Forsaken

[Vassili]

I've never read the BWB and I don't know much about the Forsaken as an Order of channelers in the AoL. Now I thought that to be one of the "Chosen" you had to be exceptionally powerful and/or skilled, and you recieved various benefits including access to the TP and immortality. While it is hinted that there were more Forsaken than the 13 we meet in the series, I thought that the Forsaken even in the AoL only numbered 30 or less, and the 13 we know were only the ones who lived to see (and personally experience) the Bore being patched. Without any evidence, i assumed that the DO had many more channelers serving him, but the Forsaken were the elite. However someone said on another post that ALL df channelers were Forsaken in the AoL. Anyone know more about these devious hangons from a previous age?

 

On a related note, were all channelers even Aes Sedai in the AoL?

[Spirit1025]

The White Book is really your best resource for that kind of information. =) Borrow a copy, if you can. Personally, I find it worth the price to buy one, but I know not everyone would. Also, try the Library link at the top of the page here; I know there's a list of information on all the characters somewhere in there, which contains pretty much what the white book says.

 

Now I thought that to be one of the "Chosen" you had to be exceptionally powerful and/or skilled, and you recieved various benefits including access to the TP and immortality.

 

Yes, that's right as far as I know. I know they were promised immortality; whether or not that would be true unless the Dark One wins...I doubt it.

 

and the 13 we know were only the ones who lived to see (and personally experience) the Bore being patched.

 

Right again. These were the thirteen most powerful, they just happened to be in Shayol Ghul when it was sealed, thereby trapping them as well. The others that still remained outside would have been killed off afterwards, along with whatever Shadowspawn was hanging around.

 

Without any evidence, i assumed that the DO had many more channelers serving him, but the Forsaken were the elite.

 

Yes, they were called Dreadlords. I don't think we know how many there were, but I asume it was quite a few.

 

 

[Luckers]

I just answered this in another thread, but here it is again.

 

Chosen - Short for 'Those Chosen to Rule the World Forever'. This was what the Aes Sedai who joined the Dark One during the War of the Shadow called themselves.

 

Forsaken - This is what the rest of the Light called those Aes Sedai that joined the Dark One during the War of the Shadow.

 

Dreadlord - The name used by both the Light and the Shadow for the darkfriend channelers that fought in the Trolloc Wars. The name was created by the darkfriend channelers themselves, who as Dakeyras pointed out, did not with to overstep themselves. Later it was adopted by the Light.

 

The thirteen surviving Forsaken were one and all leaders of the Chosen in the War of the Shadow, but both they and those they led were called Chosen (or Forsaken by the Light).

 

So, to specifcally respond to your questions.

 

Now I thought that to be one of the "Chosen" you had to be exceptionally powerful and/or skilled, and you recieved various benefits including access to the TP and immortality.

 

No, any Aes Sedai that turned to the Shadow in the Age of Legends was named a Chosen. Supposedly they were all automatically made immortal, but the war didn't go on long enough for that to be tested, and certainly after the bore was sealed the Dark One let them age and die. As for access to the True Power, that was restricted to those that were the key leaders in the fight against the Shadow, which according to Moghedian in aCoS included only twenty-nine people accross the course of the war.

 

As a side note, we do not know that strength in the Power WAS a requirement to gain this level. All of the thirteen we currently know (with the possible exception of Asmodean) were quite strong, but no where is this directly stated, and it is possible that were Forsaken to prove themselves exemplary in some fashion they may too have been elevated to the level of gaining a Mark (the mark by which the Dark One acknowledged his leading Chosen).

 

and the 13 we know were only the ones who lived to see (and personally experience) the Bore being patched.

 

No. We know that twenty-nine gained the privledge to channel the True Power accross the course of the war and the Collapse (the period prior to the war), and that some died along the way (at the hands of the Light, and the treachery of their fellow Forsaken, and also quite commonly at the Dark One's hands). But we also know that there were some amongst their number still alive at the time the bore was sealed, just not present at Shayol Ghoul. They faced the same fate as any one else. The men went insane and the women were either hunted down by Latra Posae Decume, or died of the upheavels of the Breaking.

