On the Seanchan attack of the White Tneower

[Majsju]

Breaking Wise Ones should be quite easy if the Seanchan figures out the trick. Shame.

 

Of course, the Aiels code of pride and shame is quite a challenge for an outsider to figure out, so it might take some time...

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Your calculator did not break.  However, the Seanchan are far from beaten.  They've still got powerful forces, and they're already planning their next offensives.

Exactly, if they thought that they were in danger of suffering a major setback, they surely, wouldn't be planning on taking on the White Tower.

 

Galgan certainly views Ituralde as an irritant. One who has cost him a lot, to be sure, but one that he seems entirely confident of dealing with (via a subordinate commander). - That comes from Suroth's last meeting with him, the one before the very end of KOD.

As for their military prowess, look at Karede and Galgan.  Yulan and Khirgan.  The Seanchan have their share of great generals.

We haven't actually seen them in action (on screen), on any great scale, apart from Galgan. Are they great? Maybe.

 

Galgan is certainly calm and composed when we see him responding to Ituralde. He recognises Ituraldes talents, but still seems content that he can deal with him. He seems like a practical soldier (witness the disgust of Suroth at the way he places function over Seanchan etiquette). Karede, again, seems entirely competent. If his advice is being sought by nobles, that suggests a level of respect.

 

But, bear in mind that all of Randland has only produced Jagad, Bashere, Ituralde, Bryne and Niall (now dead). Mat is a freak of nature/The Wheel. I'd hesistate to claim that the Seanchan would have a large number of great generals. But then again, who knows? They've been at war on a regular basis.

Also, surprise attacks and blitzkrieg are good strategies.  What, you think they should have warned the nations about their invasion first?  Their track record proves that they have great generals.  They have never lost a war.  Ever.

Exactly, and ... going by my feeling (opinion), it appears that the attack on the Tower will be from the air. That's straight out of blitzkreig, fast, and unexpected. They're reverting to type here.

[Auld Manriva]

Yes, I agree, Surprise IS a great strategy. My point is that other than that they've not had much in the way of positive results in other campaigns (in Randland). I've not said they are beaten, just weakened substantially. Through losses in manpower and material, the loss of support from the Homeland etc. Ituralde has his own plans and backup plans for the forces chasing him north into Arad Doman. If that set to comes to pass (and I'm not so sure it will, Rand's peace/temp. truce plans may cause a halt) we'll see what geniuses they are.

 

I interpret Egwene's dream as just that, a dream. One that suggests something to be aware of and look out for. It's likely, I concede, but I don't think a Seanchan assault on the WT is a foregone conclusion. I cannot get my mind around how it would be plausibly done. Even fiction has to have some basis in reality. Where are they coming from, this great airborne force? How many thousands of miles do they have to travel and remain unseen or be unsuspected. To'raken aren't C-130's and they don't carry hundreds of troops each. Who in the WT at this point would give a rats hind end if a hand full snatched Elaida as a hostage? Not many I suspect. Though now that I think about it, Egwene just might the be one to save her worthless, self absorbed rear end. Gaining much Ji in the process.

 

There's a lot of stuff yet to happen still for a drawn out aside about SC taking the WT. My point about it being a device to cement Egwene as Amyrlin is that if it happens, it will be a short, minimum consequence piece of the story and as such I wonder at all the significance given it in this and other threads I've noted in the years I've been here.

[Hybrid]

Perhaps genius was a bit of an overstatement.  However, the generals of the Seanchan are very competent.  Can they match Ituralde and Mat?  We'll see.

 

As for the attack on the White Tower, your guess is as good as mine.  It seems likely that it will be an aerial assault.  In this case, it will probably be a quick surprise strike at night, and I propose a to'raken and sul'dam/damane.

[Mr Ares]

Can they match Ituralde and Mat?

Remember that Mat has technological advantages, as well as his not inconsiderable abilitites as a General. Matching him will thus require figuring out the capabilities of his toys, a problem that wouldn't be faced against any of the other great captains (the reverse, in fact - they would have to adapt to the Seanchan beasties).

 

Where are they coming from, this great airborne force? How many thousands of miles do they have to travel and remain unseen or be unsuspected?

Coming over the Caralain Grass (a very unpopulated area), removes the problem of being seen.

 

I wonder at all the significance given it in this and other threads I've noted in the years I've been here.

People find it an interesting topic.

 

if it happens, it will be a short, minimum consequence piece of the story

Maybe, maybe not.

[Auld Manriva]

[quote author=Mr Ares link=topic=34794.msg915597#msg915597 date=1221318884

Where are they coming from, this great airborne force? How many thousands of miles do they have to travel and remain unseen or be unsuspected?

Coming over the Caralain Grass (a very unpopulated area), removes the problem of being seen.

Not exactly, but I won't argue that point. Getting to the Caralain Grass presents a whole new raft of problems. Greater distance, flying over the Mts. of Mist, not that great a number of beasts in Tarabon where they would likely originate just for starters. If coming from Altara you cross populated areas before getting to the Grasslands.

 

I wonder at all the significance given it in this and other threads I've noted in the years I've been here.

People find it an interesting topic.

I'm eternally grateful, that never occurred to me

 

if it happens, it will be a short, minimum consequence piece of the story

Maybe, maybe not.

Give You Joy! Quite cogent, succinct and to the point.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Can they match Ituralde and Mat?

Remember that Mat has technological advantages, as well as his not inconsiderable abilitites as a General. Matching him will thus require figuring out the capabilities of his toys, a problem that wouldn't be faced against any of the other great captains (the reverse, in fact - they would have to adapt to the Seanchan beasties).

Let's face it. Mat is bound to turn out to be the best general seen in the Age. That's what RJ appears to have set him up as. (That's just my opinion lest anyone get upset).

 

Add that to his luck, his ta'varenness (sp.), and his new toys ... Well. He's going to be a tough proposition for any general.

[Hybrid]

Not exactly, but I won't argue that point. Getting to the Caralain Grass presents a whole new raft of problems. Greater distance, flying over the Mts. of Mist, not that great a number of beasts in Tarabon where they would likely originate just for starters. If coming from Altara you cross populated areas before getting to the Grasslands.

Actually, the force would probably rebase to Tarabon before moving north and east.  Obviously.  Even if they did take a direct route from Altara, they would do so under cover of night, and I doubt anyone would immediately decide that it was an assault force on the White Tower in any case.

 

I'm eternally grateful, that never occurred to me

Then why question the amount of discussion this topic has generated?

 

As for Mat, I was not suggesting that the Seanchan generals will be able to match Mat.  Mat has much more experience (at least in his memories) as well as the cannons.  I was simply telling Auld Manriva to give the Seanchan their due.

[dwntempo]

Just a crazy theory that is probably been said somewhere in the forum already:

 

The Seanchan attack on the WT turns out to be Mat getting the horn for the last battle. The attack also allows Egwene to take control and unify the WT.  Mat's connection to Tuon, Rand, and Egwene sets up the truce needed for the LB.

 

Im sure it is completely off base but it has been on odd thought rolling around in my mind for a while.

[Luckers]

Firstly, Auld Manriva, alot of your issues seem to have been answered on page two of this thread in the tenth post down. The facts are this--we know that the Seanchan are going to attack the Tower, and that that assault has already begun, and could begin as soon as the very night of the last scene we witnessed Egwene was in. Check it out.

 

The Seanchan are significantly weakened by recent setbacks against Rand, Mat,Ituralde and a warning from Perrin to steer clear of Ghealdon,that they would be barely able to mount any significant attack on the WT.

 

The Seanchan have thousands of damane, who would be the main proponant in this attack. Barely 6,000 normal soldiers would be engaged.

 

Beyond that however, including losses in recent engagements the Seanchan still maintain standing armies only rivalled by the Aiel. Recruitment from conquered lands have been heavy, and i very much doubt that the Seanchan did not send at least 400,000 soldiers between the Hailene and the Corenne. The history of the Consolidation would not have allowed anything else.

