Shivan the Hunter

[mb]

We seemed to have strayed away from this thread's topic.

I take the topic was meant to be who is (or will be) Shivan reborn.

 

Elayne's twins could be one candidate.  Rand's other children might be other candidates.

Melaine's twins to me would be out of the question since both are female (and Shivan is male).

 

Any other upcoming pregnancies in the books?

 

[LordoftheMorning]

In my opinion, the Dragon Banner was needed only to proclaim Rand to the world. If my memory is correct many things had to happen before the Last Battle. The banner fit that particular moment. In a normal situation I think the horn could be used without the banner.

[Majsju]

 

 

Any other upcoming pregnancies in the books?

 

 

Considering the size of Randlands population, and certain common behaviour in times like the ones in the books, probably a couple of thousand.

Nothing says that we will know who their parents are, or ever see them. After all, we have not seen Cain since he was reborn, and we were quite a bit more familiar with him than with the siblings.

[lordofsoup]

well technickly

eg. one of them could come from elayne and the other from Aviendha, they would technickly be brother and sister, because of Rand

 

@can the aiel first sister/brother ceremony make a man and woman brother and sister? cuz that could be where shivan and his sis come from

[Luckers]

How many times do you need to hear that 'the Dragon can ride out of TAR with the Dragon Banner when he hasn't been spun out'?

 

Alot more if you ever expect me to buy it. You want my reason go back to the first post you uttered it.

 

What makes you think the Heroes fight when there is no 'Shadow' to fight? When their reason for being tied to Horn & Wheel isn't even in this world.

 

In addition to what Maj said, because RJ directly stated that the Horn was used in the Age before the Age of Legends, when the Dark One was unknown.

 

And Mik, I said that this was the reason we know the Dragon need not be there for the Horn to work. The Dragon is spun pout to fight the Dark One, the Horn was used when the Dark One was unknown.

 

They are not some personal army anyone who toots that Horn can use, you know.

 

Actually that is precisely what they are.

 

Hawkwing does not hesitate; He feels he's being held back and asks the Dragon if he brought his Banner straight away. There is no hesitation whatsover and no uncertainty if he's asking for the right item.

 

I'm sorry mate, he does--and he hesitates specifically over what holds him. He goes to act, stops, is uncertain, then figures it out. It's specific to the moment.

 

Now that's absurd.

Hawkwing could not charge. "Something holds me"

What's personal about that?

 

The desire that they fly the banner--as i've said.

 

Same way my mate declares he simply cannot play without his favourite undies. Of course Hawkwing is slightly more dignified, but then he was the High King, and my mates a bit of a bogan.

 

Yeah right. When you say that 'something holds you' if you want to move, it doesn't have to do with how lovely you feel.

The Banner was a requirement to do battle. A symbol yes, but a necesary one nonetheless.

 

Actually, it quite frequently does have exactly to do with that. Belief and superstition are the core of soldiering. The Heroes ancient friend and leader was there, it was only proper that they follow his banner into battle. They were not bound to it by the Horn, but on a personal level, they felt the need.

 

So, you're saying Hawkwing was lying to the Dragon? You're saying the rest of the Heroes would let him lie? C'mon Luckers. You're the one making stuff up here.

 

Go re-read the thread Mik, I've explained this countless times. But the short answer is absolutely not. Hawkwing spoke the exact truth--something did hold him, and he felt a genuine compulsion to follow the banner and the Dragon--but it was a personal compulsion, not a literal one.

 

So, you go on and on about what 'must' must mean, but you can't accept that when Hawkwing says “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.”, that Hawkwing isn't making stuff up? Nothing is wrong? Nothing actually holds Hawkwing?

 

He could have just shut up and charged off the way he said he would a second ago?

 

Actually i completely accept what Hawkwing said--something very real did hold him, and something very real was wrong. Its your interpretation that I dismiss--more than dismiss, state as disproven.

 

And he could have just shut up and charged off--but he's as much a slave to his personality as anyone else.

 

What part about the Dragon being a Hero of the Horn do you not understand?

In the 1st Age, the Dragon rides out of TAR (how he was remembered) with his Banner (how it was remembered). Like Hawkwing rides out of TAR (how he was remembered) with the tool that marks him Hawkwing; Justice (how it was remembered).

What you are saying is plain wrong.

 

So, the horn is sounded, the heroes ride down, the hornsounder gives a command, and the Dragon laughs at him and leads them all off to get some doughnuts.

 

Don't you think something like that would be remembered? We have specific documented evidence that anyone can sound the horn including darkfriends, yet no one thought to make an annotation saying 'but, oh yeah, they didn't do what we wanted them to do'.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 03, 2008, 12:34:34 AM

And it wasn't a previous age, it was the age before the age of Legends. The First Age.

 

How isn't the 1st Age a previous age? You don't have to asnwer that... it's just clutter, like you stating it was used in the 1st Age (and hell, who knows how many Ages before that)

 

I was making the distinction that it wasn't just any previous age, that it was specifically the first age, the age before the age of legends--which is significant because we know as a fact that the Dark One was unknown in that age, and hence the Dragon did not wear the flesh.

 

And, by the by, it was RJ that stated that the Horn was used in the 1st Age. You see, thats what people who are serious about an idea do--they investigate, rather than just stating what they 'like to think' is the case.

 

The Horn was used in the First Age. The Dragon did not exist then, nor the banner. Moiraine directly states, in contradiction to everything she'd grown up to believe, that the horn could be sounded by anyone, thus showing that she had seen something pretty compelling--and oh yeah, nothing in Hawkwings comments actually require your interpretation to be correct.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 03, 2008, 12:34:34 AM

We have the confusing point--Hawkwings comment.

 

So it goes.

 

"We must follow the Dragon, and the Banner."

 

1. He meant it as an emotional impetus, a personal desire.

 

 

You are blissfully forgetting something held him again. That something was amiss.

Certain conditions -presept if you will- weren't met.

 

Umm... you do know what 'impetus' means, right?

 

All of the heroes have many names and have been spun out for multiple roles and many times. Except of course the dragon who is only spun out twice a turning to fight the DO right?

 

No, who knows how many times its necassary to fight the Dark One in the Turning of the Wheel. Perhaps there are even ages were he's spun out again and again--nothing says that the Dragon must only partake in appocalyptic battles--though the fact that he wasn't spun out during the entire course of the third age even with the three hundred years of the trolloc wars does suggest this.

 

But we know that the Dark One was unknown during the First Age.

 

Which of course is a direct contradiction to Hawkings comment about knowing LTT no matter what form he was in and having fought either with or against him many times. I guess it would still work if Hawking only saw LTT twice a turning, but I didn't get that impression by their talk (or the other heroes). The heroes all commented that LTT was always getting into trouble by having to save women. It to me sounded a heck of a lot more common than just when he was needed for stopping the DO.

 

Well again i doubt the 'twice a turning' thing--but consider, we arn't talking about one turning alone. How many turnings has the wheel made? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Birgitte references several turnings in her conversations with Elayne. And they are of the ones she can remember in the flesh. How many?

 

I agree about the familiarity, but i doubt it implies what you think.

 

And as mik pointed out there is no start or end to the WoT so there is no before because it all runs back into itself so saying the horn was made before the banner is completely ridiculous in the WoT timeline. Depending on which age you are looking at means you would have a different reference of what occured first. It is a real chicken or the egg world (Unless you go for the first, last, and balance point theory). At the current age it would appear the horn was before the banner, but if you go to teh age where the horn was actually made, the banner would of been made previously. Just remember for the horn to be made it must be destroyed at some point so it no longer exists when it is created again.

 

I'm not saying that the Horn was made before the banner, im saying that the horn was used in this turning during a time before the banner was made--in this turning.

 

Effectivelly, that the horn was used at a time when the banner did not exist.

 

Like it or not LTT was present in the earlier age when the horn was used. He at the very least would of been summoned by the call because he is a hero of the pattern.

 

The logic of that is idiotic (speaking of the binding the horn to the Dragon soul in that way, not your actual comment). Why make a weapon that can be circumvented by the bullet?

 

Sorry i dont see it. And i dont see a need for it. Hawkwing's comments are perfectly viable.

 

3. Hawking tries to charge but can't (note he doesn't not charge for sentimental reasons)

 

Umm, what? Thats precisely why he doesn't charge. He goes to begin the fight, but stops, realising on a personal level that something was missing--we know this because if what was missing was a necassary aspect of using the horn he would not have displayed any uncertainty in calling for it.

 

And of course its directly precluded by other evidence.

 

If the dragon is not needed by the horn, care to explain why the battle and the heroes actions were so dependant on what Rand did?

 

The same reason that images of Rand's fight with Ba'alzamon was blarred to Saldaea and Haddon Mirk. The Horn had made reality weaker, blurring TAR and the real world, and added to that Rand's ta'maral'ailen--the reality fuzzing effect of his ta'verenism--was effecting the area, and on top of all that the Wheel was pushing for a Dragon.

 

Let me ask you this, if that binding was due to Rand, why then did Ba'alzamon have a similar binding to the Seanchan? Why did the fight get broadcast in the sky at all?

 

 

[Valinthros]

I've read through this thread a couple times, and cant help but ask a few questions.  Before I do, I'd like to state some things that I think are important.

 

1)  Misinformation and misinterpretation of the _facts_ is a regular theme that RJ put into the books.  Some plot mechanisms seem to use that to great effect and advantage.  Ever feel like RJ fooled you?  Passed info that was a beleif for many years by one or another character, when in fact it was a complete fallicy or wasnt all the information.  Take, for instance, the agelessness.  Until it is discovered that the oath rod is the cause, everyone assumed that working with the power did this.  False.  This was even beleived by credible sources like, omg!, Moiraine.  Immagine that.

 

2)  Anyone see inside Hawkwings head?  No one, except RJ knew for certain what exactly Hawkwing was thinking, and what he said truly meant.  So, taking it as fact is false.  It's opinion.  I say something, you think it means this, someone else think it meant something different, so no and so forth.  The only fact that remains are the words.