 

Without any evidence, i assumed that the DO had many more channelers serving him, but the Forsaken were the elite.

 

Yes, many hundreds of thousands. In the Age of Legends roughly 3% of the population had the ability to channeler, for the shadow to have been able to hold its own it would have needed many hundreds of thousands if not millions of their own channelers. Check out the Rand's Late Channeling thread, there is much more detail on this subject in the final pages of that thread.

 

However, that being said, those channelers were called Chosen (or Forsaken by the Light) just like the leading channelers.

 

 

 

As a finish note none of that comes from the BWB. The bit about the number of Chosen to have access to the TP comes from Crown of Swords in the scene where Moghedian first meets Moridin, and the rest comes from the QotW, a sequence of interviews with Robert Jordan (a link to which can be found at the top of the General Wheel page here under 'online resources').

 

 

[Kadere]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsaken_(Wheel_of_Time)

 

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

These are good links and sites for random information about WoT (especially encyclopaedia-wot). Check them out.

[Majsju]

As for access to the True Power, that was restricted to those that were the key leaders in the fight against the Shadow, which according to Moghedian in aCoS included only twenty-nine people accross the course of the war.

 

That is speculation, we do not know how and why the DO chose who to grant access to TP. We do know that Moghedien considered it a privilegium, but that is quite a difference from them being key leaders.

Also, Moghediens number is flawed, due to what we know of the requirements. Yes, the DO must grant permission, but using the TP is something that must be asked for, so there could have been dozens of Chosen who would have been given permission if they had just asked.

 

As a side note, we do not know that strength in the Power WAS a requirement to gain this level. All of the thirteen we currently know (with the possible exception of Asmodean) were quite strong, but no where is this directly stated, and it is possible that were Forsaken to prove themselves exemplary in some fashion they may too have been elevated to the level of gaining a Mark (the mark by which the Dark One acknowledged his leading Chosen).

 

RJ usas Asmo as the example here. He was not very strong, not a great general, but he was a good governor, and the shadow needed those for their conquered cities. I would guess that Mesana served a similar role, giving what we know about her doings in the war, with her "reprogramming" of children.

[Luckers]

That is speculation, we do not know how and why the DO chose who to grant access to TP. We do know that Moghedien considered it a privilegium, but that is quite a difference from them being key leaders.

 

I disagree. Moghedian's thoughts quite clearly express that he gave the skill as a privledge, thereby marking those that recieved it as his trusted servants. Given that, I'd have no doubt that they were key leaders amongst the Forsaken. Indeed I'd concider impossible for them to have recieved that privledge if they were not such high figures--and furthermore, even if they weren't, that recieving that privledge would mark their favour in the Dark One's eyes clearly, thereby making them key leaders.

 

I suppose perhaps if he intended them to serve as secret assasins... which seems a very intelligent use for an undetectable power like the True Power. If that were the case however I doubt Moghedian would know of them, and thus they wouldn't be included in her numbers. Still, i might agree with such an interpretation.

 

Also, Moghediens number is flawed, due to what we know of the requirements. Yes, the DO must grant permission, but using the TP is something that must be asked for, so there could have been dozens of Chosen who would have been given permission if they had just asked.

 

Well, no... Moghedian's number isn't flawed--she states the number that had been given that priveledge, not those that might have been. Beyond which even if what you suggest is true they clearly did not ask. This would be in support of my statements--if asking were a requirement and some did not feel they should ask, then clearly there was an expectation that only the greatest amongst them should ask.

 

Personally though I don't consider 'asking' to be particularily likely. Nothing in Moghedian's language suggests it, indeed her thoughts and comments suggest the exact opposite. Oh, we know that even after the Dark One has granted use of the True Power to you you must still ask for each use, but beyond that there is no evidence for, and evidence against what you suggest.