 

The Seanchan are needed, in case anyone missed it, to assist at TG. Rand needs to have them corralled at least so he can concentrate, which he was in the process of doing at the end of KoD (a real meet with Tuon). This is a meet he'd better watch out for too. That little hellion thinks he is supposed to kneel to the Crystal Throne. They have control of Altara, Amadecia and only barely control some of Tarrabon since Ituralde rampaged. So having control of a fraction of Randland much less nearly half the known world is "all they got" (Seanchan itself is not even under control atm). They don't have much of a bargaining position... and again, personally I think what they have is what they have. No more support from across the ocean. The land divided is pretty much a done deal so far as I can see. Now it's just keeping the bloodthirsty, superstitious cretins bottled up and lending a hand to defeat Ol' Beezlebub.

 

Control was reassurted in Tarabon almost immediately. Interulde's actions were in effect spitting at the Seanchan in order to make them so angry they fell into his trap.

 

And the have standing armies that rival Rands, as well as the largest militarized group of channelers in the Westlands--by a significant amount.

 

I feel that this logic is flawed.  How can 'a great battle' as you term Dumai's Well's, with no reference in any prophecies or foretellings, be equal in magnitude to The Last Battle.

 

It can't be, but it doesn't have to be either. Nothing requires the great battle to equal Tarmon Gai'don--which again I'll point out is not going to be a battle.

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but nowhere do I remember anything revolving around Dumai's Well's in the way of prophecies or foretellings.  The Last Battle, however has many references.  The Last Battle has been built up from the beginning.  Additionally, the last battle is what will directly decide the fate of all of Randland.  In stating that The Great Battle as termed in the foretelling is Dumai's Wells suggests that you believe the last battle to be of lesser importance.

 

Um... no, I don't.

 

In suggesting that the events, as outlined are far removed from one another, would in my opinion be overlooking the fact that it's one foretelling rolled into a swift delivery by Nicola.

 

It was spoken all together, that does not mean it will occur altogether, as indeed we know to be fact since the land being divided by the return has nothing to do with the Asha'men equaling the Aes Sedai, or Rand's situations with his love quartet, or the Great Battle.

 

The sentencing, by the way, is stacato, not flowing. The sentencing alone seperates each of Niccola's particular foretellings from the others.

 

There is no reason to believe that the when is so far removed as the ammount of time that has lapsed since Dumai's wells.  None.

 

Well, most of it wasn't that far removed from Dumai's Well's--at the exact time Dumai's Well's occured the Return began in full force, and the Asha'men moved out into the open in direct opposition of the Aes Sedai and Rand hooked up with Min finally completeing the love quartet. Not that I have an issue with them being removed in time--which clearly they must since Rand certainly has as yet to die and yet live.

 

Even previous prophecies or foretellings when presented to us coincide events, when depicted, to work in such a way as to not leave that much time inbetween.

 

Oh? I don't think you've really thought that through. Egwene has sequences of dreams that refer to different events all in the one sitting. Min has tons of visions that refer to different events all in the one glance. And foretellings? Elaida's and Gitara's both referred to one thing only in the only ones we know of, and... oh yes, Lidya refers to a sequence of events that take place over several months in one sitting. And Desandre? Her foretellings covered events for four thousand years. Including things that occured over time. For instance--he binds Asmodean to his will, and nearly three months later leads the spears to war once more. Or try, he thrusts his sword into the Heart of the Stone of Tear and over a year later Narishma draws it out and follows after--all spoken in the same sentence.

 

 

For what reason would you have a prophecy about Dumai's wells, or with a reference to it, and the rest unrelated?  Above and beyond all that.  Where has Dumai's well's ever been referenced to in similar terms?  The Great Battle.  The Last Battle.  Tarmon Gai'don.

 

The rest is unrelated to each other as well... what has the Seanchan invasion to do with the Asha'men equaling the Aes Sedai? What has either to do with Rand's love quartet, or him dying and living again? You have a sequence of unrelated predictions here.

 

As for your final point, Tarmon Gai'don will not be a battle, for all that its named so. My guess is that its an issue thats lost in translation. Beyond that i see no need for Dumai's Wells to have been previously referenced.

 

 

Ok.  Just to clarify something, you took my naming of specific battle's too literally.  I listed a couple off the top of my head.  I agree that Dumai's Well's had a very significant impact.  Many battles did.  As to cultural impact, one I listed was Rand's battle with Asmo.  I think you can guess what I would say about that one and the Aiel. 

 

I can't really. Whatever impact to Rhuidean, that confrontation does not equal the social ramifications of Dumai's Well's. The first true One Power battle since the Trolloc Wars. The first open act of male channelers united since the breaking, the first open confrontation between Aiel and Aes Sedai, ever. The first Aes Sedai to swear fealty, ever.

 

The ramifications of that battle exceeds any event in the books to date with the possible exception of the Cleansing, which in itself was not a battle, so i doubt that would be a player in the field.

 

Now, let's step back to the point of my original statement.  Immagine the great battle being one that Matt was involved in, or the one with Sammael.  If Sammael had killed him, all would be lost.  If just one of those had failed, all would have failed.  The true reason that Tarmon Gai'don stands apart is because it's been built up in the books constantly with additional prophecy and foretelling.  After all the battle's are done, and you said to a randlander; "Do you remember The Great Battle?"  What do you think the response is going to be?  Dumai's Well's?  *grin*

 

If asked now, yes. In fact its already been refered to as such several times. Siuan brings news to Egwene of a great battle fought in the east with the One Power, the Ajahs discuss the rumours of a great battle fought that are brought to them by eyes and ears. RJ himself spend the final page of LoC waxing lyrical about the 'day of blood and fire and the One Power' with the phrase 'and the world was changed forever.'

 

I'm not saying you're Daft Luckers.  I respect your opinion and knowledge.  I do feel that you are holding onto Dumai's Well's unreasonably, despite your extensive knowledge on WoT.  If you can tie in why those 4 people are on a boat so far ahead of Dumai's Well's to support that theory I'll be the first to change my mind.  You havent provided this yet, and I doubt anything solid exists.  It could, and to tell you the truth if it does I'll be even more pleased than you to see it

 

With all due respect, I'm not trying to. That's your argumental point, and one i disagree with. I see no reason to rationalize the varience in time, not when the event with the four in a boat is already distant from the Return.

 

Guerilla campaigns that wiped out tens of thousands unless I my calculator broke... They don't have unlimited numbers any longer and their "military geniuses have been such geniuses so far. They've done SQUAT if not in a surprise attack or Blitskrieg situation.... Perrin gave them Aiel Wise Ones as damane. They've had trouble with Seafolk channelers, do you think Aiel will be any easier? Word of Perrin will spread, his warning may be treated as a bluff or minimalized but.... another mistake they cannot afford.

 

Tens of thousands from hundreds of thousands, and them recruiting new forces every day--with significant effect.

 

They've replaced what they've lost and more.

 

It's not obvious. Likely for sure but not obvious. Foretellings even dream interpretations are said time and again as what could or is likely, not certain. The evidence you refer to could be interpreted just as well as another attack against Illian. Which IS indicated from reports to Rand.

 

Actually Foretellings, like Min's visions, always come true, it is only dreams that represent possible futures.

 

You don't think impaling folks (or their heads) on spikes is bloodthirsty? And I never said they were Darkfriends, they "clearly" are not. Just bloodthirsty, "do as we say or your noggin' is forfeit", superstitious cretins. And THAT is as appropriate a derisive term as any other. It's meant as an insult, a jibe, an affront, invective... a low blow, for all love.. not a specific description of them... 

 

The Seanchan are actually incredibly reasonable--not in the degree of their response, their laws and penalties are firm, even harsh, but they are incredibly fair. Mat himself notes that several of the heads on those pikes belonged to Seanchan soldiers. That's not being bloodthirsty, thats militant law. They arn't superstitious in the enacting of their laws.