 

Those things being the basis for what I'm going to type here, please remember that when replying.  I'd hate to have to restate as I've seen the same things from some of you in this thread.  Taking heresay like Moir's comments as fact, and even stating that those comments have a reliable source.  A book or something...  Prove it.  Which brings me to my first quote:

 

Added to the fact that it directly contradicts historical precedence, and the informed opinion of Moiraine which we know to have come from a viable source....

 

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?  She ask Hawkwing when we werent looking?  Or maybe RJ told her.  As an aside, with my example above, what records remain that catalogue the use of the horn?  Hmmm?  Unknown.  Refute it if you must, using that as a viable argument and basis for how the horn is supposed to work is in fact unfounded.  Which is to say, Hawkwings comments, taken literally, could definitely be true.  We just dont know.

 

Now, dont get me wrong.  I have a hard time beleiving that it works as Mik suggests.  Only because it doesnt make sense to me to create a thing like the horn and put those strictures on it.  At the same time, Hawkwings comments directly suggest this.  I cant refute that either.  So, gut feeling is that it doesnt work that way.

 

Maj - Thanks for the input and quotes.  It helped a bit to jog my memory on the horn, and what RJ said directly about it.  That being said:

 

Because of the Wheels very specific needs at this specific situation. Rand must proclaim himself the Dragon reborn, and the Wheel would have twisted his arm until it fell off to make sure he did.

If the Wheel can bind souls as Heroes, spit them out as heroes when there is need, it can definitly interfere with how they can act when the need is there.

 

I 100% agree with this.  The whole of the situation, the fight being broadcast, fight tied to Rand and Ishy, is as RJ stated an effect of the Pattern.  In theory, I doubt we could truly fathom the complete depths of a mechanism such as this.  Who knows, maybe the pattern spoke of The Banner to Hawkwing.  *whisper from the wheel*  "The banner you dope, THE BANNER!"

 

Speaking of which:

 

 

Hawkwing does not hesitate; He feels he's being held back and asks the Dragon if he brought his Banner straight away. There is no hesitation whatsover and no uncertainty if he's asking for the right item.

The only uncertainty is; Did the Dragon bring his Banner or not?

 

Well... he does hesitate.  Before stating that something is holding them back, Luckers is correct in that.  However, the sequence is relatively quick.  Which does suggest that the banner may have been one of those things that the dragon always went to battle with, since he named it without discussion.  This is a statement of opinion on my part.  Makes sense to me, however it might not make sense to others.  No basis in fact.  Which is to say, arguements against this have no basis in fact either. Nothing says specifically that he did not in fact always have the banner, or the equivalent.  Like the example of Hawkwing's sword Justice that was given by Mik.  It could be just that, the banner his 'talisman'.  *shrug*

 

I do agree with the pattern 'theory' on this one as well.  The pattern set the stage, and it could have been a one time deal.  *shrugs again*  We do not know with absolute certainty.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 03, 2008, 12:34:34 AM

Alot more if you ever expect me to buy it. You want my reason go back to the first post you uttered it.

 

I'm not sure you need to buy it Luckers.  You cant refute it absolutely either way, so this one's a moot point.  It is entirely possible that the horn will also call the Dragon.  Both sides of the coin are just opinion, as RJ never gave a difinitive list of who is bound to the horn.  What makes sense to you, or Mik, might not make sense to me.  I say it's possible, but I'm not saying that it's definite.  Call it on the fence.  Either way, neither of you (Mik or Luckers) can state as a fact for either direction.  Nowhere that I know of is it stated as fact that the dragon is or is not tied to the horn.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 03, 2008, 12:34:34 AM

The desire that they fly the banner--as i've said.

 

Same way my mate declares he simply cannot play without his favourite undies. Of course Hawkwing is slightly more dignified, but then he was the High King, and my mates a bit of a bogan

 

Except that the favorite undies urge isnt controlled by the pattern.  If it is in fact the 'desire' that each of the heroes have to fly that flag, singularly as one mind, well then...  You must be a mind reader.  You did ask Hawkwing if it was a desire that he cooked up, or if it was a stone cold requirement right?  You assume too much here Luckers.  That's the only reason I brought this up, not that I beleive you're incorrect or correct.  Just that you assume this as fact, when you cant prove one bit that it is.  Ex:  I must first log into my system in order to access the internet.  That's easily proven as fact.  I MUST HAVE MY CAPS LOCK ON TO TYPE.  That's all I said.  Well, maybe that was a desire to type with caps and annoy the hell out of someone, but it also may be that I cant type unless my caps lock is on because my keyboard is hozed.  You just dont have enough info Luckers.  The same goes for Mik.  Though it makes more fundimental sense that he spoke in a literal sense, and I like the idea that he could not move forward without that specific item and it was not desire.  However, the pattern is the reason behind that.  That is my belief.  They are directly tied to the pattern, why not change the rules when the pattern desires?  Make them do as it wishes.

 

So, that's my take on things, personally.  I havent solidified how the horn truly works, whether a darkfriend can use it or not.  Especially with the intrusion of the pattern on things.  Who knows, maybe the whole horn control bit is conjecture.  Not a soul was alive before Mat blew the horn that has any factual evidence on how it did work.  We have one instance, we can take that as fact.  Everything else besides RJ's words are heresay.  Unfounded.  ;)

 

*edited for unneeded quote content mistakes*

[Mr Ares]

1) Take, for instance, the agelessness. Until it is discovered that the oath rod is the cause, everyone assumed that working with the power did this. False. This was even beleived by credible sources like, omg!, Moiraine.

As far as Aes Sedai know, they are the only people who work intensively with the Power over a long period. They are also the only ones to develop the Agelessness. That they think the two are linked is not unreasonable. But everyone believes the Heroes only serve the good guys, not the Shadow. For Moiraine to state as fact something which is directly contradictory to what everyone else knows means she is not bound by the Oaths (which we know she is) or she has reason for believing this true. So she must have a reason for believing it to be true. This is simple fact. How else could she state as true something which contradicts what everyone else knows? She couldn't. She must have a reliable source.

 

2) Anyone see inside Hawkwings head?  No one, except RJ knew for certain what exactly Hawkwing was thinking, and what he said truly meant. So, taking it as fact is false. It's opinion. I say something, you think it means this, someone else think it meant something different, so no and so forth. The only fact that remains are the words.

True enough. But there is more evidence than just Hawkwing's words. Taken in isolation, Mik's and Fryn's answer is as valid as Majsju's or Luckers's. But these words do not exist in a vacuum. There are other sources, such as Moiraine and RJ, and they disprove certain otherwise viable theories. Mik's and Fryn's opinions do not take all the evidence into account. That other evidence disproves this theory. It is no longer viable. It doesn't work. Opinions are fine in the absence of facts, but the facts prove this wrong. This is not an agree to disagree situation. This is a YOU ARE WRONG situation. The only problem now is battering it into the skulls of those who still struggle to comprehend this simple fact. Case proven. Not opinion. Fact.

 

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?

We do not know, but the fact she was able to say something in direct contradiction to the facts as everyone else understands them, and do so as stating a fact, not mere supposition, means such a source must exist, or Moiraine was lying. And we know she can't lie. We do not know what the source was, but we know from how she said it that she must have one. Simple fact. Not opinion. If your opinion disagrees, your opinion is worthless. She had a source. Fact. This has been explained. Earlier in the thread.

 

At the same time, Hawkwings comments directly suggest this.

Hawkwings comments suggest themselves to more than one possible explanation. Moiraine's comments rule out Mik's. Fact.

 

Well, maybe that was a desire to type with caps and annoy the hell out of someone

Something more annoying than caps lock: idiots who refuse to read the arguments in a thread, or fail to understand those arguments when stated clearly. I find such very rude, and tend not to react well to it.

 

I know some of the following has been addressed, but sometimes you really have to batter things into the heads of the hard of understanding.

I think it's really funny how you use the fact that Hawkwing can't charge without the banner flying' date=' as a reason he didn't know he needed it! If he didn't know, he wouldn't have asked for it the moment after he felt he was held and he never ever would have guessed he needed a banner![/quote']Why would he try to move without the banner if he knew he needed it? How do his words rule out a desire for the banner?

 

That they always need the banner of any incarnation of the Dragon is without any basis in fact.

How so?

Because there are no facts to support it always being needed. Or ever being needed. The only facts could indicate it was wanted, and say nothing to any previous calling. And the Heroes will follow a Darkfriend. Fact. So either the Darkfriend has a magic banner or they'll go without it.

 

That he would come with the last remembered banner,.../ /..is without basis in fact.

But it is implied by how the Heroes themselves show up.

No. Hawkwing comes with a weapon, not a banner, and I'm sure he had one of them in life (these leader types tend to). Birgitte came with the weapons they are know for. So why does the Dragon come not with the weapon that he's known for, but the banner? Why not both? Or neither? Or just a sword? There is no indication he always has a banner.

 

That they always need the Dragon is without basis in fact.

Considering all of the quotes below & considering the fact that Hawkwing did specifically ask the Dragon for his Dragon Banner, gives it a strong basis.

No, it doesn't. That they might prefer to ride under the Dragon's banner is a viable interpretaion of those words. That they will follow a Darkfriend implies either that said Darkfriend would have the banner, or that the Dragon was a Darkfriend. Or that no banner is necessary.

 

What do the Heroes always fight?

I don't know. Is there something they always fight?

Why are they Bound to the Wheel?

As a means of correcting the drift of the Pattern. Fighting the Shadow is a part of that, but not the whole.

Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

What's your point? The Dragon is always a rebirth of the previous Dragon. So if a banner was needed, it would always be the banner of the previous Dragon. Or if that Dragon called the Heroes, they wouldn't be able to act. And when called by the Horn, he would come with a different banner, so the Heroes would fight under a different banner. So there is nothing important about the banner. Either there is nothing important about the banner, and it can change, or there is and it can never change, because that banner will not be the magic one the Heores follow.

The Soul alone does not a Dragon make, Mr Ares. Smiley

Yes, it does.

Lews Therin is the Dragon this time around.

No. Rand is. You have read the series, you should know the main characters name.