 

RJ usas Asmo as the example here. He was not very strong, not a great general, but he was a good governor, and the shadow needed those for their conquered cities. I would guess that Mesana served a similar role, giving what we know about her doings in the war, with her "reprogramming" of children.

 

Mmm, I agree, though I'd point out that Mesaana is as strong as Semirhage.

[Hybrid]

and the 13 we know were only the ones who lived to see (and personally experience) the Bore being patched.

 

Right again. These were the thirteen most powerful, they just happened to be in Shayol Ghul when it was sealed, thereby trapping them as well. The others that still remained outside would have been killed off afterwards, along with whatever Shadowspawn was hanging around.

 

These were thirteen of the most powerful, not the most powerful.  I believe RJ said somewhere (I'm terrible at finding these interview reports) that there were some who were just as powerful as these 13 who were not sealed into the Bore.  None of them, though, approached Ishamael, Aginor, or Lanfear.  However, it is likely that the 13 were the key players.'

Regarding the rest of the Chosen, the males went mad just as the other Aes Sedai did.  Either the DO was not free to give his protection, or he did not want to.  The females were all likely killed during the Breaking, since the war between the Light and the Shadow was still being fought even as the male Aes Sedai destroyed the world.

[Majsju]

I disagree. Moghedian's thoughts quite clearly express that he gave the skill as a privledge, thereby marking those that recieved it as his trusted servants. Given that, I'd have no doubt that they were key leaders amongst the Forsaken. Indeed I'd concider impossible for them to have recieved that privledge if they were not such high figures--and furthermore, even if they weren't, that recieving that privledge would mark their favour in the Dark One's eyes clearly, thereby making them key leaders.

 

Being given a privilege is not the same as being a key leader. The only ones that can really be said to have been key leaders are Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage and Sammael, since RJ named these six as the ones who always stayed at the top. If those granted access to TO had been such high figures, the number of Chosen who held a more permanent position at the very top would have been quite a bit higher.

 

One thing that is good to observe here is Moghediens attitude towards Moridin. She has just been severly punished by SH for screwing up, she is Mind trapped, and she knows she is certainly not in the DOs good book atm.

You would think that if the TP was something only granted to key leaders that held a particularily high position, she would be quite quite careful here. But no, she starts lecturing Moridin, and attempt to boss him around as if she held the superior position. Not until Moridin shows that he holds her cour'sovra does she step down.

Now, either Moghedien is suicidal at this point, or TP is not for "key leaders".

 

Mmm, I agree, though I'd point out that Mesaana is as strong as Semirhage.

 

Well, strength does not necessarily mean possessing suitable skills for the battlefield.

[Hybrid]

One thing that is good to observe here is Moghediens attitude towards Moridin. She has just been severly punished by SH for screwing up, she is Mind trapped, and she knows she is certainly not in the DOs good book atm.

You would think that if the TP was something only granted to key leaders that held a particularily high position, she would be quite quite careful here. But no, she starts lecturing Moridin, and attempt to boss him around as if she held the superior position. Not until Moridin shows that he holds her cour'sovra does she step down.

Now, either Moghedien is suicidal at this point, or TP is not for "key leaders".

 

I think Moghedien's reaction to Moridin was more because she thought he was a Chosen from the Third Age, not the Age of Legends.  So to him, she would be a demigod, a person from the legends.  She was counting on her identity to awe him so that she could advise/control him (get in his good graces).  It's the same reaction any Chosen has to anyone from the Third Age.  To her, he was just an ignorant child.  He had been granted a high position, but she was still the better for her experience and Age of Legends status.  Once he revealed the cour'sovra, the situation changed.

[Majsju]

So, only a "key leader" until someone bigger and meaner shows up? Heh, sounds an awful lot like how it worked for all the forsaken during the war...