 

Rand's major struggle in Cairhein and Tear were enacting laws even remotely as free and equal--and the laws he enacted included hangings, which means they are just as harsh.

 

Breaking Wise Ones should be quite easy if the Seanchan figures out the trick. Shame.

 

Of course, the Aiels code of pride and shame is quite a challenge for an outsider to figure out, so it might take some time...

 

Mmm. And i don't see the Seanchan ever trying things that might be done to a da'tsang. I'm actually looking forward to see how that plays out--of all the channelers the Seanchan have captured, the Aiel Wise ones strike me as being the strongest willed and the most capable of resisting. The Three Fold Land shaped them well, even the Shaido.

 

We haven't actually seen them in action (on screen), on any great scale, apart from Galgan. Are they great? Maybe.

 

We havn't seen them in action on screen--but we know for them to have gathered the commands they currently hold they had to have proven themselves--Karede's thoughts in reguards to the nature of Seanchan military history shows that.

 

Put another way, we've never seen Agelmar fight, but know him to be accounted great. The same logic applies to the Seanchan high command--more to the point, the thing that makes the Westland Great Captains great is the way they go about battle--being the careful and intelligent consideration of whats gone wrong and how to address it, which is something that EVERY seanchan general is supposed to do, and which we have seen in action.

 

Yes, I agree, Surprise IS a great strategy. My point is that other than that they've not had much in the way of positive results in other campaigns (in Randland). I've not said they are beaten, just weakened substantially. Through losses in manpower and material, the loss of support from the Homeland etc. Ituralde has his own plans and backup plans for the forces chasing him north into Arad Doman. If that set to comes to pass (and I'm not so sure it will, Rand's peace/temp. truce plans may cause a halt) we'll see what geniuses they are.

 

Well, again, they've more than replaced what they've lost, so they havn't been 'weakened'.

 

As for the attack on the White Tower, your guess is as good as mine.  It seems likely that it will be an aerial assault.  In this case, it will probably be a quick surprise strike at night, and I propose a to'raken and sul'dam/damane.

 

Yes, we know that for a fact.

 

Where are they coming from, this great airborne force? How many thousands of miles do they have to travel and remain unseen or be unsuspected?

 

I addressed that--please read page two of this thread for full details.

 

Not exactly, but I won't argue that point. Getting to the Caralain Grass presents a whole new raft of problems. Greater distance, flying over the Mts. of Mist, not that great a number of beasts in Tarabon where they would likely originate just for starters. If coming from Altara you cross populated areas before getting to the Grasslands.

 

By Galgan and Yulan's command all to'raken were gathered for the attack some time ago, Tarbon is an easy option for an assualt. Beyond that the distance is not really greater than from any other staging point in Seanchan held lands, and lends the safety of avoiding notice. Also crossing the Mountains of Mist is not an issue if they proceed through the break in the mountains just north of Tarabon in the Almoth Plain (the same break Verin and the others used to ride to the Tower).

 

Actually, the force would probably rebase to Tarabon before moving north and east.  Obviously.  Even if they did take a direct route from Altara, they would do so under cover of night, and I doubt anyone would immediately decide that it was an assault force on the White Tower in any case.

 

They already have been rebased. Seriously--did no one read my post on page two? I went to great effort to find all those quotes. (that wasn't really directed at you Hybrid, just me muttering. Lol).

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I wonder at all the significance given it in this and other threads I've noted in the years I've been here.

People find it an interesting topic.

I'm eternally grateful, that never occurred to me

Well, we can't all be as brilliant as me.

 

if it happens, it will be a short, minimum consequence piece of the story

Maybe, maybe not.

Give You Joy! Quite cogent, succinct and to the point.

Give me joy? Well, why not? Give me joy! Give me lots of joy! Where joy is not available, cash will be accepted as a substitute.

 

The Seanchan attack on the WT turns out to be Mat getting the horn for the last battle.

Why would the Seanchan be getting the Horn for Mat? Or with Mat? All things considered (already making plans for an attack on the WT, importance of leashing marath'damane, the AS superweapon, etc.) the Seanchan have plenty of reason to go, and we have plenty of evidence saying they will. Why add Mat to the equation?

[Luckers]

Well, we can't all be as brilliant as me.

 

Which, if you think about it, doesn't mean you're all that brilliant.

 

:p

 

Seriously though, calm down both of you.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

We haven't actually seen them in action (on screen), on any great scale, apart from Galgan. Are they great? Maybe.

We haven't seen them in action on screen--but we know for them to have gathered the commands they currently hold they had to have proven themselves--Karede's thoughts in reguards to the nature of Seanchan military history shows that.

The point I was making that, we haven't really been exposed to Seanchan thinking in terms of their military leadership. Very few POVs regarding military commanders. The few that we have had have shown us that they appear to be very capable. Added to the history/lore of the Ever Victorious Army, well.

Put another way, we've never seen Agelmar fight, but know him to be accounted great. The same logic applies to the Seanchan high command--more to the point, the thing that makes the Westland Great Captains great is the way they go about battle--being the careful and intelligent consideration of whats gone wrong and how to address it, which is something that EVERY seanchan general is supposed to do, and which we have seen in action.

Yep. However, if every Seanchan general had done the same ... well, Rand'd probably have bent knee to the throne by now.

 

My point is, to suggest that the Seanchan would have a collection of great captains is, in my opinion, a leap of faith. That is not to say that they aren't very good at what they do.

 

Will they give Mat (or Bashere etc.) problems along the way? Of course. Will they outgeneral Cauthon? I seriously doubt it.

[Sabio]

No doubt they are highly capable, we saw in Path of Daggers how they treat incompetence in the military.  Not sure since we don't know alot about their society but it seems to be a Seanchan general you need to know what you are doing and not like in many of the nations of Randland where its by if you are a noble or not.

[Luckers]

We haven't actually seen them in action (on screen), on any great scale, apart from Galgan. Are they great? Maybe.

We haven't seen them in action on screen--but we know for them to have gathered the commands they currently hold they had to have proven themselves--Karede's thoughts in reguards to the nature of Seanchan military history shows that.

The point I was making that, we haven't really been exposed to Seanchan thinking in terms of their military leadership. Very few POVs regarding military commanders. The few that we have had have shown us that they appear to be very capable. Added to the history/lore of the Ever Victorious Army, well.

Put another way, we've never seen Agelmar fight, but know him to be accounted great. The same logic applies to the Seanchan high command--more to the point, the thing that makes the Westland Great Captains great is the way they go about battle--being the careful and intelligent consideration of whats gone wrong and how to address it, which is something that EVERY seanchan general is supposed to do, and which we have seen in action.

Yep. However, if every Seanchan general had done the same ... well, Rand'd probably have bent knee to the throne by now.

 

My point is, to suggest that the Seanchan would have a collection of great captains is, in my opinion, a leap of faith. That is not to say that they aren't very good at what they do.

 

Will they give Mat (or Bashere etc.) problems along the way? Of course. Will they outgeneral Cauthon? I seriously doubt it.

 

Well, we have actually seen Seanchan military leadership in action, and we do actually know that every Seanchan general is required to do the 'intensive consideration of what went wrong so we might avoid doing the same in the future'. In point of fact EVERY seanchan official is required to put their mind to failures. Here's the quotes.

 

He had been raised banner-general for his small success in the battles with Asha'men in days when there were few had achieved any, and now, because he had commanded against men who could channel, some thought that meant he had wisdom to share on fighting marath'damane. No one had had to do that in centuries, but since the so-called Aes Sedai had revealed their unknown weapon a few leagues from where he sat a great deal of thought had been put into how to cripple their power.

 

That was not the only request litering his table. Aside from the usual run of requisitions and reports that needed his signature, his comments on the forces arrayed against them in Illian had been solicited by four lords and three ladies, and on the special Aiel problem by six ladies and five lords.But those questions would be decided elsewhere, had probably already been decided. His observations would only be used in the infighting over who controlled what after the return.