Just because the banner can have a different shape/ form/ drawing/ whatever, makes it less then the Dragon Banner?? No way!

So the banner can be a different size, shape, design, material, colour, anything, in fact, all that matters is that there is a banner. It can be any banner, there just has to be one, and it doesn't matter which. I would go further. There is no constant need for a banner, although there may be a need on occasion. So I was right, there is nothing about the banner that is important, aside from the importance of banners in general as symbols. So there is nothing important about the Dragon banner in and of itself. It is not magic, it is not needed to command men or Heores reborn from legend. It is just a piece of cloth, but a piece of cloth that represents Rand, and it's importance is nothing inherent in the banner, but in who the banner represents. The banner is unimportant. They can go without.

Fact; the Heroes of the Horn are bound to the Horn & Wheel, because of their mission is to 'fight the Shadow' as per Brigittes words (anyone out here still believes they will follow a darkfriend into battle??)

No, the Heroes are bound as part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism, only part of which is the fight against the Shadow, and it is clearly stated that they will follow a DF, by someone who cannot lie, and is stating a fact in direct contradiction to what everyone knows, and therefore must have some backing, and so is true, unless we have a damn good reason to disagree with her, and no-one has provided a reason for us to do so, therefore it stands.

Fact; The Horn was used once in the books. And that one time, is all we have to go by.

Not quite. It was used once but that use does not stand isolated from all other facts in the series, or all other sources. Other things relate to the Horn beyond that one sounding, and we have those things to go on as well.

Fact; That one time, Hawkwing said "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon"

Right.

Fact; Hawkwing didn't just say that for dramatic effect; he couldn't advance without that banner flying.

Wrong. That is an opinion. You need to learn to distinguish the two. It is not a fact. It may be a viable interpretation, but it is not the only one. Opinion.

Fact; Hawkwing specifically asks for the banner straight away when he notices 'something holds him'.

No-one is disagreeing with that.

Fact; There are precepts to being a Hero of the Horn 'as strong as law'

Nor that.

Fact; LTT's Banner was stored at the Eye due to foretelling; it has a role to play somewhere.

Yes, announcing Rand as the rebirth of LTT. He is LTT reborn, he has LTT's titles, he uses his banner. It is to establish himself as the rebirth of LTT, the Dragon Reborn, in the eyes of those who follow him, it is to symbolise the Lord Dragon, that is its purpose. And it is being fulfilled.

Fact; The Dragon Banner was stored together with the Horn of Valere.

Yes, and Rand had need of both. But that is not to say they had need of each other.

Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence? Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

This forum exists, but does it have a right to? Legally, yes, but this is not a question of legality. People have a lot of opinions, many uninformed, many stupid, many outright destructive. Was Hitler entitled to his views on the Jews? If so, was he entitled to express his opinions? Was Stalin entitled to a belief that a million deaths is just statistics? Are people allowed these opinions? Should they be?

 

Basis for one time only requirement:

Moraine's statements

RJ statement that it was used in a previous age before the AoL.

 

Basis for always needing the banner/dragon:

Hawkings statements

The actual fight.

Corrected version follows:

Basis for one time only requirement:

Moraine's statements,

RJ statement that it was used in a previous age before the AoL,

Hawking's statements,

The actual fight.

 

Basis for always needing the abnner/dragon

Hawkings statements

The actual fight.

The two points to support you do no more to support you than they do to support us. You have no evidence that cannot be interpreted to support our arguments. However, we have points you lack. You have no evidence, we do. We are right. Fact.

That isn't a person feeling that 4 at once is odd.

I wasn't disputing that. She will have four at once and something will be odd about them. But there is still a requirement for four babies at once.

 

Hawkwing could not charge. "Something holds me." What's personal about that?

Depends what's holding him. If he were held by personal desire' date=' then that would, by definition, be very personal.

So, you're saying Hawkwing was lying to the Dragon? You're saying the rest of the Heroes would let him lie? C'mon Luckers. You're the one making stuff up here.

No-one is saying Hawkwing lied. Saying that Luckers is saying that means either you are using a strawman or you don't understand his point. Which is it? The truth you read wasn't the truth you thought you read.

So, you go on and on about what 'must' must mean, but you can't accept that when Hawkwing says “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.”, that Hawkwing isn't making stuff up? Nothing is wrong? Nothing actually holds Hawkwing?

Something does. What that something is is the question. And personal desire is a viable interpretation. That it is a viable interpretation is fact. That it is the only viable interpretation may not be, but there is nothing to rule out this interpretation in what you are quoting. Simple fact.

Emotional and personal desire are factors you invented.

Luckers invented emotional desire? Good going, man. If you are just referring to the series, I should remind you that just as Luckers has invented emotional and personal desire, so you have invented physical necessity. How is that any different?

 

Except of course the dragon who is only spun out twice a turning to fight the DO right?

Wrong.

And as mik pointed out there is no start or end to the WoT so there is no before because it all runs back into itself so saying the horn was made before the banner is completely ridiculous in the WoT timeline.

No' date=' it isn't.

if you go to teh age where the horn was actually made, the banner would of been made previously

Different banner. If there was another banner.

1. Heroes called.

2. Heroes chit chat

3. Hawking tries to charge but can't (note he doesn't not charge for sentimental reasons)

4. Hawking asks for the banner, and states they follow banner/dragon

5. Heroes fight

6. The fight is 100% dependant on Rand's fight with ishy (If rand loses the battle is lost... note the heroes on their own in this fight will not mean success) - This ties directly into to the heroes must follow the dragon.

1 is right, 2 is right, 3 is right up until the brackets which contain some crap made up by you and Mik, 4 and 5 are right, 6 is ppartly right, given that the fight is dependant upon the actions of both Rand and Ishy, so the sides are dependant on both men.

If the dragon is not needed by the horn, care to explain why the battle and the heroes actions were so dependant on what Rand did?

The Wheel was making sure everyone knew the Dragon was reborn. Not the Horn. You do know the difference between the two, don't you?

[Swigaro]

“You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

 

This has always struck me as a specific situational condition.  If the horn is blown and the Dragon Reborn is hanging around trying to convince himself that he isn't really the Dragon, of course Arthur Hawkwing is going to tell him to pull out the banner and quit avoiding his destiny.  It has less, I think to do with some involved safeguard system to keep the horn from being misused, and more to do with forcing Rand to accept his destiny, in this specific moment.  I could be mistaken (as it has been a while since my last re-read) but is this not the first time that Rand truly accepts who he is?  Someone looks him dead in the face and says, "You are the Dragon Reborn," and he effectively (by unfurling the banner) says, "yes I am."  That is why the battle with Ishamael took place in the sky.  That is why said battle was broadcast all over the land so that the other active false dragons could be thrown down.  As I see it, this is the pattern, using the horn to force Rand to accept his destiny.  As it has been quoted, numerous times, the horn was blown in the age before the age of legends, when there was no Dragon and no knowledge of the Shadow.  Yes, we can assume that the Dragon and his Banner could have been present, but until the horn is blown again, it is only speculation.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I would have to agree with the Banner being just a situational thing. This was the first time that the Dragon was shown to the masses. It was also the first time that Rand openly accepts that he is the Dragon. Hawkwing making him realize this makes him not only battle Ishy over Falme, but also sends him on the the journey for Callandor. That way either Moraine and the Heroes of the Horn are right, Rand is the Dragon, or Rand will fail and prove he is not. We all know what happens after that.

[a pale tanned lover]

I know i'm jumping into a heated topic, but i only wanted to put this forward, many believe that the horn can be used by either side so what if it's blown and the Dragon is there one of the conditions for them to fight is he also has to have the banner,last battle etc, that would explain for what happened at Falme, would also explain why it had been blown before and why the Dragon's soul has been spun out many times before but not always as the Dragon and not JUST to fight the DO. Thats just my thought so you can rip it too pieces if you disagree but it seems a logical solution to an arguement that both sides are right.......................

[Fryn]

I think several people missed why I asked that question about the dragon only being present twice a turning if he is there to only prevent the DO. Many of the posts in this thread say the dragon could not have his banner if he wasn't out yet. However that is only if the dragons only purpose is to fight in the big battles between the DO. By definition that is limited to 2 - 3/4ish times a turning of the wheel. The heroes have been shoved out many times, and it would be odd if the dragon is so restricted. Bridgette can remember multiple lifetimes since the formation of the tower for example, and the discussion with the heroes and Rand make it appear as if they have fought in many many lives with lots of diferent names.

 

This is why it is important though. At least 1 age has no humans, so no DO (at the very least no dragon =p)

At least one has no knowledge of Saidin/Saidar, so again most likely no DO

The AoL had the dragon spun out once if his only goal is to fight the DO

This age has only had Rand if his only goal is to fight the DO

The age before AoL didn't have the DO

 

So out of 5 ages there have only been two dragons that fight the DO

 

Add to that that the age after this will likely not have to deal with the DO because he will be sealed by rand. That is 2 out of 6 ages with a dragon fighting the DO. Which leaves a whole one age where we aren't sure if the DO is present so would then have the dragon. That just seems really limiting when you consider how many times a hero like bridgette is spun out, and how many times the the dragon soul has gotten in trouble over women (based on the discussion with the heroes). So if the dragon is used for more than just fighting the DO then he would also have a banner for other times he is spun out not to fight the DO, and it is not that unexpected that it "might" have such a restriction placed onto it. Keep in mind that the horn needed to be made in an age where people understood the heroes of the pattern. So it is not unexpected that the horn would be made with restrictions based on a hero that they know is tied to the horn. The horn was made by people after all; it wasn't spat out by the pattern itself.

 

Especially given that the horn has not been blown that often. Out of 4 ages we know it will be blown 3 times (AoL, current age, Age when we know it was blown when the DO wasn't present, and age with no humans) At TG, at Falme, and whereever it was blown in the age prior to AoL. That leaves only 3 ages where we do not know if or when it was blown. However at somepoint the horn needs to be created, so at somepoint the horn needs to be destroyed; which means in some of those remaining 3 ages it might not even be present so it can't be blown.