[Vassili]

Where is it said that ALL channelers who served the DO in the AoL were counted amoung the Forsaken? They call themselves the "Chosen" not the, "i went to the meetings and I guess that means im in."

 

Going by Moggy's statement, I would say there were 29 Chosen and all other channelers were of lesser rank. Maybe they did call themselves Dreadlord, there is no reason the title couldn't have been created then, and then later used in the Trolloc Wars.

 

Also, does being one of the "Chosen" mean you are one of the Forsaken? Maybe our problem in defining them, is that Chosen and Forsaken are not synonyms.

[Luckers]

Being given a privilege is not the same as being a key leader. The only ones that can really be said to have been key leaders are Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage and Sammael, since RJ named these six as the ones who always stayed at the top. If those granted access to TO had been such high figures, the number of Chosen who held a more permanent position at the very top would have been quite a bit higher.

 

Key 'figure' then, if that assuages your sense of definition. I still don't see any of the Forsaken gaining that privledge without being on the top tier of Forsakendom. As for your point about maintaining a high position because of the True Power--I don't really see the logic in that. The Great Lord pushed at his Forsaken to struggle amongst themselves in order to gain power. Some rose, some fell--probably dying, but even if not i doubt they'd be continue to be given access to the True Power given as they'd proven how weak and useless they are. The others, of course, the Dark One killed.

 

I see no reason they would remain there, but i definately think you don't get this priveledge unless you were there. *shrug*

 

One thing that is good to observe here is Moghediens attitude towards Moridin. She has just been severly punished by SH for screwing up, she is Mind trapped, and she knows she is certainly not in the DOs good book atm.

You would think that if the TP was something only granted to key leaders that held a particularily high position, she would be quite quite careful here. But no, she starts lecturing Moridin, and attempt to boss him around as if she held the superior position. Not until Moridin shows that he holds her cour'sovra does she step down.

Now, either Moghedien is suicidal at this point, or TP is not for "key leaders".

 

Or she's an arrogant Age of Legender dismissing a person born from this age. The word is stupid, not suicidal. Besides, even in this she condescends to admit that his access makes him important.

 

Well, strength does not necessarily mean possessing suitable skills for the battlefield.

 

I agree... but who was talking about the battlefield? Semirhage never generaled a battlefield either. I was just pointing out that Mesaana's not all that weak.

 

Where is it said that ALL channelers who served the DO in the AoL were counted amoung the Forsaken? They call themselves the "Chosen" not the, "i went to the meetings and I guess that means im in."

 

Going by Moggy's statement, I would say there were 29 Chosen and all other channelers were of lesser rank. Maybe they did call themselves Dreadlord, there is no reason the title couldn't have been created then, and then later used in the Trolloc Wars.

 

Also, does being one of the "Chosen" mean you are one of the Forsaken? Maybe our problem in defining them, is that Chosen and Forsaken are not synonyms.

 

They are, and there are no problems defining them. The Chosen included every darkfriend channeler. By the Light they were named the Forsaken. One and all. Some amongst them had great power and authority, but they were all Forsaken, all Chosen. There was no lesser title. RJ stated this flatly.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

I suppose perhaps if he intended them to serve as secret assasins... which seems a very intelligent use for an undetectable power like the True Power. If that were the case however I doubt Moghedian would know of them, and thus they wouldn't be included in her numbers. Still, i might agree with such an interpretation.

 

is there a particular reason moggy wouldn't be aware of assasins?  she WAS head of the shadow's spy network

[Luckers]

Mainly because the Dark One doesn't have a history of running those sort of things by people who arn't directly involved.

 

And because she probably wouldn't have called it a privledge if such existed and she knew.

 

So its either they do, and she doesn't, or they don't. At least to my mind. I'm guessing the later, but meh.

[Hybrid]

Where is it said that ALL channelers who served the DO in the AoL were counted amoung the Forsaken? They call themselves the "Chosen" not the, "i went to the meetings and I guess that means im in."