 

[CoT - The Tale of a Doll - pgs 154 and 155]

 

What we have is a military backed by a government dedicated to the concept of fixing what went wrong--you imply Rand should have knelt by now had they true proficiency, but in truth they have only faced Rand twice, and in both situations dealt with military realities they didn't understand--the horn and traveling. For that matter the same holds for Mat with the crossbow crank.

 

But, by nature, when such events happen they turn their entire beuracracy to studying the issue. And yes, alot of that is pure crap, as Karede himself alludes too.

 

Will they ever outgeneral Mat. No way. But are they equal to the likes of Interulde and Bashere--yes, i reckon they are. Galgan, Yulan, Karede... all of them display the same careful consideration, the same eye for detail as the great captains. Cadsuane herself commented directly on this reality.

 

A collection of great captains? The continent has had a military history that make Westlands wars look like kids fighting over a toy. Yes, I definately think they would have captains as brilliant and tried as the westland great captains, and yes i definately think they'd have come along for the Return.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

My point about it being a device to cement Egwene as Amyrlin is that if it happens, it will be a short, minimum consequence piece of the story and as such I wonder at all the significance given it in this and other threads I've noted in the years I've been here.

 

I must disagree there. The White Tower has never before been ravaged by an enemy force. Of course this may not strictly happen but the possibility exists. This is more than a minimum contribution to the plot.

[Cockta]

There has been groups of trollocs and myrdraal who have managed to get past the gates, and were going crazy in the streets of Tar Valon in the War against the Shadow.

[Hybrid]

Yep. However, if every Seanchan general had done the same ... well, Rand'd probably have bent knee to the throne by now.

Not true.  The Seanchan display a knowledge of conquering nations.  That is, they entrench long enough to defeat much of the resistance.  Rand also has a number of tricks on his hands, Traveling and the Asha'man being two of them.  Those two alone caused the Seanchan much grief in TPOD.  However, the fact that the Seanchan were able to roll right over the defenses of Altara, Tarabon, and Amadicia (especially Amadicia) suggests to me that they are just as good as their reputation.

 

My point is, to suggest that the Seanchan would have a collection of great captains is, in my opinion, a leap of faith. That is not to say that they aren't very good at what they do.

It seems to me to be downright silly for there to only be great captains in Randland, and not in Seanchan, a large continent with a major military history.  It also seems silly to presume the Seanchan would not send some of their best captains to undertake the great retaking of an entire continent.

 

Will they give Mat (or Bashere etc.) problems along the way? Of course. Will they outgeneral Cauthon? I seriously doubt it.

There are two reasons that Mat can outgeneral the Seanchan.

1) He has more experience than any general at any time due to his memories as well as an active and clever mind.

2) Cannons.

[DemandredFO]

Also, just because the Seanchan haven't done a blitzkrieg across Randland doesn't mean they aren't great captains.  Compared to other similar forces they are probably moving quickly.  From when we heard that Tanchico had fallen to now has only been a few months, I think, Luckers or someone will no doubt correct me.  They steamrolled Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara in that time; and despite what Rand did to them in TPOD they are still coming.  Also there are more logistical problems I would think for a force like.  If they had modern weapons and there were no Ashaman they undoubtedly would be moving faster.  That my 2cents

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

We haven't seen them in action on screen--but we know for them to have gathered the commands they currently hold they had to have proven themselves--Karede's thoughts in reguards to the nature of Seanchan military history shows that.

Right. So they’re very good and they’re promoted on merit? I’ve never argued against that.

Well, we have actually seen Seanchan military leadership in action, and we do actually know that every Seanchan general is required to do the 'intensive consideration of what went wrong so we might avoid doing the same in the future'. In point of fact EVERY seanchan official is required to put their mind to failures.

When?

 

I recall seeing Galgan a handful of times. We’ve also seen Karede, but all he was doing was supplying the quotes below. All I remember from other Seanchan generals is not command, but rather thought about an issue. I maintain, we haven’t seen the high command in action. We’ve heard about it, but we haven’t seen enough of it.

He had been raised banner-general for his small success in the battles with Asha'men in days when there were few had achieved any

Right, so he’s been raised because he won (small victories) when others didn’t. Hardly revolutionary.

and now, because he had commanded against men who could channel, some thought that meant he had wisdom to share on fighting marath'damane.

His contemporaries are asking how he did it. Again, hardly revolutionary.

No one had had to do that in centuries, but since the so-called Aes Sedai had revealed their unknown weapon a few leagues from where he sat a great deal of thought had been put into how to cripple their power.

They’re thinking about how to deal with the superweapon that is an unraveling weave. Wow. I seem to recall the rebel Aes Sedai thinking about how to deal with the “Forsakens Weapon” that was the Chodean Kal during the Cleansing. Do they count as Great Captains too?

That was not the only request litering his table. Aside from the usual run of requisitions and reports that needed his signature, his comments on the forces arrayed against them in Illian had been solicited by four lords and three ladies, and on the special Aiel problem by six ladies and five lords.But those questions would be decided elsewhere, had probably already been decided. His observations would only be used in the infighting over who controlled what after the return.

Right. All this shows, to me, is that the system is broken. He clearly thinks that it’s a waste of his time. So, Seanchan generals get moved around the political board, just like every other Seanchan. Apologies, but that’s a downside in my view.

you imply Rand should have knelt by now had they true proficiency, but in truth they have only faced Rand twice

Right, and that, as I’m sure you are aware, was a very glib statement on my part.

But, by nature, when such events happen they turn their entire beuracracy to studying the issue. And yes, alot of that is pure crap, as Karede himself alludes too.

OK. Where’s the Seanchan innovation? Given that they spend all their time thinking about how to correct mistakes, where are the corrections? How has Seanchan strategy evolved? They’ve been beaten heavily at Falme and later on by Bashere, Rand and the Asha’men. They’d, surely, be looking at innovating now, right?

 

We’ve seen plenty of innovation on Rands side: Mat’s crossbows. Mat’s intergration of the Band of the Hand. Mat and Bashere forming the Legion of the Dragon (old fighting style). Rands formation of the Black Tower. Aludras prototype artillery, etc, etc.

 

If the Seanchan are so good at absorbing lessons, at doing what needs to be done, where is it? Their Ever Victorious Army has been bloodied; this is the time where they need to be doing something.

Will they ever outgeneral Mat. No way. But are they equal to the likes of Interulde and Bashere--yes, i reckon they are. Galgan, Yulan, Karede... all of them display the same careful consideration, the same eye for detail as the great captains.

Which is exactly what I said in an earlier post. Mat’s clearly set up by RJ as the best, does that mean that the Seanchan won’t give Bashere et al trouble? No. Of course there’ll be a real challenge.

Cadsuane herself commented directly on this reality.

When did she comment? I’m not being difficult, I can’t recall.

A collection of great captains? The continent has had a military history that make Westlands wars look like kids fighting over a toy. Yes, I definately think they would have captains as brilliant and tried as the westland great captains, and yes i definately think they'd have come along for the Return.

But, my point still stands in my view: We haven’t seen it happen, and therefore it is conjecture. Everything points to the fact that they’ll be very, very good. But until they clash with the Great Captains, well, we don’t know. Of course there will be GCs among the Seanchan, but a lot? Maybe.

 

However, the fact that the Seanchan were able to roll right over the defenses of Altara, Tarabon, and Amadicia (especially Amadicia) suggests to me that they are just as good as their reputation.

The Seanchan invasion of Altara and Tarabon came at a time when there was no major organized body to oppose them, right? So, a well organized, huge, armed force (with unprecedented numbers of channelers) and revolutionary tactics, wipes out all comers in battle. It manages to do this in two states that are wracked by civil conflict and generally a total mess, had no channelers, and were generally in a state of chaos.

 

Well, excuse me. If they had lost, I’d be wondering what was going on.

 

Amadicia. Yeah, that’s a little different. However, the blitzkrieg won it for them, they seem to have struck right at the Fortress of Light and cut off the head of the beast. Excellent.