 

That of course is whether the dragon is only brought out to fight against the DO and only twice per cycle. We know that in some of the ages there are no humans, and in some there is no power. So that is 2 of the 7 ages that would not have the dragon if he was only there to fight the DO. The DO was not present in the age before the AoL, and was not present when the horn was made (this is likely the same age). In the AoL he was present and in teh current he has been present once, and TG is likely the end of this current age. So far if the dragon only comes out to face the DO he is only present 2 times out of 5 ages. It is unlikely that the DO is present in the age following.

 

Edit: There are actually ages not a single age where people do not know about channeling. Which takes away one of the question mark ages. At least if you consider it is unlikely that humans would fight off the DO without access to the power. This puts it to 2 ages out of 7 where the dragon would fight the DO, which as I said seems very unlikely. It would be better to think of a bunch of the heroes that always seem to get themselves into trouble over a woman given teh reference teh heroes use when they are called.

[Mr Ares]

Thats just my thought so you can rip it too pieces if you disagree but it seems a logical solution to an arguement that both sides are right......

Not logical, fallacious. Just because I say black and someone else says white doesn't mean the answer is grey. It can just be that I am right. As it is, we know the Heroes will follow a DF if one should blow the Horn. This is fact. Any theory on the topic must take this into account. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed., as opposed to sometimes needed or desired. All this is fact.

 

So if the dragon is used for more than just fighting the DO then he would also have a banner for other times he is spun out not to fight the DO.

NO. NO. NO. This is opinion stated as fact. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed. So why would he have this banner in these other Ages? He might have a banner, he might not, and this would have nothing to do with the Heroes, and everything to do with the hearts and minds of real, living men and women.

[Luckers]

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?  She ask Hawkwing when we werent looking?  Or maybe RJ told her. As an aside, with my example above, what records remain that catalogue the use of the horn?  Hmmm?  Unknown.  Refute it if you must, using that as a viable argument and basis for how the horn is supposed to work is in fact unfounded.  Which is to say, Hawkwings comments, taken literally, could definitely be true.  We just dont know.

 

I stated directly why i thought Moiraine's comment significant. Yes, Aes Sedai are given to assuming things and stating them as the truth--especially in relation to the Power.

 

However, the widespread belief was that the Horn could only be sounded by the Light, and that the Heroes would only serve the Light. This wasn't the popular opinion, it was the only opinion, so inbred into society that it wasn't questioned.

 

Moiraine grew up with this belief, yet she encountered something that not only made her question this fundemental belief, but changed her opinion to a degree that she felt comfortable, bound by the oaths, stating her new opinion as fact.

 

Aes Sedai are untrustworthy specifically because of their arrogance in their personal opinions--this was a contradiction of Moiraine's personal opinons, and that speaks for itself.

 

In short though the significance is not in the proclaimed source, but rather in Moiraines reaction to it.

 

I'm not sure you need to buy it Luckers.

 

In direct response to a comment stating "How many more times do you need to hear blah blah blah..."?

 

My answer remains as it was then, "ALOT more."

 

Valinthros, try not to preach before you read. It never ends well.

 

Except that the favorite undies urge isnt controlled by the pattern.  If it is in fact the 'desire' that each of the heroes have to fly that flag, singularly as one mind, well then...  You must be a mind reader.  You did ask Hawkwing if it was a desire that he cooked up, or if it was a stone cold requirement right?  You assume too much here Luckers.

 

And you don't read before you post. I stated directly that there are two potential interpretations of Hawkwngs comment--and that, in a vacuum each are viable. I then went on to state that in light of the additional information--the implications from Moiraine's quote and RJ's--that deductively we can settle on the fact that Hawkwing was speaking personally, not functionally when he called for the banner.

 

That's the only reason I brought this up, not that I beleive you're incorrect or correct.  Just that you assume this as fact, when you cant prove one bit that it is.  Ex:  I must first log into my system in order to access the internet.  That's easily proven as fact.  I MUST HAVE MY CAPS LOCK ON TO TYPE.  That's all I said.  Well, maybe that was a desire to type with caps and annoy the hell out of someone, but it also may be that I cant type unless my caps lock is on because my keyboard is hozed.  You just dont have enough info Luckers.

 

Go read the thread--lecture me when your informed. Then perhaps we can have a discussion.

 

I know i'm jumping into a heated topic, but i only wanted to put this forward, many believe that the horn can be used by either side so what if it's blown and the Dragon is there one of the conditions for them to fight is he also has to have the banner,last battle etc, that would explain for what happened at Falme, would also explain why it had been blown before and why the Dragon's soul has been spun out many times before but not always as the Dragon and not JUST to fight the DO. Thats just my thought so you can rip it too pieces if you disagree but it seems a logical solution to an arguement that both sides are right.......................

 

Technically as far as we know the Dragon has never been spun out when the Dark One hasn't been there to fight--indeed, the fact that he wasn't spun ou once in the four thousand yeas beteen the War of the Shadow and now supports that.

 

Many of the posts in this thread say the dragon could not have his banner if he wasn't out yet.

 

I hope you arn't referring to mine, because i never said that.

 

However that is only if the dragons only purpose is to fight in the big battles between the DO.

 

Again, given that he was only spun out twice in the last four thousand years, and both in times when fighting the Dark One, i'd say its a fair guess.

 

By definition that is limited to 2 - 3/4ish times a turning of the wheel.

 

How's that in the definition? For all we know there are ages where the Dark One is constantly active and the Dragon is spun out hundreds of times

 

At least 1 age has no humans, so no DO (at the very least no dragon =p)

 

Umm, which age would that be?

 

This is why it is important though. At least 1 age has no humans, so no DO (at the very least no dragon =p)

At least one has no knowledge of Saidin/Saidar, so again most likely no DO

The AoL had the dragon spun out once if his only goal is to fight the DO

This age has only had Rand if his only goal is to fight the DO

The age before AoL didn't have the DO

 

So out of 5 ages there have only been two dragons that fight the DO

 

Thats not five ages, its three. The one with no knowledge of the Power and the one befoe the AOL is the same age, and there was no age with no humans--at least not by  RJ's comments.

 

Add to that that the age after this will likely not have to deal with the DO because he will be sealed by rand.

 

Yes, because that stopped him after LTT did it--of course you may be implying that Rand will do it better, even completely, in which case its just lucky that two channelers couldn't undo all that if they chose--oh wait, didn't Mierin and Beidomon do that?

 

That just seems really limiting when you consider how many times a hero like bridgette is spun out, and how many times the the dragon soul has gotten in trouble over women

 

Except, again, as i stated, the Heroes remember many turnings of the wheel.

 

Out of 4 ages we know it will be blown 3 times (AoL, current age, Age when we know it was blown when the DO wasn't present, and age with no humans) At TG, at Falme, and whereever it was blown in the age prior to AoL.

 

It was never blown during the Age of Legends.

 

However at somepoint the horn needs to be created, so at somepoint the horn needs to be destroyed; which means in some of those remaining 3 ages it might not even be present so it can't be blown.

 

Assuming everything isn't reset at each turning of the wheel, or that things don't survive between turnings... Either way i see no relevance?

 

Edit: There are actually ages not a single age where people do not know about channeling.

 

Oh? Evidence?

 

 

[Fryn]

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?  She ask Hawkwing when we werent looking?  Or maybe RJ told her. As an aside, with my example above, what records remain that catalogue the use of the horn?  Hmmm?  Unknown.  Refute it if you must, using that as a viable argument and basis for how the horn is supposed to work is in fact unfounded.  Which is to say, Hawkwings comments, taken literally, could definitely be true.  We just dont know.

 

I stated directly why i thought Moiraine's comment significant. Yes, Aes Sedai are given to assuming things and stating them as the truth--especially in relation to the Power.

 

However, the widespread belief was that the Horn could only be sounded by the Light, and that the Heroes would only serve the Light. This wasn't the popular opinion, it was the only opinion, so inbred into society that it wasn't questioned.

 

Moiraine grew up with this belief, yet she encountered something that not only made her question this fundemental belief, but changed her opinion to a degree that she felt comfortable, bound by the oaths, stating her new opinion as fact.

 

Aes Sedai are untrustworthy specifically because of their arrogance in their personal opinions--this was a contradiction of Moiraine's personal opinons, and that speaks for itself.

 

In short though the significance is not in the proclaimed source, but rather in Moiraines reaction to it.

 

Looking at various characters this is not limited to just Morraine, but several of the AS. So it is not a universal belief with the AS, and Morraine isn't an odd duck out. HTe AS as a whole believe a lot of things that aren't correct.

 

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

This QoTW however basically states that any documents Morraine would of read would of been changed so badly that only the base facts might be real. Her comment doesn't hold much wieght because you would have to go back past the Age of Legends for actual correct information. In an age that understood enough about the pattern and the heroes to bind them to a horn. That is long period of time for a document to survive. I think the most similar would be the book of Judas which contradicts most of the bible, but that is only 2000 years old and we are talking about a much longer difference in time. And at the same time in other threads you have mentioned that AS have forgotten and have no knowledge of male/female linking which was only 3000ish years prior which was a fact of the time, unlike the myth of the horn which was seem as a fansy and not reality at the time of the breaking.

 

 

Many of the posts in this thread say the dragon could not have his banner if he wasn't out yet.

 

I hope you arn't referring to mine, because i never said that.

 

Nope just the general thread. Some seem to think this is proof that it isn't a requirement

 

However that is only if the dragons only purpose is to fight in the big battles between the DO.

 

Again, given that he was only spun out twice in the last four thousand years, and both in times when fighting the Dark One, i'd say its a fair guess.

 

Technically we have no proof that he was not spun out inbetween the two, but it does seem likely that he wasn't

 

By definition that is limited to 2 - 3/4ish times a turning of the wheel.

 

How's that in the definition? For all we know there are ages where the Dark One is constantly active and the Dragon is spun out hundreds of times

 

I thought you were saying big battles only where the DO is sealed or partially sealed away. Or are you saying the dragon would have to seal the DO away hundreds of times in a single age

 

At least 1 age has no humans, so no DO (at the very least no dragon =p)

 

Umm, which age would that be?

