Questions about the Bore and it's Seals

[mb]

Several questions I have.

 

Did the Forsaken age while they where inside the Bore?  Or did their aging like freeze during that time?

 

The books tell of 7 Seals and tell that Aginor and Balthamel were near the top.  3 of the Seals have been found intact; others have been found broken.

The broken Seal found in Eye of the World, I guess sealed Aginor & Balthamel.  Is this correct?

The broken pieces found in Great Hunt, I guess sealed Lanfear.  Is this correct?

Sammael and Belal where the next Forsaken known to be released.  Would the seal found in Dragon Reborn have been the one to seal them?

Asmodean, Graendal, Moghedien, and Rahvin make their first appearance  in Fires of Heaven.  Would the seals found in that book have been the ones that sealed them?

The seal given to Rand in Lord of Chaos, would that one been the one that sealed Semirhage?

 

The broken pieces, how many Seals do they make?  I know that the number answering that would have to be at most 3, yet I am not sure on the number.

 

[Benjamin]

So many questions... it has been a few years since I last read the series, so don´t hit me if I remember something wrong :)

 

Balthamel and Aginor were imprisoned near the surface, able to sense the world from time to time, and influenced by the passing of the years - so they aged visibly, while either their connection to the dark one or the prison itself kept them alive. The other Forsaken slept a deep, and dreamless sleep (at least in Lanfears case RJ wrote somthing like that, and as the rest of the evil guys don´t look like zombies they will have had an equally peaceful rest).

I do not think that the forsaken were bound by individual seals - the prison was closed by placing the last of the seven seals, and with each seal broken, it will get weaker, until the dark one can escape. As Aginor and Balthamel were nearest to the surface, they were the first ones who could escape the weakening prison, while the others woke up later, after further seals had failed.

As for the number of broken seals, I seem to remember thinking along your lines: six seals found, three of them broken, and one has not yet appeared in the books.

 

Benjamin 

[Mr Ares]

The broken Seal found in Eye of the World, I guess sealed Aginor & Balthamel. Is this correct?

No

The broken pieces found in Great Hunt, I guess sealed Lanfear.  Is this correct?

We saw one of those seals intact in that book, and have no indication the other was broken. No.

Sammael and Belal where the next Forsaken known to be released. Would the seal found in Dragon Reborn have been the one to seal them?

No. The seal found in TDR is intact.

Asmodean, Graendal, Moghedien, and Rahvin make their first appearance  in Fires of Heaven. Would the seals found in that book have been the ones that sealed them?

Rahvin is in TDR. Asmo and Moggy are both in TSR. And no.

The seal given to Rand in Lord of Chaos, would that one been the one that sealed Semirhage?

No. Individual seals do not seal individual Chosen, nor groups of Chosen. We don't know when the first seal brok in relation to the escape of Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel, but the next two seals are reported broken at the end of TGH, during which book the other Chosen get free.

 

The broken pieces, how many Seals do they make? I know that the number answering that would have to be at most 3, yet I am not sure on the number.

There are four broken seals, 3 intact, of those one has been cut.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/seals.html

[RAND AL THOR]

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon of the Age of Legends, sealed the Bore with 7 focus points. The seals may be said to represent the focus points.

 

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

Individual seals do not hold individual Forsaken, as Mr Ares stated.

 

As the seals broke, the patch over the Bore got weaker. The more seals broken, the weaker the patch. The gradual weakening allowed the Forsaken to escape.

 

Other than Balthamel and Aginor, the Forsaken did not age physically during their slumber.

[Paviel]

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

A minor point, perhaps, but Ishamael wasn't.

[algspkr]

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon of the Age of Legends, sealed the Bore with 7 focus points. The seals may be said to represent the focus points.

 

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

Individual seals do not hold individual Forsaken, as Mr Ares stated.

 

As the seals broke, the patch over the Bore got weaker. The more seals broken, the weaker the patch. The gradual weakening allowed the Forsaken to escape.

 

Other than Balthamel and Aginor, the Forsaken did not age physically during their slumber.

The Forsaken were not trapped in the bore, but in the patch that LTT put over the bore.

[RAND AL THOR]

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

A minor point, perhaps, but Ishamael wasn't.

 

Ishamael was also sealed, though incompletely- which is what allowed his periodic escape from the Bore.

 

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon of the Age of Legends, sealed the Bore with 7 focus points. The seals may be said to represent the focus points.

 

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

Individual seals do not hold individual Forsaken, as Mr Ares stated.

 

As the seals broke, the patch over the Bore got weaker. The more seals broken, the weaker the patch. The gradual weakening allowed the Forsaken to escape.

 

Other than Balthamel and Aginor, the Forsaken did not age physically during their slumber.

The Forsaken were not trapped in the bore, but in the patch that LTT put over the bore.

 

I am unsure of where I got it, but I'm fairly sure that a reliable source mentions, somewhere in the books, that the Bore was sealed with the Forsaken on the other side. Is it even possible to get trapped in the Seal itself?

 

[algspkr]

I am unsure of where I got it, but I'm fairly sure that a reliable source mentions, somewhere in the books, that the Bore was sealed with the Forsaken on the other side. Is it even possible to get trapped in the Seal itself?

I do not remember where I read it, though I am fairly certain that it came from a Forsaken PoV.  I always pictured the Forsaken having been trapped in the lid of a jar.