 

I must admit, I was shocked when Amadicia was swallowed up so quickly. However, there were few, if any, channelers to combat the Suldam (due to the legal status of Aes Sedai/the Whitecloaks) and the Seanchan appeared to have taken out the CotL asap. Well, that makes sense.

It seems to me to be downright silly for there to only be great captains in Randland, and not in Seanchan, a large continent with a major military history.  It also seems silly to presume the Seanchan would not send some of their best captains to undertake the great retaking of an entire continent.

OK. I won’t take offense at the “silly” comment.

 

I’ve never stated that Randland has the monopoly on Great Captains.

 

My point was, to think that they have a lot of Great Captains is a little over the top in my opinion. Bare with me here:

 

Think of the US armed forces of WW2. A huge number of men, right? Name the Great Captains. What, Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley? OK. Even they had their detractors. Eisenhower was seen as too cautious, Patton too brash. OK, Bradley seems to have done very well to escape much criticism at all. Moving on to the Germans. Von Manstein, Guderain, Rommel? Guderain, politically incompetent, though a good general (pioneer of Blitzkreig), Rommel, fantastic on a divisional level, but struggled with logistical matters. Von Manstein? Possibly the best general of WW2. Orchestrated the German withdrawal from Russia.

 

So there we have it. Two of the most prominent armed forces in WW2, arguably you’ve got say 6 or 7 generals between the two (obviously, I picked a handful) who might be considered great. Given that Germany between 1935 and 1945 had around 18,000,000 men under arms … and they produced maybe 3 or 4 great generals during WW2 …. Well, excuse me if I am a little skeptical re. hordes of Seanchan Great Captains coming riding over the horizon. … Unless, of course there are around 18,000,000 Seanchan soldiers…

 

All the talk about “a large continent with a major military history” well, here’s my answer, so what? What slight bit of difference does that make?

 

I’m a Brit. Love us or hate us, half the world was controlled by the British at one stage controlled by guns and a formidable army and navy. But…..in terms of great captains?  During the Napoleonic Wars we had Nelson and Wellington. During the First World War, we had none. During the Second World War we had Slim, Wavell, possibly Montgomery. Now? No idea.

 

The point? It’s all to do with the time. Saying “They’ve got a great military history therefore they’ll have loads of good generals” is a falsehood. It all depends on the current crop of generals.

 

Can Seanchan generals benefit from the history of the Empire, absolutely. They’ll also be veterans of a lot of conflict. But so what? There have been plenty of incompetent generals throughout history. Google Paulus, a German general of WW2. The only German Fieldmarshal to surrender. He was awful. Yet he was a fieldmarshal.

There are two reasons that Mat can outgeneral the Seanchan.

1) He has more experience than any general at any time due to his memories as well as an active and clever mind.

2) Cannons.

Yep, with the former being the main factor in my opinion.

[Luckers]

There has been groups of trollocs and myrdraal who have managed to get past the gates, and were going crazy in the streets of Tar Valon in the War against the Shadow.

 

Mmm, and forces attempting to free Guire Amalasan actually reached the Tower itself.

 

But none have ever threatened the Tower. Breaching the defenses, and actually bringing a fight to the Aes Sedai capable of defeating them are two different things.

 

Quote

Well, we have actually seen Seanchan military leadership in action, and we do actually know that every Seanchan general is required to do the 'intensive consideration of what went wrong so we might avoid doing the same in the future'. In point of fact EVERY seanchan official is required to put their mind to failures.

 

When?

 

I provided a quote showing this reality.

 

I recall seeing Galgan a handful of times. We’ve also seen Karede, but all he was doing was supplying the quotes below. All I remember from other Seanchan generals is not command, but rather thought about an issue. I maintain, we haven’t seen the high command in action. We’ve heard about it, but we haven’t seen enough of it.

 

What? My comment was specifically that when they encounter a failure they--as in all Seanchan officials--are required to put their minds to the issue of correcting it--that by nature is a function of thought.

 

Beyond that i don't understand the point your making--what does seeing the high command in action have to do with addressing the way that they function in the result of failure? We know for a fact how they react, because we have seen it, and i quoted it to you. And indeed we know that involved the high command just as much as the low since both Galgan and Yulan were involved in the matter. What more need we have seen? They are doing it, end of story...

 

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He had been raised banner-general for his small success in the battles with Asha'men in days when there were few had achieved any

 

Right, so he’s been raised because he won (small victories) when others didn’t. Hardly revolutionary.

 

Quote

and now, because he had commanded against men who could channel, some thought that meant he had wisdom to share on fighting marath'damane.

 

His contemporaries are asking how he did it. Again, hardly revolutionary.

 

Quote

No one had had to do that in centuries, but since the so-called Aes Sedai had revealed their unknown weapon a few leagues from where he sat a great deal of thought had been put into how to cripple their power.

 

They’re thinking about how to deal with the superweapon that is an unraveling weave. Wow. I seem to recall the rebel Aes Sedai thinking about how to deal with the “Forsakens Weapon” that was the Chodean Kal during the Cleansing. Do they count as Great Captains too?

 

Quote

That was not the only request litering his table. Aside from the usual run of requisitions and reports that needed his signature, his comments on the forces arrayed against them in Illian had been solicited by four lords and three ladies, and on the special Aiel problem by six ladies and five lords.But those questions would be decided elsewhere, had probably already been decided. His observations would only be used in the infighting over who controlled what after the return.

 

Right. All this shows, to me, is that the system is broken. He clearly thinks that it’s a waste of his time. So, Seanchan generals get moved around the political board, just like every other Seanchan. Apologies, but that’s a downside in my view.

 

Ummm... what?

 

I'm not sure you understood what i was saying--i wasn't proffering that as proof of their talent, i was proffering it as proof of their valuing military efficiency. All of your comments seem to address what that says about actual ability, which has nothing to do with what i was saying--and which I've actually already said in that post. Here: "alot of that is pure crap, as Karede himself alludes too."

 

But, as that full sentence states, the effectiveness of that beuracracy is irrelevant--thats just lords covering their butts. But those actually in charge do it properly, and not just for show, which Karede's thoughts show. The implications of what that says about Seanchan views on studying and enacting military policy IS very relevant. Cadsuane and Rand cover it best, I think.

 

"I've been talking to Alivia about the Seanchan." [Rand] said. "They call their army the Ever Victorious Army for a reason. It's never lost a war. Battles, yes, but never a war. When they lose a battle they sit down and figure out what they did wrong, or what an enemy did right, and then they change what needs changing for them to win.

 

"A wise way," she said when the flow of words paused. Plainly he expected some comment. "I know men who do the same. Davram Bashere, for one. Gareth Bryne, Rodel Interulde, Agelmar Jagad. Even Pedron Niall did, when he was alive. All judged great captains."

 

"Yes," he said, still pacing. He did not look at her, perhaps did not see her. It was to be hoped that he actually heard, as well. "Five men, all great captains. The Seanchan all do that. That's been their way for a thousand years. They change what they have to change, but they don't give up.

 

[CoT: Ornaments - pgs 541 & 542]

 

And Rand's right, they do exactly that, which we've seen in action. And Cadsuane I think relates the obvious significance of that.

 

OK. Where’s the Seanchan innovation? Given that they spend all their time thinking about how to correct mistakes, where are the corrections? How has Seanchan strategy evolved? They’ve been beaten heavily at Falme and later on by Bashere, Rand and the Asha’men. They’d, surely, be looking at innovating now, right?

 

Well, we witness it directly in PoD. They're stumped at first, and can't deal with the method of attack because they don't understand it, but they react swiftly enough. Here's Bashere's comments about that.

 

"You aren't

thinking straight. That was a good plan, in the beginning, but their general thinks fast. He spread out to blunt our attacks before we could fall on him spread out marching."

 

[PoD: A Time for Iron]

 

And thats just reactive. Since they they've dedicated themselves to considering the method of attack, and ways to address it. It would not work again--would not have even really worked then.