 

I recall it posted on the board before, but I couldnt find it in the QoTW. However the WoT series is based on Earth. RJ points this out many times. And I would guess that would be the age of the dinosaurs. For that matter there would also be the age of formation were there was no life or only single cell organisms. So depending on how you treat it that would be 1 or 2 ages without humans (note the museum has a skeleton of a dinosaur so we know they existed in WoT). I never knew the source, but going off of WoT based on our planet it makes sense.

 

This is why it is important though. At least 1 age has no humans, so no DO (at the very least no dragon =p)

At least one has no knowledge of Saidin/Saidar, so again most likely no DO

The AoL had the dragon spun out once if his only goal is to fight the DO

This age has only had Rand if his only goal is to fight the DO

The age before AoL didn't have the DO

 

So out of 5 ages there have only been two dragons that fight the DO

 

Thats not five ages, its three. The one with no knowledge of the Power and the one befoe the AOL is the same age, and there was no age with no humans--at least not by  RJ's comments.

 

 

I have posted this above. The WoT series is based off of our planet. And unless you believe the multiple million of years prior to humans don't deserve an age it is pretty realistic. As is posted by the quote below there are multiple ages without knowledge of the power. So dinosaurs (At least), 2 ages without knowledge of power (at least), AoL, current age, and post age.

 

So that is 2 dragon souls in 5 ages and likely no DO in the next age. It is most likely that Rand will seal the Do off because that is what has to happen. For the bore to be drilled it has to be sealed again before the wheel turns around. This is what the professor was working on. You can add the various fortellings that this will happen. It is posible that the Dragon soul will need to fight the DO multiple times in the last 2 ages, but I find it rather questionable in the age following the current one. That is completely my opinion, but it would still limit 2 dragon souls to 5 of the 7 ages.

 

Add to that that the age after this will likely not have to deal with the DO because he will be sealed by rand.

 

Yes, because that stopped him after LTT did it--of course you may be implying that Rand will do it better, even completely, in which case its just lucky that two channelers couldn't undo all that if they chose--oh wait, didn't Mierin and Beidomon do that?

 

You mean 2 channelers that worked on the massive airbourne platform at the peak of a peaceful age with only progress and no conflict, and channeled a massive amount of power right? coming out of an age that saw nothing but war, and going into another age with war (nicola's fortelling)? I find it rather unrealistic, unless it is at the tail end of the age. It could happen, but I am guessing the next age won't forget the DO and would stop any attempts to get him back

 

That just seems really limiting when you consider how many times a hero like bridgette is spun out, and how many times the the dragon soul has gotten in trouble over women

 

Except, again, as i stated, the Heroes remember many turnings of the wheel.

 

Actually no. Bridgette is forgetting most of her old lifetimes. When she is first dropped out she remembers more than later on when she is getting worried about never seeing Cain again until Min comforts her. However at that point she still remembers many lifetimes between the trolloc wars and the present time. And at one point she mentions that she only remembers her lives up until the formation of the tower and again she is talking about many lifetimes and not 1 - 2 since then.

 

Out of 4 ages we know it will be blown 3 times (AoL, current age, Age when we know it was blown when the DO wasn't present, and age with no humans) At TG, at Falme, and whereever it was blown in the age prior to AoL.

 

It was never blown during the Age of Legends.

 

I never said it was. We know that it was not blown in the AoL so I included that as one of the 4 ages; for that matter that is why I included the age without humans. We know that between the age it was blown before the AoL and the current age it will be blown 3 times.

 

However at somepoint the horn needs to be created, so at somepoint the horn needs to be destroyed; which means in some of those remaining 3 ages it might not even be present so it can't be blown.

 

Assuming everything isn't reset at each turning of the wheel, or that things don't survive between turnings... Either way i see no relevance?

 

Anything that is created in WoT has to be destroyed before the next turning. This is one of the hints Min gets from teh books she is reading. The relevance is we know it was blown 3 times in 4 ages and at some point it needs to be destroyed. We know that it needs to be created in an age that understands the pattern and how the heroes work. Basically this gives us that the horn is not used many times throughout a turning of a wheel AND those that make it know about teh heroes linked to the horn. So putting a requirement like needing teh dragon and his banner is not some massive barrier.

 

Edit: There are actually ages not a single age where people do not know about channeling.

 

Oh? Evidence?

 

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

 

From this QoTW. RJ says there are ages where there is no idea how to channel or that the OP exists. Which includes our age

 

Oh and just to put another spanner in the works. At Falme Mat blows the horn, but the heroes hardly pay him any attention. If it were so easy to control the heroes of the horn, wouldn't they have at least asked Mat, who blew the horn, what he wanted them to do? Given how they react to Mat (who was corrupted at the time by the dagger), I would guess had a DF blown the horn instead they still would of followed Rand instead and not given the hornsounder much mind. They didn't come out of the mist and say, "ok hornsounder boss man what should we do?"

[Mik]

So if the dragon is used for more than just fighting the DO then he would also have a banner for other times he is spun out not to fight the DO.

NO. NO. NO. This is opinion stated as fact. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed. So why would he have this banner in these other Ages? He might have a banner, he might not, and this would have nothing to do with the Heroes, and everything to do with the hearts and minds of real, living men and women.

Oh oh the irony of Mr Ares stating wrong assumptions as fact.

 

This is a YOU ARE WRONG situation. The only problem now is battering it into the skulls of those who still struggle to comprehend this simple fact. Case proven. Not opinion. Fact.

 

Please, Mr Ares, in your infinite knowledge of facts, can you tell me how that all rhymes with this?

 

Steam curled over the cups while Moiraine chose her questions carefully. To find the answers, and not reveal too much. “The Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Prophecies, but is it linked to the Dragon anywhere?”

 

“No. Except for the fact that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai’don and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to fight the Last Battle, there is no link between them at all.” The white-haired woman sipped her tea and waited.

 

“Does anything link the Dragon with Toman Head?”

 

Vandene hesitated. “Yes, and no. This is a bone between Adeleas and me.” Her voice took on a lecturing tone, and for a time she did sound like a Brown. “There is a verse in the original that translates literally as ‘Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire... ’ Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma’vron. I say it should be translated not simply as ‘watchers,’which is a’vron. Ma’vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A’vron, of course, not Ma’vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea.

 

The funny thing about the above quote is, that Vandene was right. So, yes, the Dragon has a link to Toman Head.

And the beauty is, that the Prophecies of the Dragon state;

"Above the Watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire"

 

There's indication for you... and fact.

I guess it was coincidence now that the Horn was used at the same event?

 

Go re-read the thread Mik, I've explained this countless times. But the short answer is absolutely not. Hawkwing spoke the exact truth--something did hold him, and he felt a genuine compulsion to follow the banner and the Dragon--but it was a personal compulsion, not a literal one.

Go re-read chapter 22 of TGH, Luckers. Personal compulsion had nothing to do with it. It was meant literally.

 

[Mik]

Oh and just to put another spanner in the works. At Falme Mat blows the horn, but the heroes hardly pay him any attention. If it were so easy to control the heroes of the horn, wouldn't they have at least asked Mat, who blew the horn, what he wanted them to do? Given how they react to Mat (who was corrupted at the time by the dagger), I would guess had a DF blown the horn instead they still would of followed Rand instead and not given the hornsounder much mind. They didn't come out of the mist and say, "ok hornsounder boss man what should we do?"

Ahaha. Excellent point.

 

Now that's where Hawkwings personal feeling comes in, I guess. After the banner is out:

Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. “With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?”

It's also written that way. It's fitting. It's not like Hawkwing says "Something holds me, Trumpeter. Sound that Horn again"

 

Not logical, fallacious. Just because I say black and someone else says white doesn't mean the answer is grey. It can just be that I am right. As it is, we know the Heroes will follow a DF if one should blow the Horn. This is fact. Any theory on the topic must take this into account. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed., as opposed to sometimes needed or desired. All this is fact.

Wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong.

Darkfriends can blow the Horn. Fact. Heroes will come to the Horn. Fact. Where do the Heroes say they will fight for a Darkfriend?

In fact, a Hero (Birgitte) literally states "they are bound to wheel & horn, to fight the Shadow". (fact)

The bad part about a Darkfriend using the Horn is, that the Horn is tied to that Darkfriend.

 

About that Moiraine comment you keep talking about. Can either Luckers or Mr Ares (or someone else) please quote that bit from the books for me? I'd love to read it. I know Siuan said something that was 100% correct and was interpreted by Rand in a wrong way. Like ever so often in the books.

[Luckers]

Looking at various characters this is not limited to just Morraine, but several of the AS. So it is not a universal belief with the AS, and Morraine isn't an odd duck out. HTe AS as a whole believe a lot of things that aren't correct.

 

That's not the point-irrespective of how many Aes Sedai came to believe this, they began with the normal assumptions--and again, yes, whilst Aes Sedai routinely believe a lot of things that arn't true, ones that directly contradict societal assumption are rare. Indeed, if all Aes Sedai are educated in this it merely seves my point.

 

This QoTW however basically states that any documents Morraine would of read would of been changed so badly that only the base facts might be real.

 

No it doesn't. It says that Age of Legenders were dubious of the point--we may be dubious of Jupiter, but there are plenty of documents detailing in exact detail how to practice worship of him.

 

Her comment doesn't hold much wieght because you would have to go back past the Age of Legends for actual correct information. In an age that understood enough about the pattern and the heroes to bind them to a horn. That is long period of time for a document to survive. I think the most similar would be the book of Judas which contradicts most of the bible, but that is only 2000 years old and we are talking about a much longer difference in time. And at the same time in other threads you have mentioned that AS have forgotten and have no knowledge of male/female linking which was only 3000ish years prior which was a fact of the time, unlike the myth of the horn which was seem as a fansy and not reality at the time of the breaking.

 

But the fact remains that we are definately speaking of a specific source of knowledge. Unlike assumptions made about male/female linking we know for a fact that this information comes from something specific and concise. There is no other reason for the Aes Sedai to have turned against something they themselves would have believed as children. To follow your metaphor that would be like suggesting to a good christian child that Jesus occaisionally came to earth to do the devil's work.

