The Horn of Valere

[Tigara]

My question is...what is it? It is a ter'angreal? Is it made with the Power? Did it exist before the AoL, or made during? It has Old Tongue inscriptions on it, so that would have some limits on the timeframe. Did the AoLers speak Old Tongue?

 

And it's said that there are a hundred(s) of people bound to it. We never hear of more than a half-dozen. Who are the others?

[Darth_Andrea]

All valad questions that I have not a single answer for.

 

 

LUCKERS HELP!!!!

 

Luckers knows almost everything :D

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Yes they spoke the Old Tongue in the Age of Legends. The Horn of Valere was ancient even then, it's powers thought a myth. It was lost in the confusion of the collapse and wasn't recovered until after the Strike at Shayol Ghul. I don't believe it is known who made it.

[Roxinos]

My question is...what is it? It is a ter'angreal? Is it made with the Power?

 

We don't know.

 

Did it exist before the AoL, or made during?

 

It existed before.

 

It has Old Tongue inscriptions on it, so that would have some limits on the timeframe.

 

Not necessarily, those could have been added later.

 

Did the AoLers speak Old Tongue?

 

Yep.

 

And it's said that there are a hundred(s) of people bound to it.

 

Where's that said?

[Majsju]

It is a ter'angreal? Is it made with the Power?

 

Probably not, since it was made before AOL, ie in an Age where channeling was not possible.

 

And it's said that there are a hundred(s) of people bound to it. We never hear of more than a half-dozen. Who are the others?

 

Heroes like those we have heard of, but who will have no impact on the story other than to be there when the Horn is sounded, so going into any detail about them would just be a waste of space.

[Roxinos]

Probably not, since it was made before AOL, ie in an Age where channeling was not possible.

 

I vaguely recall one argument stating that the AoL and the Third Age are in the same Age. But I never believed that.

 

However, wasn't the First Age sparked by the first person learning to channel? Or was that the Second Age/Age of Legends?

[RAND AL THOR]

This is such a wonderful Q. I don't think any of us considered the nature of the Horn. It seems like one of the odd unexplained bits in WoT along with stuff like Mashadar, Min's viewings etc...

[Majsju]

Probably not, since it was made before AOL, ie in an Age where channeling was not possible.

 

I vaguely recall one argument stating that the AoL and the Third Age are in the same Age. But I never believed that.

 

However, wasn't the First Age sparked by the first person learning to channel? Or was that the Second Age/Age of Legends?

 

The shift from the First Age to the Age of Legends was the appearance of the ability to channel.

[Luckers]

Mmm. My belief is that the horn, like the Portal Stones, were made during a transitionary period between the First and Second Ages (i.e. the Age of Legends). We know there are periods of time that belong to no Age--the Breaking of the World lasted over 300 years and belongs to neither.

 

What we know is this. The First Age (our Age) ended with appearence of the ability to channel. Between then a sequence of things happened.

 

1. All traces of our world were destroyed except for minor remnants like the mercades symbol and stories. Our cities, nations, cultures and religions got wiped out.

2. The world attained a single language and cultural base.

3. Races such as the Ogier and the Nym appeared.

4. Channelers--whose appearence ended out age--came to swear themselves as servants of all, and were further served by a race of people sworn to peace even in battle (in a time, mind you, that knew no war).

 

My conclusion is this--Something destroyed our world, and i'd guess that to be a war with channelers. It is possible that something else happened--some form of cataclysm--but the formation of the Aiel; dedicated to peace in battle in an Age when war was unknown, combined with their service to the Aes Sedai suggests to me that this was formed through a war that had devastating effects.

 

My guess is that the Horn was created during that war. We know it had been used before, but that it was lost before the Age of Legends came about. Whilst it has certain epic connotations in current times we know that it can be used as a simple weapon of war irrespective of who the enemy is, and who sounds it. Specifically its nature seems to involve a thinning of the barriers between this world and the dream world--hence the peculiar reality that resulted in tGH, which does seem similar to the nature of the portal stones, which were created at around that time by 'those that knew the numbers of chaos'.

 

From there i'd say that the war ravaged the planet--this fits with the destruction of all the cities and nations. The majority of the human race had to die in order for what remained to come together in a single culture. Globalisation doesn't allow for the sort of homoginisation, only  decimating the populace and forcing what remained to work together in order to survive. Perhaps the enviroment became toxic.

 

As a result people were indeed forced to worked together, and that shows in the formation of the culture that came from it--social prestige through service to the society--that sort of system only comes about as a result of people working together to deal with an external threat. My guess is that it was around this time that the Portal Stones were made--the world was virtualy inhospitable so people were looking to flee. Close parallel worlds obviously held not support since they'd be experiencing the same devastation, and weaker ones couldn'y support life. At this time humanity found the worlds holding both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and the Ogier.