 

We’ve seen plenty of innovation on Rands side: Mat’s crossbows. Mat’s intergration of the Band of the Hand. Mat and Bashere forming the Legion of the Dragon (old fighting style). Rands formation of the Black Tower. Aludras prototype artillery, etc, etc.

 

If the Seanchan are so good at absorbing lessons, at doing what needs to be done, where is it? Their Ever Victorious Army has been bloodied; this is the time where they need to be doing something.

 

They are. Karede shows that directly they are considering the issue of invading Illian, and how to face travelling forces. Just because they have not deployed it yet doesn't mean they've havn't been active.

 

But, my point still stands in my view: We haven’t seen it happen, and therefore it is conjecture. Everything points to the fact that they’ll be very, very good. But until they clash with the Great Captains, well, we don’t know. Of course there will be GCs among the Seanchan, but a lot? Maybe.

 

Except thats exactly the point i was making--we have not seen it, but we know it through their methodology--which is well stated. But yes, beyond that we saw Karede deal with Bashere's plan, did we not? And he would have won by Bashere's own statement. We've seen Yulan's plan, as daring and brilliant as anything Mat's come up with.

 

All the talk about “a large continent with a major military history” well, here’s my answer, so what? What slight bit of difference does that make?

 

Every bit. For more than two thousand years the Seanchan continent was embroiled in war--until Luthair came it was a chaotic slugfest where no one came out on top. Luthair's arrival began the consolidation which was successful for two reasons--one, damane, and two, the military ideology with which the Ever Victorious Army conducted their campeigns.

 

The fact that they were at war constantly is irrelevant--the way in which peace was made, the methodology employed to make it possible, and the current appreciation of that methodology IS relevant, and does make them, as Cadsuane and Rand point out, a society that as a function of normal procedure does exactly what the 'Great Captains' do that made them great.

 

Can Seanchan generals benefit from the history of the Empire, absolutely. They’ll also be veterans of a lot of conflict. But so what? There have been plenty of incompetent generals throughout history. Google Paulus, a German general of WW2. The only German Fieldmarshal to surrender. He was awful. Yet he was a fieldmarshal.

 

Which is exactly the point. An incompetant general would not hold a position of high authority amongst the Seanchan--the way they go about war makes that clear, and we see it in the field when Karede summarily kills an incompotent commander.

 

Yes, we've never directly seen it in play, but we've seen enough to know its there.

[RAND AL THOR]

omg

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I provided a quote showing this reality.

No you didn't. You provided a quote showing a man thinking about the fact that he was getting pushed for input.

What? My comment was specifically that when they encounter a failure they--as in all Seanchan officials--are required to put their minds to the issue of correcting it--that by nature is a function of thought.

Right, and Karede, one of their best, is, talking about the way in which the Seanchan are dealing with the failure. None of which is particularily exciting.

 

Wow. They discussed what to do when they encountered Elayne's unravelling weave... Great.

Beyond that i don't understand the point your making--what does seeing the high command in action have to do with addressing the way that they function in the result of failure?

It has everything to do with it. Those in command are those who will deal with any failure. They're the ones who will take the battle to Rand, dealing with mistakes along the way.

 

Once again, I believe the only one we have seen (while he deals with failure/a set back) is Galgan. He seems competent.

We know for a fact how they react, because we have seen it, and i quoted it to you.

Right ... that's it? That's the learning from their mistakes? A bunch of lords and ladies asking questions (the answers to which the general himself admits will be used for anything concrete) and, presumably, other officers asking him.

 

Excuse me, but again, that doesn't seem all that wonderful.

And indeed we know that involved the high command just as much as the low since both Galgan and Yulan were involved in the matter. What more need we have seen? They are doing it, end of story...

I really don't understand your point here. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

They're not adopting anything new, they're reverting to type, they've used airborne troops before and will do again. Yes, it's audacious, but that's about it. In the later conversation with Suroth, we see Galgan reacting to Ituralde, and later Mat. They're he's not "learning" at that stage, he's reacting.

I'm not sure you understood what i was saying--i wasn't proffering that as proof of their talent, i was proffering it as proof of their valuing military efficiency. All of your comments seem to address what that says about actual ability, which has nothing to do with what i was saying--and which I've actually already said in that post. Here: "alot of that is pure crap, as Karede himself alludes too."

Right, so you posted something to show their military efficency ... When actually, it contains a few lines in which the general shows his irritation at the situation. Given that the quote doesn't really help your position... Hmmmm. Not sure where you're going with that.

 

Nevertheless, I'd stand by my comments above. That internal monologue does not fill you with confidence over, a., the talent, or b., the efficency of the Seanchan.

 

And besides, my post wasn't about talent at all. It was talking about how the Seanchan adapt to problems, the way they think about the outcome and move on. None of which, in the quote, was really all that exciting.

 

I'm not sure what led you to think I was posted about talent.

"I've been talking to Alivia about the Seanchan." [Rand] said. "They call their army the Ever Victorious Army for a reason. It's never lost a war. Battles, yes, but never a war. When they lose a battle they sit down and figure out what they did wrong, or what an enemy did right, and then they change what needs changing for them to win.

None of which is all that revolutionary, sorry.

 

Yes, they've never lost. Fantastic. My point is, that they haven't adapted to address the problems they've come across. There's been a lot of adaptation on the other side, but little by the Seanchan.

"Yes," he said, still pacing. He did not look at her, perhaps did not see her. It was to be hoped that he actually heard, as well. "Five men, all great captains. The Seanchan all do that. That's been their way for a thousand years. They change what they have to change, but they don't give up.

I'm sure you're aware, that the implication of that is that every Seanchan commander could have capacity to be a Great Captain. Because they all do it, right? Which is clearly a load of rubbish.

"You aren't

thinking straight. That was a good plan, in the beginning, but their general thinks fast. He spread out to blunt our attacks before we could fall on him spread out marching."

 

[PoD: A Time for Iron]

 

And thats just reactive. Since they they've dedicated themselves to considering the method of attack, and ways to address it. It would not work again--would not have even really worked then.

So one general reacts well. Reacts using his training. All of a sudden that means that all Seanchan generals all over the park will do as well as he did? I seem to recall he ended up dead with his forces in retreat.

They are. Karede shows that directly they are considering the issue of invading Illian, and how to face travelling forces. Just because they have not deployed it yet doesn't mean they've havn't been active.

That's it? They're considering invading Illian? They're considering how to deal with Travelling forces?

 

Ok, Illian's a big step. Fine.

 

But holding up their consideration of travellers ... well. That's a bit weak. They have to consider how to defeat Travellers. They have no choice. Any armed force would do the same. It doesn't make them an incredible military machine, sorry to say.

The fact that they were at war constantly is irrelevant--the way in which peace was made, the methodology employed to make it possible, and the current appreciation of that methodology IS relevant, and does make them, as Cadsuane and Rand point out, a society that as a function of normal procedure does exactly what the 'Great Captains' do that made them great.

Right. Which, as mentioned earlier, would imply that all Seanchan officers have the potential to be "Great Captains", which, as mentioned earlier, is complete rubbish.

 

If all Seanchan officers had the ability to be Great Captains, they'd have lost few skirmishes, and Rand probably would have died at Falme.

Which is exactly the point. An incompetant general would not hold a position of high authority amongst the Seanchan--the way they go about war makes that clear, and we see it in the field when Karede summarily kills an incompotent commander.

LOL. No way. The larger the armed force, the larger the hiding ground for incompetent officers. The German Army was WW2 was hardly incompetent, was it? I mean, come on, they'd reinvented warfare in the space of 20 years...

[Luckers]

No you didn't. You provided a quote showing a man thinking about the fact that he was getting pushed for input.

 

Which, in the reality of it, proves that the Seanchan leaders are thinking on their defeats and how address them. So, yes I did.

 

Right, and Karede, one of their best, is, talking about the way in which the Seanchan are dealing with the failure. None of which is particularily exciting.

