comes from the presense of the True Power in their makeup--but thats a guess. And true or not, none of this makes any sort of suggestion about their nature, which is the point. You make huge leaps in your reasoning. It's unsustainable.

:(

I think it's a shame you see it that way.

You mean "The so called True Power", right?

What you call 'huge leaps', I've read between the lines in the Wheel of Time.

You're stuck in your own mind.

 

There are no Aes Sedai. There is only the brilliant mind who made them up.

And he is a master of what he wrote is said about the Aes Sedai;

They do not lie, but the truth they tell you is not always the truth you think it is.

You don't give Robert Jordan enough credit for not reading between the lines enough.

 

You stopped looking where he expected everyone to stop looking. Where he knew everyone would stop.

Patterns within patterns.

 

And why can't that mean that they are partly outside of reality?

The fact that they are "out of phase with the rest of the world" & wind cannot touch them, support my case, I think.

It can mean that they are partly outside of reality--likely does, in truth--but nothing in that supports your argument.

In fact, it appeared to be an exact quote; Myrddraal are partly outside of Reality.

 

Again, the answer is really simple; what -by definition- lies outside Reality? Nothingness

Oh.. and Shai'tan, but he is the Father of Lies, A hollow promise of power; the Lord of Nothing.

Unless you believe him... and give Him (your) Power. Unless you let him tie that string to you.

Peoples faith in his existence, in his power gives him power.

 

Why do you think Shai'tan was found AFTER Elan Morin wrote his famous books in the AoL; a lot of people believing the words written by Elan Morin GAVE Shai'tan power. Enough power to be sensed beyond the borders of Reality. Or did you think RJ gave us those few lines about Elan Morin writing those books and the effect those had on certain groups for kicks?

They were the hidden clue to why Shai'tan could be sensed after all those years. At the very point where he was tied to Creation.

"Bound" if you will.

 

Unless you can come up with another decent explanation why after hunderds of years in a sophisticated society with millions of channelers around, all of a sudden Shai'tans "True" Power could be sensed?

 

Why do you think Ishamael made sure all his works from the AoL were destroyed? Because he didn't want humanity to find out the truth about the so called True Power? Shai'tans power does not stem from the Dark One; it comes from us believing in Shai'tans essence.

It all started with so many believing what Shai'tan represents, through Ishamaels written words; The "Dissembly of Reason" & the "Absence of Meaning". Enough people took the bait for "Shai'tans" Power to be felt from beyond the Pattern at a 'weak' spot. Why was it a weak spot? Because the thread there was connected to a Soul of Shadow; A thinner starting point of a Thread.

 

Humans decided to believe in Uncreation, as written by Elan Morin tedronai.

Humans decided the Power given to them wasn't enough when -all of sudden- another source of power could be sensed.

Humans opened Pandora's box & unleashed evil thoughts; 'a promiss of power'.

 

Guess at what point Shai'tan is bound to the Wheel? Guess where the Bore is?

How about where the Soul of the Dragon was spun into the Pattern?

That's why the Dragon is always there to confront the Shadow; his comming brings it.

The Dragon Soul is tied to the Soul of Shadow & that's what binds Shai'tan to the Wheel.

I'm betting my left kidney Lews Therin and/or Elan Morin was/were born on 'an island by a cool sea'.... We just haven't read it yet.

 

These are all functional realities of their existence--and we know that there are things that exist in the same time and space as the real world, yet beyond the perceptions of those that inhabit it--this is what the parallel worlds are.

 

That Myrdraal exist slightly outside the reality of the real world does not mean they are partially unreal--it means only that they exist slightly outside the reality of the real world.

If you are suggesting that a part of Myrddraal exists in parralel worlds, then I'd have to say you are dead wrong. Or are you suggesting that Shayol Ghul is partly in an if-world as well?

There is a mirror in Ishamaels 'TAR-room' at the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and guess how Rand saw himself when he looked in it when he first got there.

 

Don't guess, I'll tell you; blurred.

That's not because Shayol Ghul lies partly in an if-world, but because Shayol Ghul is the closest thing in our reality that connects to where Shai'tan resides; outside Reality.

 

A single mirror hung on the wall, but that was not ordinary at all. When [Rand] looked at it he saw only a blur where his reflection should have been. Everything else in the room was shown true, but not him.

Rand doesn't see himself in that mirror untill the Dark One knows him well enough to depict him. Untill then, the mirror only partially in Reality, showed someone who is fully in reality as a blur.

 

I agree I oversimplified that, but maybe you can agree that twisting the system so that you remove moist, you heat things up pretty bad & prevent rain from falling?

Not really--i don't see the need to twist words with all that about the Dark One removing moisture to cause the drought. He might achieve the same end by simply manipulating the air currents to ensure the moisture went elsewhere--indeed we know this is what he did, since whilst Randland was in drought Seanchan was gripped by winter.

 

I was merely saying that i agree such action cannot be termed 'creating'. It was manipulating what was. But by that mark, nor was it 'removing' or 'destroying'.

You know what. I'll concede that point. Manipulation it is. It's neither creating or destruction. Just messing it up.

 

 

Hey Luckers, here's a thought.

Why not entertain the idea that some of what I'm saying could be right for a minute or two. And see how you could help the argument...?

Just look at WoT in a different light for a change. Even if you feel it's foolishness right now.

We're both looking for the same answers... just from different angles..

 

And dammit man.. answering your posts is bad for my health!  ;)

 

We should join forces; not cross swords.

 

“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it”

-- Aristotle

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

pjew