 

Going by Moggy's statement, I would say there were 29 Chosen and all other channelers were of lesser rank. Maybe they did call themselves Dreadlord, there is no reason the title couldn't have been created then, and then later used in the Trolloc Wars.

 

Also, does being one of the "Chosen" mean you are one of the Forsaken? Maybe our problem in defining them, is that Chosen and Forsaken are not synonyms.

 

Well, the Forsaken are just what they are called - those Aes Sedai that forsake the Light for the Shadow.  There is no status or prestige associated with the title.  It is simply a term to name a group of people.

The Chosen is the name the Forsaken chose to call themselves.  Again, the name is the definition of a group of people, not a rank.

[Mr Ares]

For anyone still struggling with the Forsaken/Chosen/Dreadlord distinction, read this:

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

http://wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

[Vassili]

well that about settles it.

 

ty for the quote

[Majsju]

Key 'figure' then, if that assuages your sense of definition. I still don't see any of the Forsaken gaining that privledge without being on the top tier of Forsakendom. As for your point about maintaining a high position because of the True Power--I don't really see the logic in that. The Great Lord pushed at his Forsaken to struggle amongst themselves in order to gain power. Some rose, some fell--probably dying, but even if not i doubt they'd be continue to be given access to the True Power given as they'd proven how weak and useless they are. The others, of course, the Dark One killed.

 

I see no reason they would remain there, but i definately think you don't get this priveledge unless you were there. *shrug*

 

"Key figure" certainly works a lot better than "leader", since it does allow for a great deal of more credible interpretations. For example, someone who works deep undercover coould certainly have a great benefit from access to a power that can not be detected by those pesky pro-Lighters. But just because someone is good at something like that does not mean they are good at leadership, and RJ has said enough about how one gained ranks to give us a pretty good idea what abilities that the DO looked for.

And it is good to pay attention to what RJ said about "our" forsaken, they were part of the DOs General Staff. Now, attaching some kind of "key leadership" to those granted access to TP would pretty much make them the Über General Staff, which makes about...zero sense.

 

Another thing that is worth thinking about is the number 29. There were thousands of forsaken around, so why so few? Giving the forsaken that extra edge could have meant victory much sooner. It is not like the DO would have to fear betrayal, since the acess to TP could be cut immidiatly if someoe does something they should not do.

The most plausible explanation I can think of is that since TP is drawn directly from the DO, allowing people to use it decreases the DOs own power. If that is true, it makes a lot more sense that access should be granted to those who really really need it. And you do not need to throw TP around just to be a leader. But an undercover agent? An assassin? A general during a crucial battle? Hell yeah.

 

Or she's an arrogant Age of Legender dismissing a person born from this age. The word is stupid, not suicidal. Besides, even in this she condescends to admit that his access makes him important.

 

Important, yes. But certainly not a "key leader", since she continues to try to boss him around. If there had been such a significance about access to the TP that you want it to be, it should not matter that it is a Third Age guy, especially not since Moghedien at that time is not quite on the DOs Most Appreciated list...

And stupid or not, the fact that Moghedien made it to the General Staff means that she does have a pretty good idea about how the politics among the high ranking forsaken works.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Or she's an arrogant Age of Legender dismissing a person born from this age. The word is stupid, not suicidal. Besides, even in this she condescends to admit that his access makes him important.

 

Important, yes. But certainly not a "key leader", since she continues to try to boss him around. If there had been such a significance about access to the TP that you want it to be, it should not matter that it is a Third Age guy, especially not since Moghedien at that time is not quite on the DOs Most Appreciated list...

And stupid or not, the fact that Moghedien made it to the General Staff means that she does have a pretty good idea about how the politics among the high ranking forsaken works.