 

Wow. They discussed what to do when they encountered Elayne's unravelling weave... Great.

 

See, right there, you admit that i provided a quote showing that.

 

What are you arguing against?

 

It has everything to do with it. Those in command are those who will deal with any failure. They're the ones who will take the battle to Rand, dealing with mistakes along the way.

 

Which relates to my point... how, precisely?

 

Aside from which you are wrong, as my quote proves that are not the only ones that are involved with dealing with mistakes and failures.

 

Once again, I believe the only one we have seen (while he deals with failure/a set back) is Galgan. He seems competent.

 

We know of Yulan's competence, and we witness Karede's first hand in PoD... i still don't see the relevance of this in addressing my points.

 

Right ... that's it? That's the learning from their mistakes? A bunch of lords and ladies asking questions (the answers to which the general himself admits will be used for anything concrete) and, presumably, other officers asking him.

 

Excuse me, but again, that doesn't seem all that wonderful.

 

Doesn't it? Cadsuane disagrees with you. So does Rand.

 

I really don't understand your point here. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

Its pretty clear--the Seanchan are thinking about how to proceed. Somewhat nessasary, i think, to the idea of success.

 

I honestly don't know how to cut it down more than that.

 

They're not adopting anything new, they're reverting to type, they've used airborne troops before and will do again. Yes, it's audacious, but that's about it. In the later conversation with Suroth, we see Galgan reacting to Ituralde, and later Mat. They're he's not "learning" at that stage, he's reacting.

 

What do you mean by 'anything new'? They've never used their to'raken to launch an assault against a channeling organisation as formidable as the White Tower from accross the continent. That seems to me to be new and innovative thinking.

 

Honestly, im confused--none of their current planning is a reversion to type. Clearly they are considering new methods of proceeding with their invasion as opposed to continuing on in the same manner irrelevant of the realities.

 

They paused, they're thinking. It's called being a general--you know, planning attacks. Studying the enemy and developing tactics that address their strengths, and protect your weaknesses.

 

You seem to be suggesting that because they've not discovered new military applications such as the crank they therefore arn't great captains--what has that to do with captaining? Mat did not invent those cranks either. Merely employed them tactically.

 

Right, so you posted something to show their military efficency ... When actually, it contains a few lines in which the general shows his irritation at the situation. Given that the quote doesn't really help your position... Hmmmm. Not sure where you're going with that.

 

Let me state it for you again then, and ill try to keep it simple. It shows their methods. Which are successful. Which speaks to their efficiency.

 

Nevertheless, I'd stand by my comments above. That internal monologue does not fill you with confidence over, a., the talent, or b., the efficency of the Seanchan.

 

Feel free to stand by your comments about the implications about their talent--i stated those comments before you, so i have no problem with you doing so.

 

But they definately speak to the efficiency of the Seanchan military. I indeed feel very confident of that. As does Karede himself, or need i requote that for you?

 

And besides, my post wasn't about talent at all. It was talking about how the Seanchan adapt to problems, the way they think about the outcome and move on. None of which, in the quote, was really all that exciting.

 

Well, since excitement is a subjective response, feel free to think that. Cadsuane and Rand clearly disagree with you. As do I myself.

 

Whether or not you are 'excited' by the concept, the concept is nevertheless there, and no matter how banal you find it, it is a very effective method of responding to military threats and failures. That is a fact. As such their efficiency and methodology is clear.

 

Which was the point.

 

None of which is all that revolutionary, sorry.

 

A society that as their normal method practices the same ideas that make the great captains great does not strike you as important?

 

Well, you might not find it 'revolutionary', or 'exciting', but your visceral response does not change the facts that that speaks about the capabilities of the Seanchan military.

 

Yes, they've never lost. Fantastic. My point is, that they haven't adapted to address the problems they've come across. There's been a lot of adaptation on the other side, but little by the Seanchan.

 

Well, you are absolutely wrong there--we witness them adapting. That's what that 'unexciting' internal dialogue of Karede's proves absolutely. They are discussing the realities of their losses and how to adapt to them.

 

And where has there been 'adaption' on the other side? They've been weaponizing new concepts, but the Seanchan havn't made any new discoveries. No technological breakthroughs for them to employ. How is that significant though? They've nevertheless been employing their old technologies to full effect in ways specifically adapted to each situation. THAT is rather the point is it not? We arn't talking about the successes of their research and development bureau, we are talking about the skills of their generals.

 

Is that it? Is that the basis for your argument? That they've discovered no new weapons whilst the Randlanders have? I'd point out that none of those discoveries were made by the generals that employed them, nor do their use imply skill with tactical adaption. Talmanes had the crossbow cranks just like mat did, doesn't mean he could have planned that campeign. And not having them doesn't mean mat couldn't have planned a campeign to achieve the same ends.

 

Technological innovation is not what we are discussing here, though it seems to be what you are discussing. Perhaps this is why you find all that thinking so unexciting--they have no flashy special effects to back it up.

 

I'm sure you're aware, that the implication of that is that every Seanchan commander could have capacity to be a Great Captain. Because they all do it, right? Which is clearly a load of rubbish.

 

Once the method is in place all it requires is intelligence--so yes, every Seanchan commander has the capacity to be a 'great captain'. What's more is that with that method as the normal and expected practice, only those that excel at it would gain rank--which we know to be fact as well, from Karede's pov in PoD.

 

Which is, my friend, what the Great Captains are on the Westland side of the ocean. The main difference being that in Westland these practices are so far out of the norm that when captains stumble accross them they are hailed as Great Captains, whereas in Seanchan that's considered merely a nessasary trait in a good commander.

 

So yes, that implication is not 'rubbish', and it is that implication exactly the sequence of quotes i provided shows. Stated succinctly;-

 

1. The Seanchan employ careful evaluation and discussion of defeats or failures before planning their reactions. As shown by Karede in KoD.

2. As a result of this method their army has never lost a war. As shown by Cadsuane and Rand.

3. That this is the same method that the Great Captains employ, which is why they are referred to as Great Captains, as shown by Cadsuane and Rand.

4. That those that rise to the heights amongst the Seanchan military are required to excel at employing these methods as shown by Karede in PoD.

 

The conclusion being that Seanchan high military officers are trained in, and excel at the same methods that make the 'Great Captains' great.

 

So one general reacts well. Reacts using his training. All of a sudden that means that all Seanchan generals all over the park will do as well as he did? I seem to recall he ended up dead with his forces in retreat.

 

Certainly not, but your again missing the point--the method is there. That training you seem to think dismisses the success he had is a part of the reality that points to the skill of the Seanchan generals.

 

That's it? They're considering invading Illian? They're considering how to deal with Travelling forces?

 

Yes, precisely. It's called thinking and planning, and its what makes a great general great. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

 

But holding up their consideration of travellers ... well. That's a bit weak. They have to consider how to defeat Travellers. They have no choice. Any armed force would do the same. It doesn't make them an incredible military machine, sorry to say.

 

Oh? Has Elaida? She knows both the Asha'men and the Rebels have the skill--indeed, Alviarin specifically brought up the possibility of Asha'men using travelling to assault the Tower. Have they made any plans to deal with that? Have they laid out contingencies, or paused to consider it?

 

But beyond that, why is that weak? That DOES precisely make them an incredible military machine. How can you not see that THINKING about about how to face ones enemies is the single greatest defining aspect of a general.

 

Right. Which, as mentioned earlier, would imply that all Seanchan officers have the potential to be "Great Captains", which, as mentioned earlier, is complete rubbish.

 

Which, again, your wrong about. Clearly wrong. All Seanchan officers have that training, which means they clearly do all have the potential to become Great Captains.

 

If all Seanchan officers had the ability to be Great Captains, they'd have lost few skirmishes, and Rand probably would have died at Falme.

 

How so, precisely? Skill as a general does not imply the magical ability to win, and we don't know that any of the Seanchan officers in play at Falme WERE skilled generals. How would even mat have acted to fight of the heroes, who could not be harmed?