[Roxinos]

I always pictured the Seal being applied to Shayol Ghul in general. The whole area has been distorted by the fact that the Pattern is weaker there (which is why the Bore is able to be sensed in that spot). Since the Bore is everywhere, so, conceivably, is the Seal. The Chosen that were trapped were fighting off the invasion from Shayol Ghul when Lews Therin finished the Seal. The Seal encompassed everything in Shayol Ghul, so the Chosen were trapped there, suspended.

[triadruid]

I do not remember where I read it, though I am fairly certain that it came from a Forsaken PoV.  I always pictured the Forsaken having been trapped in the lid of a jar.

I suspect you're thinking of Aginor's speech at the Eye:

"The Forsaken," Mat said hoarsely, "are bound in Shayol Ghul - "

 

"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more."

[algspkr]

I do not remember where I read it, though I am fairly certain that it came from a Forsaken PoV.  I always pictured the Forsaken having been trapped in the lid of a jar.

I suspect you're thinking of Aginor's speech at the Eye:

"The Forsaken," Mat said hoarsely, "are bound in Shayol Ghul - "

 

"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more."

No, I'm doing a reread, and I can tell you that I'm thinking of is after the midpoint of TFoH, probably in a later book all together.

[triadruid]

I can't remember which, but there was some Chosen (female?) talking about how she didn't dream while bound. That may be the passage, it seems like it was about the right time with what you're thinking of (I don't have the books in front of me, and Google Books is being spectacularly unhelpful).

[a pale tanned lover]

Have all 7 of the seals been found? and do you think the seals are like the chosen kal a smaller model of a larger seal though both being the same?

[a pale tanned lover]

ok have found out by previous comment that all 7 seals have been accouned for.

 

but another question i have, and i apoligise if this has already been covered, it's always been mentioned that the one power makes cuendillar stronger if used against but does it mention anywhere if the true power has the same effect or not, and if cuendillar made by male@female channelers together is stronger then when made with just the one power. hope that question makes sense and once again apoligies if this has already been covered.

[Luckers]

The Forsaken were all on the other side of the Bore during the moment of sealing.

 

Technically, they were IN the bore, not on the other side of it. It was like they were cemented into the wall, with Aginor and Balthemel so close to the surface that their faces sticked out, and Ishamael only had a foot caught in the cement.

 

I am unsure of where I got it, but I'm fairly sure that a reliable source mentions, somewhere in the books, that the Bore was sealed with the Forsaken on the other side. Is it even possible to get trapped in the Seal itself?

 

The catechism states it, but thats not reliable--it also claims the Forsaken were bound at the moment of creation.

 

It is stated many times the nature of their imprisonment--but logically we can deduce it, the Forsaken never went to the other side of the Bore. They went to the thinnest point, the closest to the bore they could get, in order to commune with the Dark One. They were never on the other side.

 

but another question i have, and i apoligise if this has already been covered, it's always been mentioned that the one power makes cuendillar stronger if used against but does it mention anywhere if the true power has the same effect or not, and if cuendillar made by male@female channelers together is stronger then when made with just the one power. hope that question makes sense and once again apoligies if this has already been covered.

 

Neither question has been addressed--and given that the Dark One has managed over time to weaken and break the seals it seems highly possible that the True Power does indeed work to weaken them--though so slowly and incrementally that it seems useless. Unless your, you know, an immortal dark god.

 

As for the second--we don't know. I've always had a problem with the idea that channeling at cuendillar makes it stronger--how can you get stronger than 'completely unbreakable'?

 

 

[triadruid]

As for the second--we don't know. I've always had a problem with the idea that channeling at cuendillar makes it stronger--how can you get stronger than 'completely unbreakable'?

Heh, good catch. I wonder what would happen if someone channeled with untainted saidin/saidar at one of the failing seals? Or if someone tried to 'reform' them as 'good' cuendillar, now that they've rediscovered its making...

[a pale tanned lover]

I've always wondered why they never just channelled at the remaining seals, surely that would buy them more time?

[Hybrid]

As for the second--we don't know. I've always had a problem with the idea that channeling at cuendillar makes it stronger--how can you get stronger than 'completely unbreakable'?

Heh, good catch. I wonder what would happen if someone channeled with untainted saidin/saidar at one of the failing seals? Or if someone tried to 'reform' them as 'good' cuendillar, now that they've rediscovered its making...

 

I dunno.  It might work, but on the other hand, the unbreakable cuendillar seals have been eroded to the point where more mundane methods will destroy them.  Even if it were possible, I don't think Rand and co. will be willing to risk it.

[mb]

Another question:  If the Whole Seals are not at the Bore, how then is the Dark One sealed?

 

[Ndshacker]

The seals are only focal points, I believe it has been explained in th books.

 

And as to channeling at Cuendillar I always wondered as well, I thought that they wouldnt risked it, but why not just say... Place a weave that isnt dangerous, (Invisibiltiy) and see if it empowers it,.

[Hybrid]

The seals are only focal points, I believe it has been explained in th books.

Yes.  Though the actual details of the weave is never really explained.

 

And as to channeling at Cuendillar I always wondered as well, I thought that they wouldnt risked it, but why not just say... Place a weave that isnt dangerous, (Invisibiltiy) and see if it empowers it,.

Unfortunately, the main characters do not always do what we think is smart.  Take Traveling for example.  It would be perfect for staying in communication.

 

[Mr Ares]

Another question:  If the Whole Seals are not at the Bore, how then is the Dark One sealed?

The Bore is everywhere. So where are they if not at the Bore?