 

The Ogier came here--my guess is to help rejuvinate the ecosystem, to which their gifts are uniquely pointed. I'm guessing that the Aes Sedai attempted to aid in that, first by giving humans the Ogier ability in the form of the Voice, then by creating living ter'angreal, living embodiements of that ability in the form of the Nym.

 

In time the world began to heal, the remnants of humanity spread and formed a single homogenous culture based on service to the society as a whole.

[Roxinos]

We know there are periods of time that belong to no Age--the Breaking of the World lasted over 300 years and belongs to neither.

 

I'm curious as to what makes you say that. Not that I'm particularly denying it, I'd just like to hear the logic behind it.

[Luckers]

Umm that the Breaking of the World went for 300 years and belonged to neither. The Age of Legends is defined to end with the sealing of the bore, and the Third Age is defined to begin with the start of the AB Callender.

[Thorum]

There are spokes in the wheel...

[Roxinos]

Umm that the Breaking of the World went for 300 years and belonged to neither. The Age of Legends is defined to end with the sealing of the bore, and the Third Age is defined to begin with the start of the AB Callender.

 

Alright, where is it defined?

[Luckers]

In the speech of the characters. Remember that the ages are conceptual realities--common social description is their singular defining aspect.

[Roxinos]

Common social description does not specifically outlaw the Breaking of the World as being part of the Second Age or of the Third Age, nor does it necessarily outlaw it from being a separate time period outside of the Ages.

 

However, the Wheel of Time is a persistent metaphor and it is described as having seven spokes relating to the seven Ages. Do you believe it conceivable that such a measurement would be possible? Considering the obliteration of at least one entire culture (ours) and the formation of new ones with only scraps of information and zero understanding, do you really believe the knowledge of the metaphor would be passed along through all of the devastation which must occur? Doubtful. But that puts the whole concept of Ages at risk. At the very least, it puts the concept of the seven Ages at risk, completely voiding any reason to differentiate between one Age and another. There could be a vast number of Ages before the "Wheel" turns and recycles the storyline.

 

When you define the differentiation of the Ages as nothing more than common social descriptions and conceptual realities, you breakdown and reasoning which allows you to differentiate the Ages themselves from one another and any events which may have occurred in-between.

[Luckers]

Common social description does not specifically outlaw the Breaking of the World as being part of the Second Age or of the Third Age, nor does it necessarily outlaw it from being a separate time period outside of the Ages.

 

It does actually. The Age of Legends is described to have ended with the drilling of the Bore, the Third age is described to have begun with the formation of the After Breaking Calender. Common social descriptions prescribing the understanding of ages.

 

However, the Wheel of Time is a persistent metaphor and it is described as having seven spokes relating to the seven Ages. Do you believe it conceivable that such a measurement would be possible? Considering the obliteration of at least one entire culture (ours) and the formation of new ones with only scraps of information and zero understanding, do you really believe the knowledge of the metaphor would be passed along through all of the devastation which must occur? Doubtful. But that puts the whole concept of Ages at risk. At the very least, it puts the concept of the seven Ages at risk, completely voiding any reason to differentiate between one Age and another. There could be a vast number of Ages before the "Wheel" turns and recycles the storyline.

 

Actually metaphors more commonly survive cactaclysms than anything else--not that that is really relevant to this--we know the understanding of ages survived, and we know what people used to prescribe them. Certainly its possible for an infinate number of ages--possible, and completely irrelevant. The current understanding is all that is important, since the distinctions spoken are uttered by people of the current understanding.

 

 

[Roxinos]

It does actually. The Age of Legends is described to have ended with the drilling of the Bore, the Third age is described to have begun with the formation of the After Breaking Calender. Common social descriptions prescribing the understanding of ages.

 

Again, I don't recall those specifications. However, I am not denying that they may be part of the common social description. What I'm calling into question is detailed into my other paragraph. The use of the common social description when talking about a greater timeline of events.

 

Certainly its possible for an infinate number of ages--possible, and completely irrelevant.

 

It is not irrelevant. It is the crux of my argument. Though, perhaps in your eyes that makes my entire argument irrelevant. :P

 

My argument is that if the specific number of Ages can be called into question, and it is conceivable that more than the simple seven Ages exist within the cyclical timeline, then the socially prescribed explanation for the cyclical nature of the timeline through the use of a metaphor like the Wheel of Time is called into question as being valid.

 

If you are to define certain events and certain time periods within a structure which is commonly accepted, the Wheel with seven spokes representing seven Ages, and yet that commonly accepted structure can be called into question, then the definitions of events and where they lie within the structure must also be called into question.