 

I disagree.  The Forsaken have constantly looked down upon Third Agers as ignorant barbarians.  Also, from Moghedien's view, he had no knowledge of her failures.  Thus, to him, she would still be a near mythical and powerful figure that he would do well to heed.  And she might be able to make up for her drop in status by controlling him.  However, she did not take into account two things that considerably changed the situation.  One, he was Ishamael Recycled.  Two, he had her cour'sovra.  Otherwise, she probably would have been able to get herself a position as his advisor/manipulator, giving her power over the rest of the Forsaken.

[Majsju]

 

I disagree.  The Forsaken have constantly looked down upon Third Agers as ignorant barbarians.  Also, from Moghedien's view, he had no knowledge of her failures.  Thus, to him, she would still be a near mythical and powerful figure that he would do well to heed.  And she might be able to make up for her drop in status by controlling him.  However, she did not take into account two things that considerably changed the situation.  One, he was Ishamael Recycled.  Two, he had her cour'sovra.  Otherwise, she probably would have been able to get herself a position as his advisor/manipulator, giving her power over the rest of the Forsaken.

 

Now, here is when the status of being granted access to TP becomes important.

IF access to TP had meant being automatically a "key leader/figure" that held some kind of extra authority, that authority would come directly from the DO. No matter what prejudices she holds against third Age channelers would immidiatly be irrelevant the moment she saw the Saa, because ignoring Moridins authority would mean disobeying the DO.

But we do not even get a little "Uh oh" from her POV. Not even the slightest bit of hesitation about how to deal with Moridin. Now, even if there had been some kind of authority coming with using the TP, and even if her AOL arrogance had gotten the better of her, we should have seen at least a hint of deciding what to do. Especially since we are talking about the woman whose most significant trait is cowardice.

 

If however access to TP is nothing more than a privilege in itself, then she is in a perfectly acceptable position to attempt to boss him around.

[Valinthros]

Now, here is when the status of being granted access to TP becomes important.

IF access to TP had meant being automatically a "key leader/figure" that held some kind of extra authority, that authority would come directly from the DO. No matter what prejudices she holds against third Age channelers would immidiatly be irrelevant the moment she saw the Saa, because ignoring Moridins authority would mean disobeying the DO.

But we do not even get a little "Uh oh" from her POV. Not even the slightest bit of hesitation about how to deal with Moridin. Now, even if there had been some kind of authority coming with using the TP, and even if her AOL arrogance had gotten the better of her, we should have seen at least a hint of deciding what to do. Especially since we are talking about the woman whose most significant trait is cowardice.

 

If however access to TP is nothing more than a privilege in itself, then she is in a perfectly acceptable position to attempt to boss him around.

 

You're missing something here.  She notes the significance of him being able to channel the TP.  However, you should consider that as a Chosen herself, Moggy very likely has been allowed access to the TS in the past.  Which means, she wouldnt be nearly as intimidated by this person just by TP status alone.  She needed more 'convincing'.  To solidify your point Maj, you'll need to provide more information from someone who hasnt been deemed chosen, seeing someone who can weild the TP.  Even so, you still wouldnt be able to sustain a solid arguement, as the TP is practically unknown to all but a select few as far as we know.  This goes both ways.  I'd tend to agree that only important figures would be granted access to the TP, however I couldnt hold that up, because it hasnt been stated in black and white.  "Only important, key personell on team DO had been granted access to the True Power."  I believe that to be true, however, I'll be the first to say it, I lack proof.  Deduction from the Moggy POV, depending on the angle, sure.  But no QoD from RJ on it.  Did anyone even ask that question?

[Majsju]

You're missing something here.  She notes the significance of him being able to channel the TP.  However, you should consider that as a Chosen herself, Moggy very likely has been allowed access to the TS in the past.  Which means, she wouldnt be nearly as intimidated by this person just by TP status alone.  She needed more 'convincing'.  To solidify your point Maj, you'll need to provide more information from someone who hasnt been deemed chosen, seeing someone who can weild the TP.  Even so, you still wouldnt be able to sustain a solid arguement, as the TP is practically unknown to all but a select few as far as we know.  This goes both ways.  I'd tend to agree that only important figures would be granted access to the TP, however I couldnt hold that up, because it hasnt been stated in black and white.  "Only important, key personell on team DO had been granted access to the True Power."  I believe that to be true, however, I'll be the first to say it, I lack proof.  Deduction from the Moggy POV, depending on the angle, sure.  But no QoD from RJ on it.  Did anyone even ask that question?