 

Incidently, by inference you imply that the bible is accurate, for all that the works of Judas are not--parts of the bible ae upwards of 6,000 years old.

 

Technically we have no proof that he was not spun out inbetween the two, but it does seem likely that he wasn't

 

We do actually. Deindre foretold the next birth of the Dragon Soul, and foretellings are always accurate,

 

I thought you were saying big battles only where the DO is sealed or partially sealed away. Or are you saying the dragon would have to seal the DO away hundreds of times in a single age

 

I'm saying the Dragon comes to fight the Dark One. Nothing requies that involve sealing him away, or even big battles.

 

I recall it posted on the board before, but I couldnt find it in the QoTW. However the WoT series is based on Earth. RJ points this out many times. And I would guess that would be the age of the dinosaurs. For that matter there would also be the age of formation were there was no life or only single cell organisms. So depending on how you treat it that would be 1 or 2 ages without humans (note the museum has a skeleton of a dinosaur so we know they existed in WoT). I never knew the source, but going off of WoT based on our planet it makes sense.

 

There is no comment by RJ to that effect. And there are many threads on this matter.

 

I have posted this above. The WoT series is based off of our planet. And unless you believe the multiple million of years prior to humans don't deserve an age it is pretty realistic. As is posted by the quote below there are multiple ages without knowledge of the power. So dinosaurs (At least), 2 ages without knowledge of power (at least), AoL, current age, and post age.

 

Firstly, you changed that. You started with the no human aged, then went to the human without channeling, then went to the third age, then the age of legends, then the age before that.

 

5 ages, you said, with only two involving the Dark One. And i pointed out that the age before the age of legends was the age with no channeling. So, four ages, two with the dark one. The post age you never metioned, and have no basis for commenting on the dark ones presense.

 

Now, lets look at the no human age, the evoultion age. You assume it is involved in the wheel, yet this has been quite the hot topic, which is why i pulled you up. Personally im undecided, and RJ has made no comments on it. Many have suggested precisely that multiple millions of years on't deserve an age, some suggest that the wheel began after evolution, and that it resets to a specific point. I leave you to wade through that... im just pointing out that people dont think it as clear cut as you do.

 

You mean 2 channelers that worked on the massive airbourne platform at the peak of a peaceful age with only progress and no conflict, and channeled a massive amount of power right? coming out of an age that saw nothing but war, and going into another age with war (nicola's fortelling)? I find it rather unrealistic, unless it is at the tail end of the age. It could happen, but I am guessing the next age won't forget the DO and would stop any attempts to get him back

 

Who said they were channeling massive ammounts of the power? Mierin may be strong, but get your hands on an angreal and thats done with.

 

And by direct effect, not forgetting includes those who are darkrfriends. If two could manage it than all your comments about strife, and peace, and people stopping you go out the window. And since the bore was not at the Sharom, then being on an airborne platform is not necassary.

 

Actually no. Bridgette is forgetting most of her old lifetimes. When she is first dropped out she remembers more than later on when she is getting worried about never seeing Cain again until Min comforts her. However at that point she still remembers many lifetimes between the trolloc wars and the present time. And at one point she mentions that she only remembers her lives up until the formation of the tower and again she is talking about many lifetimes and not 1 - 2 since then.

 

What does that have to do with anything? She's forgetting since she was thrown out of TAR, prior to that she remembered. The heroes remember many lifetimes from many turnings of the wheel more than providing for the familiarity of the comments about 'you always get in trouble over women' and so forth.

 

Which was the point. And we all know Birgitte has had many lives since the age of legends.

 

I never said it was. We know that it was not blown in the AoL so I included that as one of the 4 ages; for that matter that is why I included the age without humans. We know that between the age it was blown before the AoL and the current age it will be blown 3 times.

 

Sorry it seemed you were citing it as one of the ages in which it was blown.

 

Anything that is created in WoT has to be destroyed before the next turning. This is one of the hints Min gets from teh books she is reading. The relevance is we know it was blown 3 times in 4 ages and at some point it needs to be destroyed. We know that it needs to be created in an age that understands the pattern and how the heroes work. Basically this gives us that the horn is not used many times throughout a turning of a wheel AND those that make it know about teh heroes linked to the horn. So putting a requirement like needing teh dragon and his banner is not some massive barrier.

 

My point was that the horn doesn't need to be destroyed, it can simply be reset.

 

And yes, it is, since the dragon and the banner were not present during the age before the age of legends.

 

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

 

From this QoTW. RJ says there are ages where there is no idea how to channel or that the OP exists. Which includes our age

 

Thanks mate.

[Fryn]

This QoTW however basically states that any documents Morraine would of read would of been changed so badly that only the base facts might be real.

 

No it doesn't. It says that Age of Legenders were dubious of the point--we may be dubious of Jupiter, but there are plenty of documents detailing in exact detail how to practice worship of him.

 

Yet if you compared what we think we know about the Incas with what actually happened there is likely lots that is actually different if we say took a time machine back there

 

Her comment doesn't hold much wieght because you would have to go back past the Age of Legends for actual correct information. In an age that understood enough about the pattern and the heroes to bind them to a horn. That is long period of time for a document to survive. I think the most similar would be the book of Judas which contradicts most of the bible, but that is only 2000 years old and we are talking about a much longer difference in time. And at the same time in other threads you have mentioned that AS have forgotten and have no knowledge of male/female linking which was only 3000ish years prior which was a fact of the time, unlike the myth of the horn which was seem as a fansy and not reality at the time of the breaking.

 

But the fact remains that we are definately speaking of a specific source of knowledge. Unlike assumptions made about male/female linking we know for a fact that this information comes from something specific and concise. There is no other reason for the Aes Sedai to have turned against something they themselves would have believed as children. To follow your metaphor that would be like suggesting to a good christian child that Jesus occaisionally came to earth to do the devil's work.

 

Incidently, by inference you imply that the bible is accurate, for all that the works of Judas are not--parts of the bible ae upwards of 6,000 years old.

 

Well I would say the bible proves my point... but I don't think it is good to post about religion on boards.

 

 

I recall it posted on the board before, but I couldnt find it in the QoTW. However the WoT series is based on Earth. RJ points this out many times. And I would guess that would be the age of the dinosaurs. For that matter there would also be the age of formation were there was no life or only single cell organisms. So depending on how you treat it that would be 1 or 2 ages without humans (note the museum has a skeleton of a dinosaur so we know they existed in WoT). I never knew the source, but going off of WoT based on our planet it makes sense.

 

There is no comment by RJ to that effect. And there are many threads on this matter.

 

QoTW Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.) Well he did state that our age was one of the ages. I guess I am in one of the camps that thinks the dinosaurs and formation deserve and age then =p

 

Now, lets look at the no human age, the evoultion age. You assume it is involved in the wheel, yet this has been quite the hot topic, which is why i pulled you up. Personally im undecided, and RJ has made no comments on it. Many have suggested precisely that multiple millions of years on't deserve an age, some suggest that the wheel began after evolution, and that it resets to a specific point. I leave you to wade through that... im just pointing out that people dont think it as clear cut as you do.

 

Interesting to know there is discussion on it at the very least. Its a very interesting case if if loops back to a specific point because it would mean the dinosaurs would continue to seem older and older, because the wheel isn't set up to restart time, but to contine with time continueing to increase. However if it looped to a specific point in time carbon dating of those objects would be older in teh next turning. However it kind of contradicts the findings in teh books Min is reading which points out that rand must undo all the damage to teh bore if it is to be rebored the next time the wheel turns.

 

You mean 2 channelers that worked on the massive airbourne platform at the peak of a peaceful age with only progress and no conflict, and channeled a massive amount of power right? coming out of an age that saw nothing but war, and going into another age with war (nicola's fortelling)? I find it rather unrealistic, unless it is at the tail end of the age. It could happen, but I am guessing the next age won't forget the DO and would stop any attempts to get him back

 

Who said they were channeling massive ammounts of the power? Mierin may be strong, but get your hands on an angreal and thats done with.

 

And by direct effect, not forgetting includes those who are darkrfriends. If two could manage it than all your comments about strife, and peace, and people stopping you go out the window. And since the bore was not at the Sharom, then being on an airborne platform is not necassary.

 

In the flash back of the Aiel legacy didn't we see the bore opening? It seemed like it was more than just 2 channelers. Again it is possible, much in teh same way WWIII is possible, yet the world leaders fear a nuclear war so try to prevent an war between teh major countries

 

Actually no. Bridgette is forgetting most of her old lifetimes. When she is first dropped out she remembers more than later on when she is getting worried about never seeing Cain again until Min comforts her. However at that point she still remembers many lifetimes between the trolloc wars and the present time. And at one point she mentions that she only remembers her lives up until the formation of the tower and again she is talking about many lifetimes and not 1 - 2 since then.

 

What does that have to do with anything? She's forgetting since she was thrown out of TAR, prior to that she remembered. The heroes remember many lifetimes from many turnings of the wheel more than providing for the familiarity of the comments about 'you always get in trouble over women' and so forth.

 

Which was the point. And we all know Birgitte has had many lives since the age of legends.

 

Yes and it appears that most of the other heroes have had many lives. They also seem to very fondly know LTT will always get in trouble over a woman. So its more likely to think about all of the men that had issues with women in stories, which is numerous. To me it seemed like it was more than a few times every turning, but that could just be how it is. That said is it possible to have a dragon at all in an age without the power? or would he simply not have it in those ages if spun out? The same for other heroes that might have access to the OP

 

Anything that is created in WoT has to be destroyed before the next turning. This is one of the hints Min gets from the books she is reading. The relevance is we know it was blown 3 times in 4 ages and at some point it needs to be destroyed. We know that it needs to be created in an age that understands the pattern and how the heroes work. Basically this gives us that the horn is not used many times throughout a turning of a wheel AND those that make it know about teh heroes linked to the horn. So putting a requirement like needing teh dragon and his banner is not some massive barrier.