 

However, if you accept the socially accepted description as more than metaphor which withstands Ages, then you can rightly apply events into that timeline of seven Ages.

 

Moreover, one must ask oneself, why seven? Sure, seven is a lucky number in our culture, but if you're going beyond our culture, and you're assuming more than just the writer's prerogative influenced by social clichés, then seven seems pretty damned specific for a metaphor passed through the Ages.

 

But that last paragraph was just me rambling. So you can ignore it if you want.

 

Hell, I'm not even sure I follow my logic.

[Luckers]

My argument is that if the specific number of Ages can be called into question, and it is conceivable that more than the simple seven Ages exist within the cyclical timeline, then the socially prescribed explanation for the cyclical nature of the timeline through the use of a metaphor like the Wheel of Time is called into question as being valid.

 

Certainly--but again, that is irrelevant to this. The metaphor of the wheel and function of the ages are only important in establishing the timeline RJ spoke of--that the horn and the portal stones were created before the Age of Legends, yet that the First Age, our Age, ended with the appearence of channeling--hence the existence of a blank period between the two ages provides explanation.

 

The possible existence of ages prior to the First Age don't have any baring on that--We know for a fact that our Age preceeded the Age of Legends, followed by the Third Age--and that is the scope of the timescape that my comments address.

 

I understand what your suggesting--and myself, i believe it comes closer to the concept of the a kalpass--spiral time, as opposed to cyclical. An ongoing sequence of circles of events that have the same basic progression and yet include and are altered by previous ages. But in the scope of my comments that doesn't come into play because we have solid information on the flow of the past two ages.

[RAND AL THOR]

IMO:

 

I don't think it is possible to clearly define a border between ages. You can't say, 'Ah, today is the last day of this age. Tomorrow begins the next!"

 

It is more like a gradual trend and a vague period during which many important events occur may be considered as the period os transition from one age of the next.

 

 

[Angel of Death]

Probably not, since it was made before AOL, ie in an Age where channeling was not possible.

 

I vaguely recall one argument stating that the AoL and the Third Age are in the same Age. But I never believed that.

 

However, wasn't the First Age sparked by the first person learning to channel? Or was that the Second Age/Age of Legends?

 

The shift from the First Age to the Age of Legends was the appearance of the ability to channel.

 

Indeed. I believe (as do many others) that the first age is our age. All we really know about it is that is was a time of war and suffering. That pretty much is us.

[Thorum]

We also know it's the FIRST age. Which would make sense, considering all ages are not as long: the reason it'ld be called the first age would be Big Bang and evolution.

 

The strangest of all is that this could work with what we today know of physics. The wheel of time is a fantasy world, but it COULD BE TRUE. That's one of the exciting things about it.

[Darth_Andrea]

*Scratches her head and wonders how this devolved into a argument about when ages begin*

 

From the way I under stand things, from what I have read of RJ's comments on the subject. As well as the interview I have heard thats on ALL the WoT Audio books. Our age is the 1st age, The AoL is the second Age and Rands time is the 3rd age. Our age ends with a nuclear war, after which the Ogier come and help rebild and restore the world to habibility and Human's discover the One Power, and with the discoverery and learning to Control the One Power the 2nd age or Age Of Legends begins. If thats wrong please correct me.

 

Now give all that we must assume that durring the end of the 1st age, our time, that all knowlage of previous history was lost to a major extend hence it's identification as the 1st age. Humans count time from the beginings of recorded history. And if that history is lost or completly forgotten it dosen't count.

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Brand new member to the forum.  Very inexperienced with forums in general.  But... not sure you can delineate between ages with such specificity.  Didn't Ishy make reference to hundreds if not thousands of showdowns between the creator's champion and the DO's champion in the prologue to EOW.  I'm also thinking of the whole concept of the wheel, each spoke represents an Age, and the wheel is constantly turning.  I'm also thinking about the conversation between Tom & Elayne on the Seafolk ship (to Tanchico?) where he refer's to the difficulty specifying the end of an Age. 

 

BACK TO THE THREAD:  I believe in the EOW and TGH there are many references to the horn's ability to call the 100 companions?

[Razor]

I always wondered how if Hawkwing states he and Lews Therrin have answered the call of the Horn countless times, with some following the Dragon banner and some not, and the Horn and banner have been hidden the whole third age, then how could thie above timeline of only 3 ages be correct.

[Avery]

I always wondered how if Hawkwing states he and Lews Therrin have answered the call of the Horn countless times, with some following the Dragon banner and some not, and the Horn and banner have been hidden the whole third age, then how could thie above timeline of only 3 ages be correct.

 

The Horn is older than the First Age.