 

I am not missing anything. She does notice a significance, but certainly not the kind of significance we should see here. She expresses nothing other than surprise that the DO has allowed a Third Ager that particular honour. Again, not a hint of even considering that she might just have to defer to him.

And that Moghedien is a Chosen is certainly not a hint that she might have been granted access to TP herself, since every single channeler fighting for the shadow was a Chosen. And even if she had been, her current status is quite less than it used to be. After all, she has just been Mindtrapped, and then thouroughly raped by SH. Not exactly the kind of treatment that says "Ok, all is forgiven, go back to your former position again."

 

And I can definitly agree that only important Chosen were allowed access to TP. But that is far from the same thing as "key leaders". Very far from.

 

And I would recommend reading the entire thread, and not only the last post or so, since there are other pieces of the puzzle than Moghedien out there.

 

[Hybrid]

Well, just because he's a key leader doesn't mean that he's suddenly the omnipotent and omniscient will of the Dark One.  As I pointed out earlier, Moghedien probably didn't expect him to know of her treatment.  The act she put on was the "experienced mentor showing the new guy the ropes."  And I'm pretty sure that she did have access to the True Power once, because of her position as spymaster for the Dark One.  Of course, that's no substitute for hard evidence.

[Luckers]

"Key figure" certainly works a lot better than "leader", since it does allow for a great deal of more credible interpretations. For example, someone who works deep undercover coould certainly have a great benefit from access to a power that can not be detected by those pesky pro-Lighters. But just because someone is good at something like that does not mean they are good at leadership, and RJ has said enough about how one gained ranks to give us a pretty good idea what abilities that the DO looked for.

 

I don't see undercover people being included in those Moghedian listed, as i've stated before. Those she listed i reguard to hold authoratative and recognized positions in the shadow. Again for the prestated reasons.

 

Which is not to say i don't see undercover people being given that power, but again i've stated that before too.

 

And it is good to pay attention to what RJ said about "our" forsaken, they were part of the DOs General Staff. Now, attaching some kind of "key leadership" to those granted access to TP would pretty much make them the Über General Staff, which makes about...zero sense.

 

Um, no, it would make them members of that general staff--of which we know there were others than the thirteen anyway. Some of which died along the way, and some of which simply weren't present at the sealing of the bore.

 

That would be the point im making really. To gain access to the true power you have to be a part of this 'general staff'. With the posible exceptions of those using the True Power for undercover purposes which I think to be seperate and not included in Moghedian's comments for the reasons previously stated.

 

Another thing that is worth thinking about is the number 29. There were thousands of forsaken around, so why so few? Giving the forsaken that extra edge could have meant victory much sooner. It is not like the DO would have to fear betrayal, since the acess to TP could be cut immidiatly if someoe does something they should not do.

The most plausible explanation I can think of is that since TP is drawn directly from the DO, allowing people to use it decreases the DOs own power. If that is true, it makes a lot more sense that access should be granted to those who really really need it. And you do not need to throw TP around just to be a leader. But an undercover agent? An assassin? A general during a crucial battle? Hell yeah.

 

Well, again i definately think that it would have been given to undercover opperative and assasins, but that they wouldn't have been numbered in Moghedian's 29. Beyond that, yes the TP would have been given solely to his most trusted. The leaders.

 

Important, yes. But certainly not a "key leader", since she continues to try to boss him around. If there had been such a significance about access to the TP that you want it to be, it should not matter that it is a Third Age guy, especially not since Moghedien at that time is not quite on the DOs Most Appreciated list...