 

My point was that the horn doesn't need to be destroyed, it can simply be reset.

 

I definitely don't buy that theory, based on the books Min is reading

 

And yes, it is, since the dragon and the banner were not present during the age before the age of legends.

 

However whoever made the horn would of known about the heroes of the horn, and how they are bound to the wheel. The dragon will be there by default if summoned by the horn. Unless you are saying the dragon isn't a hero of the horn.

[LordoftheMorning]

Hopefully Mat will blow the Horn in AMoL. If the Heroes battle without the banner they hey... those of us that believe that the banner was a situational condition are right. If Rand has to be there with the banner, then we will know the banner is a permanent condition. I'm gonna put my money on the banner having no real importance to the Horn.

[Luckers]

Yet if you compared what we think we know about the Incas with what actually happened there is likely lots that is actually different if we say took a time machine back there

 

There is a difference between knowing something, and knowing everything. Of course we are not as aware of what the Incas were liked as we would be were we able to time travel back there--which is not to say that what we do know is in someway in doubt. I happen to major in comparative religion, and whilst I don't specifically study the Incas i know several people who do, and who can get quite boring at dinner parties proving it.

 

The lack of complete knowledge does not cast doubt on what is actually known.

 

Well I would say the bible proves my point... but I don't think it is good to post about religion on boards.

 

Funnily enough the bible is my point of expertise, and i do disagree. But your probably right about not bringing it up. Boring dinner parties and all that, lol.

 

 

 

QoTW Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.) Well he did state that our age was one of the ages. I guess I am in one of the camps that thinks the dinosaurs and formation deserve and age then =p

 

None of which says RJ specified that the age of the dinosaurs is an age that happens in each turning.

 

I dont even disagree with you mate, im just saying, many disagree with your assumption.

 

Interesting to know there is discussion on it at the very least. Its a very interesting case if if loops back to a specific point because it would mean the dinosaurs would continue to seem older and older, because the wheel isn't set up to restart time, but to contine with time continueing to increase. However if it looped to a specific point in time carbon dating of those objects would be older in teh next turning. However it kind of contradicts the findings in teh books Min is reading which points out that rand must undo all the damage to teh bore if it is to be rebored the next time the wheel turns.

 

How do you know the wheel isn't set up to restart time? If it loops back to a specific point each turning of the wheel would age from that moment, like a save point in a computer.

 

And it doesn't contradict anything Min found. All she knows is that the bore must be completely re-healed by the time the second age comes again--perhaps the reset of the wheel does that.

 

In the flash back of the Aiel legacy didn't we see the bore opening? It seemed like it was more than just 2 channelers. Again it is possible, much in teh same way WWIII is possible, yet the world leaders fear a nuclear war so try to prevent an war between teh major countries

 

We do see the bore opening, and we know from it that it was Mierin and Beidomon's doing. The destruction of the Sharom was the backlash of the Dark One's energy released in the world.

 

And i don't see how your connection works. World War 3 requires involvement from pretty much every world power, this requires two channelers of above average strength, or perhaps 13 channelers of weaker strength. We've seen by far more darkfriend channelers then either.

 

Yes and it appears that most of the other heroes have had many lives. They also seem to very fondly know LTT will always get in trouble over a woman. So its more likely to think about all of the men that had issues with women in stories, which is numerous. To me it seemed like it was more than a few times every turning, but that could just be how it is. That said is it possible to have a dragon at all in an age without the power? or would he simply not have it in those ages if spun out? The same for other heroes that might have access to the OP

 

The Dragon has had many lives--i dont understand the distinction you are trying to make. Thats many lives, and many times for LTT to get into trouble over women.

 

And, again, its entirely possible that it involves more than a couple of times each turning. There very easily could be ages with the Dragon being spun out hundreds of times.

 

I definitely don't buy that theory, based on the books Min is reading

 

Can you expand on that please? Nothing Min states precludes the possibility of a reset. Or even suggests it.

 

However whoever made the horn would of known about the heroes of the horn, and how they are bound to the wheel. The dragon will be there by default if summoned by the horn. Unless you are saying the dragon isn't a hero of the horn.

 

Whic brings as back to the idea that the hornmaker made his weapon subject to the singular whims of one of his bullets.

 

It's absurd. I'm sorry.

 

 

[Fryn]

How do you know the wheel isn't set up to restart time? If it loops back to a specific point each turning of the wheel would age from that moment, like a save point in a computer.

 

And it doesn't contradict anything Min found. All she knows is that the bore must be completely re-healed by the time the second age comes again--perhaps the reset of the wheel does that.

 

Because it is impossible. Timetravel in theory is possible, but not in the scale of moving an entire planet back in time. Ontop of this it would bring in a loop where a persons son would be their ancient relative, which opens the door to the realm of a world of paradoxes. Based on the fact the wheel turns from age to age and that the 1st through 7th ages are just relative to those in the ages not relative to the wheel itself (they are definitions by people only with no real relavence to when the wheel actually starts or ends), a time loop would not work. A loop back would mean either tansporting a planet and all matter in the universe back in time (note reverting less than that and you will not have the same state, due to gravitational differences within the universe), including the people that would be in a time when they in theory should not be born. Or it would mean just transfering the planet back in time and royally screwing the current souls that were previously alive and adding new souls.

 

 

On top of that the function of the wheel procludes it. For the wheel to be self regulating it needs to have references to prior turnings, so the age lace can be compared. For this to happen the wheel needs to function as a spiral that contines so it can refer to prior turnings; time needs to continue so you can set a reference point verse the time of the current turning compared to a time in a previous turning. If it looped back in time, then there would be no reference point and the wheel would have no way of self correcting to a previous point because that data would be lost. It also means that every turning would be exactly the same and it would not allow for slight changes in the pattern, as we are lead to believe. A time warp idea realistically isn't a stable design for a long lasting system, and is much easier to break than a longer duration system.

 

The wheel turns based on the interaction of saidin and saidar. The amount of saidin and saidar are constant. For the wheel to reverse back in time there would need to be extra saidin and saidar. A time warp reality is entirely different than a circular reality. A time warp reality isn't circular for a start it is linear and then just reverses and restarts or more like a loop. The main point is a time warp does not have to revert to its starting point and is not necissarily circular; however a circular wheel requires the ages to work in such a way that there is no beginning or end and you just have a constant cycle. With a timewarp you have a definite begining and a definite ending. And as the quote goes there are niether beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. A timewarp reality goes directly against this very quote and overall idea of the series.

 

Lastly what Min is finding out is required for Rand to win in TG. Rand asked specific questions to get an idea of how to do what he was told to do in the doorway terangrel. He made sure to ask specific questions about how he could win. The break through that happened was that it was determined that for the bore to be opened it needed to be closed before it hits that time in the turning again. Without other references it would work to just warp back in time, however resealing the bore is the key Rand needs to win. As in he needs to know that not only is it possible, but it must happen. If the seal isn't closed in AMoL I'll be entirely shocked.

 

 

I'm sure I didn't explain that properly mind you, but it just doesn't match with what we know about the WoT world. In fact it slaps the very idea of the series in the face, because it implies a very real begining and ending. By definition a set starting point from a timewarp would be a beginning.

[General Cauthon]

note the museum has a skeleton of a dinosaur so we know they existed in WoT

 

Whats saying that the dinosaurs couldn't have lived in the age before AoL? There's nothing that prevents dinosaurs and humans from living alongside, in the same Age. Humans wouldn't have any problems surviving in the climate under which the dinosaurs lived. Just because they didn't in our world, doesn't mean they couldn't in WoT.

 

My point is that reserving one Age for the dinosaurs is based purely on speculation, and isn't constructive in this diacussion.

 

To get back on topic....

It's my belief that IF Shivan and his sister appears in the series, it will be Elaynes twins. I doubt they'll appear though

[Valinthros]

I stated directly why i thought Moiraine's comment significant. Yes, Aes Sedai are given to assuming things and stating them as the truth--especially in relation to the Power.

 

However, the widespread belief was that the Horn could only be sounded by the Light, and that the Heroes would only serve the Light. This wasn't the popular opinion, it was the only opinion, so inbred into society that it wasn't questioned.

 

Moiraine grew up with this belief, yet she encountered something that not only made her question this fundemental belief, but changed her opinion to a degree that she felt comfortable, bound by the oaths, stating her new opinion as fact.

 

Aes Sedai are untrustworthy specifically because of their arrogance in their personal opinions--this was a contradiction of Moiraine's personal opinons, and that speaks for itself.

 

In short though the significance is not in the proclaimed source, but rather in Moiraines reaction to it.

 

Though this has already been dealt with it seems, I dont see how this gives a direct source that Moir pulled from, which was my point.  Your response didnt quite refute or address my simple question: "What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?"  You stated she had a viable source.  I wanted to know just what that was.

 

What's the viable source that Moir pulled from?  She ask Hawkwing when we werent looking?  Or maybe RJ told her. As an aside, with my example above, what records remain that catalogue the use of the horn?  Hmmm?  Unknown.  Refute it if you must, using that as a viable argument and basis for how the horn is supposed to work is in fact unfounded.  Which is to say, Hawkwings comments, taken literally, could definitely be true.  We just dont know.

 

I stated directly why i thought Moiraine's comment significant. Yes, Aes Sedai are given to assuming things and stating them as the truth--especially in relation to the Power.

 

However, the widespread belief was that the Horn could only be sounded by the Light, and that the Heroes would only serve the Light. This wasn't the popular opinion, it was the only opinion, so inbred into society that it wasn't questioned.

 

Moiraine grew up with this belief, yet she encountered something that not only made her question this fundemental belief, but changed her opinion to a degree that she felt comfortable, bound by the oaths, stating her new opinion as fact.

 

Aes Sedai are untrustworthy specifically because of their arrogance in their personal opinions--this was a contradiction of Moiraine's personal opinons, and that speaks for itself.

 

In short though the significance is not in the proclaimed source, but rather in Moiraines reaction to it.

 

I'm not sure you need to buy it Luckers.

 

In direct response to a comment stating "How many more times do you need to hear blah blah blah..."?