 

Thats ignoring too that Rand never fought the Seanchan at Falme, but meh.

 

But no, seriously, what is it you're expecting? That this ability means they should have won every fight? Thats absurd. Bashere and the Great Captains can't do that either. No matter how skilled the general one cannot win every fight. Sometimes enemies have advantages that can't be opposed, say traveling or the horn. That is not what a great general is. A great general is someone who having lost that fight then sits and thinks about how to win the next time the enemy plays that card. How to negate their advantage, how to cover the weakness they exploited. That is what the Seanchan do, and that is what the Great Captains do too.

 

I mean honestly, need i requote Cadsuane and Rand's converastion--i thought them pretty clear on this issue.

 

LOL. No way. The larger the armed force, the larger the hiding ground for incompetent officers. The German Army was WW2 was hardly incompetent, was it? I mean, come on, they'd reinvented warfare in the space of 20 years...

 

Absolutely, but we arn't talking about average officers... we know there is incompetence there. We know its not tolerated when found, but it's there.

 

*shrug* im confused by that comment. It doesn't seem to relate to what i was saying.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Which, in the reality of it, proves that the Seanchan leaders are thinking on their defeats and how address them. So, yes I did.

So, around 2 lines of that quote backs up your point? The quote didn't work Luckers.

See, right there, you admit that i provided a quote showing that.

 

What are you arguing against?

You're stating that their approach to failure is really different from other peoples. Their approach to failure is straightforward ... They look at what happened and apply the lessons. Quite simple.

 

Yet, you appear to think that they are some sort of superhumans on this basis. I think it's quite a basic thing to do.

Which relates to my point... how, precisely?

 

Aside from which you are wrong, as my quote proves that are not the only ones that are involved with dealing with mistakes and failures.

Sorry, you can't see how it might be important that the "best" generals of the Seanchan address past failures? Really? Odd.

We know of Yulan's competence, and we witness Karede's first hand in PoD... i still don't see the relevance of this in addressing my points.

OK... Really simple here: Your arguement is essentially that only the Seanchan at present engage in analysis of past defeat and that therefore, as this is something only Great Captains do (according to Caddy) that they are brilliant.

 

My point is, and has been, that we don't actually know how good they are. As we have very few POVs. Simple.

Doesn't it? Cadsuane disagrees with you. So does Rand.

Because Caddy mentions the names of the great captains, this doesn't mean that all Seanchan commanders are great.

 

The fact that great captains take their time and study their mistakes does not mean that this is solely the preserve of great captains. This is what you seem to be implying. I think that's a jump too far. Surely any soldier or officer who has lost a battle, or indeed won one, would look back and see how he could improve.

 

But not according to you. Only the Seanchan do that.

Its pretty clear--the Seanchan are thinking about how to proceed. Somewhat nessasary, i think, to the idea of success.

 

I honestly don't know how to cut it down more than that.

Right. The Seanchan are thinking about how to proceed. Hmmm. That's a sign of greatness. You're right. You've convinced me.

 

Sorry, how does this make them generally brilliant?

What do you mean by 'anything new'? They've never used their to'raken to launch an assault against a channeling organisation as formidable as the White Tower from accross the continent. That seems to me to be new and innovative thinking.

Hmmmmm... so, during the entire history of Seanchan combat (you've pointed out that they've been at it for years) there's never been a long range aerial assault? Even so, doing something you do regularily on a massive scale is hardly innovative.

Honestly, im confused--none of their current planning is a reversion to type. Clearly they are considering new methods of proceeding with their invasion as opposed to continuing on in the same manner irrelevant of the realities.

Yet, their aerial forces are established. We hear about fists of the heavens quite early on. The idea of using raken in a campaign is commonplace. Yes, the scale is large, but scale doesn't mean innovation.

They paused, they're thinking. It's called being a general--you know, planning attacks. Studying the enemy and developing tactics that address their strengths, and protect your weaknesses.

Something that every general does. Great.

You seem to be suggesting that because they've not discovered new military applications such as the crank they therefore arn't great captains--what has that to do with captaining? Mat did not invent those cranks either. Merely employed them tactically.

Ahhh right. And what about the other examples? The artillery prototypes? The Legion of the Dragon. The Black Tower. etc. etc.

 

I wasn't talking about machines and weapons, I am talking about innovation. Where is the Seanchan innovation?

Let me state it for you again then, and ill try to keep it simple. It shows their methods. Which are successful. Which speaks to their efficiency.

Right. So we're slowly sliding around the great captain debate. Got it. The examples of their efficiency you've given so far aren't all that great, apologies.

Feel free to stand by your comments about the implications about their talent--i stated those comments before you, so i have no problem with you doing so.

And yet you're arguing away, odd, given that you seem to agree with me.

Well, since excitement is a subjective response, feel free to think that. Cadsuane and Rand clearly disagree with you. As do I myself.

Since you're repeating yourself, I'll do the same: Because Caddy mentions the names of the great captains, this doesn't mean that all Seanchan commanders are great.

 

The fact that great captains take their time and study their mistakes does not mean that this is solely the preserve of great captains. This is what you seem to be implying. I think that's a jump too far. Surely any soldier or officer who has lost a battle, or indeed won one, would look back and see how he could improve.

 

But not according to you. Only the Seanchan do that.

Whether or not you are 'excited' by the concept, the concept is nevertheless there, and no matter how banal you find it, it is a very effective method of responding to military threats and failures. That is a fact. As such their efficiency and methodology is clear.

 

Which was the point.

Yes, and my reply is, that any general who did not try to learn from his mistakes, would have a very short career. Note, any general.

 

Indeed, it's quite a common concept ... say, in education. You yourself will have been through it.

A society that as their normal method practices the same ideas that make the great captains great does not strike you as important?

See above.

Well, you are absolutely wrong there--we witness them adapting. That's what that 'unexciting' internal dialogue of Karede's proves absolutely. They are discussing the realities of their losses and how to adapt to them.

Again, see above. It's not "exciting", because I don't believe it's all that unique. Apologies. You're honestly telling me that no general or soldier, apart from the Great Captains, in the entire of Randland has sat down and thought "Light, that was a mess, how can I avoid that happening again?"?! Really?

And where has there been 'adaption' on the other side? They've been weaponizing new concepts, but the Seanchan havn't made any new discoveries. No technological breakthroughs for them to employ. How is that significant though?

Ahhh... I see you're focusing on the crossbow crank again. That was one of 3 or 4 things I believe. Address the others. They're significant.

They've nevertheless been employing their old technologies to full effect in ways specifically adapted to each situation. THAT is rather the point is it not? We arn't talking about the successes of their research and development bureau, we are talking about the skills of their generals.

Because reforming the Band of the Red Hand and the Legion of the Dragon, the formation of the Black Tower was all done by men in white coats and glasses? R&D yes, clearly. I think creating one of the best military formations in the world takes skill, no?

Is that it? Is that the basis for your argument? That they've discovered no new weapons whilst the Randlanders have? I'd point out that none of those discoveries were made by the generals that employed them, nor do their use imply skill with tactical adaption. Talmanes had the crossbow cranks just like mat did, doesn't mean he could have planned that campeign. And not having them doesn't mean mat couldn't have planned a campeign to achieve the same ends.

Ok. I'm not going to bother replying to this one. Save to say, you've latched on to one of the examples. That of the crossbow crank. Go back and read the post.

Technological innovation is not what we are discussing here, though it seems to be what you are discussing. Perhaps this is why you find all that thinking so unexciting--they have no flashy special effects to back it up.

No, it wasn't what I was discussing, merely what you assumed I was discussing, despite the fact that the crossbows were merely a part of it.

Once the method is in place all it requires is intelligence--so yes, every Seanchan commander has the capacity to be a 'great captain'. What's more is that with that method as the normal and expected practice, only those that excel at it would gain rank--which we know to be fact as well, from Karede's pov in PoD.

I'll have to complete this later, I don't have time now.