And stupid or not, the fact that Moghedien made it to the General Staff means that she does have a pretty good idea about how the politics among the high ranking forsaken works.

 

I disagree with your logic there, which brings us to an impasse. I definately see Moghedian attempting to bully about a third ager inspite of his access to the True Power and the clear implications of his high standing. It's simple human nature.

 

IF access to TP had meant being automatically a "key leader/figure" that held some kind of extra authority, that authority would come directly from the DO. No matter what prejudices she holds against third Age channelers would immidiatly be irrelevant the moment she saw the Saa, because ignoring Moridins authority would mean disobeying the DO.

 

Not so, because you have the sequence backwards. The gifting of the use of the True Power does not mean automatically become a leader of the Forsaken, rather becoming a leader of the forsaken puts you in a position to be given access to the True Power.

 

That Moridin was given access to her merely means that of the pathetic children the Third Age puts forward, he is up the top. As a Forsaken of the Second Age she has good reason to talk down to him.

 

There are always degrees in authority.

 

And I can definitly agree that only important Chosen were allowed access to TP. But that is far from the same thing as "key leaders". Very far from.

 

If the distinction helps you sleep at night. Myself, the difference between 'key leaders' and the Chosen who have the greatest importance amongst the Chosen is... well, not a difference.

 

And I would recommend reading the entire thread, and not only the last post or so, since there are other pieces of the puzzle than Moghedien out there.

 

Funny you should say that Maj, given your comments on undercover opperatives and assasins... it was almost as if you thought you were raising a new point rather then one already existing in this thread.

[Valinthros]

I am not missing anything. She does notice a significance, but certainly not the kind of significance we should see here. She expresses nothing other than surprise that the DO has allowed a Third Ager that particular honour. Again, not a hint of even considering that she might just have to defer to him.

 

If you arent missing it, you seem to be choosing to ingnore it.  ALL AOL forsaken hold ALL 3rd age channelers in contempt.  Words like children, buffoons, etc have been used in POV's to describe this feeling.  Their whole mindset is built around undermining those above or below them.  It's the same way other chosen react to Demandred before being put into their place, even though this is different because of her specific circumstances, for years that behavior has been inbred into them.  To expand on that, none of 'the 13 most powerful forsaken' would have made it so far by taking things at face value.  Backing up to what has been stated before, her reaction was not colored by his status in a significant way because of how she percieved him as being a 3rd ager.  So it just makes sense that her first reaction, in spite of his TP status, she reacted the way she did.  You can continue to ignore that if you want to...  *shrug*

 

And that Moghedien is a Chosen is certainly not a hint that she might have been granted access to TP herself, since every single channeler fighting for the shadow was a Chosen. And even if she had been, her current status is quite less than it used to be. After all, she has just been Mindtrapped, and then thouroughly raped by SH. Not exactly the kind of treatment that says "Ok, all is forgiven, go back to your former position again."

 

She was treated quite roughly, that much I agree with you on.  You ever hear of an evil character sent to other lesser evil characters when they've been punnished or failed?  What do they normally do in their twisted mindset?  They use them as scapegoats.  That's how I took her treatment of Morridin in the beginning.  Just got yer hand smacked, it'd feel satisfying to do the same to someone else.  I know, what she recieved is much more than a hand smack.  What does she normally deal out though?  Much more than a hand smack.  ;)

 

And I can definitly agree that only important Chosen were allowed access to TP. But that is far from the same thing as "key leaders". Very far from.

I think Luckers adressed this perfectly.

 

And I would recommend reading the entire thread, and not only the last post or so, since there are other pieces of the puzzle than Moghedien out there.

 

I never post anything without reading what's been posted before.  It's ignorant.  Reread my argument.  I didnt state that I could prove you wrong, indeed, I agree that you cant _prove_ it either way.  I stated what I believed in, and what I thought didnt sit right in this thread.  I read all of it.  If points are already adressed to my satisfaction I dont bring them up, I consider them resolved.  ;)