 

My answer remains as it was then, "ALOT more."

 

Valinthros, try not to preach before you read. It never ends well.

 

It ended quite well, thank you.  I'm glad you feel that I'm a preacher, and that my knowledge and input is insignificant here.  Good to know how people really feel.  Which brings me to the below:

 

And you don't read before you post. I stated directly that there are two potential interpretations of Hawkwngs comment--and that, in a vacuum each are viable. I then went on to state that in light of the additional information--the implications from Moiraine's quote and RJ's--that deductively we can settle on the fact that Hawkwing was speaking personally, not functionally when he called for the banner

You ignored the fact that the statements you are refuting are in direct response to a very valid argument in this post.  Note:  Dont assume I said a direct response to you, as this was my first post in this thread.  Back on topic:  Are the undies in fact the same as the banner?  Do they match up as an example?  You can be critical, that's fine, but errantly informing me of what I've read or not read is pretty assumptous, and I have to say a bit low.  You could have answered this a bit differently perhaps?  It's easy to post what you feel is right, or what pops up first, maybe you should think about your response before jumping to some very incorrect conclusions. 

 

That's the only reason I brought this up, not that I beleive you're incorrect or correct.  Just that you assume this as fact, when you cant prove one bit that it is.  Ex:  I must first log into my system in order to access the internet.  That's easily proven as fact.  I MUST HAVE MY CAPS LOCK ON TO TYPE.  That's all I said.  Well, maybe that was a desire to type with caps and annoy the hell out of someone, but it also may be that I cant type unless my caps lock is on because my keyboard is hozed.  You just dont have enough info Luckers.

 

Go read the thread--lecture me when your informed. Then perhaps we can have a discussion.

 

Perhaps that wasnt a lecture, but for an instant, assume that it was a 'discussion'.  With me stating how I felt your logic was flawed.  And you stating a good response with some body to it.  No high and mighty Valinthros, you're a retard.  Just, read it, and respond appropriately.  What I posted was exactly how I felt, not intrusive or meant as an affront to your personal character.  It was exactly how I felt about a topic that was in discussion.  And the conclusion that I came to was that you did not have enough info to back up your theory.  You insulted my intellect and investiture in the topic at hand.  Much appreciated.

[Valinthros]

I completely missed your responses to my post Mr Ares, I'll be addressing them below.

 

As far as Aes Sedai know, they are the only people who work intensively with the Power over a long period. They are also the only ones to develop the Agelessness. That they think the two are linked is not unreasonable. But everyone believes the Heroes only serve the good guys, not the Shadow. For Moiraine to state as fact something which is directly contradictory to what everyone else knows means she is not bound by the Oaths (which we know she is) or she has reason for believing this true. So she must have a reason for believing it to be true. This is simple fact. How else could she state as true something which contradicts what everyone else knows? She couldn't. She must have a reliable source.

 

  Your logic as to why the example doesnt fit, I follow completely.  I agree with the differences.  The point of the post was just to state that simply because she is Aes Sedai, does not mean that she is correct.  It was wholly to produce the train of thought that we should be able to agree on;  Aes Sedai does not equal Truth.

 

True enough. But there is more evidence than just Hawkwing's words. Taken in isolation, Mik's and Fryn's answer is as valid as Majsju's or Luckers's. But these words do not exist in a vacuum. There are other sources, such as Moiraine and RJ, and they disprove certain otherwise viable theories. Mik's and Fryn's opinions do not take all the evidence into account. That other evidence disproves this theory. It is no longer viable. It doesn't work. Opinions are fine in the absence of facts, but the facts prove this wrong. This is not an agree to disagree situation. This is a YOU ARE WRONG situation. The only problem now is battering it into the skulls of those who still struggle to comprehend this simple fact. Case proven. Not opinion. Fact.

 

See, that's what I struggle to comprehend.  It is opinion. I can definitely see how it would sway an opinion.  However, I definitely do not see it as fact.  Since Moir, who hasnt talked to Hawkwing as far as I can tell, says something that directly affects what he says...  well, you see my point.  None of what Moir says makes what Hawkwing said mean one thing or another for a fact.  It is still an opinion, or assumption.  Moiraine said x, and that is a fact.  Hawkwing said x, and that is a fact.  Because Moir said x, Hawkwing meant x.  Fact?  That's what I find hard to believe.

 

 

We do not know, but the fact she was able to say something in direct contradiction to the facts as everyone else understands them, and do so as stating a fact, not mere supposition, means such a source must exist, or Moiraine was lying. And we know she can't lie. We do not know what the source was, but we know from how she said it that she must have one. Simple fact. Not opinion. If your opinion disagrees, your opinion is worthless. She had a source. Fact. This has been explained. Earlier in the thread.

 

Agreed, she must have had some kind of source to believe the way she did.  My whole issue with using that as a basis was that it was stated as a reliable source.  When in fact we cant pin down that source difinitively.  And so we get it second hand here.  Which is heresay.  Heresay that was stated earlier in the thread, to which I put a question to.

 

Hawkwings comments suggest themselves to more than one possible explanation. Moiraine's comments rule out Mik's. Fact.

 

I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to be supporting of Mik's to make that 100%.  I simply stated what you did in your post, just a bit differently.  "Hawkwings comments suggest themselves to more than one possible explanation."  And added that we can speculate, however, it is not fact that they were literal or not.  It's opinion, and speculation.  I have an opinion on what they meant, that's not my point.  ;)

 

 

 

Something more annoying than caps lock: idiots who refuse to read the arguments in a thread, or fail to understand those arguments when stated clearly. I find such very rude, and tend not to react well to it.

 

I know some of the following has been addressed, but sometimes you really have to batter things into the heads of the hard of understanding.

 

I appreciate the comments above, though they are completely irrelivant to my posts.  My intent, was not to be rude, but to present a different way of looking at something that was still, as far as I could tell, under discussion.  That is hardly rude or idiotic.  It's an open board, where discussion happens.  The comment you responded to gives a direct example, that in fact does this:  "Hawkwings comments suggest themselves to more than one possible explanation."  Simple, and without malice.

[Mik]

I think these posts were conviniently forgotten in the discussion.

I'd hate to see the Karaethon Cycle being forgotten in this discussion.

It being a Cycle, stating all sorts of things about the Dragon and all.. and pretty relevant, if you ask me.

 

So here it is again, to haunt people who love to make a mockery of others when they can claim easy victory, but choose to ignore posts when things get a little harder...

 

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So if the dragon is used for more than just fighting the DO then he would also have a banner for other times he is spun out not to fight the DO.

NO. NO. NO. This is opinion stated as fact. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed. So why would he have this banner in these other Ages? He might have a banner, he might not, and this would have nothing to do with the Heroes, and everything to do with the hearts and minds of real, living men and women.

Oh oh the irony of Mr Ares stating wrong assumptions as fact.

 

This is a YOU ARE WRONG situation. The only problem now is battering it into the skulls of those who still struggle to comprehend this simple fact. Case proven. Not opinion. Fact.

 

Please, Mr Ares, in your infinite knowledge of facts, can you tell me how that all rhymes with this?

 

Steam curled over the cups while Moiraine chose her questions carefully. To find the answers, and not reveal too much. “The Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Prophecies, but is it linked to the Dragon anywhere?”

 

“No. Except for the fact that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai’don and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to fight the Last Battle, there is no link between them at all.” The white-haired woman sipped her tea and waited.

 

“Does anything link the Dragon with Toman Head?”

 

Vandene hesitated. “Yes, and no. This is a bone between Adeleas and me.” Her voice took on a lecturing tone, and for a time she did sound like a Brown. “There is a verse in the original that translates literally as ‘Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire... ’ Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma’vron. I say it should be translated not simply as ‘watchers,’which is a’vron. Ma’vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A’vron, of course, not Ma’vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea.

 

The funny thing about the above quote is, that Vandene was right. So, yes, the Dragon has a link to Toman Head.

And the beauty is, that the Prophecies of the Dragon state;

"Above the Watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire"

 

There's indication for you... and fact.

I guess it was coincidence now that the Horn was used at the same event?

 

Go re-read the thread Mik, I've explained this countless times. But the short answer is absolutely not. Hawkwing spoke the exact truth--something did hold him, and he felt a genuine compulsion to follow the banner and the Dragon--but it was a personal compulsion, not a literal one.

Go re-read chapter 22 of TGH, Luckers. Personal compulsion had nothing to do with it. It was meant literally.

 

Oh and just to put another spanner in the works. At Falme Mat blows the horn, but the heroes hardly pay him any attention. If it were so easy to control the heroes of the horn, wouldn't they have at least asked Mat, who blew the horn, what he wanted them to do? Given how they react to Mat (who was corrupted at the time by the dagger), I would guess had a DF blown the horn instead they still would of followed Rand instead and not given the hornsounder much mind. They didn't come out of the mist and say, "ok hornsounder boss man what should we do?"

Ahaha. Excellent point.

 

Now that's where Hawkwings personal feeling comes in, I guess. After the banner is out:

Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?

It's also written that way. It's fitting. It's not like Hawkwing says "Something holds me, Trumpeter. Sound that Horn again"

 

Not logical, fallacious. Just because I say black and someone else says white doesn't mean the answer is grey. It can just be that I am right. As it is, we know the Heroes will follow a DF if one should blow the Horn. This is fact. Any theory on the topic must take this into account. There is nothing to indicate that a banner is ever needed., as opposed to sometimes needed or desired. All this is fact.

Wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong.

Darkfriends can blow the Horn. Fact. Heroes will come to the Horn. Fact. Where do the Heroes say they will fight for a Darkfriend?

In fact, a Hero (Birgitte) literally states "they are bound to wheel & horn, to fight the Shadow". (fact)

The bad part about a Darkfriend using the Horn is, that the Horn is tied to that Darkfriend.

 

About that Moiraine comment you keep talking about. Can either Luckers or Mr Ares (or someone else) please quote that bit from the books for me? I'd love to read it. I know Siuan said something that was 100% correct and was interpreted by Rand in a wrong way. Like ever so often in the books.

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